<drmeister>
That's the Clasp source tree visualized using "gource" (gource.io)
<drmeister>
blue (.cc files) red (.h files) green (lisp files) white (Dockerfiles/scripts)
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<shrdlu68>
How widely used are non-free implementations, and what is attractive about them over free implementations?
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<aeth>
shrdlu68: Probably hard to tell because this is Freenode, and that gives us a skewed view.
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<aeth>
shrdlu68: The advantages of proprietary CLs are, afaik: (0) IDEs that aren't emacs, (1) graphics toolkits, (2) standalone binaries with tree shaking.
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
tree shaking?
<aeth>
shrdlu68: The advantages of proprietary CLs are, afaik: (0) IDEs that aren't emacs, (1) graphics toolkits, (2) standalone binaries with tree shaking.
<aeth>
essentially, remove what you don't use and get lighter binaries/runtimes
<aeth>
Not too surprising that the idea came from Lisp. You're probably not going to use the majority of the large language in any application.
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
Seems like with functions being first class data types that would be difficult since they could be bound and executed at runtime.
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
You may have a slot in a CLOS instance a user is allowed to assign but may not.
<shrdlu68>
Tree-shaking sounds like a rather attractive feature. Is is particularly difficult to implement?
<aeth>
Oh, I forgot. There are some other value-added things that a proprietary CL might have. They might embed a database or a Prolog, etc.
<sjl>
drmeister: a few of us have switched to VLIME from SLIMV, so that's something to check out as well
* sjl
goes afk
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<aeth>
shrdlu68: If no one can answer your question, you could try asking in the implementations' IRC channels about what it would take in a particular implementation.
<aeth>
There probably isn't an answer that applies to every implementation.
<drmeister>
sjl: How would you compare vlime to slimv to slime?
<drmeister>
DUH
<shrdlu68>
aeth: Ok.
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<pierpa>
shrdlu68: commercial implementations all have free limited versions to try, so just try them
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<pfdietz>
The Lispworks on is 6 years old...
<pfdietz>
one
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<rme>
Somehow, the LispWorks people are able to make a living selling a CL implementation. I think that's amazing (and admirable).
<rme>
At least two.
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<pjb>
Xcode or Visual Studio developers must be more like around 2000, each…
<rme>
And Clozure's business has never been selling a CL implementation (namely Clozure CL) as a product.
<pjb>
Indded, they cheated with consulting. (But Franz does consulting too AFAIK, and probably Lispworks also).
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<rme>
Clozure's "cheating by consulting" paid the bills me for 7 or 8 years. :-)
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<pjb>
rme: compute the number of license you would have to sell to have the same income!
<pjb>
and imagine the improvement on the lisp ecosystem this would represent!
<aeth>
pjb: There are a surprising number of commerical Lisps. At least Allegro, LispWorks, Scieneer, and mocl. Genera might also still count, since I think it's still being sold.
<aeth>
And those are just the ones I could find.
<aeth>
(mocl is a mobile commerical Lisp)
<JuanDaugherty>
a new plot line for huis clos
<JuanDaugherty>
and just as you found them they sold out to allegro
<pierpa>
I think Lispworks thrives on their Xanalys partners?
<rme>
If you can get $3000/yr/copy for 200 or 300 copies, you'd be doing OK. You won't be earning big money, but that would be enough for a sustainable little business.
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<rme>
But this isn't #lisp-business.
<pjb>
rme: that said if the business sells free-software implementation, it remains in the charter AFAIK.
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<JuanDaugherty>
.6 - .9 million USD is big money to me
<JuanDaugherty>
and there ain't no damn miss ann and mr charlie lisp channel
<rme>
For one person, sure, but that'd be enough for three people to do fairly well.
<pierpa>
it's big money for a single person business. Not for a company
<JuanDaugherty>
that's why your class is currently lost, unreasonable expectations
<rme>
My class?
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<JuanDaugherty>
presuming you are a worker and not a firm
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<aeth>
With that kind of yearly money, you'd get... what? 4 employees?
<JuanDaugherty>
so a firm in aspiration, the usual thing
<JuanDaugherty>
i wouldn't get no damn employees, ever. contractors at most
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<JuanDaugherty>
aka 'a class conscious peer worker'
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<pjb>
JuanDaugherty: 0.9 million USD is barely 4 engineer.year.
<pjb>
JuanDaugherty: it's peanuts for a corporation.
<pjb>
JuanDaugherty: remove taxes, overhead, shareholders' share, I'm not even sure you can pay 2 engineers with that…
<JuanDaugherty>
ok
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<pjb>
And contractors are not cheaper than employeers. The advantage of contractor is that you don't have to pay them when you don't have work for them.
<pjb>
s/eers/ees/
<JuanDaugherty>
right, it's a clean tx
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<pjb>
JuanDaugherty: this is why startup work on a noodle-basis at first…
<JuanDaugherty>
which is why the major firms virtually all supplement their wage slaves with contractors
<pjb>
Yes, to adapt the work load, (and also, to benefit from better and rarer competencies).
<wxie>
Hi, are you self-employeed?
<pjb>
Yes.
<wxie>
From the very beginning?
<pjb>
One could say that. Since a long time.
<wxie>
Cool, do you hire anybody else?
<pjb>
Nope. Never had a project big enough to warrant it.
<loke>
pjb: WHat kind of buffer do you have? In the sense that if you stopped getting contracts tomorrow, how long would you last before having to look for wage-slavery?
<wxie>
How did you get your first project?
<JuanDaugherty>
however to directly deal with free labor would be like tolerating the striking of a white man, so they virtually all deal with front firms that actually hire the contractors
<pjb>
loke: of course it's variable. From a few months to almost one year, depending on the previous project…
<loke>
I see.
<pjb>
wxie: well, it was so long ago, I don't know if it would still be meaningful. Basically, at that time, there were so few programmers, that just announcing you were one, you'd get calls.
<loke>
That means I have enough buffer in cash (about a year or two on current burn-rate) to actually go ahead and do what you're doing.
<wxie>
pjb: Thanks. Did they offer you a position?
<JuanDaugherty>
and even in 2018 said firms, which uniformly add nothing to the labor they resell, in general, operate at unknown markups
<pjb>
JuanDaugherty: And foremost, to deal with the details of the hiring process. Only programmers can hire programmers; customers rarely are in the programming business.
<pjb>
wxie: it happens some times. But it's not worth it, since being employed is usually being paid less…
<pjb>
JuanDaugherty: it's not the worst: you may be at the end of a long chain of subcontractors…
<JuanDaugherty>
the firms that hire contract labor are almost always either as their main line of biz or defacto in IT
<JuanDaugherty>
in this time virtually every firm is more or less
<JuanDaugherty>
uh, that may be one thing that's changed somewhat, more parties than 3, 4 at most
<pjb>
For example, a bank wouldn't care hiring programmers. Instead they contract with a company to furnish the programmers. This company may be lazy and hire head hunters to find them, and so on.
<wxie>
pjb: ok.
<loke>
pjb: Actually, many banks have their own programmers. Some banks have more than others.
<loke>
pjb: Certain banks have more well-staffed development teams than major banking software makers.
<pjb>
Also for the bank, if they need to change the work load, or need to replace a programmer, it's simplier for them to delegate the HR problems to the contracted company.
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<aeth>
pjb: Do you ever use Common Lisp professionally?
<JuanDaugherty>
4 or 5 party deals used to be fairly common
<pjb>
Of course, a company that realize that software is the core of their know-how would want to have the development done in-house…
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<pjb>
But they're not often that smart.
<pjb>
aeth: it occurs.
<wxie>
pjb: Do you negotiate with your customer for using GNU GPL, etc.?
<JuanDaugherty>
no they do realize it
<pjb>
wxie: yes: it's excluded.
<JuanDaugherty>
but wage slaves just don't perform that well
<JuanDaugherty>
and of course they're gonna be burnt out for the next crop
<JuanDaugherty>
in 5-10 y generations
<pjb>
wxie: in general, you can use MIT or BSD -like license, but if you want to contribute back, you have to go thru their legal departments, and you never hear back from them.
<JuanDaugherty>
there is in fact no #lisp-business but this ain't it either
<pjb>
wxie: in any case, it's always case-by-case. It depends on a lot of factors.
<wxie>
pjb: sure
<wxie>
If you choose GNU GPL, will they pay less comparing to non-free license?
<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<pjb>
wxie: first, the software is usually owned by the customer.
<pjb>
wxie: if you remain the owner of the software, then you can license it as you wish. Very few (ie. none) customers are aware enough of the licensing question to care.
<pjb>
wxie: GPL is worth more to the user, since they could resell it if they wanted.
<wxie>
pjb: Understand.
<wxie>
pjb: Good luck in 2018 for you.
<pjb>
wxie: basically, if you sell a proprietary license to your software, you can sell cheap a non-exclusive license, but then you can sell copies to their competition!
<pjb>
wxie: Thanks
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<wxie>
pjb: I do not have any software to sell, and would never sell any under non-free license.
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<wxie>
pjb: Maybe we can think over a time-bounded free license: if the customer owns the software, she should agree that you can publish it under free license after a certain time.
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<borei>
hi all
<beach>
Hello borei.
<Xach>
Shinmera: Thanks. I didn't realize that's how it works. The example in the readme didn't drive it home for me.
<borei>
read some perfomance reports in regards to matrix multiplication and CPU performance. found that what i got now is 1% of possible performance
<borei>
there is LINPACK tests that show >100GFlops on i7 type CPUs
<borei>
so my question would be - is such performance not reachable using lisp ?
<beach>
borei: I think you are working in a highly competitive domain. A lot of smart people with a lot of money have worked on this problem for a very long time.
<borei>
unless you are using CFFI bindings to the library ?
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<beach>
borei: I don't think such performance is reachable using only the standardized features of any language, Common Lisp included.
<borei>
how are they getting such numbers
<beach>
I don't know.
<beach>
But you would need both threads and SIMD instructions at least.
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<beach>
And you would need good algorithms. Not the naive one you are using.
<borei>
with threads i can x4 (at least on mine computer)
<borei>
you can't go better then O(n^2.8)
<beach>
Like I said, you have chosen a very competitive domain. You have a lot of reading to do if you want to compete.
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<borei>
yeah, that is for sure
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<pierpa>
btw, wikipedia says the best known algorithm for matrix multiplication is O(n^2.3728639)
<rme>
IIRC, the magnitude of the constant factor is so high for the O(n^2.4) algorithm that it is totally impractical.
<pierpa>
yes, true
<pjb>
rme: it all depends on your N.
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<pjb>
Of course, if you're doing 4x4 it's probably not worth it. But for 1000 or 1000000, I'd bet any overhead is worth it.
<rme>
Strassen's algorithm, which is O(n^2.8) IIRC, is actually worth it for relatively small matrices. But I'm remembering this from quite a while ago.
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<pierpa>
I heard Prof Romani (whose algorithm was for a period of time, in the '80s the best known) talk about this topic.
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<pierpa>
his opinion was that algorithms asyntotically faster than Strassen are not usable in practice
<pierpa>
*asymptotically
<beach>
rme: You know moore33, right?
<rme>
yes indeed
<rme>
I've been in touch with him already.
<beach>
Ah, OK.
<rme>
We all had lunch at your place a couple of years ago.
<pjb>
Well, "However, the constant coefficient hidden by the Big O notation is so large that these algorithms are only worthwhile for matrices that are too large to handle on present-day computers." so perhaps we'll have to wait a little ;-)
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<beach>
rme: Yes, I seem to remember something like that.
<rme>
It was a very good lunch.
<beach>
Heh, thanks!
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<Shinmera>
Xach: Yeah, I realise that should be clarified. I can also see a point to your attempted use-case, but I don't know if it would lead to more or less confusion in the long run.
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<loginoob>
I don't know lisp and javascript and i heard someone in my office saying js is a lot like lisp. Is it true?if it is then how?
<Shinmera>
It's not.
<Shinmera>
But everyone wishes it was, so I can understand the indulgence in delusions.
<loginoob>
Can you explain me in simple way how
<loginoob>
By simple i mean not using any js or lisp terminology
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<loginoob>
If it's possible
<Shinmera>
Okey: JS is a horrible mess of a language that was born out of a mistake. Common Lisp is a carefully crafted language designed by a committee of experienced and intelligent people.
<beach>
I don't know JavaScript, but I think I have heard that its object system is prototype based as opposed to that of Common Lisp that is class based.
<loginoob>
Ok
<Shinmera>
People like to think that JS is like Lisp because it has closures, but almost every language nowadays has closures, so really that's not an argument.
<beach>
And I don't think JavaScript is homoiconic.
<Shinmera>
It is not.
<beach>
What about things like rational numbers? Does JavaScript have them?
<loginoob>
Yes i have read that word before homoiconic. What does it mean
<beach>
loginoob: There appears to be quite a lot of differences.
<loginoob>
Thank you for the explanation and time
<beach>
Anytime.
<loginoob>
I am new to programming and i trying to learn haskell first and then i will learn lisp
<beach>
Good luck.
<loginoob>
Ty
<beach>
Ywlcm
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<loginoob>
Code can be treated as data. Is this ex correct of former?We can add a functionality to emacs by writing lisp macros.
<beach>
loginoob: Emacs is written in Emacs Lisp. This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
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<beach>
loginoob: Common Lisp macros provide a mechanism for syntactic abstractions that is absent in most other languages.
<loginoob>
But is the above example correct for code can be treated as data
<beach>
Common Lisp macros manipulate code as data, yes.
<loginoob>
Nice
<beach>
But most functionality is provided not by macros but by functions, classes, etc.
<loginoob>
Ok
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<beach>
Macros are used when new syntax is desired. One can view macros as a way of programming the compiler to recognize new special forms.
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<beach>
A "special form" is a form that is typically fixed in most languages, such as WHILE or FOR or IF. In other words, it has an evaluation rule that is different from that of a function call, so it can't be programmed as a function.
<beach>
In Common Lisp, macros make it possible to create new operators that have a specific evaluation rule.
<beach>
So in most languages, it would be impossible to create a new operator like for instance IFNOT that reverses the order of the THEN and ELSE branches. But in Common Lisp it is trivial to create such a thing.
<beach>
loginoob: Also, some languages such as C claim to have macros, but those macros are text transformers, making it very hard to create robust and correct macros.
<beach>
Common Lisp macros work on code as S-expressions which is how Common Lisp defines the internal representation of code.
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<loginoob>
Why does "one can view macros as" take me to google maps showing my location?
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<loginoob>
Did i ask a stupid question
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<beach>
loginoob: It was off topic.
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<aeth>
Lisp has syntax made from s-expressions (with lists made from conses; macros follow directly from this), symbols, a read-eval-print-loop, garbage collection, closures, the numeric tower, etc.
<aeth>
Some things like REPLs, GC, and closures are in most languages now so they're not really notable features anymore.
<loginoob>
Then why not every language says 0.1+0.2 /= 0.3
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<beach>
loginoob: That's a very different question.
<loginoob>
Ok
<beach>
loginoob: Usually, languages store those numbers as floating point binary.
<beach>
loginoob: That is true for Common Lisp as well.
<beach>
Since 0.1 and 0.2 do not have exact representations in binary floating point, the sum will not be exactly 0.3.
<loginoob>
Ok
<beach>
loginoob: When we say "rational numbers" in relation to Common Lisp, we mean numbers that are stored as such, with exact values, so that 1/3 * 3 = 1 exactly as an integer.
<aeth>
You can express any rational, as long as you're willing to store it as arbitrarily long data. e.g. (/ (expt 2 320) (1+ (expt 2 320))) produces a very long rational number in CL. Try to convert it to a double float and you'll just get 1.0d0 because it's too big for the finite representation of double float.
<aeth>
Afaik, a rational is just two bignums.
<aeth>
(Well, in this case.)
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<Shinmera>
A rational is two integers, which may or may not be bignums.
<aeth>
Yes.
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<porky11>
hi
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<JuanDaugherty>
yello
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<phoe>
hey
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<JuanDaugherty>
ftr, there are a number of famous relations between two integers, so it's not just, it's them and that relation
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<Shinmera>
Xach: I updated the readme with an additional note about it. Hopefully it's clearer now.
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<Xach>
tusen tack
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<Shinmera>
Thanks for the feedback :)
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<Xach>
Shinmera: why is restore needed?
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<Xach>
Shinmera: not mechanically, but theoretically
<Shinmera>
Without it it won't know which identifier to use. If it used a default one, your application would clash with others.
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<Xach>
Oh. I was using keys as namespaces.
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<Shinmera>
The idea is that you use (restore :awesome-xach-app) and someone else would use (restore :my-thingy). If you need separate configurations for separate parts of your project you can also use symbols like (restore 'awesome-xach-app:global) (restore 'awesome-xach-app:secrets) or what.
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<Shinmera>
Colleen: look up ubiquitous designator-pathname
<Xach>
So it has to be called before every use of value to make sure you're in the right context?
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<Shinmera>
If, in your lisp image, you're the only one using ubiquitous, you can just call RESTORE at load and executable startup time. That's all.
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<Xach>
Well, you mentioned separate parts of my project - those could live in the same image, right?
<Xach>
the ...:global and ...:secrets part
<Shinmera>
Yes. In that case you would use WITH-STORAGE (keeping different storage objects in separate variables for instance) or WITH-LOCAL-STORAGE around the value calls.
<Shinmera>
Err, actually WITH-STORAGE is the wrong thing in this case
<Shinmera>
But if you want to avoid excessive reloading you'd keep the storage in global variables and use that as the :storage argument to WITH-LOCAL-STORAGE
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<Xach>
And you wouldn't want to have it be part of a library without being careful
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<Xach>
documenting and guarding against messing with the library user's storage state
<Shinmera>
If you use with-local-storage in a library you'll be fine unless someone else purposefully uses the same designator as you.
<Shinmera>
Though I'm having a hard time imagining a library that uses ubiquitous...
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<wallmonitorcable>
I like what people have said about Lisp, but then when I looked at the actual syntax of some example programs, it just looks weird to me.
<beach>
wallmonitorcable: Sorry to hear that.
<Shinmera>
That's because you're not used to it.
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<jackdaniel>
wallmonitorcable: look at non-latin based alphabet
<Shinmera>
Xach: Though the pathname representation is unfortunate on SBCL.
<Shinmera>
And perhaps it should be a note instead.
<jackdaniel>
(given you use latin-based one) - it looks weird, no?
<beach>
Vietnamese looks weird at first, but when you know it, you see that it is much simpler than most western languages.
<beach>
wallmonitorcable: If you have any questions, feel free to ask them. But there is no point in trying to convince #lisp participants that it looks weird.
<scymtym>
Shinmera: UIOP:NATIVE-NAMESTRING may be more appropriate when presenting pathnames to users
<jackdaniel>
usually in natural language you say: "add one and two" (not "one plus two"), so s-expressions are closer to natural language eiter
<jackdaniel>
(+ 1 2) vs (1 + 2)
<Shinmera>
scymtym: Yeah. I'll change it to just NAMESTRING though, as I don't want to depend on UIOP in Ubiquitous
<jackdaniel>
either*
<Shinmera>
Hrm
<scymtym>
Shinmera: that may signal an error
<pjb>
wallmonitorcable: but: 4- since we use lisp to manipulate programs, notably in macros, it is more useful to keep the programs represented as data than as code. Also, if you cover it with some program syntax, you will have more difficulty in macros to see the correspondance between source code and the data you manipulate and generate in macros.
<Shinmera>
there's no standard condition subclass that is useful for "notes"
<Shinmera>
right?
<pjb>
wallmonitorcable: and this is the reason why lispers keep writing data, instead of writing code.
<Shinmera>
What I'm signalling isn't severe enough for a warning, but isn't about style either, so style-warning seems inappropriate.
<Xach>
Shinmera: why should I have to know about this situation at all?
<Xach>
Shinmera: isn't it normal to create these all the time?
<Shinmera>
You might want to know about it if you want to run something special for a fresh system.
<Shinmera>
Where a configuration file does not yet exist.
<Xach>
What would that tell me?
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<Xach>
How might I change my behavior?
<Shinmera>
You might decide to, say, run a setup wizard.
<Xach>
To do what?
<Shinmera>
Gather the proper initial configuration for the system
<Xach>
So the procedure would be to handle the warning and do initialization?
<Shinmera>
For instance.
<wallmonitorcable>
Hmm...
<Shinmera>
Though, again, since it's not really a problem as you note, having the condition be a warning seems too severe
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<Xach>
Shinmera: one option would be to try to retrieve critical entries and initialize if absent...it seems like knowing the underlying storage system state is not something I want to mess with, much.
<pjb>
wallmonitorcable: https://codeshare.io/5wO0Yp Notice how the first sexp represents data. Notice how the second sexp has exactly the same structure, but seems to represent code.
<Xach>
Or maybe a configuration-exists-p? I'm not sure...
<wallmonitorcable>
If it weren't for the fact that Lisp is one of the earliest programming languages, I would claim that I think it seems "different for the sake of being different", but PHP/C/JS/etc. seems much more "straight-forward" still, for somebody who never has programmed in their life. At least it seems that way to me.
<pjb>
wallmonitorcable: notice also that you could define functions named person, name, surname and age, and the first sexp which was data, now can be interpred as code!
<pjb>
wallmonitorcable: this is the magic of lisp.
<Shinmera>
Xach: Sure, there's other ways to do the same thing. I just see it as a potentially useful piece of information.
<Xach>
wallmonitorcable: what seems "natural" is generally a condition of what you learn first.
<wallmonitorcable>
pjb: That URL seems to be empty?
<wallmonitorcable>
Xach: I suppose.
<wallmonitorcable>
Oh. It loaded afterwards.
<Shinmera>
wallmonitorcable: I'm quite sure people from different countries have very different ideas about which natural languages are "straight forward"
<Xach>
wallmonitorcable: if someone has never programmed in their life, lisp is probably as natural as anything else.
<beach>
"natural" :)
<pjb>
wallmonitorcable: ok.
<ckonstanski>
Programmers must be adaptable. Any programmer who clings to what they learned first is a crappy programmer indeed. (:two-cents)
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<Shinmera>
Xach: I think for now I'll change it from being a warning to just being a condition. How does that sound?
<beach>
ckonstanski: Unfortunately, crappy programmers are the norm in the software industry.
<pjb>
wallmonitorcable: notice that the actual lisp source code, is not the textual representation, but the data structures, the cons cells and lisp atoms represented in those diagrams.
<pjb>
wallmonitorcable: the actual lisp source text could be very different.
<wallmonitorcable>
I guess what feels so frustrating to me is that if I were to become rich tomorrow, and I hired some Lisp expert and had a Lisp machine doing important work, I couldn't "glance at" or vet the code because it uses a completely different philosophy (from what I can gather) to what I'm used to. Many languages that I don't know still have some sort of obvious "structure" which seems to abstracted away in Lisp. I'm not saying that Lisp is bad -- I'm
<wallmonitorcable>
merely fascinated with how different and "exotic" programming languages exist and are still in use after many decades.
<Xach>
wallmonitorcable: I think that is just superificial unfamiliarity that goes away very quickly with study.
<pjb>
wallmonitorcable: if you were rich, you'd get yourself a lisp teacher to know the language of the rich men (like, eg. Paul Graham).
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<wallmonitorcable>
I suppose.
<Shinmera>
Haskell, Caml & co. are also very different to C & co and both are in wide use today.
<beach>
wallmonitorcable: A warning: if you decide to learn it, there is a big risk that you won't want to go back to your previous languages.
<ckonstanski>
Ain't that the truth
<wallmonitorcable>
:-)
<beach>
wallmonitorcable: That said, if you DO decide you want to learn Common Lisp, then we can give you some advice about the programming tools and some books to read. We can also give you feedback on your code.
<ckonstanski>
My first book was Practical Common Lisp. As a beginner I found it incredibly helpful. And it's free online.
<wallmonitorcable>
Well, as much as I can find code beautiful, I've mostly ceased trying to find beauty in (practical) code because of the enormous difficulties of actually making the code in any language actually generate money in the end, so that takes up 99.99999% of my focus/time/energy. I'll admit I'm very familiar with PHP (or my little subset of it, anyway) and while it's almost universally hated, I find that I can theoretically do "anything" with it, but it
<wallmonitorcable>
doesn't matter as the money issue by far overshadows my urge to achieve "perfect code beauty".
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<Shinmera>
I write code that is both not something I hate to look at, and works.
<Shinmera>
But hey. If you can stand PHP, and money is all you care for, good for you
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<wallmonitorcable>
My point was that I don't even make any money with PHP. :/
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<Shinmera>
Fortunately business practises are outside of the scope of this channel.
<ckonstanski>
Who knows if they even looked at any lisps (like clojure which is used a lot at Apple).
<jmercouris>
wallmonitorcable: you won't make any money as a lisp developer, go learn a popular language
<ckonstanski>
Be sure to choose something that is webscale.
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<jmercouris>
ckonstanski: like mongodb?
<ckonstanski>
(boom)
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<wallmonitorcable>
I like the idea of a "Lisp machine"; dedicated hardware to run only Lisp programs; no bloated and insecure OS and stuff like that.
<wallmonitorcable>
Not sure if any of those are used still, though.
<Shinmera>
A lisp machine still has an os
<beach>
wallmonitorcable: You can run Lisp on a bare metal PC. Much faster than dedicated hardware.
<Xach>
the lisp machines that companies actually used had a pretty big and extensive OS that some people complained about.
<Xach>
(because it was so big)
<ckonstanski>
I have not made a study of lisp machines. In my uninformed mind I think that they existed because commodity pc hardware was not powerful enough to run lisp back in the day. Now that it is, there's no market for it.
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<pjb>
wallmonitorcable: That said, there are existance proofs, it's possible to make money with lisp, and even a lot of money.
<jmercouris>
Sure, that's true, but highly improbable
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<Bike>
i don't think there were a lot of commodity PCs when lisp machines were big
<beach>
ckonstanski: Correct, but that has changed. And nowadays any widely used processor can run Lisp very well.
<ckonstanski>
Or you can get a job where you have a certain amount of freedom in language selection, like in a position where you mostly work alone and write smallish programs. I've snuck a lot of lisp into the workplace this way.
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<ckonstanski>
If you learn clojure (I feel dirty now) it's even easier to sneak in. The packaged runnable is indistinguishable from java (a JAR).
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<wallmonitorcable>
Well, it gives me some what of a cozy feeling just to know that Lisp is still being actively used by people. I like it when old technology and ideas are still in use. Especially if they are superior to some "modern replacement". I can't stand modern computers in general, likely due to being jaded from both Windows and FreeBSD/Linux and how bloated and insecure and inane they are, so I often like to look back to early computer systems where they
<wallmonitorcable>
had no choice but to be smart about things.
<jmercouris>
let's not romanticize the past
<jmercouris>
I would not enjoy installing old versions of ubuntu for example
<jmercouris>
nor did I enjoy the absolutely terrible hardware support, update issues, etc
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<wallmonitorcable>
jmercouris: Ubuntu is the Linux garbage I complain about? Not old?
<jmercouris>
hardware of the past was not "better", it just did less things, anyways, this isn't really on topic
<wallmonitorcable>
Alright...
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<pjb>
Well, the problem is that if you're connected to the Internet, you better not run old systems, for security reasons.
<pjb>
Otherwise, if you can isolate your computer, you may have all the fun you want.
<ckonstanski>
Pivoting back to lisp: we value open-source because it is all about choices. If you choose to delve into lisp, there is help to be had, both here and in a growing body of excellent reading material.
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ckonstanski: the user left
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<sabrac>
Is there a way to correctly conditionally compile methods depending on whether a library is loaded?
<_death>
assuming your code is also in a system, you can have a system that depends on both, or use asdf-system-connections
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<rk[ghost]>
i found 'postmodern', but before i play around.. i thought i would just ask.. any preferences on cl library for interfacing with postgresql?
<oleo>
#+(asdf:require-system "bla")
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<sabrac>
rk[ghost]: Hello. I am the new maintainer of postmodern, so possibly opinionated.
<Xach>
rk[ghost]: postmodern is v. good
<rk[ghost]>
sabrac: well, that is good enough for me. as i imagine if i have specific questions, you'll have reliable answers ;P
<rk[ghost]>
Xach: aye aye.
<sabrac>
I am in the process of updating postmodern to handle a lot of the newer postgresql features if you intend on using those
<rk[ghost]>
i don't.
<rk[ghost]>
to be honest, i am not really familiar with postgres
<rk[ghost]>
i tend to keep a 5-ft pole away from sql
<rk[ghost]>
however, a friend wants to learn databases, and i figure it is probably about time i learn postgres as it seems like the best open source SQL db
<phoe>
"nobody ever got fired for choosing postgres"
<rk[ghost]>
i am familiar (although in my past) with MySQL and i have done SQLlite for a couple of toys.
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<rk[ghost]>
although, inner/outer joins and all that jazz completely escapes me, i recall how to do general queries (maybe) and how to design the tables themselves.
<rk[ghost]>
i appreciate the linkage.
<rk[ghost]>
that'll get me rolling along:)
<rk[ghost]>
although, i have a feeling my friend with want to use C# or java... X)
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<ckonstanski>
I have only used clsql. I'm interested in postmodern, but I've written too many apps that had to connect to multiple databases of differing types (within the same app). That's where clsql shines because it supports many database engines.
<attila_lendvai>
there's also hu.dwim.rdbms although it only has one thoroughly tested backend, which is for postgres. oracle has also been used in production by another team
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<attila_lendvai>
so, how do I touch a file? is there anything simpler than a with-open-file for writing?
<phoe>
attila_lendvai: I don't think so
<phoe>
with-open-file :if-does-not-exist :create
<phoe>
and possibly :if-exists :error
<attila_lendvai>
didn't you mean :direction :output :if-exists :append :if-does-not-exist :error (it assumes the file exists and needs to be touch'd)
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<phoe>
attila_lendvai: possibly
<phoe>
I haven't used w-o-f in a while
<attila_lendvai>
damn. w-o-f :direction :append doesn't update the file-write-date
<oleo>
:supersede ?
<oleo>
:overwrite ?
<attila_lendvai>
I need the contents to remain intact. I only want to update the last modified time
<ckonstanski>
Uses /bin/sh as the shell I think. Careful on systems that actually use /bin/sh as opposed to symlinking it to /bin/bash.
<attila_lendvai>
I'd be ashamed if I put that code into CFFI
<attila_lendvai>
...or any other public code under my name
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<attila_lendvai>
this is incredibly annoying... I can't even find a kludge to do it without leaving the standard. there's not even (setf file-length)...
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<attila_lendvai>
I ended up using UIOP's with-staging-pathname and copy the file contents to a new file. *shakes head*
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<ckonstanski>
Maybe you hate the idea of (uffi:run-shell-command) but looking at its implementation might provide some ideas.
<Bike>
does it not just run touch
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<attila_lendvai>
yes, I hate the idea of exec'ing a binary for something as simple as touch'ing a file. I hate it, and I also want it to be on record... :)
<pjb>
If you have uffi, then you can implement anything using syscalls.
<Bike>
so you'd want to call uhhhhh futimens(2)
<Bike>
that's what touch is doing, anyway
<attila_lendvai>
syscalls, except when you're on windows... I don't want to go down on that road. it's much more bumpy than a spurious copy-file
<Bike>
probably
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<pjb>
attila_lendvai: you can also call MS-Windows functions. Just use #+windows #-windows ;-)
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<rme>
ccl::%utimes for unix is a lot simpler than the one for Windows...
<attila_lendvai>
sure. and if my leg hurts, I might as well just cut it off, right? :)
<pjb>
attila_lendvai: not necessarily, your phatom leg might hurt as well…
* attila_lendvai
groans :)
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