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<loke>
Is there a reasonably widely-available mechanism to find the arglist of a function?
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<loke>
There is an SBCL-specific call in the CL-CLTL2 package, but is there some library that attempts to expose this?
<jackdaniel>
there is a portability library trivial-arguments
<loke>
ah
<loke>
Sounds good
<jackdaniel>
however it has this "artistic license", I don't know what that means
<jackdaniel>
(and what are the implications)
<loke>
jackdaniel: Similar to Apache license, if I';m not mistaken
<loke>
Isn't it the license used for Perl?
<jackdaniel>
I don't know and at this moment I'm not particularily interested in examining it
<loke>
jackdaniel: a reasonable stance
<jackdaniel>
according to spdx it is not a libre license, so I'd personally avoid it (https://spdx.org/licenses/)
<jackdaniel>
ftr, apache is different along that axis
<jackdaniel>
sorry, 2.0 is libre, I've read it wrong
<loke>
Yeah, I just read the license
<loke>
Seems reasonable
<loke>
It seems if I change it and distibute the changed version I need to change the package name. I can live with that.
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<jeosol>
morning guys/gals
<beach>
Hello jeosol.
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<jeosol>
I have recently tried to setup an ec2 instance manually CL, it was a pain. Does anyone have an automated setup?
<jeosol>
morning beach
<jeosol>
primary I use SBCL and had to bootstrap it with CCL, I must be doing something wrong, or not aware of betters ways to set this up
<JuanDaugherty>
there's a thing for that (besides quicklisp) roswell or something like that
<_death>
use docker?
<jeosol>
I would need a better way, I want to essentially, push my setup to the bare aws ec2 and have things almost good to go (of course push lisp code, etc)
<JuanDaugherty>
normal thing would be to use the distro's sbcl then build current with that
<jeosol>
I have data, other executables (some to run with wine), files, etc to be able to run. Some dude on aws reddit suggested I set up on instance, take a snapshot, then I can replicate that instance. It has been a pain to set up one
<jeosol>
Besides setting up SBCL, quicklisp etc, I have to copy over some directories (with data), some other executables, and other minor stuff. e.g., have python available for some ML stuff.
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<jeosol>
I would like to have a clean way to do this, even if a bit painful to setup. I will then create other instances of this setup for use later. This is my use case.
<JuanDaugherty>
yeah roswell, on github
<jeosol>
_death: Thanks for the suggestion. at this time, I am not a docker expert, and it is something I am trying to learn, had it recommended a few times.
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<shrdlu68>
jeosol: ansible?
<jackdaniel>
roswell was notriously buggy for me (I had 3 approaches to it)
<jackdaniel>
putting aside lack of ability to install custom (hand-build lisp) it had problems with installing implementations supplied by itself
<jackdaniel>
jeosol: when you download SBCL release tarball you may extract it and call install.sh; prebuilt x86-64 binaries are supplied
<JuanDaugherty>
i've not actually used it and i only actually use the tarball + ql
<jackdaniel>
s/supplied/included/
<jeosol>
I spent so much time trying to install SBCL on the bare ec2 machine, tried cmucl (different versions, had errors), eventually ccl worked. then quicklisp, ..., I rather spend some time on a easier, less error prone set up now
<JuanDaugherty>
(plus the distros sbcl)
<jackdaniel>
jeosol: I don't know why your instance doesn't work, but I'm succesfully using there extracted sbcl tarball with run_sbcl.sh script (without installing whatsoever)
<jeosol>
jackdaniel: yes, I did that intially, but when I run, I was getting some pid error main() function, and landing in ldb debugger or something
<JuanDaugherty>
it should just be a few command from a new ec2 instance
<JuanDaugherty>
apt-get install sbcl
<jeosol>
jackdaniel: not sure, that setup you described worked on my machine
<JuanDaugherty>
then run the sbcl make.sh from the tarball
<JuanDaugherty>
*commands
<jackdaniel>
jeosol: maybe you assign too little of ram to the instance?
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<jackdaniel>
or something in this spirit
<JuanDaugherty>
maybe recreate the instance and start over?
<jeosol>
jackdaniel: I see
<jeosol>
JuanDua...: haha
<jeosol>
oh men, I spent last few hours running around this
<jeosol>
I have sbcl working on now.
<JuanDaugherty>
don't install slime from the distro, i've never figure out how that's supposed to work
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<JuanDaugherty>
*figured
<shrdlu68>
It oughtn't be painful at all.
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<jeosol>
I copied slime from my local setup, I don't plan to do much remote coding though (hopefully). Just need to move setup, run code there
<jackdaniel>
jeosol: what was the problem then?
<shrdlu68>
jeosol: You could just compile to executable binaries.
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<jeosol>
jackdaniel: SBCL works now, but the sbcl binary option was landing in ldb debugger with some main() functionstuff .
<jeosol>
I was getting error on line 750 of that link.
<jeosol>
shrdlu68: not sure I mentioned this, I eventually use the source and compiled with ccl
<JuanDaugherty>
*apt-get, yum, whatever
<jeosol>
basically, because of the huge dependencies for my setup, I want to have a way to automate most of the work
<shrdlu68>
jeosol: I meant that you could deploy your app as an executable.
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<jeosol>
shrdlu68: I see what you mean
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<shrdlu68>
jeosol: These days, the fashionable thing is to try and get a single executable if you can, or use tools like ansible or containers.
<jeosol>
better I was thinking of having a copy of code on remote. Not a good idea I suppose
<jeosol>
I am no devops expert. That makes a lot of sense I guess
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<shrdlu68>
jeosol: A bash script will do just fine if you make it error-resilient.
<jeosol>
Has anyone had to replicate cloud machine instances, if so what approach do you use. It may be better to setup one, test that it works, and get more instances from that if needed. Is this approach ok?
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* JuanDaugherty
prefers bash script independent of the hosting vendor, ec2-tools there
<JuanDaugherty>
(i.e. aws-cli)
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<jeosol>
JuanDuag..: ok. Independent setup is nice so I am not tied to provider.
<jeosol>
guess I have to do some more digging around.
<jeosol>
shrdlu68: what approach (ansible, container) would you recommend.
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<shrdlu68>
Ansible might be more straight-forward. Have your code in some revision control, pull it and build it where you want.
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<jeosol>
shrdlu68: It seems that is the option closer to what I was thinking. I have a repo on ec2 and can push the code there.
<jeosol>
shrdlu68: thx
<jeosol>
Thanks. I will look into the suggestions: roswell, ansible, etc. ...
<jeosol>
after relaxing, see a soccer game.
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<shrdlu68>
ool
<shrdlu68>
*Cool
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<shrdlu68>
Format strings look a bit like APL code.
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<schweers>
APL looks like format strings?
<shrdlu68>
A bit. A cryptic series of symbols.
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<shrdlu68>
How do I achieve this: (format t "~{~A,~}" (list 1 2 3 4))
<schweers>
I never used it, so I couldn’t properly comment anyway ;)
<shrdlu68>
=> 1,2,3,4,
<shrdlu68>
without the trailing ,
<schweers>
huh, it seems like APL uses the ≠ character. Must have been weird back then
<jackdaniel>
(format t "~{~A~^,~}" '(1 2 3 4))
<jackdaniel>
format is even less intelligible to me than loop tbh
<shrdlu68>
All we need is a good way to visualize it. Pretty colors, etc.
<schweers>
I guess proper balancing would be a good start
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<splittist>
With cl's read-macros etc. it's quite straightforward to annotate format strings. That it's not idiomatic means something. I'm not sure what.
<shrdlu68>
There's a certain appeal to these cryptic, concise things: regex, format, etc. Maybe it's something I'll get over, like one of those funny stages people go through in life.
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<_death>
to me there's no appeal at all for structure in strings
<jackdaniel>
_death: thanks
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<jmercouris>
how can I write a new line with (write-sequence ...)?
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<jmercouris>
must I do (write-char ...)?
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<jmercouris>
I can't seem to get a newline to write into my file
<jmercouris>
I was writing to the wrong stream...
<dlowe>
if you have a string, write-line is pretty useful.
<shrdlu68>
#'terpri
<dlowe>
you can also use terpri
<dlowe>
hah. beat me to it.
<dlowe>
see, if they had just made the string argument to write-line optional, there wouldn't be a need for terpri
<dlowe>
I guess it'd still be annoying to specify the stream.
<dlowe>
(write-line "" stream)
<jmercouris>
interesting, didn't know about terpri
<jmercouris>
I'll stick with writing #\return
<jmercouris>
it seems more obvious to whoever will look at my code
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<shrdlu68>
#\return? Not #\newline?
<jmercouris>
either way
<jmercouris>
hold habits die hard
<jmercouris>
s/hold/old
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<shrdlu68>
May matter to whoever is parsing the file. #\return is ascii 13 whereas #\newline is ascii 10.
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<dlowe>
MacOS used to use 13 for line breaks. I think they switched to 10 on OS X
<Xach>
flip214: That is not the master location any more.
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<jkordani>
jmercouris: also on ccl the default newline for streams is unix
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<shrdlu68>
#'read-line reads upto #\newline, doesn't consider #\readline a line separator.
<shrdlu68>
s/#\readline/#\return
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<jmercouris>
shrdlu68: Yeah, I changed it
<jmercouris>
I wasn't trying to imply I wasn't going to change it, just that it was out of habit :)
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<flip214>
Xach: ack.
<flip214>
I also pasted a snippet that calculates the round constants... I hope that this will be picked up soon.
<flip214>
[hint, hint ;]
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<asarch>
I was looking for the SlackBuild package of clisp and then I realized that it is part of the base installation of Slackware. SBCL actually uses it to compile itself
<asarch>
What could you do when you don't have a common Lisp compiler at hand to compile another Lisp compiler?
<asarch>
Is there a minimalist version for such as cases?
<beach>
asarch: You install a binary version of some existing system.
<asarch>
Thank you
<beach>
Or you can build CLISP with a C compiler and then SBCL with CLISP.
<ebrasca>
I remember someone here suggested me to make my fat32 portable between CL implementations.
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<ebrasca>
How I can make it? Some ideas?
<beach>
Why is it not portable now?
<ebrasca>
beach: Now it work with mezzano OS.
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<shka>
ebrasca: not a answer
<beach>
shka: Thanks.
<beach>
Isn't it just about reading and interpreting a sequence of bytes as directories and files?
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<shka>
it sounds like part of it
<ebrasca>
beach: Uses some mezzano only functions like read-sector and write-sector.
<shka>
ebrasca: perhaps you can split it into two parts
<shka>
one that is actually file system, second that handles fat32 format
<beach>
ebrasca: Isolate those parts in a separate module.
* ebrasca
don't undestand.
<beach>
ebrasca: I don't know whether this is feasible of course: ...
<beach>
ebrasca: Define two generic functions READ-SECTION and WRITE-SECTOR. Let them take an additional argument CLIENT. Create methods specializing on (CLIENT MEZZANO) that call the Mezzano operations with that name.
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<beach>
ebrasca: Other clients can then add methods for their particular version of those functions.
<loke>
beach: When I create a command table, how do I create a menu divider?
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<beach>
loke: As usual, I don't know. I am looking in the specification now to see whether I can find something.
<loke>
The documentation suggests there is a special value called :DIVIDER, but if I stick one of those into the list of entries, it doesn't even compile
<beach>
ADD-MENU-ITEM-TO-COMMAND-TABLE takes a type :DIVIDER.
<loke>
So when I create it inline using an argument to MAKE-COMMAND-TABLE, it can't be done?
<beach>
Sounds strange.
<random-nick>
hello, is there any way to make a closure of the dynamic environment?
<beach>
random-nick: No.
<beach>
loke: It says that STRING in (string type value &key ...) does not have to be given when TYPE is :divider, but I don't know whether that means that NIL should be given instead.
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<loke>
beach: Thanks! It worked.
<beach>
random-nick: Scheme has call/cc but Common Lisp doesn't. It could be a very costly thing to implement, plus the semantics can be very strange if, for instance, the same unwind-protect were to be executed more than once.
<beach>
loke: with NiL?
<loke>
Yes
<beach>
NIL?
<beach>
Excellent!
<loke>
Oh, you can also add a string to divider, and then it becomes a neat label. I wonder if that's standard.
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<loke>
beach: Tried the applicaiton yet?
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<beach>
loke: No. I am not sure what to do with it.
<beach>
loke: Yes, the string divider is standard.
<beach>
"If STRING is supplied, it will be drawn as the divider instead of a line."
<beach>
loke: See ADD-MENU-ITEM-TO-COMMAND-TABLE (unless you are at work of course, but I suspect not at this time).
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<random-nick>
hm, does anybody know the state of GNU Kawa's Common Lisp implementation? the only thing I could find in Kawa's manual is that it is incomplete
<beach>
What are its main characteristics?
<_death>
isn't it a scheme
<schweers>
random-nick: isn’t kawa kinda-sorta a scheme?
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<random-nick>
yes, GNU Kawa is primarily a Scheme implementation for the JVM but it apparently has incomplete support for compiling Common Lisp and Emacs Lisp
<schweers>
I didn’t know that. Interesting
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<random-nick>
is there some sort of test suite for common lisp implementations?
<pjb>
Tes.
<schweers>
random-nick: what do you want to test? standard conformance?
<jackdaniel>
note that it doesn't cover everything, but a fair chunk of the issues may come when you test with it
<pjb>
You should update the cliki page, it contains outdated urls…
<jackdaniel>
it was originally written by Paul Dietz
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<random-nick>
oh, looks like kawa common lisp is really incomplete
<random-nick>
it doesn't even support the #+ reader macro
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<Xach>
random-nick: where can I learn more about kawa common lisp?
<random-nick>
that's what I'm trying to find out
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<makomo>
who maintains the common-lisp.net site?
<loke>
beach: Thanks a lot!
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<MichaelRaskin>
beach: would debug functionality like you have describe as a low-level functionality for clordane be useful if it is implemented as a library on top of SBCL with 10× slowdown for threads under debugging?
<fe[nl]ix>
makomo: see the channel #common-lisp.net
<makomo>
fe[nl]ix: i see :-)
<fe[nl]ix>
you see well
<random-nick>
Xach: looks like kawa common lisp really doesn't implement much of common lisp, it's useless for any real world use case
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<schweers>
random-nick: have you asked in any scheme or even kawa specific channels?
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<random-nick>
schweers: actually, I haven't done that yet
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<Fade>
greetings, fe[nl]ix
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<fe[nl]ix>
hey Fade :)
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<Xach>
random-nick: Is there a website?
<Xach>
random-nick: I have never heard of kawa common lisp and i really like to learn about common lisps.
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<random-nick>
Xach: it doesn't really have a website, it's just mentioned of the features page of Kawa Scheme
<aeth>
There's a lot of things beyond the standard that libraries assume, too. For instance '(unsigned-byte 8) and 'single-float and 'double-float arrays are de facto standard even though the standard only requires bit and character. And there's probably a dozen portability libraries that express parts of the de facto standard, like bordeaux-threads and cffi.
<aeth>
Someone should probably make a complete list for implementors, if it doesn't already exist.
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<dlowe>
aeth: like in a common document repository?
<Xach>
runnable code would work.
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<aeth>
dlowe: CDR isn't up for me (did it move?), but I don't think that ever took off. Just a list of portability libraries and a test suite for some simple things libraries always assume like the array types would probably be better.
<dlowe>
heh. some clever person redirected it to Edi Weitz's homepage
<aeth>
Portability libraries would cover most things. I don't think there's a popular Unicode one, though.
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<dlowe>
cl-unicode?
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<aeth>
dlowe: I don't think that has as much as sb-unicode
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<makomo>
if i have a list bound to x and do something like (mapc (lambda (x) <body>) x), what x does "x" refer to within the body?
<pjb>
makomo: lexical binding. Check the parentheses.
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<makomo>
right, so the inner one?
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<makomo>
err nevermind, i started worrying about my sanity a little too early
<jmercouris>
Ukari: one cannot define a return-type
<beach>
jmercouris: Oh?
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<jmercouris>
beach: not like in C they can't
<jmercouris>
last time I recall, the signature of defmethod didn't include "static void"
<MichaelRaskin>
beach: well, you might expect that clordane with Cleavir's first-class support wille be obviously better.
<beach>
Right, no curly parentheses.
<beach>
jmercouris: Did you see the link about FTYPE?
<jmercouris>
Yes I saw that
<MichaelRaskin>
And so Clordane for legacy implementations is just not worth the trouble.
<beach>
That includes the return type.
<beach>
MichaelRaskin: That's what I thought until you told me it was possible with SBCL.
<jmercouris>
Show me a defmethod with a specification of return type, and I'll agree
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<jmercouris>
but I think ftype is something different
<MichaelRaskin>
I could write the form wrapper part, but I prefer navigating traces to hand-stepping, so I am not a likely Clordane user… If you can give me a spec for low-level functionality, I might consider writing it just to show off Agnostic Lizard.
<jmercouris>
I am imagining (defmethod name 'string ...)
<Bike>
tells the compiler the generic function returns an integer
<beach>
MichaelRaskin: I'll give it some thought.
<MichaelRaskin>
beach: of course, ther eis a catch
<jmercouris>
I guess you could write a macro to do it
<jmercouris>
Alright, CL has function return types, you are correct :D
<MichaelRaskin>
Namely, this would debug the expansion of the code.
<beach>
MichaelRaskin: I see.
<beach>
MichaelRaskin: I'll think about it. Right now I am off to spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
<MichaelRaskin>
Have a nice evening
<beach>
You too.
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<MichaelRaskin>
Thanks
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<imjacobclark>
Hello - I am trying to hook cl-json and MAKE-ARRAY up to get a JSON object printed to screen, however I keep running into Value #2A((("hello" . "world"))) is not of a type which can be encoded by ENCODE-JSON.
<imjacobclark>
This is the code I am trying... (print (json:encode-json (make-array '(1 1) :initial-contents '( (("hello" . "world") )))))
<imjacobclark>
Could anybody help me out?
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<Bike>
cl-json doesn't have an encoder for multidimensional arrays by default, apparently
<Bike>
how do you want them to be encoded?
<imjacobclark>
Bike: so my main problem really is when passing encode-json a list that has a variable in it, the variable isn't evaluated, the variables name ends up in the JSON
<imjacobclark>
For example the following code... (json:encode-json '#( ((foo . (1 2 3)) (bar . path) (baz . #\!)) "quux" 4/17 4.25 ))
<Bike>
that's not "a list that has a variable in it"
<Bike>
variables are not things you can pass. do you mean symbols?
<imjacobclark>
yes I believe I do
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<imjacobclark>
Sorry, I'm learning Lisp and this is me trying to solve a real world problem in it
<Bike>
Okay, well, see that '
<Bike>
that means nothing's getting evaluated
<imjacobclark>
Right I see - is there a way to get it to be evaluated? I was thinking make-array could do that
<Bike>
You could do, e.g., (json:encode-json (list foo 14)), and then encode-json will be passed a list with two elements, the first of which is whatever value the variable FOO has
<imjacobclark>
I see okay
<Bike>
This is a matter of lisp semantics with no direct connection to cl-json
<imjacobclark>
Thanks for that pointer!
<imjacobclark>
Could you explain what the . means in the list ("something" . "something")
<jmercouris>
the dot is cons cell notation
<Bike>
It means that it's a "dotted list" rather than a "proper list".
<Bike>
(cdr '(a b)) => (B), versus (cdr '(a . b)) => B
<Bike>
'(a b) is the constant version of (cons 'a (cons 'b nil)), while '(a . b) is (cons 'a 'b)
<White_Flame>
man, sometimes the array types can be annoying. clack wants a (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8)), and flexi-streams output returns a (vector (unsigned-byte 8)). Simple-vector always uses element type T, so there's no "simple-vector" type that can be specialized to (unsigned-byte 8)
<imjacobclark>
thanks all, this has been bugging me for 2 days
<jmercouris>
it's honestly not very exhaustive, but it should give you a head-start
<Bike>
White_Flame: i think the conversion is just (coerce flexi-streams-output 'simple-array), though.
<jmercouris>
it is as it reads, a practical explanation...
<Bike>
i think it copies the element type? not sure
<Bike>
mm, nope, has to be specified. bleh
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<White_Flame>
Bike: yeah, I have the coerce in there; not sure if it actually performs a data copy. i would nope not, but the extra type checking is annoying in the inner core of I/O
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<_death>
it does copy.. maybe flexi-streams should be fixed to return a (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8))
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<Bike>
yes, i'm surprised it doesn't.
<Bike>
maybe it's displaced?
<White_Flame>
well, which "more defining" of a datatype, the fact that it's simple, or the fact that it's a vector?
<White_Flame>
that's what doesn't combine well in the CLHS types
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<Bike>
maybe flexi streams should be fixed to return a simple array, i mean
<Bike>
a (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*))
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<whartung>
while I can dispatch a generic function on a structure type, I can’t “inherit” from a structure, I need to recode them all as classes first in CLOS, right? (I have a bunch of structs and am just lazy enough to not convert them into defclass if I don’t have to)
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<White_Flame>
structs themselves support single inheritance
<whartung>
via include, right?
<White_Flame>
yeah
<White_Flame>
but if you want more than that, yeah you have to CLOSify
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<whartung>
so if I have (defstruct xxx a b c) and (defstruct (yyy (:include xxx)) x y z) and (defmethod m1 (arg1 xxx)) and (defmethod m2 (arg1 xxx)) and (defmethod m2 (arg1 yyy)), will those work as expected? Is there a relationship between xxx and yyy or is it simplty structural?
<Bike>
whartung: yes, yyy is a subclass of xxx
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<whartung>
ah cool! Well, that makes it easy then — I don’t have to class-ify them then…Because I mostly want to specialize behavior, not structure. So I should be able to (defstruct xxx a b c) and then simply (defstruct (yyy (:include xxx))) and method dispatch should Just Work.
<whartung>
ty all.
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