ec changed the topic of #elliottcable to: #
<dsamarin> -find stack
<purr> dsamarin: what is an execution, if it is also a list? ⁓
<dsamarin> -find stac
<purr> dsamarin: Found: stack, optimism, cat, and the stack
<dsamarin> -the stack
<purr> dsamarin: the rabbithole
<dsamarin> -cat
<dsamarin> -optimism
<whitequark> -find dumb
<purr> whitequark: Found: ide
<whitequark> -ide
<purr> whitequark: dumb
<whitequark> lol
<purr> lol
<whitequark> -word ide
<whitequark> -best ide
<purr> IDE IS BESTIDE
<joelteon> -best best best
<purr> BESTBEST IS BESTBEST
<whitequark> ...
<dsamarin> -learn tostada = http://substack.net/images/taco.png
<purr> dsamarin: Learned `tostada`.
<dsamarin> -best hamburger
<purr> HAMBURGER IS BESTBURGER
<dsamarin> -best whitequark
<purr> WHITEQUARK IS BESTQUARK
<joelteon> how does it manage the first syllable
<dsamarin> secret byte
<dsamarin> -best longwordstring
<purr> LONGWORDSTRING IS BESTSTRING
<alexgordon> this is magic
<whitequark> -learn best = http://areallykewlwebpage.tripod.com/
<purr> whitequark: Learned `best`.
<alexgordon> literally, magic
<whitequark> -best
<purr> IS BEST
<whitequark> -find best
<alexgordon> dsamarin: you should run it through the dictionary
<whitequark> -best foobar
<purr> FOOBAR IS BESTFOOBAR
<alexgordon> to find where the last word ends
<whitequark> -best fucktard
<purr> FUCKTARD IS BESTFUCKTARD
<whitequark> -best alexgordon
<purr> ALEXGORDON IS BESTALEXGORDON
<dsamarin> -best fucktard
<purr> FUCKTARD IS BESTTARD
<dsamarin> -best alexgordon
<purr> ALEXGORDON IS BESTGORDON
<whitequark> hahaha
<whitequark> -best alexgordon
<purr> ALEXGORDON IS BESTALEXGORDON
<whitequark> -best alexgordon
<purr> ALEXGORDON IS BESTALEXGORDON
<joelteon> -best alexgordon
<purr> ALEXGORDON IS BESTALEXGORDON
<whitequark> ... what
<dsamarin> secret delimeter byte
<joelteon> -best whitequarkdoyoustillhavejoelteonignored
<purr> WHITEQUARKDOYOUSTILLHAVEJOELTEONIGNORED IS BESTWHITEQUARKDOYOUSTILLHAVEJOELTEONIGNORED
<whitequark> -best yes
<purr> YES IS BESTYES
<alexgordon> -best flashgordon
<purr> FLASHGORDON IS BESTFLASHGORDON
<dsamarin> -best taco bell
<purr> TACOBELL IS BESTBELL
<alexgordon> damn
<dsamarin> you can also use spaces
<alexgordon> but that's not as funnest
<dsamarin> -best funnest
<purr> FUNNEST IS BESTNEST
<alexgordon> haha
<dsamarin> -best haha
<purr> HAHA IS BESTHA
<whitequark> -best foobar
<purr> FOOBAR IS BESTFOOBAR
<whitequark> argh
<joelteon> -best joelteon is very sorry for what happened
<alexgordon> -best
<purr> JOELTEONISVERYSORRYFORWHATHAPPENED IS BESTHAPPENED
<purr> IS BEST
<alexgordon> :D
<whitequark> joelteon: ok
<joelteon> thanks
<dsamarin> -best joelteon
<purr> JOELTEON IS BESTTEON
<alexgordon> joelteon, whitequark: now have illegal russian sex
<joelteon> nothing in russia is illegal
<dsamarin> -best illegal russian sex
<purr> ILLEGALRUSSIANSEX IS BESTSEX
<alexgordon> too right
<dsamarin> isn't being gay illegal in the soviet union?
<dsamarin> i mean russia
<whitequark> yeah
<joelteon> that sounds hard to enforce
<alexgordon> I love that russia is now only known for homosexuality
<dsamarin> and it's manly leader
<alexgordon> before it was making huge nuclear bombs and scaring the shit out the the world
<whitequark> joelteon: you do understand how it's going to be enforced right?
<whitequark> joelteon: someone's goals diverge from the goals of the main party (that is, stealing). boom he's gay.
<dsamarin> -best gay enforcement
<purr> GAYENFORCEMENT IS BESTENFORCEMENT
<whitequark> it's just that
<dsamarin> -best -best command
<purr> -BESTCOMMAND IS BESTCOMMAND
<whitequark> well, this, and this distracts people from more important stuff, etcetc
<whitequark> as usual.
<dsamarin> neh snyech
<whitequark> what
<joelteon> whitequark: oh, I get it
<joelteon> oh that IS clever
<dsamarin> не знаю
<whitequark> government in $yourcountry does that as well
* whitequark shrugs
<purr> ¯\(º_o)/¯
<joelteon> that's the whole "you hate children! you support the terrorists!" argument
<joelteon> but for gay people instead
<alexgordon> whitequark: some day russia will be as good at distracting people as america is!
<whitequark> yes exactly
<dsamarin> -best america
<purr> AMERICA IS BESTRICA
<whitequark> let's not talk about politics
<whitequark> it's too sad
<dsamarin> politics are bestics
<whitequark> let's talk about fucking compilers
<whitequark> for example I fucked my compiler today for about ten hours
<whitequark> it seems happy
<alexgordon> whitequark: is it gay if your compiler fucks you?
<dsamarin> gcc is a whore
<alexgordon> because I use C++
<whitequark> alexgordon: it's robot-on-human rape
<whitequark> dsamarin: gcc is a *dead* whore.
<alexgordon> gcc isn't dead, just in a coma
<joelteon> ok i've decided to actually figure out what the fuck foundry is
<dsamarin> clang likes to talk during sex
<joelteon> dude, holy shit
<joelteon> statically typed ruby???
<joelteon> HOLY SHIT
* whitequark sighs
<alexgordon> occasionally it shows sights of life, but then stallman shows up with the GPL Pillow and smothers it
<alexgordon> *signs
<joelteon> neat
<whitequark> today in foundry news: I accidentally forgot to implement syntax for `if
<whitequark> and comments
<whitequark> and loops
<whitequark> it is not very expressive as it is
<whitequark> well, you have unbounded recursion and your program terminates with a segfault when it exhausts stack space
<whitequark> so it's not like it will run only forever
<joelteon> so you're going with ARC
<whitequark> joelteon: actually no
<whitequark> that's outdated
<joelteon> oh what is it now
<whitequark> what I have now and what's likely is a final scheme is regions+region inference+pluggable memory management schemes
<whitequark> i.e. you could have several heaps, garbage-collected or not
<whitequark> it's possible to introspect both stack maps and object layout from within the language
<whitequark> so you can write a gc entirely in foundry
<dsamarin> -best gc
<purr> GC IS BESTC
<joelteon> neat
<whitequark> regions also allow you to use closures without losing your sanity
<joelteon> oh yeah, that's one thing that bothers me with rust
<whitequark> which one?
<joelteon> closures aren't very smart
<whitequark> oh
<joelteon> not yet
<joelteon> the compiler can't determine how many times it's called
<joelteon> so for now, there's a hack involving std::Cell
<whitequark> eh
<joelteon> let myvar = std::Cell::new(some_value); ... { let myvalue = myvar.take(); }
<whitequark> my opinion of rust sort of deteriorates over time
<whitequark> i used to think it's very cool
<whitequark> but now i think that mozilla, as usual, is much better at pr than at writing code
<joelteon> oh, well, i don't know much about the internals
<whitequark> rust is definitely one of their best projects, but I'm not sure if it's (ever?) going to be good enough
<whitequark> for example now the rate of change is somewhat insane
<whitequark> and what bothers me is not that they want to get the lang in shape before freeze
<joelteon> ok i have to agree that they love renaming bits of the stdlib
<whitequark> but how they really really cannot decide on anything
<whitequark> every single bit is changing like 100 times
<whitequark> wtf, this is not how you do a language
<whitequark> foundry is largely complete: I think I can fit semantics on one side of A4 page, and syntax on the other one
<whitequark> and I don't feel much need to change anything.
<joelteon> well, i'm blocked anyway, because they haven't implemented comm adapters for sockets yet
<whitequark> well, whichever way, rust isn't much of the competition for foundry
<joelteon> yeah i am tentatively excited about foundry
<whitequark> it uses macros and shit
<whitequark> macros are so 1970
<whitequark> stahp this already
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<Navarr> ec just does not stop rebooting his server.
<Navarr> or maybe im doing something wrong
<Navarr> yup. forgetting to re-open tmux
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<Navarr> that explains a lot
<alexgordon> Navarr!
<Navarr> alexgordon!
<whitequark> incomprehensibly:
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<whitequark> tl;dr: "LET'S MAKE IT COOL"
<whitequark> sorry, non-informative.
<whitequark> oh and also one of the most major bottlenecks in package management (easily visible with apt) is fsync()ing on every database update
<whitequark> which you must do to ensure consistency.
<whitequark> sqlite, fuckqlite, whatever: you're not going to avoid id
<whitequark> *it
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<whitequark> in fact sqlite is likely to make it worse by flushing the journal and then the db itself
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<dsamarin> whitequark: what did you say before my connection went out?
<dsamarin> before in fact...
<whitequark> -logs
<purr> whitequark: `curl -Lr -`bc <<<'2 ^ 16'` http://ell.io/logs | tail +2 | less -RS`
<whitequark> no
<whitequark> -find logs
<purr> whitequark: `curl -Lr -`bc <<<'2 ^ 16'` http://ell.io/logs | tail +2 | less -RS`
<whitequark> purr: fuck you.
<dsamarin> whitequark: if you look at the citations, sqlite improved speed in spkg
<dsamarin> dpkg*
<dsamarin> plus there are other alternatives
<whitequark> I also know that it used to be a huge problem in firefox
<whitequark> well
<dsamarin> especially the way it's done now is terribad
<whitequark> my point is, sqlite is good (why not), but you're gonna be stuck fsyncing around, just as every other package management system
<dsamarin> so there's absolutely no way around it
* whitequark nods
<dsamarin> at least pacman is pretty speedy already
<dsamarin> so that's a nonissue
<whitequark> what would be the killer feature?
<whitequark> ok
<whitequark> you know, which makes me migrate from dpkg
<dsamarin> heh i doubt you would use a system not supported by your distro anyway, but i'm still brainstorming what the killer feature should be
<dsamarin> another person was saying the features were too boring
<whitequark> it's something *expected* in this day and age
<whitequark> so it's not really features
<whitequark> more like, absence of any of those would be busg.
<whitequark> *bugs.
<dsamarin> i think package managements systems now are mostly out-of-your-way now so that's a good question
<whitequark> exactly
<dsamarin> what about support for installing packages in virtual envs/chroots/containers?
<whitequark> what's wrong with debootstrap?
<dsamarin> what is wrong with it
<dsamarin> whitequark: android has the only package manager i know that uses binary diffs for updates. in google chrome, updates with courgette are .7% the size of a full update (what apt, rpm does now)
<whitequark> that's definitely cool
<dsamarin> that's a 0.7 percent
<whitequark> but why not patch apt?
<dsamarin> hells fricken yeah
<whitequark> everyone would be grateful as fuck
<whitequark> I'll reply: because mirrors don't have the capacity to build binary updates for everyone, for 22k packages in deb.
<dsamarin> i'd rather start from scratch because of some security vulnerabilities apt has which if fixed would not be backwards-compatible
<whitequark> such as?
<whitequark> and how are you going to guarantee that you won't add completely new and unknown vulns?
<dsamarin> it's never possible to guarantee but it's possible to take an existing infrastructure and fix known vulns
<whitequark> exactly
<dsamarin> whitequark: it's possible to make something stronger with specific security design goals in place
<dsamarin> i mean package management is a somewhat simple concept but people forget some basic things like signing metadata
<whitequark> so it's just the reply attack
<whitequark> it's not practically applicable
<whitequark> for several reasons, the ultimate of which is that security.debian.org points specifically to security.debian.org
<whitequark> maintained by debian.org and *without* any mirrors
<whitequark> specifically to avoid this attack.
<whitequark> and, as they helpfully mentioned, once upgraded the package manager won't install the old version on its own.
<whitequark> i don't get that page, it's completely conceptual
<whitequark> no proofs, specific listings, CVE numbers or anything
<whitequark> bullshit
<dsamarin> they managed to own their own mirror
<whitequark> so what
<dsamarin> apparantly
<whitequark> I've explained above that it doesn't matter a slightest
<whitequark> well, for deb
<dsamarin> i know canonical has commercial software for multi-workspace package management
<dsamarin> how about an open version?
<whitequark> now that sounds like something really interesting.
<whitequark> would you use, say, dpkg as a backend?
<whitequark> you could be able to reuse packagekit or something.
<whitequark> that'll give you deb rpm and maybe something else.
<whitequark> see, no one really needs a *replacement* for dpkg for multi-workspace pkg management; they work on different levels.
<whitequark> even apt is lower-level.
<whitequark> canonical's thing is above apt too, I'm sure.
<dsamarin> i'd rather make a new pkg system so that it's easier to implement diff updates
<whitequark> "hey, we don't like how the buttons are rounded in Qt" "Suuuuure, let me just rewrite Linux"
<dsamarin> plus ΩF:∅ has the resources to fund security audits, something other people don't do
<whitequark> (though that is an adequate restriction of most open-source :p)
<dsamarin> whitequark: it would be difficult to extend a current pkg system with those features
<whitequark> does oftn have the resources to completely replicate dpkg and apt?
<whitequark> since that's what you would need *before* doing that multi-workspace thing.
<dsamarin> that's the plan
* whitequark shrugs
<purr> ¯\(º_o)/¯
<dsamarin> i mean i would love to be able to incorporate all my requested features into dpkg so much
<dsamarin> seriously!
<whitequark> try harder :p
<whitequark> fork dpkg.
<whitequark> still better than completely new system.
<whitequark> not necessarily dpkg, fork anything existing.
<dsamarin> maybe pacman
<whitequark> maybe
<dsamarin> fun fact: apt was the first widely known dependency resolution tool
<dsamarin> i guess before you had to install the dependencies manually
<dsamarin> even if it was packaged
<whitequark> dsamarin: don't think so
<whitequark> `make' is most widely known one :p
<dsamarin> whitequark: omg wikipedia is wrong!
<whitequark> doesn't freebsd's portage still use it?
<dsamarin> heh
<dsamarin> yeah
<jesusabdullah> dsamarin: yeah slack's package system was like that
<dsamarin> you mean slack's "package system" :)
<jesusabdullah> yes
<whitequark> you "mean" "slack"'s "package" "system"
* whitequark "performs" "air quotes"
<dsamarin> yes
<dsamarin> "yes"
<jesusabdullah> "\"air\" \"quotes\""
<dsamarin> "oh \"god \\\"nesting\\\"\""
<dsamarin> whitequark: how do you feel about packagers which allow multiple versions of the same package to be installed simultanously? (most commonly done with symlinking to the package version's dir)
<dsamarin> e.g. nix
<whitequark> fuck that
<whitequark> I've had enough of it with rubygems
<whitequark> it is an extremely bad idea
<dsamarin> heh npm as well
<whitequark> npm is different
<whitequark> it has namespacing
<whitequark> unix doesn't really
<dsamarin> hm
<whitequark> neither namespacing nor a working module system
<dsamarin> right
<whitequark> well, unix, or rubygems alike
<whitequark> dsamarin: wait why are you in #ocaml
<dsamarin> whitequark: studying sks
<whitequark> sks which?
<dsamarin> you know the synchronizing keyserver?
<dsamarin> it's written in ocaml if you can believe it
<whitequark> oh cool
<whitequark> write your pkg manager in ocaml
<whitequark> <3 ocaml
<purr> Let it be known that whitequark hearts ocaml.
<dsamarin> lol
<purr> lol
<whitequark> easily deployed, fast, etc
<whitequark> well if not
<whitequark> DON'T USE JS OR PYTHON
<whitequark> or i will find and strangle you
<dsamarin> oh hell no
<dsamarin> i'd stuff a sock in my mouth if i did that
* dsamarin is javascripted out
<whitequark> why are you fucked out
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<ec> micahjohnston: your class-list makes me want to kill myself.
<ec> “” physics, calculus III, CS (discrete structures, set theory type stuff), and beginning linguistics
<ec> omfg. you're too smart. saddestface.
<ec> damnit guys
<ec> why do you have interesting conversations at times when I'm going to not want to read computer-shit the next time I log-in!
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<jesusabdullah> lyngwistixxx
<jesusabdullah> I don't *have* college classes anymore!
<jesusabdullah> :)
<joelteon> **
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<jesusabdullah> shit
<jesusabdullah> how do you print screen in osx again? :C
<vil> Cmd+Shift+3
<vil> or 4 to grab just a region
<vil> 4+Space to grab a window
<jesusabdullah> okay
<vil> shots will appear on the desktop
<joelteon> I hate when fucking bugs disappear when you enter the DEBUGGER
<joelteon> GOD DAMN IT
<vil> lol debuggers
<purr> lol
<joelteon> DEBUGGER should not mean BUG DISAPPEARER
<vil> real programmers debug with print statements while drinking unicorn tears
<jesusabdullah> ^^^^^^
<joelteon> i don't HAVE any unicorn tears
<vil> they just materialize when you become a real programmer
<vil> sort of a catch-22
<joelteon> darn
<vil> the only other option is to kill a real programmer and take theirs
<joelteon> ok
<joelteon> are there any of them here
<vil> dunno
<vil> alexgordon: do you have any unicorn tears?
<alexgordon> vil: I did tear a unicorn once, I but I think it healed
<joelteon> you but you think it healed
<alexgordon> me but me yes
<joelteon> i think i'm going to give myself a hitler youth haircut
<joelteon> and see if it works
<joelteon> so I found out about a structure called a seminearring
<joelteon> "semi-near ring"
<joelteon> but the first time I read it I thought it was "semen earring"
<vil> close enough
<joelteon> and it was cool because you can write out the letters from 1 to 100 billion and find the middle letter using a binary search
<joelteon> I still don't have the faintest fucking idea how they did that
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<jesusabdullah> that definitely says semin earring
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