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<dtornabene>
so am I correct in thinking that Clack only uses roswell for the commandline launching script(s)?
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<PuercoPop>
dtornabene: if you are wondering that if you need to use roswell to use clack, then the answer is no
<dtornabene>
sweet! that was indeed that implicit question, thanks for answering!
<dtornabene>
PuercoPop:
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<aeth>
(not (mismatch #(1 2 3) #(4 5 6 1 2 3) :start2 3 :end2 6)) will generally be more efficient than this, right? (equalp #(1 2 3) (subseq #(4 5 6 1 2 3) 3 6))
<aeth>
Is there another way that's even better?
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<Bike>
loop over the elements yourself
<White_Flame>
hold these digits as a fixnum and mask
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<Bike>
parallelize it
<aeth>
I guess I could use define-vop to SIMD it.
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<defunkydrummer>
aeth: equalp is overkill here, if they are fixnums i think eq would do the job. Also, i'd rather explicitely create simple-vectors of type fixnum, instead of using the #() reader macro.
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<defunkydrummer>
aeth: (eq if you want to loop over the elements yourself.) I might be wrong, though.
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<xificurC>
does anyone know how to see the contents of a Lisp_Object in gdb?
<xificurC>
I'm fighting a weird emacs crash, it just stops with exit code 15. A fresh install on a freshly installed ubuntu 18.04. Pure emacs runs fine but adding spacemacs to it crashes with this weird error. I'm surfing the stacktrace in gdb to find out what's causing it. http://ix.io/1aoa
<xificurC>
there's a call to call_process and I'm trying to find out what the arguments are
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<edgar-rft>
xificurC, in #emacs you might have better chances for an answer than here
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<xificurC>
edgar-rft: hehe, autopilot made me join here. Excuse the mistake
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<dim>
that's the function used internally by hash-table IIRC
<jmercouris>
thanks for the tip
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<_death>
there's no guarantee of a unique value for each string.. in fact it's quite the opposite, unless you have a bounded set of strings so you can build a perfect hash function for them
<jmercouris>
agreed, but it's probably good enough for my case
<jmercouris>
I will only have about 10 questions at a time per survey, the liklihood of collision is very low
<_death>
sxhash is not a good idea for this case, because it's implementation dependent
<jmercouris>
it is for my own application that I will deploy though
<jmercouris>
though I guess others could use it with mixed results on other implementations
<_death>
so what's the point of hashing them instead of just using some autoincrement
<jmercouris>
damnit, maybe I should use ironclad
<jmercouris>
autoincrement would require me to keep state in between the rendering and receipt of a request
<jmercouris>
sorry, I don't mean receipt of a request, I mean submission of a survey
<jmercouris>
though that could be fixed with some routing so that the submit button contains information about which survey the user is submitting
<jmercouris>
so yeah, autoincrement could also work
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<_death>
how would you go from hash to question without state?
<jmercouris>
I was planning on doing a search
<jmercouris>
it wasn't well thought out in hindsight
<jmercouris>
I just got tunnel vision, should have spent more time thinking about it instead of x-ying myself
<_death>
if your questions are kept in order, an index into them would make an ID as well.. if you only append questions it could be ok
<jmercouris>
that could work as well
<jmercouris>
let me first do a really basic implementation that works for me, and if anyone else ever uses the software, I'll consider making it more robust
<shrdlu68>
jmercouris: sxhash
<jmercouris>
shrdlu68: Indeed, but I'll be pursuing a different solution, I hadn't thought about my problem well at all, thanks anyway!
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<loke>
jmercouris: "unique" and "hash" are not compatible.
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<jmercouris>
loke: yes, when reducing the amount of data, it is not possible to be unique
<loke>
jmercouris: When _increasing_ you mean?
<jmercouris>
because the "hash space" is smaller than the "data space"
<jmercouris>
No, I mean decreasing
<loke>
I mean, for a 64-bit integer, the hash (the integer itself) is unique :-)
<loke>
Expand that to arbitrary sized integers and the hashes are no longer unique.
<jmercouris>
Imagine this, every hash should ideally return a unique item with no collisions
<jmercouris>
if the sequence of possible hashes is less than the amount of possible items, it is impossible
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<_death>
the pigeonhole principle
<shrdlu68>
Principle of bijection.
<loke>
jmercouris: Exactly.
<loke>
jmercouris: Which means as you _increase_ the amount of data, the likelyhood of collisions goes up
<jmercouris>
anyways, I think we could count on no collisions for around 10 items
<jmercouris>
loke: I am talking about the LOSS of information when hashing
<loke>
jmercouris: I wouldn't.
<jmercouris>
so, I said, if we have some large piece of data, the more we reduce it during hashing, the more likely a collision
<loke>
jmercouris: So terminologyu configusion then. I kinda suspected tha.
<jmercouris>
yeah, abstract conversations can be difficult
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<loke>
If SXHASH returns a 32-bit number, you're going to have a roughly one-in-3000 chance of collision on a 4-element list.
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<jmercouris>
I think that's acceptable
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<_death>
I don't understand that statement.. what is a "chance of collision on a 4-element list"
<jmercouris>
now imagine hashing each of those values in the list
<_death>
if there are more than 2^32 possible 4-element lists, the probability of a collision is 1
<jmercouris>
Oh I see your question now
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<jmercouris>
_death: no, because the lists may all be duplicates
<jmercouris>
I am referring to a collision within the list, that is, of the elements in the list, will there be a collision amongst themselves, not amongst all members of all lists
<jmercouris>
so if I have 2^32 lists that are all (list "a" "b" "c" "d"), and it is known that the set "a" "b" "c" "d" does not produce a collision, then it would be fine
<_death>
jmercouris: next time I will M-x pedantic-mode
<jmercouris>
_death: are you calling me pedantic?
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<_death>
jmercouris: I think it's reasonable to assume that I meant distinct lists..
<jmercouris>
That's fine, but my problem spaces does not involve this many distinct lists
<jmercouris>
s/spaces/space
<jmercouris>
so, within the context of my problem, what are you suggesting, is *not* an issue
<_death>
jmercouris: at this point we're not talking about your problem?.. I guess we've reached offtopicness
<jmercouris>
If we are talking about a generalized problem, then your response make sense
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<jmercouris>
if we were talking about my actual problem, we can assume that no survey list will ever reach 2^32 questions long
<jmercouris>
which was my whole point
<_death>
jmercouris: but that's only for the best-case scenario where SXHASH is does its best to be a uniform hash
<jmercouris>
Still, do you think any reasonable survey will be over 100 elements?
<_death>
jmercouris: well, I already explained the issue with sxhash
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<shka>
jmercouris: benchmark on real data
<_death>
better off using crc32 or something :)
<jmercouris>
I don't need to benchmark, I'm not going to use any hashing
<jmercouris>
I'm going to use _death's later suggestion, incrementing
<shka>
ah, good
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<loke>
jmercouris: Actrually, accroding to the birthday paradox, the probability of two elements colliding is arougly sqrt(N). And remember that if you have more than two elements, you have to didivde that by (N-1)!
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<loke>
so for a 10-element list you have an overwhelming chance of collision
<loke>
oops.I I'm getting the numbers wrong
<jmercouris>
Yes, you definitely are
<loke>
but the chanche is still high
<jmercouris>
otherwise hashmaps would be useless over 10 elements
<jmercouris>
they would constantly be cherry picking or whatever to deal with that
<jmercouris>
nobody would ever use them and just stick to arrays
<jmercouris>
is it called cherry picking? I can't remember the strategies for dealing with collisions, it's been so long
<loke>
jmercouris: The probability of a collision for _two_ elements is definititely on the order of sqrt(2^32) for a 32-bit hash
<loke>
where I got it wrong was how this changes for more elemnts.
<dim>
does that ring a bell to anyone here: The symbol "*SYSTEM-DEFINITION-SEARCH-FUNCTIONS*" is not external in the ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM package.
<dim>
asdf 3.3.2 and sbcl 1.4.7
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<Ukari>
I have a 'funcallable/cc' and check it with (eq (type-of x) 'funcallable/cc). Then I use a lambda to wrap funcallable/cc, how could i check type of stuff inner the lambda eq funcallable/cc now?
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<Ukari>
could i define sth like the struct funcallable/cc that could called by (funcall x) directly
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<Ukari>
oh i get it, it is a class..
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<dim>
mmm, ql:bundle-systems isn't using the .asd version I want it to
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<Xach>
dim: how can you tell?
<dim>
because the list of :depends-on did change, and the newer items are not taken into account
<dim>
basically I'm makeing a bundle where I want to deal with what's in PWD, not what's in QL
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<dim>
that's what I want to do, not sure it should be the default, now that I think about it
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<dim>
FATAL error: system pgloader is out of date
<dim>
oh. that's news to me, never had that before.
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<dim>
it's ASDF/SESSION:CONSULT-ASDF-CACHE complaining now, in a call to ASDF/SYSTEM:SYSTEM-RELATIVE-PATHNAME, interesting
<dim>
(I'm using that for regression tests)
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<ldb>
sup
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<beach>
Good afternoon everyone!
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<oleo>
heya beach o/
<schweers>
Hi beach
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<kqr>
may or may not be the right place to ask: I use Emacs and SLIME, and evaluate things in SLIME with C-c C-c. this works for pretty much everything except (in-package :foo) declarations. is there a way to get it to work even with those?
<Bike>
what do you mean by it not working?
<kqr>
it does not change which package SLIME is in. I have to go over to that buffer and manually enter (in-package :foo) for the change to take effect
<Xach>
kqr: I use C-c ~ for that.
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<Xach>
It syncs the repl package with the file package
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<kqr>
hm. that's good. one problem down! but I have been dishonest with you. the full problem does not involve interactive use of SLIME. rather, it's an automated Org document export where Babel evaluates common lisp code and – apparently – does not respect (in-package :foo) either
<Xach>
I can't help with that one
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<kqr>
i think I solved it, though. apparently there's a parallel to C-c ~ in the Org export – a :package header argument
<Xach>
Cool
<kqr>
thanks for the useful tip, though, I have been missing something like C-c ~ but not bothered enough to find it!
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<Xach>
I have to say I use ,ch-p in the repl a lot more than C-c ~. But when I think of it I use it.
<schweers>
Xach: thank you for the tip with C-c ~. I did not know that, I always did C-c M-p, which can be annoying if one has packages foo and foo-test or foo and foo/test
* Xach
lives to serve
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<schweers>
I never used a comma command in the repl. does this make me a bad person/lisper?
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<Xach>
schweers: inefficient maybe? i find them very handy and use them 1000000 times per day
<schweers>
Xach: they are slime specific, right?
<Xach>
schweers: yes, but most repls have shortcuts like them
<schweers>
I’m asking because I want to find documentation on those
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<Xach>
it is part of slime, yes
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<schweers>
push-package looks funny. I don’t know if I’ll ever use it, but I’ll try to keep an eye out for when it may be useful
<schweers>
anyway, thanks for reminding me to look into this feature :)
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<antoszka>
I keep wanting to read *all* the current SLIME manual one day.
<antoszka>
I never did that :)
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<rumbler31>
antoszka: it doesn't take that long
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<ecraven>
you can even read all the source in a day, I think
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<ecraven>
sloccount says it's 18k lines of lisp code (though I don't know how many of those might be auto-generated)
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<mfiano>
Or, if you use Sly, sly-mrepl-sync
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<ealfonso`>
does anyone have any experience with websockets on CL? I've heard about hunchensockets and clws. any recommendation between the two?
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<loke>
I think I've started 1000 clients on one process. That worked.
<loke>
But it was running off a laptop and I wasn't able to saturate the connections. But the system worked.
<loke>
I'm using it for a web-chat application.
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<ealfonso`>
loke thanks, I'll give it a try.
<loke>
Good luch
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<loke>
hunchensocket is really easy to use
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<Xach>
I think people define "production" in curious ways sometimes
<Xach>
Like the word "professional"
<Xach>
Different things to different people and some are less flexible about needs and context.
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<drmeister>
What are the best resources for teaching a couple of undergraduates with little to no programming experience Common Lisp?
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<drmeister>
They are committed for the summer - they already have a working Common Lisp environment (Cando/Clasp in a jupyter notebook). Emacs is being installed today.
<Xach>
drmeister: I like Practical Common Lisp and Paradigms of AI Programming very much. The latter is dense but rewarding.
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<Josh_2>
drmeister: if programming noobs then gentle introduction to symbolic computation
<drmeister>
We've started with Practical Common Lisp and we have a copy of Land of Lisp - we have found a couple of web tutorials and we are running a boot camp.
<drmeister>
I'm casting about for other resources that I'm not aware of.
<drmeister>
Two of them are programming noobs, the other two have Python and C experience.
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<Josh_2>
When I was a nub I found PCL too hard, but Gentle introduction to symbolic computation was perfect when I had no programming experience
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<sjl>
I also recommend Gentle first, then Practical, then go make things for a while, then maybe PAIP or CLR
<ealfonso`>
I never read any Common Lisp book. I started with emacs lisp and the emacs lisp manual, which is very user and beginer friendly. It wasn't hard to transition to CL. I may still be a noob though
<Xach>
ealfonso`: i think it would be helpful to read common lisp books and code in that case.
<sjl>
also throw "watch the SICP lectures" somewhere in there. not strictly about CL, but still really helpful
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<Xach>
i wouldn't recommend being too awful literal in translating its lessons
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<antoszka>
From what I know now, I'd recommend starting with PAIP. Then using PCL (and Edi's excellent recipes) as a *practical* guide/reference.
<antoszka>
Gentle might be a little too gentle for some.
<antoszka>
Scheme related stuff (PAIP lectures, * Schemer books) is good, too, but doesn't pertain to Common Lisp that much.
<antoszka>
The similarity is very superficial.
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<Xach>
I think it can be helpful to learn about new ways of thinking about problems and solutions
<phoe>
+1 for PCL and Book of Edi
<phoe>
Also be sure to throw them at #lisp and #clnoobs
<antoszka>
Oh yes.
<antoszka>
They might have to learn IRC first ;)
<phoe>
IRC is simple
<phoe>
It's just a multiplayer notepad
<antoszka>
But it's not hipchat.
<antoszka>
Nor Slack.
<jmercouris>
they can use IRC via the web client
<jmercouris>
it's not challenging to learn IRC, if they can't learn it, they won't have much luck with CL
<phoe>
^
<phoe>
I giggled reading this
<phoe>
no, seriously, freenode's webchat is good enough for starters
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<ealfonso`>
Xach what if you look at a random sample of my code https://pastebin.com/GCKGpn2B and tell me how bad you think it is and whether I still need to read common lisp books?
<jmercouris>
ealfonso`: That's not a measure of "skill"
<jmercouris>
a measure of skill would be simple, are you able to do anything you'd like to do with the language in a timely manner?
<Josh_2>
ealfonso`: dropping )) onto the next line EEEEEW
<Xach>
ealfonso`: I think reading books and code would helpl
<Xach>
help, rather.
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<ealfonso`>
Josh_2 yeah, I did that while making lots of changes to a defstruct, I wanted git commits to be one-line changes, then forgot to close it.
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<jmercouris>
I have no way of judging that, nor is it my place to, I'm not an employer considering you nor am I condeming
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<jmercouris>
I think if you are happy, that is the best reward
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<ealfonso`>
jmercouris I'm happy
<jmercouris>
then you are doing just fine :)
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<jmercouris>
don't worry about whether you are "pro" or not, when it comes time, and you need to learn more to get something done, you will learn it
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<ealfonso`>
jmercouris I just don't think reading dense programming books is necessarily always the best approach. some people might learn more quickly by doing
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<jmercouris>
I wouldn't describe the books on Lisp as dense, but they aren't really engaging
<jmercouris>
I find the literature on programming books in general to be rather dry
<comborico1611>
As long as I don't get lost, I consider the programming book a win. :-) Going to lunch!
<Xach>
If you rely only on learning by doing and teaching yourself, you will have gaps. It is possible to learn on your own and accomplish many great things. But I think you can do greater things by reading some other stuff.
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<comborico1611>
(That is very true for playing guitar, too.)
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<jmercouris>
there will be gaps in your knowledge only if you learn *just enough* to accomplish what you set out to do. If you explore the topics of things that you use, you shouldn't have many gaps
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<araly>
hello everyone, I'm having a question about CLOS, using the lispcord library if that helps. There's a class called guild which has a id slot, and I have instances of a class called available-guild, which inherits from the guild class. I'm trying to access the id slot of my object, but it says that the slot is missing from the object
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<Bike>
sounds like it shouldn't happen. maybe paste a bit of code?
<araly>
all inherited slots are accessible from the same accessor right ?
<jmercouris>
Yes
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<araly>
(slot-value (lc:guild msg) 'id) is my bit of code, (lc:guild msg) returns an instance of available-guild
<Bike>
are you sure id is in the right package?
<White_Flame>
are you sure 'id is from the right package?
<araly>
the class available-guild inherits from the class guild, and the class guild has a (id :initarg :id :type snowflake :accessor id) slot
<sjl>
araly: what they said. you should be using the accessor function though, not calling `slot-value` directly
<sjl>
(lc:id (lc:guild msg))
<araly>
I'm calling 'id because that's what I see in the :accessor value
<jmercouris>
is there an echo in here?
<araly>
okay I'll try that
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<sjl>
araly: if you're not importing the `id` symbol from that package, then you're trying to effectively do (slot-value ... 'some-other-package:id) instead of (slot-value ... 'lc:id)
<araly>
there's no (lc:id)
<Bike>
:accessor makes a reader and writer function. you're not using those, you're using slot-value
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<araly>
okay, I thought slot-value could get the value from the reader accesso
<araly>
accessor*
<sjl>
slot-value is a low-level function. if there's an accessor, you should generally prefer using that.
<Bike>
the only "reader accessor" is a function
<araly>
which function is that, something from CLOS or something that should exist in the package ?
<jmercouris>
araly: it's usually defined in the defclass
<Bike>
the function would be called id
<jmercouris>
if you look at the definition there should be :accessor attribute
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<Bike>
that's what :accessor id means
<nirved>
if it's really needed (slot-value (lc:guild msg) 'lc::id)
<Bike>
slot-value uses the slot name instead
<jmercouris>
so you'd do something like (id some-object)
<sjl>
araly: I don't know what the lc package is. Is it a nickname you're defining for one of the lispcord packages?
<jmercouris>
to retrieve some-object's id
<araly>
lc is a shortcut for the lispcord package I think
<jmercouris>
you think? whose code is this? someone elses?
<araly>
yeah I see that, that's where I looked the accessor up, but there isn't anything more in the defclass guild
<sjl>
that's in the lispcord.classes package. it defines the guild class with a slot with name `id` in that package, and accessor named `id` in that package
<sjl>
Defining that accessor means there will be a function called `id` in the `lispcord.classes` package that will take a guild and give you its id
<Bike>
the :accessor specifies that there should be reader and writer functions, and that they should use the given symbol in their names
<araly>
hum
<sjl>
by "should be" Bike means "it will ensure there are" not "you need to define manually"
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<Bike>
yes.
<sjl>
(lc:id (lc:guild msg)) should work. does it not? can you paste the error?
<sjl>
also wow this code is hard to read because of tabs instead of spaces
<araly>
okay, it worked, I don't really understand why though, is the lc:id a function that exists because of the :accessor, and it knows that it's has to be the id from an available-guild instance, because it has that in parameters ?
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<jmercouris>
sjl: C-x h - C-i
<araly>
so what is the slot-value for, because it works for a class I have created, but where I don't accessors. Should I write accessors and use this instead ?
<jmercouris>
araly: Yes, you should write with accessors
<sjl>
when you say (defclass foo () ((some-slot :accessor some-accessor))) lisp will create the class with a slot named some-slot. It will also create (if it doesn't already exist) a generic function called some-accessor, and will define a method on some-accessor for members of class foo
<sjl>
by convention, a lot of people use the same symbol to name the slot and the accessor function
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<jmercouris>
araly: I think it would be a good idea to stop what you are doing, and read about CLOS
<araly>
okay, is there a naming convention for accessors ?
<jmercouris>
that should give you a basic understanding
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<araly>
thanks people, I've been blocked on this for a little while now ^^
<sjl>
If you want a really good intro to CLOS, Keene's book is a good resource. It's worth spending a while getting the basics down.
<araly>
roger
<sjl>
(Object Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS)
<sjl>
It's a pretty short book, well written too.
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<sjl>
There are PDFs floating around of it, unsure how legal they are. I own two paper copies because I bought a second while I was in grad school rather than shipping my copy I left at home across the ocean.
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<sjl>
jmercouris: whatever those letters are, github dot com doesn't support them
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<araly>
lisp is a language I learn on my own for fun, so I have a more try and read when you can't approach, I think it's time to read a bit further than just to be able to keep going ^^
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<jmercouris>
sjl: copy/paste into a local buffer. select all, c-x h, c-i indent
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<sjl>
jmercouris: those keystrokes also don't work in vim
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<jmercouris>
sjl: sure, type :q, then when you drop back into the terminal, type in emacs to get a sensible environment
<sjl>
I could pipe to lispindent but it's just less effort to read the weird indentation
<sjl>
jmercouris: you forgot the <cr> there bud
<jmercouris>
Ah, yes :P
<jmercouris>
you mean <RET>
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<White_Flame>
is this the most compatible/safe way of getting the directory of a file? (make-pathname :defaults filename :name nil :type nil)
<jmercouris>
that's how I do it
<White_Flame>
took me a while to converge on that, still seems kind of indirect
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<jmercouris>
I didn't think of it myself, I saw someone else do it, and just copied them
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<White_Flame>
I have some old cygwin path support in my lisp build tools. With the various linux subsystems in newer windows, and VMs being more popular, do you think cygwin usage is going to drop away?
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<jmercouris>
I would agree with that statement
<jmercouris>
you could look at google trends to get an idea
<jmercouris>
if you expand the graph date range, the trend is very clear
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<ZigPaw>
for me WSL superseded Cygwin on all windows machines I use. It is just plainly easier to use as I can leverage all of the software packaged in ubuntu and not to worry if something will compile under cygwin.
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<ZigPaw>
and Emacs (latest snapshot) works really good under it.
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<aeth>
I thought WSL isn't graphical? I know Emacs outside of the terminal has more features, like more colors available for better syntax highlighting, and PDF reading.
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<White_Flame>
I'm doing build scripts from a very raw environment, can't depend on libs being loaded yet
<jasom>
White_Flame: well you can copy the source-code for that then. It's a single .lisp file to load it as well.
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<dtornabene>
so I've got a library (cl-async) with a bugfix that doesn't seem to have migrated up to a new package yet, i.e. the fixed library isn't available on quicklisp yet
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<dtornabene>
my question is: should I download the fixed library from github and just install it via the local-projects mechanism?
<sjl>
that's generally what I do
<dtornabene>
cool
<sjl>
don't forget step 2: forget you did this until six months later when it breaks something because you're running an old version
<dtornabene>
ha
<sjl>
I should clean out my local-projects every time I update the quicklisp dist, but I forget
<dtornabene>
its like the third thing to go wrong loading another library and I'm getting perilously close to saying "yeah, nah....."
<dtornabene>
i forget as well
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* Xach
uses ql:where-is-system a lot as a result
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<Xach>
It would be interesting (and easy to implement) to have an easy way to see local projects that shadow quicklisp projects.
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<dtornabene>
that would be interestin
<dtornabene>
i didn't even know about that command, super cool
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<dtornabene>
irony of it is that I had the quicklisp source queued up in another window to do some reading specifically to see what other commands there were that I haven't learned yet and I had to spend time trying to get another library to load
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<didi>
Heh, I'm having a brain fart. So (loop for fn in (loop for i to 3 collect (lambda () i)) collect (funcall fn)) evals to (4 4 4 4), but I want (0 1 2 3), i.e. I want the thunk to have the value of 'i' when it was created, not a reference to 'i'. What to do?
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<Bike>
(let ((x i)) (lambda () x))
<Bike>
it's a pretty obscure and ambiguous point about what closures actually allocate
<didi>
Bike: Ah. I tried (lambda () (let ((x i)) x)) and I failed.
<didi>
This is interesting.
<Bike>
the basic idea is that LOOP will create just one binding, and repeatedly modify it
<didi>
Bike: Thank you.
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