devyn changed the topic of #elliottcable to: 22:53:14 <+whitequark> also there was a fragment about Swiss embassy being located on top of a 1000-ft pole, inside which there was a gigantic arms exhibit
<devyn> whitequark: excellent. I miss flash animations
<devyn> whitequark: lol why the SO link… are you just amused that so many people didn't know what .PHONY was?
<purr> lol
<joelteon> it's a weird name
<devyn> yes, I'm not really sure why "phony" was chosen when they could have said something more descriptive
<devyn> or just like
<devyn> :p
<devyn> "fake"
<devyn> even then, "fake target" isn't all that specific
<whitequark> devyn: no
<joelteon> or ignore
<joelteon> or virtual
<devyn> perhaps virtual
<devyn> yes
<whitequark> it has 256 votes and 64 favorites
<whitequark> 2^n
<devyn> oh.
<devyn> lol
<whitequark> I found that oddly satisfying
<devyn> also that 64*4 = 256
<devyn> and 64 ends in 4
<devyn> hahah what
<whitequark> hah I just learned one weird trick
<whitequark> there's a peripheral, it has memory-mapped I/O area and a enable bit in a register
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<whitequark> if you just know its base address, you can determine which bit enables it by doing (1 << ((addr - 0x4000_0000) >> 10))
<devyn> o_O
<whitequark> basically the whole MMIO address space is delimited into slots (which, incidentally, correspond to bus matrix ports)
<whitequark> and each bit is carefully laid out to be associated with the corresponding slot
<devyn> ah, ok
<devyn> that makes sense then
<devyn> neat trick
<whitequark> word
<whitequark> it's not documented tho
<whitequark> at all.
<devyn> until you encounter some peripheral that doesn't follow it ;)
<whitequark> I've accidentally stumbled upon it in someone's else code
<whitequark> naw
<whitequark> it's preserved in all of STM32's chips
<whitequark> they actually do this shit incredibly carefully, for example they have *compatible registers* across series with different *CPU architectures*
<whitequark> with different word width.
<whitequark> ie, stm8 and stm32
<devyn> huh
<devyn> well, okay
<devyn> this is a bizarre nop or something o_O
<devyn> 55:66 66 2e 0f 1f 84 00 data32 nopw %cs:0x0(%rax,%rax,1)
<devyn> 5c:00 00 00 00
<whitequark> it's used as padding
<devyn> I know
<whitequark> and yes, it is
<devyn> but it's still odd
<devyn> :p
<whitequark> eh not really
<devyn> also, I can't seem to get clang to generate a 'rep stos' type instruction for this for loop rather than a generic loop
<devyn> is 'rep stos' not as fast anymore?
<whitequark> what's your clang incantation?
<devyn> code or command line invocation?
<whitequark> cmdline
<devyn> optimization wise, just -O2
<whitequark> set -mcpu=core2 or i7 or something
<devyn> hm clang doesn't appear to support that
<whitequark> does it not?..
<whitequark> -mtune
<devyn> yeah, that worked, but clang is still generating a branch loop
<whitequark> llvm version?
<devyn> 3.3
<whitequark> mhm
<whitequark> then it's either not faster, or clang just can't do shit
<whitequark> try gcc
<whitequark> then compare cycles with perf
<devyn> okay I shall
<whitequark> ... the fuck
<whitequark> I ran perf top
<whitequark> why do my music player spend 10% in libspeexdsp?!
<whitequark> it's decoding fucking mp3s
<devyn> o_o
<joelteon> good lib name
<joelteon> 8/10
<whitequark> joelteon: what's about it?
<joelteon> ?
<devyn> wow, dat optimization... I *thought* I was forcing clang to actually produce the memory clearing loop by printf()-ing an offset of the piece of memory
<devyn> but instead clang just deduced that it would be equal to the constant
<devyn> so just printf'd the constant
<whitequark> scalar evolution
<whitequark> ask llvm to print scev info for loops, it's rather insightful
<devyn> I love LLVM
<whitequark> I love it too
<whitequark> let's have a threesome
<devyn> :p
<devyn> whitequark: holy shit, clang just optimized my for loop into a memset() call
<devyn> hahaha
<joelteon> devyn: i wonder if I would get good performance on unscramble with my old algorithm if I used logicT
<devyn> I don't know, it seems to clever to be performant
<devyn> too*
<devyn> see performance-related answer
<whitequark> ... the fuck should that even do
<devyn> whitequark: ok, if I compile with -ffreestanding to avoid the memset() invocation it generates the branch loop as before. I'll try GCC now
<joelteon> good old maybe
<devyn> GCC generates an even less optimal branch loop
<devyn> so
<devyn> I think inline assembly might be the way to go here
<whitequark> waitwaitwait
<whitequark> -O2?
<devyn> yes -O2
<whitequark> why the fuck are you using -O2 for optimizing tight loops which are likely parallelizable with SIMD?!
<whitequark> -O3
<whitequark> and -mtune.
<devyn> I don't have the FPU initialized yet in my environment
<whitequark> SSE* arent dependent on FPU afaik
<devyn> hmm, osdev.org said to use -mno-sse* though
<devyn> I can try I guess
<whitequark> actually
<whitequark> initializing fpu is one instruction
<whitequark> fninit
<whitequark> why the fuck do you even bother
<devyn> haha really? there's nothing more to it?
<devyn> I honestly hadn't looked into it
<whitequark> well, yeah, I assume you don't want to detect it
<whitequark> because fuck <=486
<devyn> it's x86_64 anyway so an FPU is guaranteed
<whitequark> yes
<whitequark> there may be some relevant cr4 bits
<whitequark> CR4.OSFXSR enables SSE
<whitequark> CR4.OSXMMEXCPT enables its exceptions
<devyn> yeah looking at that page now
<devyn> ok
<devyn> good to know
<whitequark> >To distinguish a 287 and a 387 FPU
<whitequark> >287
<devyn> :p
<whitequark> *sob*
<whitequark> necrophiliacs
<devyn> some people on there really do try to support extremely old hardware though
<devyn> some of them even have old machines to run on
<whitequark> well I do need a pentium I
<whitequark> by the way can you send me one?
<whitequark> maybe II or III would also suffice
<devyn> send you a pentium I?
<whitequark> yes
<whitequark> three words: hardware lpt port
<devyn> why can't you get one?
<whitequark> well idk, I can
<whitequark> maybe you have one though
<devyn> well I mean unless there's another reason, I don't have one, so I'd have to go looking for one, and then it would be the same, just with another level of indirection
<whitequark> then don't :)
<devyn> hahaha stumbled upon this http://logos.wikia.com/wiki/Pentium_I
<devyn> "This was Intel's very first processor"
<whitequark> *facepalm*
<devyn> wat
<devyn> gensym-name-stickiness:like-teflon
<whitequark> exactly
<devyn> I guess the "like teflon" part was just an amusing subtitle
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<cuttle> my compiler so far:
<cuttle> main = putStrLn "hi"
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<devyn> lol
<purr> lol
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<devyn> jesus I don't know whether this is some kind of spam op or what
<devyn> but random nicks from the Ukraine and Czech Republic are joining every channel
<devyn> random words, one channel per nick
<cuttle> lol
<purr> lol
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<devyn> seems to be pretty widespread according to #freenode
<devyn> I guess someone's just testing out their botnet
<devyn> not sure what they're going to do though
<devyn> :p
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<devyn> sweet, we have vectorization
<devyn> ^_^
<devyn> that was really quite painless
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<joelteon> okay
<joelteon> I am officially
<joelteon> mining dogecoin
<devyn> y
<joelteon> because the exchange rate with btc is improving
<devyn> litecoin is still more worthwhile to mine, if you're in it for the money
<joelteon> oh ok
<joelteon> does that uses scrypt
<joelteon> use*
<devyn> yes
<joelteon> ok
<joelteon> so thats GPU
<devyn> um, most things are GPU mined
<devyn> well bitcoin is ASIC now
<devyn> almost entirely
<devyn> but that's because there are so many good SHA256 ASICs
<joelteon> ok
<joelteon> i really don't know anything about coin
<joelteon> i've just picked up random factoids
<joelteon> from the internet
<devyn> I know quite a bit
<devyn> so, ask me stuff if you want to
<joelteon> okay, well, i'm not in it for the money
<joelteon> but i'm interested in namecoin
<joelteon> how do I get started with that
<devyn> I believe namecoins have to be mined alongside bitcoins
<devyn> and since you can't really mine bitcoin with a GPU
<devyn> it's probably better to just mine litecoin or something
<devyn> exchange to bitcoin
<devyn> and buy namecoins
<joelteon> or i could buy an asic
<devyn> nah, by the time you get it it won't be very profitable anymore
<devyn> that's how it generally works
<devyn> :p
<joelteon> okay
<joelteon> well
<joelteon> goddamn
<joelteon> how should I mine litecoin
<devyn> like I said just mine litecoin
<devyn> get on a pool
<joelteon> so that uses my GPU
<devyn> I use wemineltc
<devyn> and use that with cgminer
<joelteon> ok joining
<joelteon> it asks for a security question
<joelteon> I like this already
<joelteon> :/
<joelteon> ok
<joelteon> Getting Started
<joelteon> ok, stratum auth failed
<joelteon> what am I doing wrong
<joelteon> oh
<joelteon> register new worker
<joelteon> ok
<joelteon> MAYBE
<joelteon> i could read the setup guide
<devyn> reading is good
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<joelteon> there we go
<joelteon> that was easy
<joelteon> wow, 10.84Kh/s
<joelteon> that sounds like shit
<devyn> uh... yeah that is shit
<devyn> what are you using
<joelteon> I think I'm using my macbook...
<devyn> you think?
<joelteon> gpu management
<joelteon> 0 is producing 6.991Kh/s, 1 is producing 8.284
<devyn> threads yes
<devyn> ok
<joelteon> only one thread in use, it says
<devyn> what kind of hardware does your macbook have
<devyn> CPU and GPU
<joelteon> 2.6GHz core i7
<joelteon> and
<joelteon> Intel HD Graphics 4000 1024 MB
<joelteon> whatever the fuck that is
<devyn> no dedicated graphics?
<joelteon> wait
<joelteon> oh no
<joelteon> i have a geforce gt 650M
<joelteon> how odd
<joelteon> i don't know how to tell which GPU it's using, or anything
<devyn> you have both
<joelteon> right
<joelteon> integrated and dedicated
<joelteon> which is why it lists 2
<devyn> the Intel graphics are built in to the CPU
<joelteon> that doesn't explain why the performance is so bad though
<joelteon> it explains why the integrated graphics are shit
<devyn> yes it does; the GeForce GT 650M is low end
<joelteon> oh
<joelteon> ok
<devyn> and it's also NVidia
<joelteon> lol
<purr> lol
<devyn> NVidia cards are great for graphics but not so good for non-floating-point compute
<joelteon> KHash rates may appear too low if they're under 500 KH/s
<joelteon> lmao
<joelteon> yeah a little bit
<joelteon> FUCK ME
<joelteon> I give up
<devyn> in fact they're really shitty for integer compute
<joelteon> i'm retiring
<joelteon> i'm going home
<devyn> I have a Radeon HD 7950
<devyn> it can do 600 kH/s
<cuttle> 1 up-to 16 with-step: 4
<cuttle> idefk
<devyn> cuttle: wat
<devyn> what is that
<joelteon> okay
<joelteon> well
<joelteon> well.
<joelteon> well
<cuttle> devyn: it might be the syntax of my language but i have no idea
<joelteon> ok
<devyn> haha
<devyn> cuttle: look, enabling SSE is so easy o_o
<devyn> I thought it was hard
<joelteon> how much does a single namecoin name cost
<joelteon> is 1nc = 1btc
<cuttle> what's sse
<devyn> joelteon: no, look at btc-e
<joelteon> ok
<joelteon> good
<devyn> a single namecoin is like $5 atm I think
<joelteon> i didn't want to pay fucking $700 for a domain name
<joelteon> someone sell me 1nmc worth of btc
<joelteon> or 1nmc
<devyn> joelteon: get a namecoin wallet and let it sync (will probably take the whole night)
<devyn> and then I can send you one
<joelteon> how do I do that
<joelteon> :D
<devyn> ...download namecoin
<devyn> open it
<joelteon> ok
<devyn> let it sync
<joelteon> ok
<joelteon> from dot-bit?
<joelteon> the SSL certificate expired over a year ago
<joelteon> i'm scared
<devyn> joelteon: http://namecoin.info/
<joelteon> neat
<devyn> seriously I just googled 'namecoin'
<joelteon> so I get to build it too
<devyn> that was first result
<joelteon> yeah, i'm using duckduckgo
<devyn> so what are you talking about
<devyn> lol
<purr> lol
<devyn> oh ok
<joelteon> turns out
<devyn> pff
<joelteon> its results are useless
<joelteon> in the general case
<joelteon> i have to already know about 70% of what i'm asking
<joelteon> sooo that's a bad idea
<joelteon> I should make a native OSX namecoin client
<joelteon> that'll be nice
<devyn> surely there's a port of bitcoin-qt somewhere that you can just apply the namecoin-related patches to
<devyn> pretty well all of the *coin software is just bitcoin-qt + patches
<joelteon> good idea
<joelteon> and they're all gross
<devyn> I think you can live with qt
<devyn> :p
<joelteon> not like i have a choice
<joelteon> ok
<joelteon> believe it or not
<joelteon> namecoin-qt doesn't build on OSX
<joelteon> i'm astonished
<devyn> lots of things don't build on OS X lol
<purr> lol
<devyn> but
<joelteon> i'll go ask #namecoin
<devyn> probably a good idea
<joelteon> oh is THAT what that's doing
<joelteon> lol
<purr> lol
<joelteon> dogecoin is a patched version of bitcoin-qt too
<joelteon> no wonder
<joelteon> nothing wrong with qt-based apps, other than the fucked up text boxes and progress bars
<joelteon> and the fact that they don't support retina
<joelteon> and that the fonts are wrong
<devyn> wrong, dogecoin is a patched version of litecoin-qt, which is a patched version of bitcoin-qt :)
<joelteon> but on linux, you're used to that sort of thing
<devyn> lack of retina, sure, fonts being wrong, no
<devyn> qt looks fine on linux
<joelteon> yeah lol
<devyn> it's actually pretty easy to get font antialiasing set up so it doesn't look awful on linux
<devyn> I don't know why everyone always complains about that
<devyn> lol
<devyn> honestly I used OS X for development for quite a while
<devyn> a few years
<devyn> but I'm actually really enjoying my current setup on linux
<devyn> with xmonad
<devyn> at least with Arch I can install something and it takes like 10 seconds
<devyn> I don't have to worry about compiling anything
<devyn> or whether it will be compatible
<joelteon> nope
<joelteon> i liked that about arch
<joelteon> didn't like a bunch of other stuff though
<devyn> well anything graphical is your own fault, generally; you can do anything you want
<joelteon> yeah, I guess I could patch Qt
<joelteon> can't be that hard
<devyn> lol not what I mean
<purr> lol
<joelteon> I hope not
<devyn> that would probably take a lot of work, though I'm actually not certain
<joelteon> i think it would, based on qt's build time
<devyn> Qt might actually support high-dpi screens by now
<joelteon> i hope so
<joelteon> I want to like it
<joelteon> unlike java
<devyn> yes, Qt 5.0 added support for higher DPI displays, and Qt 5.1 is supposed to further refine it
<joelteon> devyn, if you try to send me btc now, will something break since my wallet isn't up to date
<devyn> but I don't know whether it instantly works or whether applications have to support it
<devyn> no, nothing will break, you just won't get it until it's up to date
<joelteon> ok
<devyn> you've got the bitcoin client right?
<devyn> you knkow
<devyn> actually
<joelteon> i have the namecoin client
<joelteon> do i need the bitcoin one
<devyn> joelteon: why don't you just sign up for btc-e
<joelteon> ok
<devyn> er
<devyn> never mind?
<devyn> I'm not sure
<joelteon> you didn't say to
<devyn> fuck it
<joelteon> i'm confused
<joelteon> just tell me what to do
<joelteon> i want a nmc domain
<joelteon> that's all
<joelteon> i'll pay you five dollars if that's what it takes
<joelteon> devyn, what do i do now
<devyn> a namecoin domain costs 0.01 NMC apparently
<joelteon> do i continue synchronizing my namecoin wallet
<joelteon> or should i stop
<devyn> yes just leave it synchronizing
<devyn> I think you need it
<joelteon> ok
<devyn> registration is done like this, I guess
<joelteon> yeah you use namecoind to register it yourself
<joelteon> >using a third party
<joelteon> lol
<purr> lol
<devyn> the whole point is that third parties should be entirely unnecessary with this :p
<devyn> obviously it's not the most user friendly thing
<devyn> but
<devyn> it's not that popular either
<devyn> so I don't think that's a huge concern at the moment
<devyn> :p
<joelteon> ok so nmc costs 5 cents
<joelteon> it's gonna be way more expensive in awhile
<joelteon> or maybe not
<devyn> no, nmc does not cost 5 cents
<joelteon> ok
<devyn> a namecoin *domain* costs 5 cents
<devyn> which is 0.01 NMC
<joelteon> ok
<joelteon> sure
<joelteon> and then renewal is free
<devyn> well technically it renews any time you update it at all
<joelteon> yep
<devyn> god I love jazz
<devyn> > The i487SX was marketed as a floating point unit coprocessor for Intel i486SX machines. It actually contained a full-blown i486DX implementation. When installed into an i486SX system, the i487 disabled the main CPU and took over all CPU operations. Although Intel took measures to require the presence of an i486SX for i487SX to function properly, Intel admits that some systems can function with i486SX absent. Intel however cautions that such configura
<devyn> wow.
<devyn> lol
<purr> lol
<cuttle> devyn: yeah re jazz
<devyn> it's just so fantastic
<cuttle> what stuff have you been listening to
<devyn> basically all of Hiromi Uehara's stuff
<devyn> amazing jazz pianist
<devyn> like
<devyn> really good
<cuttle> cool
<cuttle> i haven't checked out really any japanese jazz but i've heard it's big there
<devyn> it is
<devyn> and she tends to use neat synthesized instruments a bit sometimes
<cuttle> cool
<cuttle> have you listened to like
<cuttle> miles davis
<devyn> possibly, I can't remember
<devyn> I only just rediscovered jazz
<devyn> really
<devyn> lol
<purr> lol
<devyn> I listened to it a lot when I was young
<devyn> er
<cuttle> ok yeah
<cuttle> miles davis is an absolute genius; the album "kind of blue" is like top all time albums
<cuttle> :p
<cuttle> ooh this is bluesey
<devyn> yeah, some of her stuff is
<cuttle> i just love how improvisational and human jazz is
<cuttle> like look at them laughing at each other
<cuttle> conversing through the music
<devyn> yeah
<devyn> I'm listening to "Keytalk" right now, and half way through she sort of discovers a middle eastern riff
<devyn> and expands on it
<devyn> I love it when that happens
<cuttle> yeah it's way cool
<cuttle> where are you listening to it?
<devyn> yeah I was going to show it to you but I couldn't find it on YouTube
<devyn> one sec
<cuttle> cool thanks
<cuttle> devyn: have you listened to any uk garage
<cuttle> been listening to a ton the past few days
<cuttle> and more generally just a bunch of futurey beat music
<devyn> possibly, but not recently
<devyn> I've been listening to softer music lately because I find it helps with concentration
<cuttle> ok
<devyn> ah yeah I've heard this kind of stuff before
<devyn> I'm really not good with genre names :p
<cuttle> :p
<cuttle> it's kind of where burial came out of
<devyn> yeah neat
<devyn> funny enough Wikipedia actually has a full song
<devyn> as an example
<devyn> Visions by Ascent
<devyn> pretty good
<devyn> I love how visual this is
<devyn> the comments have little diagrams
<cuttle> haha nice ascii art
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<alexgordon> cuttle: this seems like it would be your type of thing http://rise4fun.com/FStar/tutorial/guide
<alexgordon> type? geddit?
<alexgordon> -_-
<devyn> how do I red black tree @_@
<alexgordon> devyn: that font is UGLY
<alexgordon> the kerning is ALL WRONG
<devyn> alexgordon: yes, it is the BIOS font, what do you want
<devyn> did you notice the kernel/ bit
<devyn> this is running right on top of nothing
<devyn> lol
<purr> lol
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<alexgordon> well get a better motherboard
<alexgordon> ;)
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<devyn> it's standard and it's QEMU :p
<alexgordon> then it's not running on top of nothing!
<devyn> well, emulated nothing
<devyn> :)
<devyn> I haven't slept yet.
<devyn> this is driving me insane
<devyn> FUCKIN' TREES
<devyn> YOOOOOOO
<devyn> hahaha
<devyn> I have one of those clocks that projects on the ceiling
<devyn> it is good
<devyn> ooooh neat
<whitequark> I'll publish it when I'll have an HTTP server working over CDC-ECM
<devyn> lol
<purr> lol
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<devyn> sun is rising.
<devyn> guess I'm not sleeping
<devyn> I should really get around to writing a printf()
<devyn> not having it makes you miss it a lot
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<yorickpeterse> wat
<yorick> devyn is not good at banning.
<yorick> or he's high
<yorick> alexgordon: that's monospace, it looks like that
<yorickpeterse> yorick: so you're gonna set off massive fireworks tonight like a true Dutch man?
<yorick> no?
<yorick> are you?
<yorickpeterse> No
<yorick> I'm going to enjoy watching other people light their expensive things on fire, like a true Dutch man.
<yorickpeterse> I had a party in Amsterdam but the trains stop at 20:00 and don't go until 05:00 and ofc nobody has a couch left over
<yorickpeterse> so I"m probably going to code/play vidya
<yorickpeterse> like usual
<yorick> good.
<yorick> is your company still enjoyable?
<yorickpeterse> which reminds me that I need to hustle down to Albert Heijn to get snacks
<yorick> and is it doing well?
<yorickpeterse> so far we are
<yorick> excellent :)
<yorickpeterse> didn't you write Prolog or something?
<yorickpeterse> if so, go fix this piece of shit http://www.let.rug.nl/vannoord/alp/Alpino/
<yorick> I know some prolog
<yorick> but a lot of things written in it are shit
<yorickpeterse> that's a mix of prolog, bash, Tcl/tk, bundled shared linux extensions and 2GB training files
<yorickpeterse> lawl
<yorick> AGH
<yorickpeterse> typical researchers crap
<yorick> the drawings are bad enough
<yorickpeterse> I probably have to stuff that in a Gem ._.
<yorickpeterse> even though I already said "lol no way"
<purr> lol
<yorick> oh, I was looking for something that could do this because http://writer.pro can do this too
<yorick> yorickpeterse: this is terrible, do I get paid for this? :P
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<yorickpeterse> haha
<yorickpeterse> I probably have to fix that pos myself at some point
<yorickpeterse> that's the only way I can probably get it going
<yorickpeterse> but I would not be surprised if the author was like "Lol fuck off this works for me"
<purr> Lol
<yorickpeterse> grrr researchers
<yorick> you could hire me, I have experience getting research POS prolog code to work on linux
<devyn> yorick: no I banned the whole range because there's bots from that range joining random channels on freenode every few hours
<yorick> the things I have seen
<devyn> it's kind of annoying
<yorick> I had to install an old version of eclipse classic!
<yorick> because things were only available in its plugin system!
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<whitequark> oh god the drawings
<devyn> whitequark: drawings?
<whitequark> on yorickpeterse's page
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<devyn> hahaha
<yorick> whitequark: those are typical dutch drawings from the 1930s
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<whitequark> (apt-get install xmp to play)
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<devyn> if those are XMs, I believe timidity will play them if you have that installed, and so should VLC
<whitequark> iirc timidity doesn't play it right
<whitequark> and vlc simply can not
<whitequark> ah, no, vlc works just fine
<whitequark> I last tried that several years ago
<devyn> of course, if you really want the whole experience, you play it in an actual GUI tracker
<whitequark> the one from Orion also had an excellent picture of Chuck Norris
<whitequark> *that* is the whole experience.
<whitequark> gotta find it.
<whitequark> wow, a 30MB Nero setup file
<whitequark> that's... almost unbelievable
<devyn> that is fantastic
<whitequark> I've actually found the executable too, but can't download it (no seeders).
<whitequark> it is.
<whitequark> I know for a fact it runs fine under Wine.
<devyn> keygens bloody should
<devyn> if they don't, they're doing something malicious :p
<whitequark> other things with good 8-bit music: civilization 1
<whitequark> it's a rather good game in general, too.
<whitequark> don't forget to run it in DOSBox and select the PC Speaker emulation, not some pesky AdLib or Soundblaster
<whitequark> those are way more inferior
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<devyn> whitequark: what is this http://i.imgur.com/SB8tljv.jpg
<devyn> I mean obviously it's bender from futurama
<devyn> but what's he saying
<devyn> :p
<niggler> devyn it must involve his shiny metal ass
<whitequark> devyn: crap
<whitequark> this is... exceptionally hard to translate
* whitequark sighs
<whitequark> okay. so you know that at winter, rivers are covered with ice
<whitequark> and at spring, that ice breaks and starts to float downstream
<whitequark> there's an idiom, "лёд тронулся", which, taken literally, means exactly that process
<whitequark> "тронулся" is a verb meaning "to start going", you could apply it to, for example, a train
<whitequark> it is especially applicable in a context where the train has been standing for an extended period of time, and you've been waiting, and it has *finally* started to go
<whitequark> in other words, you can apply it to the very start of some promising process, eagerly waited for
<whitequark> (it) the verb itself, but especially the idiom
<whitequark> now, another meaning of "тронулся", somewhat vernacular, is "to go mad"
<whitequark> this explains that weird picture of ice at the top right corner: it's a wordplay on literal interpretation of idiom
<whitequark> I've barely scratched the surface, though!
<whitequark> there's a russian satirical novel "the twelve chairs" by ilf and petrov, an excellent one, it has produced quite a few expressions which entered the general vocabulary
<whitequark> you could say "memes", except it was about a century ago
<whitequark> the protagonist in "twelve chairs" is called "ostap bender", and in the movie adaptation he dresses like this: http://www.profi-forex.org/system/news/41_bender.jpg
<whitequark> so that explains the outfit. now the text.
<whitequark> he quotes (of course) that novel, saying "лёд тронулся, господа присяжные заседатели, лёд тронулся"
<whitequark> that *could* be used in a context of law proceedings; literally that means "ice was broken, gentlemen jurors, ice was broken"
<whitequark> meaning something very interesting or important to the process was discovered
<whitequark> Ostap, however, does not say that in a court! he's a rather talented fraudster (not unlike Bender! they do have somewhat similar personalities)
<whitequark> and he uses that phrase as an exclamation while discussing his latest idea with his accomplices.
<whitequark> by the way, in the english translation the phrase is translated as "Things are moving, gentlemen of the jury."
<whitequark> you should read it.
* whitequark is done
<cuttle> alexgordon: hm, for no rational reason i've never really gotten into f# or ocaml or anything
<cuttle> rubs me the wrong way for some reason
<cuttle> probably mostly syntactic. idk
<cuttle> it's dumb
<whitequark> f# is cute
<cuttle> one thing i dislike is the whole
<cuttle> statements thing
<cuttle> or iow assignments being expressions
<cuttle> and there being assignments
<cuttle> and rec let and shit
<whitequark> what about let rec?
<alexgordon> hi cuttle
<alexgordon> cuttle: I've played around with F#
<alexgordon> yeah there's something off about it
<alexgordon> I think it's the .NET :P
<alexgordon> whenever I see a MS technology all I think is "oh well that'll be gone in 5 or 10 years"
<devyn> whitequark: wow.
<devyn> I was not expecting that
<devyn> thank you for translating
<devyn> ...wo.
<devyn> wow.*
<devyn> alexgordon: I feel that F# is just a way for all of the MS Research folks to use a functional language when they want to
<devyn> and I'm sure it was interesting to develop too
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<devyn> ok, nap time
<cuttle> whitequark: I really don't like let rec
<cuttle> whitequark: it's a functional language, why not just fucking allow forward referencing
<whitequark> it's actually present more for syntactical reasons
<whitequark> let x = x + 10
<whitequark> can't do that with let rec
<cuttle> that's what i don't like about it
<cuttle> solutions: single assignment and having some other method of mutable state when you need it
<whitequark> um, let x = x + 10 is not mutable state
<whitequark> ocaml doesn't have mutable variables at all, you've got to use cells
<cuttle> I feel like having slightly uglier assignment is much less of a pervasive ugliness than slightly uglier recursion in a *functional language*
<cuttle> oh ok what is it
<whitequark> it's *not* assignment
<whitequark> it's rebinding
<cuttle> ...
<cuttle> what's the important difference
<whitequark> let x = 1 in (let x = 2 in print x); print x
<whitequark> prints 2 1
<cuttle> you can do that in haskell
<whitequark> eh?
<cuttle> like, haskell has single assignment and no let rec
<cuttle> and you can absolutely do that
<whitequark> sure, it's a choice
<cuttle> no I'm saying, this doesn't get you anything
<cuttle> I don't see what your point is
<whitequark> this allows you to structure code in a particular way
<cuttle> what particular way
<whitequark> lemme find an example
<cuttle> you can indeed do that without rec let
<cuttle> haskell allows that
<cuttle> haskell just lets you have a block of definitions in every let
<cuttle> like lisps do
<cuttle> like, my problem is that
<cuttle> ocaml/f# view a definition as an event there is a before and after of
<cuttle> rather than viewing a program as a platonic set of definitions
<whitequark> what? no
<whitequark> it's just lexical scope
<cuttle> but you can't forward reference
<cuttle> unless you can in which case idk what i'm complaning about
<cuttle> but still why is rec necessary
<whitequark> ask #ocaml
<whitequark> they will explain it better
<cuttle> ok
<cuttle> i'm wary of asking a language channel to defend their language
<whitequark> naw they're cool
<whitequark> also, don't phrase it in the way which requires defense
<whitequark> just "why is let rec necessary while you could avoid it"
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<cuttle> whitequark: a question, becuase I'm not sure if I know what I'm talking about:
<cuttle> can you say
<cuttle> let x = y + 1
<cuttle> let y = 3
<cuttle> or does that error
<cuttle> at the top level
<cuttle> yeah
<cuttle> i don't like how it treats a whole program as a list of instructions
<cuttle> i like haskell's approach a lot better
<cuttle> like, defining a function should not be an operation
<cuttle> like, even c doesn't do that
<cuttle> c just needs forward delcarations because it's got a shitty syntax
<whitequark> cuttle: toplevel is special in ocaml
<whitequark> but no, you can't say that either way
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