phoe changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.16, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<hectorhonn> morning everyone
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<rpg> beach: Good night! ;-)
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<fiddlerwoaroof> My impression is that RMS dislikes Common Lisp because of his experience with Symbolics
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<fiddlerwoaroof> I forget where I read it, but part of the impetus behind the GPL was the way Symbolics took the LispOS code MIT developed and commercialized it
<no-defun-allowed> also, i heard he thinks keyword arguments are too complex
<fiddlerwoaroof> I believe there's a thread on the emacs mailing list or somewhere where he rants about this
<no-defun-allowed> also that if you bring up lisp near him, he won't speak much about it
<fiddlerwoaroof> My impression of dwim.hu was that it was a web application platform that some people tried building a consultancy on
<fiddlerwoaroof> CL is in an interesting space where, even if you don't like the language as standardized, you can build up your own language on top of it and leverage the libraries in the community at large
<fiddlerwoaroof> dwim.hu somewhat intentionally wrote there software in the "dwim.hu" dialect of CL
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<beach> It is entirely possible that it wasn't easy to get good performm out of a Common Lisp implementation on stock hardware at the time rms started GNU. But now, rms is no longer involved in software development as far as I can tell. He is doing what nobody else seems to be able to do, namely giving talks about free software.
<beach> So I wouldn't pay much attention to what rms thinks about Common Lisp anymore.
<fiddlerwoaroof> beach: I wish I remembered where I read it, but my impression is that he was mostly annoyed with the way Symbolics commercialized MIT's lisp machine
<beach> fiddlerwoaroof: Yes, that's a well-known story.
<fiddlerwoaroof> I don't think it really has anything to do with the technical merits of CL
<beach> Not sure it influenced his opinion about Common Lisp though.
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<LdBeth> Documentation of algorithms and design worth more than source code
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<verisimilitude> I suppose Shen is a good example of building one's own Lisp on CL, considering it has a CL implementation.
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<no-defun-allowed> --delete this--
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<fiddlerwoaroof> verisimilitude: yeah, and the yale haskell compiler was implemented in a half-working attempt at source compatiblity between scheme and common lisp
<fiddlerwoaroof> Then, at a further extreme, there are things like clpython and cljs that implement completely different languages by transforming them into CL and then compiling the CL
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<LdBeth> Yale Haskell is based on a Scheme dialect called T
<fiddlerwoaroof> No, the code reads like they gave up halfway through a port to T
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<fiddlerwoaroof> As its readme says "Don't try to load the system into T. It's broken!"
<fiddlerwoaroof> This directory contains a scheme-like set of operators for CL: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/yale-haskell-reboot/tree/master/cl-support
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<LdBeth> I suppose inventing a third language makes this barely useful to either scheme or CL people
<LdBeth> Plus the intermediate language is not well defined
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<fiddlerwoaroof> Yeah, I think they basically tried to smoothly transition from CL->scheme and then discovered that they hada huge mess :)
<fiddlerwoaroof> But, it would be interesting to hear from someone who actually worked on this about what happenend
<LdBeth> * Before they die out
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<fiddlerwoaroof> oops, wrong channel
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<splittist> good morning #lisp
<beach> Hello splittist.
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<akater> fiddlerwoaroof: dwim.hu custom syntax, to me, is a nice example of syntax I probably wouldn't use but in the same time one that is fine to read.
<akater> It seems there's a verys thin line between custom syntax that is readable and unreadable. dwim.hu sort of manages to deal with it.
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<akater> In the meantime, I'm still not sure what WITH-UPGRADABILITY means in recent ASDF. :-)
<akater> (even though its definition is not excessive)
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<akater> Macros cross the border between “technical abstraction” and “the way people use the language”.
<akater> I believe a sufficient condition for a macro to be considered done right is to “make enough sense on the first glance” to a sufficient amount of members of the community using the language.
<akater> Here, “enough” is hard to formalize though. But to me, it looks like dwim.hu code pushes the boundary just right. Its macros are mostly understandable by osmosis.
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<fiddlerwoaroof> akater: WITH-UPGRADABILITY basically prevents sbcl from inlining the function, iirc
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<fiddlerwoaroof> the goal is to allow ASDF to be upgraded in-place in implementations that ship an old version
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<akater> In that case, `with-asdf-updradability' would be a much better name, I believe.
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<akater> Well anyway, comprehensibilty of macros is subjective. But I was a little surprised by jmercouris' objection to something I found quite readable. I wonder if jmercouris would object to some DEFCLASS wrapper that creates homonymous accessors and initargs. (Will have to ask later, I guess.)
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<aeth> akater: Iirc UIOP also uses it, not just ASDF
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<hectorhonn> akater: where can one find a defclass wrapper like the one you mentioned?
<beach> hectorhonn: It is very unusual to need such a thing.
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<hectorhonn> beach: huh? why not? most of the time my slot reader has the same name as the initarg
<akater> hectorhonn: That's what I use at the moment https://pastebin.com/wvb5YB3K
<beach> I find that there is always some slight variation between slots. One slots needs an :ACCESOR, but another needs only a :READER. One needs an :INITFORM, another does not.
<hectorhonn> akater: i see
<akater> hectorhonn: Usage example: (define-simple-class symbol-and-type (expression) ((symbol :type cl:symbol) (type)) (:default-initargs :type t))
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<hectorhonn> beach: if one uses an immutable style, most of the objects will only need readers
<hectorhonn> beach: something like, er, haskell records
<beach> Plus, I always give each slot a name that is different from the reader/accessor, so I would not want the initarg to be derived from the slot name.
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<beach> Another variation is that there is sometimes several initargs for a slot, and sometimes several readers, or one reader and one accessor.
<beach> Stuff like that.
<aeth> I like having an accessor and a reader
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<beach> It is sometimes useful to nave a writer that is not exported and a reader that is.
<aeth> A separate writer with with-accessors is awkward so it's imo best to have a reader and an accessor if only a reader is supposed to be public
<beach> Sure.
<dim> I tend to use struct so that I don't have to think about all that ;-) but I lean to using classes more these days I think
<dim> mmm, thinking about it, I think I use classes when I know there will be some inheritance involved in my data structures, otherwise defstruct and generic functions
<akater> hectorhonn: The snippet might be nonconforming, actually. Cf. 3.1.2.1.2.2 Macro Forms: `The consequences are undefined if a macro function destructively modifies any part of its form argument.'
<jackdaniel> I've encountered a few times macro defclass* which defines initargs and accessors based on slot names
<jackdaniel> so the syntax is essentially the one from defstruct but you may redefine such classes
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<shka__> wow, that's some advance lazy
<jackdaniel> also ergolib has define-class which allows you to choose whenever class is backed by a structure-class or a standard-class
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<aeth> dim: my personal line is that I almost always use structs when :type in slots is important
<jackdaniel> shka__: how so? such utility is quite practical and has very clear semantics
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<jackdaniel> I can agree that some dislike such automation (hence criticize defstruct), but other than that it doesn't seem like anything extreme
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<aeth> The most common thing a defclass* probably would overlook is the reader+accessor combination in a slot definition
<dim> jackdaniel: CCL knows how to redefine structs, and SBCL in a more limited way but as I tend to have short-lived objects it's not a problem for me
<jackdaniel> aeth: it works (afair) like this: if slot is denoted by a symbol, automatic stuff is defined, if it is a list, then it is left as is
<aeth> ah, I do stuff like that
<jackdaniel> dim: sure, I'm talking about portable common lisp though
<jackdaniel> consequences are undefined when you redefine a struct
<aeth> I basically do that in a macro called with-accessors*
<aeth> 90% of the time it's (foo foo) so I simplify that to foo
<jackdaniel> I've landed a new restriction in ECL develop branch lately which signals an error when structure is redefined in incompatible way
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<akater> aeth: I mostly use :type to get some useful feedback from the compiler. In case of SBCL, I do! Caught some bugs simply due to type declarations.
<dim> jackdaniel: good point
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<akater> aeth: And it makes code more readable for me, too. After a couple of stall weeks, type declarations help to remember what I had in mind.
<hectorhonn> beach: several initargs for the same slot? wow i didnt know one could do that. haha
<aeth> akater: This will bring up the types debate again so I should say this: There are certain places where types are useless (e.g. helper functions to macros) and certain places where they're near-mandatory imo.
<jackdaniel> hectorhonn: to confuse things a little, single initarg may initialize many slots
<hectorhonn> jackdaniel: :O
<jackdaniel> (defclass foo () ((a :initarg :bar) (b :initarg :bar)))
<jackdaniel> like this
<jackdaniel> or the initarg may not be associated with a slot and logic associated with its value may be put in initialize-instance method
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<shka_> aeth: i think that this won't be such a controversy
<hectorhonn> jackdaniel: really a programmable programming language. totally lives up to its name
<akater> aeth: When you need heavily optimized code, this seems to matter.
<akater> I recently saw a blogpost from someone who migrated from CL to Julia because CL “has no dependent types”. I can understand this affection. A common rejoinder is, “you can do this with macros” but in my opinion, it's getting old.
<shka_> akater: eeeee?
<shka_> dependent types? what is that?
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<no-defun-allowed> stuff like (in haskell) `singularList :: a -> [a]` where the output types depend on the input, often using type "variables"
<shka_> ah, ok
<shka_> well, sbcl can kinda do that
<akater> There was at least one attempt to bring dependent types to CL, namely “cl-parametric-types” but the author (1) became disillusioned, according to his own statement; (2) was inspired by C++ templates, which is not necessarily a terrific idea when one programs CL.
<no-defun-allowed> oh dear
<shka_> honestly i don't consider this to be critical feature
<shka_> but i can see the benefit
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<ggole> That's not dependent types?
<no-defun-allowed> i thought it was
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<ggole> a -> [a] is just parametric polymorphism, and Julia's "dependent types" thing is having typed array sizes
<akater> Julia is worth looking into. At least they are inspired by some of the best achievements out there (Lisp included).
<shka_> ggole: well, in that case it is a critical feature
<no-defun-allowed> oh ok
<ggole> So you can say, eg, concat : array X int, array Y int -> array (X + Y) int
<no-defun-allowed> gotcha
<shka_> this is neat
<ggole> It is, it's a nice way to generalise CLs typed arrays
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<ggole> And good for efficiency
<ggole> But, it is not dependent types.
<shka_> yeah, i can see the allure
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<shka_> well, this is cool and i don't think you can do that in CL
<shka_> i don't like complicated types though
<ggole> Dependent types get crazy
<shka_> my impression exactly
<shka_> "code failed to compile, here is the 5 page long explanation of WHY, have fun and fuck you"
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<jackdaniel> I like the idea of gradual typing
<ggole> Even much milder things like GADTs can be a bit much
<akater> Even without dependent types, one Tamas Papp (authoreds some CL libraries) claimed to switch to Julia due to some struggles with CL arrays. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15478131
<akater> *authored
<ggole> CL arrays do have some limitations if you are after efficiency
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<shka_> reading the article, but it seems to be misguided
<akater> His grievances are not all justified, imo. But they might be in near future. I treid to read matlisp, and it was not a very pleasant experience. What he complains about, *could be* overcome.
<shka_> well, heiseig recently contributed vector-classes which allows to dispatch on vector types
<shka_> and both sbcl and ccl have specialized double float arrays
<shka_> so i don't think this is accurate criticism of cl
<jdz> Right, the author of the article should have tried his code on other implementations of Julia.
<jackdaniel> (nb: this is not accurate description either, i.e why double-float is mentioned instead of specialized float arrays in general?)
<akater> Yeah, and he says “portable, fast, convenient --- pick 2”. That's not really true, Juila's “portability” is quite dubious, given it's such a young language.
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<shka_> well, julia seems to have good things going for her, but the advantage over CL is not vast
<shka_> and in other areas it is probabbly just worse
<akater> (I mean, he claims with CL you have to pick 2, but with Julia you don't)
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<jackdaniel> "- one quality is enough to fulfill the needs of a grown programmer", "- how many did you take?", "- three!" ;-)
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<jackdaniel> [reference to lotr and "lembas bread" for people who do not remember the book]
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<phoe> ELS tickets purchased.
<phoe> Do ELSfolk already know which hotel they will choose?
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<heisig> Not yet. If there are still rooms, we will probably stay directly at the venue.
<phoe> heisig: threw a pair of GitHub tickets your way, hope they make sense
<phoe> oh, there are rooms at the conplace? Wonderful
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<beach> We have a room at the hotel of the venue, i.e. Brighton Palace.
<heisig> phoe: Just fixed the issues you reported. Thanks!
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<phoe> heisig: no problem! It's good to know that I still can read
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<phoe> beach: OK, booked there.
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<beach> Rooms still available? Impressive!
<phoe> Well, one less room available now.
<beach> "fewer" :)
<phoe> Fewer.
<phoe> Blah.
<phoe> /join #englishschool
<flip214> beach: who says the rooms are countable? Perhaps it's Cantor's Grandson's Hotel ;)
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<beach> flip214: Hmm, then that hotel will be an interesting experience for sure.
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<flip214> beach: yeah -- it would be a good explanation why there's always one more room available.
<flip214> or even an infinity of them... ;=
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<flip214> oh, that was Hilbert's Hotel. My bad.
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<splittist> It's the In-room Dining Philosophers that are the problem...
<flip214> QL on CLisp gives me "READ from .../quicklisp/http.lisp: there is no package with name "SB-POSIX""
<pfdietz> I am sad I cannot do ELS this year. I would like to sometime.
<phoe> flip214: weird
<phoe> QL on CLISP shouldn't access SBCL internal packages
<phoe> because it's obvious they won't be there
<flip214> ql:update-client says The most up-to-date client, version 2017-03-06, is already installed.
<flip214> hrmpf
<phoe> flip214: you're on bleeding-edge releases
<flip214> oh, that's actually my fault...
<flip214> I've inserted a (sb-posix:getenv "http_proxy")
<phoe> (:
<flip214> at some time long past
<phoe> flip214: uiop:getenv
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<flip214> yeah, thanks
<beach> pfdietz: Sorry to hear that.
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<flip214> Error while trying to load definition for system trivial-signal ... CFFI-toolchain requires ASDF 3.1!
<jackdaniel> now the question is: how much does it really require it and how much was it a backpressure / contributor's strong conviction to put this error
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<flip214> after upgrading I get EVAL: undefined function VERSION<
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<flip214> At ELS I won't be at the dinner on Wednesday... I have to travel to a business appointment on Thursday.
<flip214> I hoped that the dinner would be on Monday or Tuesday.
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<flip214> Is anything planned for Sunday?
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<splittist> The dinner on Wednesday is the full <P...> banquet? There's nothing ELS specific?
<beach> Perhaps we should organize something for Tuesday. We are leaving on Wednesday anyway.
<beach> I dread this kind of organization though. The best thing would be for one person to decide on a place and then invite people to attend. It is nearly impossible to get this many people to discuss and agree on something, especially the same day.
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<LdBeth> Good morning
<beach> Hello LdBeth.
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<shka_> good evening
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<shka_> any idea for less generic name for something that is currently called cl-data-frames?
<beach> What does it do?
<phoe> what does it do?
<phoe> welp
<beach> Heh.
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<rpg> shka_: Like Pandas for CL?
<dlowe> fantasta-data-explosions!
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<pjb> rpg: cl-like-pandas-for-cl
<phoe> grizzlies
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<dlowe> clondike
<dlowe> clodiak
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<rpg> clandas sounds a little too KKK...
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<beach> I am reading the Common Lisp HyperSpec page on DEFCLASS, and specifically, the last paragraph before the (empty) "Examples" section. Am I right in interpreting this paragraph as the obligation for the compiler to create the class in the compilation environment at compile time?
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<verisimilitude> It seems to be almost that, from my reading, beach.
<verisimilitude> It seems like there's enough leeway for it to do the bare minimum, instead of quite that.
<beach> Maybe, unless FIND-CLASS is called.
<verisimilitude> Outside of that FIND-CLASS note, it doesn't seem required.
<beach> Sure.
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<verisimilitude> Oh, then we're in agreement, then.
<beach> But if it is sometimes required, it might as well create it.
<verisimilitude> Anyway, what has you wondering this, beach?
<beach> It doesn't cost anything.
<verisimilitude> I prefer to write my programs to depend only on what I know I can, not what is likely available.
<beach> Because I am writing a better protocol than the one in section 8.5 of CLtL2, and I was wondering whether I need a CLASS-INFO in addition to the others.
<beach> But it appears I don't. I can just use FIND-CLASS.
<verisimilitude> Oh; well, good luck and all of that.
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<beach> Thanks. It is practically done. I mean, I did it for Cleavir. Now, I just want to extract it to a separate system and improve the design.
<LdBeth> Make it well documented is better than make it portable
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<jmercouris> does anyone know how to do symmetric encryption with ironclad? a simple code snippet?
<jmercouris> I want to encode some string using a secret key, symmetrically
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<beach> LdBeth: Working on it: http://metamodular.com/trucler.pdf
<jmercouris> an example of how to use blowfish for example...
<jmercouris> ask and cliki shall give
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<emaczen> fiddlerwoaroof: Have you gotten around to adding methods to objc classes?
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<emaczen> Specifically, do you know of a way to translate type encodings?
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<emaczen> I guess you could "grovel"
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<gendl> Hi everyone.
<gendl> The CLF is hosting a donation-doubling appreciation fundraiser for ASDF: https://payments.common-lisp.net/asdf
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<gendl> Please, take a few minutes from your day and a few guilders to show some love for the countless hours put into ASDF in the past decade. I know there's been some frustration with asdf from time to time, but showing support in this way can help encourage others to contribute in the future as well.
<scymtym> gendl: there seems to be a markup problem with the link titled "Appreciation Fundraiser" in the "Valentine's Day Fundraiser" section
<gendl> scymtym: On it...
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<cage_> good initiative!
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<jackdaniel> gendl: is there a way to make a paypal payment or a transfer from the bank? I have some dollar and euro so giving my PL card number will introduce unnecessary exchange fee from pln
<gendl> jackdaniel: See the "Alternate Paymnt Method" link after the donation buttons.
<scymtym> gendl: thanks
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<jackdaniel> gendl: ah, I've missed that. thank you!
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<gendl> scymtym: Thanks for catching the markup typo, should be fixed now.
<jackdaniel> done \o/
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<gendl> jackdaniel: Thanks! There may be a day or two lag before Alternate Payments show up in the Status Area.
<gendl> Can y'all help spread word of this fundraiser? I've posted links on Reddit (/r/lisp and /r/common_lisp). Hoping this will get picked up elsewhere. There is $5000 of matching funds sitting there waiting to be applied.
<gendl> And, the fundraising page itself (using Stripe) is implemented and running in pure CL. If anyone would like to volunteer to stylize it and clean it up, I can open up repository access as well and get you set up with what you need to run & test it locally.
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<ebrasca> gendl: What purpose this fundraising have?
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<gendl> ebrasca: thanks for asking. The purpose is to present a monetary gift to Faré the long-time maintainer of ASDF. Hopefully it will have the side-effect of also encouraging future contributions to the ASDF project.
<ebrasca> gendl: mmm , maybe parallel compilation?
<gendl> The Common Lisp Foundation intends to offer fundraising hosting for all projects hosted at https://common-lisp.net, but this one is of special note because there is a Donation Doubler in effect currently -- each donation up to the first $5000 will be doubled, from two large seed donations.
<ebrasca> gendl: I don't have bank acount and don't know it i can trust common-lisp.net .
<gendl> ebasca: Note that this is an Appreciation fundraiser for past work, and does not bring with it any particular future promises.
<gendl> ebrasca: Note that common-lisp.net has been in existence for many years, and a little over two years ago hosted a Quicklisp fundraiser which raised over $17,000 for Xach.
<gendl> Please check with Xach to confirm that the funds were duly transferred to him.
<ebrasca> I think it is better to write code.
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<cage_> ebrasca, this is the second time the cl foundation organize a fundraising and as far as i know there wan no complaints
<cage_> *was
<gendl> ebrasca: That is your prerogative. Thanks for your feedback.
<gendl> If anyone can suggest other steps clnet and CLF can take to establish trust, please let me know.
<gendl> We are running on a skeleton crew of volunteers, so in fact (in addition to a small amount of technical infrastructure), the main asset we have to offer is indeed trust only.
<ebrasca> I need to think if I have money to donate and learn how to do it.
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<gendl> CLF is incorporated as a Foundation in the Netherlands, so if there is actual malfeasance there is an entity which can be held accountable.
<cage_> plus i think you can meet some of them at ELS :)
<gendl> Yes, at least I do plan to be at ELS (fully at my own company's expense this year -- last year I was program chair)
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<ebrasca> Maybe I can go to ELS if i use all my savings XD
<cage_> :)
<ebrasca> How to make money fast and then donate and go to ELS?
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<ebrasca> Can I make fundraising for Mezzano develoment?
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<phoe> ebrasca: set up a Patreon page or any other place where people can donate to you.
<dim> ahah, I want to share with you guys a private message I just received, because we're talking about an application written in Common Lisp: “We rely on pgloader heavily and are very grateful for the time and effort you've invested in this tool, which we've found to surpass all other AWS solutions we've come across.”
<phoe> :D
<makomo> dim: very nice :-)
<dim> as pgloader depends on about ~60 libs in Quicklisp, and also piggy backs on the excellent work of SBCL and CCL, I wanted to share the feedback
<phoe> dim: throw it at /r/lisp
<ebrasca> Do I need bank card to donate with paypal?
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<cage_> dim, congratulations!
<dim> phoe: I'm not sure I would dare... as the author of pgloader it might just sounds over confident, don't you think?
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<gendl> ebrasca: I think PayPal accepts things other than cc, but we don’t control that part.
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<gendl> Two years ago when we started the Quicklisp fundraiser, it was PayPal only, but some people complained they are allergic to PayPal for some reason, so we took the time to make the Stripe integration.
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<gendl> ebrasca: if you don’t have funds readily available Then please don’t stress about it. There are organizations and individuals out there who depend on CL, and who are well wishers, who hopefully will start donating once they get word.
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<phoe> dim: well
<gendl> So if you’d like to help, the best way might be by trying to broadcast the link in all the channels you know.
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<ebrasca> mmm #lispgames
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<no-defun-allowed> phoe: it's deleted ):
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<dim> [removed]
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<dim> ?
<no-defun-allowed> i hate to complain, too, but the little yin-yang thing next to Common-Lisp.net in the title bar is off centre
<no-defun-allowed> "it's deleted ):"
<dim> maybe I should just tweet the quote after all ;-)
<phoe> huh, it works for me
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<gendl> And the overriding purpose here is to maintain and improve the CL ecosystem as a mission critical and production-worthy ecosystem, so it will be possible for more and more people to earn livelihoods and avoid becoming frustrated in an unwanted “starving artist” mode.
<travv0> phoe: not working there either
<phoe> ...though not on incognito
<travv0> sounds like someone's shadowbanned
<phoe> let's see if this works
<makomo> same here. all i see is "[removed]" and "by [deleted]"
<makomo> phoe: that last one works
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<travv0> yep
<travv0> now it's gone
<travv0> wait never mind
<ebrasca> I get someting like "Random moment of pgloader appreciation (self.Common_Lisp) submitted 5 minutes ago by [deleted] [removed]"
<gendl> no-defun-allowed can you get to issues on clo/clf-apps on GitLab.common-Lisp.net? I might lose track of things mentioned here.
<gendl> “complaints” are appreciated, by the way.
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<no-defun-allowed> Are you sure it's clo/clf-apps?
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<ebrasca> I have comment about it in Discord.
<no-defun-allowed> Erm, I could raise an issue on clo/cl-site, would that be a good place for it?
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<gendl> Is it an issue with cl-site as well?
<gendl> If so, then yes. If it’s only with the payments site, then let me add you as a reporter.
<no-defun-allowed> I...assume so? It's a little off on common-lisp.net/, and cl-site seems to have all the pages.
<gendl> so you can lodge issues at clf-apps.
<gendl> ok then pls lodge it at cL-site.
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<no-defun-allowed> well, it's issue #37 now
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<no-defun-allowed> (also i can't get the status emoji picker to cooperate on safari, though that's a gitlab problem)
<gendl> no-definitely-allowed: thanks. You can lodge the emoji picking issue as well, because the clnet maintainer takes gitlab updates seriously.
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<no-defun-allowed> i'll probably try later on firefox, since safari is pretty good at randomly breaking like that
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<phoe> Does anyone have any library for managing a body of loosely formatted text with images? I am thinking bold/italic/underline/strikethrough/quotation marks.
<phoe> I could always try using CL-WHO with a subset of HTML, but I wonder if there is a lispier way for achieving that.
<no-defun-allowed> so, like a markdown-y DSL?
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<phoe> Sort of
<phoe> Except I'd prefer to navigate this as a tree
<no-defun-allowed> hmm, nothing comes to mind immediately
<phoe> And I'd like the ability to convert to/from HTML, since I'll be using HTML to display it.
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<no-defun-allowed> maybe some kind of translator to CL-WHO code would work well
<phoe> Something like ((:p "Foo bar " (:b "baz") " quux") (:img :src "asdasdasd"))
<phoe> yep, something like that perhaps
<phoe> especially since this already looks pretty much like CL-WHO
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<no-defun-allowed> sounds like CL-WHO to me
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<phoe> okay then
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<gendl> phoe: combination of cl-who and cl-markdown.
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<phoe> gendl: I think cl-markdown operates on strings though. I'll want to be able to traverse the resulting structure as a tree.
<phoe> so actually, CL-WHO's representation works in my case.
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<gendl> phoe: You can use markdown strings at the leaf level, embedded in the cl-who tree.
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<gendl> i'm not sure of your use case here but I find for normal web page contents, it gets to be overkill to have s-expression tree structure for each little bolded piece of text etc.
<verisimilitude> Most HTML one comes across is broken in some way. I was entertaining the idea of an approach that parses only correct HTML and, in the case of failure, has the option of running heuristic parsing functions in an attempt to properly parse it. The idea was to avoid a large and heuristic-ridden parser by replacing it with a clean parser and the option of using heuristic, with the idea that one could even use heuristics when dealing with
<verisimilitude> some sources and different heuristics when dealing with others.
<verisimilitude> Is there any Common Lisp library that already does this or is my idea as novel as I like to think?
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