<bedeho>
lmatteis: #webtorrent and #ipfs has a bunch of people who are quite knowledgable about that sort of stuff, they may be able to help you
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<Adlai>
Luke-Jr's comment in #bitcoin-dev makes me wonder: does bitcoin's game-theoretic security model (which afaik hasn't yet been formalized) rely upon no single actor being able to devalue the currency by shorting?
<Taek>
Adlai: I don't feel confident about analysis, but
<Taek>
shorting is a market
<Taek>
if you are able to short Bitcoin, that means that someone is selling you that short
<Taek>
and if you crash the market, you are effectively taking money from them
<Taek>
so if it becomes known that someone is buying massive amounts of short volume on Bitcoin
<Taek>
people are going to get suspicious
<Taek>
that's going to hinder your ability to abuse shorting to acquire enough economic power to launch a 51% attack
* Taek
waves hands furiously
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<Adlai>
the action in question is that of a stakeholder selling 20mb-block-bitcoin for 1mb-block-bitcoin, to "vote with his money" for greater investment of infrastructure towards securing his preferred chain
<Adlai>
who is working on (or knows of draft versions of) a formal description of the game-theoretic model?
<Taek>
if a significant number of people are split between 20mb-coin and 1mb-coin, it'll be a disaster even if both chains are secure
<Taek>
it doesn't seem that different to me from 'voting with your money' with regards to altcoins though
<Adlai>
the same argument could be made about any large holder in a liquid cryptocurrency; and by that argument, the "one dollar, one vote" election has chosen bitcoin
<Taek>
I would agree with that
* Adlai
is searching for a more nuanced/precise statement than "bitcoin needs to be valuable to be useful"
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<gavinandresen>
Taek: I mentioned “the goldfinger attack” (profit by making a massive short bet) to some insanely smart people at MIT, including a couple of economists. Their question was the same as mine: why would it work in the Bitcoin world, if it doesn’t work in stock markets or financial markets?
<Taek>
I agree, but one potential answer is that stock markets are regulated
<Taek>
IE you can't do inside trading
<Taek>
that might change the mechanics substantially
<gavinandresen>
Taek: … and bitcoin markets are regulated, because they intersect the banking system.
<zooko>
kanzure: thanks! I've read that book, it was a good one.
<zooko>
Taek: were you serious when you said you can't do insider trading?
<zooko>
In normal stock markets, etc?
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<kanzure>
gavinandresen: i don't know if you should defer to them simply because they have been called smart by others :-) let's be more careful
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<zooko>
gavinandresen: also Bitcoin is a much smaller, shallower market than those others.
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<gavinandresen>
zooko: there are plenty of small, shallow markets for tiny stocks. Yet we don’t see people shorting them then burning down their factories.....
<kanzure>
overstock.com would love to disagree
<Adlai>
gavinandresen: because bitcoin needs to be valuable to be secure. a penny stock certificate is just as difficult to counterfeit as BRKA
<zooko>
gavinandresen: Hm.
<gavinandresen>
at least, not here in the US. except for owners pulling insurance fraud….
<kanzure>
there are many stocks that get shorted far beyond the actual supply of that stock
<kanzure>
"the goldfinger attack" was not necessarily about profiting by selling shorts or whatever
<zooko>
gavinandresen: I don't know -- I'm certainly not one of those smart people -- but is it that there is the *potential* for massive amounts of money to come in to
<zooko>
bust your insincere short?
<gavinandresen>
In any case, if you’re worried about ‘goldfinger attacks’ — okey dokey. Look forward to your patch that fixes that potential problem.
<zooko>
Even if that rarely happens in practice?
* kanzure
is not okay with that argument from authority above
<zooko>
I'm not saying that smart people know. I'm saying I don't know. ;-)
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<jgarzik>
kanzure, slapped that book on my Kindle, thanks
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<kanzure>
jgarzik: sorry for forgetting about you, whoops
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<warren>
Have there been any followup papers on the size of the transactions of 2 way pegging when going back to BTC?
* Adlai
is not okay with the "argument from disinterest"
* dgenr8
fully expects massive pumps (and dumps) in bitcoin as big fiat gets going