sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
skeuomorf has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Burrito has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
skeuomorf has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
Burrito has joined #bitcoin-wizards
lmatteis has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
instagibbs has joined #bitcoin-wizards
echonaut has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
echonaut has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<instagibbs>
petertodd, is the TXO data structure you mentioned in your MIT Expo talk detailed somewhere? I haven't really been following the email convos
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Ylbam has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
PRab has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
hashtag_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
<instagibbs>
kanzure, ah, links, right thanks
<kanzure>
andytoshi: ignotus emails are not showing up on the mimblewimble mailing list
Noldorin has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
danrobinson has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
danrobinson has joined #bitcoin-wizards
danrobinson has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Noldorin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Noldorin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
igno_peverell has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Dizzle has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-wizards
legogris has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
legogris has joined #bitcoin-wizards
btiefert has joined #bitcoin-wizards
moa has joined #bitcoin-wizards
moa has quit [Changing host]
moa has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pro has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Giszmo has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
igno_peverell has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
btiefert has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
kkode has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
btcdrak has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
btcdrak has joined #bitcoin-wizards
btiefert has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
[7] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
wasi has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
wasi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
btiefert has quit [Quit: btiefert]
btiefert has joined #bitcoin-wizards
moli_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aaronvan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Aaronvan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
bildramer1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bildramer has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
aalex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bildramer has joined #bitcoin-wizards
aalex has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
bildramer1 has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dizzle has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
Intensity has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bildramer1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
bildramer has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
CubicEarth has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
bildramer has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Ylbam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bildramer1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
BashCo has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
BashCo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
ahmedsfhtagn has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
voyager_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
voyager_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
moli_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mountaingoat has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
MaxSan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mountaingoat has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Russianguy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Russianguy has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
btiefert has quit [Quit: btiefert]
<Taek>
I thought it would be interesting to ship a mining pool server with bitcoin core, to make it easy for new mining pools to join the network
<Taek>
(hypothetical)
<Taek>
To engage this pool, miners would run their own full nodes, pick their own transactions (getblocktemplate style), and then use a payment channel to the pool server to get PPS
<Taek>
anyone wanting to run a mining pool would set some fee (like a competitive market) and then just pay out for shares
<kinlo>
I dont think making an easy mining pool would be a good idea
<kinlo>
we have a lot of history of mining pools gone wrong
<kinlo>
if you want to solomine, it can be done relatively easy
<Taek>
kinlo: do you have specific incidents you are worried about? A mining pool server shipped by core developers is unlikely to have issues (assuming it gets developed at all)
<Taek>
There are two additional things that would make this more practical
<kinlo>
Taek: there were some opensource mining pools that did get hacked afaik
<kinlo>
but more likely those who run it will not be able to fix any problems if they arise
<Taek>
the first is some consensus system (like Jute) with improved fairness and selfish mining resistance
paveljanik has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<kinlo>
running a pool is not an easy job
<kinlo>
I've ran a pool for several years, I know what I'm talking about
<Taek>
b/c mining pools run from home will have trouble with their orphan rates
<kinlo>
if it is public, you are going to attract a lot of hackers
<kinlo>
if it is private, you are solomining and you are not pooling
<Taek>
and then the second is a more substantial fix to the block withholding attack, perhaps adding a signature from the coinbase txn or something to make sure that the person giving the share to the mining pool has no idea if they've mined a valid block
<fluffypony>
Taek: why not just package p2pool in?
<fluffypony>
package/bundle/whatever
<kinlo>
p2pool is indeed the only real solution
<Taek>
kinlo: solomining is not relatively easy, you need a massive amount of hardware and electricity to get the variance low enough, unless you are sitting on a fat pile of cash and also willing to gamble it
<kinlo>
Taek: you cannot prevent block withholding, coz you always know if a block is valid or not
<Taek>
but your concerns about hackers are well placed
<fluffypony>
considering I'm literally sitting next to Taek I should just tell him
<kinlo>
Taek: it is also not worth the effort running a pool
<kinlo>
you need enough people to stay relevant, and people wont come to you if you are not
<kinlo>
it is just a lot of pain :)
<kinlo>
again, I ran a pool for years, I know why I quit
<Taek>
kinlo: you can if you change the PoW algorithm, I think it's fairly easy to eliminate the block withholding. Instead of scoring based on just the hash, you have two levels. The first is the hash of the block, and then if that is cleared you also need a signature of the hash, which only has a 1/256 chance of success or similar
<Taek>
but you have to make sure that each block hash has exactly 1 valid signature, which I think you can only do with schnorr?
lmatteis has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Taek>
but I'm pretty sure there are other methods to achieve the same thign
<kinlo>
Taek: you are talking about a serious hard fork then
<Taek>
at this point yes, this is the theoretical ideas channel after all
<Taek>
but then I was thinking about something amiller has expressed interest in, which is -EV mining
<Taek>
and I think you're never going to get serious miners to buy a lot of hardware with -EV mining
<Taek>
but... if you are running a pool, you can offer 102% reward or whatever in your PPS, and then you can gamble that you get a block early
<Taek>
since it's getblocktemplate, it's still decentralized
<Taek>
but you can gamble while also funding PoW
<kinlo>
Taek: you do know you get *all* the shit over you if you run a pool
<kinlo>
and if you're doing PPS you need to pay a lot of cash out of your own pocket
<kinlo>
what is in it for the pool operator?
<kinlo>
they get all the risk
<Taek>
yes, mining pools in this case would need to start with enough cash to potentially cover several block rewards
<kinlo>
yeah, but will they make a profit?
<Taek>
or perhaps even not, they could just try for 10 btc worth of shares and then give up
<kinlo>
if you cannot guarantee a profit, why should one bother?
<Taek>
kinlo: one could ask the same question about the billions of dollars spent every year on lottery tickets and casinos
<Taek>
the idea here is to make operating a mining pool accessible to non-professionals
<Taek>
it would be profitable if you had deep enough pockets, enough patience, and little enough competition
<Taek>
but I suspect that there would be enough competition that professional pool operators wouldn't bother
<Taek>
which is more the real goal - if you have 100 unprofessional pools, this is much better than a dozen or so professional pools
harrymm has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<Taek>
and better still if you can get a thousand or more professional pools
<Taek>
*unprofessional pools
<kinlo>
see, pooled mining is only usefull if you have a lot of people in it
<Taek>
kinlo: I don't have a great understanding of all the pains of mining pool operators, but I would be interested in hearing more about the problems you ran into
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<kinlo>
Taek: well, when I ran my pool it was during the days bitcoin mining was affordeable to everyone who had the money to buy a game pc so the world has changed since, but still
<kinlo>
You can basically put it to several categories:
<kinlo>
- People know you have a wallet online that pays out bitcoins to people. So you get attacked on all sides, there was a nearly constant brute force attack on passwords, every day your servers get probed over and over
<kinlo>
you only have to skip one security update and you're robbed
<kinlo>
- secondly, people are stupid. People do not understand mining and you need to explain everything to everyone
aalex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<kinlo>
just one forum post that you didn't payout someone would make people wary of your pool so you do need to help people with their wallet problems, even if their iq is not high enough to open a bottle of water
<kinlo>
- thirdly, you need to get a constant flow of new people going: I found the attentionspan to be around 1 day, if you didn't find a block per day, people would just go away and go search for another pool, which lowers your chances of finding a new block
<kinlo>
- 4: you need to payout people, even if you mess up and lose bitcoins
<kinlo>
which basically means, you get a lot of shit, a lot of risk, and no financial gains
<kinlo>
surely, I did make a coin in the early days
Kelton has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<kinlo>
but after a while, it was certainly not worht the time I put into it so I had to close it down
<kinlo>
oh yeah
<kinlo>
we're talking about money so:
<kinlo>
5) uptime. can't afford to be down for 5 minutes
Mikayla has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<kinlo>
and the cherry on top: 6) ddos attacks. We got several threads. Look your pool was down for 1 hour. That was us. Pay us X bitcoins or we do it again
<kinlo>
threats*
aalex has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<kinlo>
so basically, you need to be online 24/7 to fix problems, work very hard at it, and for what?
Mikayla has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<Taek>
so, the network I am thinking about would resolve a lot of these issues
<Taek>
b/c you'd have a large set of mining pool servers, and so if one goes down for a while, the miners will just auto-switch to another
<Taek>
the humans aren't picking the pools, the software is
<Taek>
this will also help with the customer support aspects
<Taek>
the opsec stuff though would still be a problem, potentially enough of a problem to kill the idea entirely
<fluffypony>
Taek: what if I Sybil the network and run malicious mining pools that don't pay out?
<Taek>
fluffypony: it's payment channel based PPS, 'not paying out' isn't a thing :)
<Taek>
you get a payment channel payment for every share
* fluffypony
ponders
<Taek>
re: p2pool, doesn't work because the payouts aren't large enough. You still have to make payouts large enough in p2pool to justify the transaction fees
<Taek>
but in PPS you can get paid steadily every hour and then only cash out when you need it
<Taek>
and now I'm really dreaming, but if we've got a full lightning network and you can pay your electricity company through lightning you may be able to years without needing to withdraw
moa has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
kristofferR has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
harrymm has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
kristofferR has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<nsh>
(probably uninteresting: https://storj.io/ claims to be distributed storage with blockchains and p2ps and puppies and kittens but all the documentation is about using their API etc and no white paper or backend technical explanation that i can find)
<Taek>
nsh: storj just came out of beta last week! And, you can now pay cash to store data on their platform. Interestingly enough, you cannot pay cryptocurrency, only cash
<nsh>
heh
<Taek>
that should sum up their priorities I think
* nsh
nods
bildramer1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bildramer has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<nsh>
'The reference implementation will use Storjcoin micropayment channels which are currently under development' # presumably this is no longer the plan
<tromp_>
kanzure: i found ignotus mw emails in my gmail spam folder
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<tromp_>
then when i marked them as non-spam they disappeared entitrly.
<bsm1175322>
"Order Preserving Symmetric Encryption" was pointed out to me at BitDevs last night as a potential crypto which could be used (somehow) in an improved SPV scheme to improve wallet privacy.
<andytoshi>
tromp_: could be google trying to undermine protonmail to make some TLA happy :/
<tromp_>
right now google is undermining my faith in gmail
fibonacci has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
<tromp_>
it's not just protonmail. it also marked as spam some ongoing email correspondence with a recumbent shop
<kanzure>
it happens with yahoo and some other email providers, it's a known issue
<tromp_>
what i hate most is that that marking as non-spam is so broken that it loses all traces of those emails
cluelessperson has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<kanzure>
it moves them into the inbox, i believe.
cluelessperson has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<tromp_>
it claims to, but they're not there
igno_peverell has joined #bitcoin-wizards
arubi has quit [Changing host]
arubi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
skeuomorf has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2]
abpa has joined #bitcoin-wizards
flipperWhip has quit [Quit: flipperWhip]
laurentmt has quit [Quit: laurentmt]
trotski2000 has quit [Changing host]
trotski2000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
trotski2000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has quit [Changing host]
igno_peverell has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Sosumi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bildramer has joined #bitcoin-wizards
voyager_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
voyager_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
bildramer1 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
MaxSan has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
mountaingoat has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
mountaingoat has joined #bitcoin-wizards
BashCo_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
BashCo_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
BashCo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
MaxSan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
keeko__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
keeko__ has quit [Quit: Leaving]
cluelessperson has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
cluelessperson has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
BashCo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
btiefert has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
igno_peverell has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
Noldorin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Noldorin has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Noldorin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
bildramer1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bildramer has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
bildramer has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bildramer1 has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
LeMiner has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
paveljanik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pro has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
pro has joined #bitcoin-wizards
igno_peverell has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
gigq has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
gigq has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NewLiberty has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
spinza has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...]
JackH has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
NewLiberty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Firescar96 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Guest53633 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guest53633 has quit [Changing host]
Guest53633 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guest53633 is now known as schmidty
NewLiberty has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
NewLiberty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
LeMiner has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has quit [Quit: laurentmt]
<stevenroose>
gmaxwell, just as a note, it looks like the message about the unknown deployment is shown whenever I start the node, I just didn't notice it before. so yeah it's probably the old one
<gmaxwell>
stevenroose: yep. I have a proposal to be able to configure ignoring demployments, e.g. ignorebip9=bit:height but the notice on testnet is actually a nice test soo...
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
Firescar96 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
<stevenroose>
gmaxwell, on that regard, does bitcoin core allow you to opt-out of signaling deployments? Or is it not possible for a miner to run v0.13.1+ if it does not support segwit?
<gmaxwell>
stevenroose: it's quite hard to signal segwit in fact.
<gmaxwell>
you have to replace/upgrade/modify your mining software.
<gmaxwell>
it doesn't happen by default.
<stevenroose>
oh
<stevenroose>
gmaxwell, then maybe a --signalbip9=bit would be quite desirable :)
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2]
lmatteis has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
voyager_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
voyager_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
shesek has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<waxwing>
fluffypony: is all that rainbow paper stuff written by an AI? :)
Sosumi has quit [Quit: Bye]
igno_peverell has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bliljerk101 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
skeuomorf has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
bliljerk101 has quit [Read error: No route to host]
bliljerk101 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Piper-Off is now known as Monthrect
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
marcoagner has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
droark has joined #bitcoin-wizards
skeuomorf has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chjj has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<luke-jr>
stevenroose: what you signal is decided by your mining software
CubicEarth has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
chjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
stiell has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guyver2 has quit [Quit: :)]
rusty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
skeuomorf has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
dispel has joined #bitcoin-wizards
stiell has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
stiell has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarth has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<stevenroose>
luke-jr, oh. I haven't looked into mining protocols for a long time. I thought that getblocktemplate would contains the version number in the template
stiell has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<sipa>
stevenroose: GBT needed extensions for segwit
<sipa>
so if the GBT client does not support segwit, it cannot produce segwit commitments.
<stevenroose>
that makes sense
<sipa>
actually, that doesn't matter here, this is about signalling, not producing witness blocks
<stevenroose>
well, but it doesn't make sense to signal if your client is not able to create the blocks once it's activated
<sipa>
still, the GBT client is the one using the data in the GBT response... even though GBT reports what version to use, the client must use it
<stevenroose>
sipa, oh, you mean that GBT reports a version number, but the GBT user can still change it in the blocks it submits?
<sipa>
stevenroose: actually, it does. if your non-segwit miner is using a 0.13.1 full node, you can signal segwit, and have it safely activated
<stevenroose>
but does bitcoin-core gbt set the SW bit by default?
<sipa>
stevenroose: you won't build segwit blocks yourself, but you'll still validate segwit rules, and won't build on top of segwit-invalid blocks
<sipa>
it does only if the client support segwit, i think
<sipa>
but i think we should change that
wasi has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
wasi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has quit [Quit: laurentmt]
<luke-jr>
stevenroose: what sipa said, but note that the client is expected to set and unset bits itself
<sipa>
s/expected/allowed/ i would say, but agree otherwise :)
<gmaxwell>
sipa: it's already changed in master, and there is a PR open for the backport for 0.14.1
<sipa>
oops, i haven't been paying attention it seems
afk11_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
afk11_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wasi has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jbenet has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
wasi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
stiell has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jbenet has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
jannes has quit [Quit: Leaving]
aalex has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
stiell has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dodomojo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chjj has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
cluckj has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
MaxSan has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
dodomojo has quit [Remote host closed the connection]