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<Xach>
LdBeth: sending a telegram?
<LdBeth>
ATTN
<asarch>
How would you convert an integer into a string?
<LdBeth>
By #'format
<LdBeth>
or either #'write-to-string
<asarch>
Thank you! Thank you very much! :-)
<LdBeth>
I guess thinking [type-of-a]->string is harmful
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<ebrasca>
Can I ask about usocket implementation here?
<Xach>
ebrasca: sure
<ebrasca>
What is function wait-for-input-internal ?
<ebrasca>
What function wait-for-input-internal have?
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<bitmapper>
does anyone know the status of lispworks personal 64bit?
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<ebrasca>
Xach: ^
<pjb>
asarch: prin1-to-string for any lisp object, including integers.
<asarch>
Yeah!
<pjb>
ebrasca: what does it have?
<pjb>
LdBeth: not harmful, but using to<-from instead of from->to might be better in lisp: (c<-b (b<-a a)) instead of (b->c (a->b a))
<pjb>
ebrasca: you're not making sense.
<ebrasca>
pjb: I need to implement wait-for-input-internal for usocket Mezzano implementation.
<ebrasca>
pjb: But I don't undestand wait-for-input-internal.
<pjb>
ebrasca: well -internal probably means that it's an internal function, so it can do anything, depending on the implementation of your code. wait-for-input should be clear enough: it should wait until something is ready to be read.
<pjb>
ebrasca: it should be noted that you get no help from CL for this kind of features. There's a LISTEN function for character streams, but since it's always implementation and platform dependent if and how streams are buffered, LISTEN doesn't give much information. It does precisely what it's specified to do, indicate whether there's data ready to be processed for lisp. But more data could have been available if the things had bee
<pjb>
unbuffered or raw.
<LdBeth>
pjb: I mean thinking in coercion while asking for formatting is no good. There could have many functions have type number->string
<pjb>
LdBeth: Oh, you mean (haskell-type number -> type), not number->type.
<LdBeth>
pjb: or (scheme number->string)
<Xach>
ebrasca: it's something like select, poll, epoll, or kqueues.
<Xach>
ebrasca: in unix terms, wait for an fd to have data
<pjb>
LdBeth: scheme number->string doesn't have the type number -> string: it can signal errors…
<LdBeth>
That only means it’s a partial function
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<pjb>
It's a way to see it. What's the type of a partial function?
<pjb>
(it looks like types are important to you, so I ask)
<pjb>
Note how C++ or Java function signatures include the set of conditions that are signaled. int foo(int x) throws Y,Z;
<LdBeth>
pjb: partial in the sense that not all elements in the set of input type are covered. However you can still view conditions/errors/exceptions as objects of certain type
<dlowe>
pretty sure C++ doesn't have checked exceptions so far
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<_death>
C++ has exception specifications, but nobody uses them because they have issues.. except maybe to say that a function does not throw
<LdBeth>
A partial function in domain A could be a total on in domain B which is a subset of A
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<dlowe>
_death: I honestly can't keep up with C++ anymore since I don't use it day-to-day
<LdBeth>
But I argues that thinking in terms of type is not all that important in CL
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<dlowe>
_death: okay, those actually cause runtime errors instead of compiler checks. yikes.
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<_death>
dlowe: well, I wanted to say that I haven't used it for a while, but then I recalled that I used it today.. to add a bit of texture manipulation functions to my imgui+ecl thingy so that I can use vecto to draw stuff and see it appear immediately on screen :)
<dlowe>
"If an exception is thrown from a function that has not specified the thrown exception in its exception specification, the result is a call to the function unexpected()."
* dlowe
kicks sand over C++. I think we've seen enough.
<_death>
I could've just used cl-opengl for that bit, but I didn't want to depend on it for such basic functionality so provided my own interface
<Xach>
_death: i am on the verge of making something that uses the vecto api but draws into a browser immediately instead. i need faster feedback.
<_death>
lemme make a video :)
<Xach>
and faster rendering. vecto is too slow :(
<dlowe>
Xach: like with parenscript?
<dlowe>
phoe: :D
<Xach>
dlowe: i was thinking a websocket where lisp pushes primitives to a little js kernel that draws to a canvas. but it's all thinking so far, no doing.
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<Xach>
bidirectional, too, so i could send mouse events to lisp and react. again, mostly daydreaming without code so far.
<Xach>
this seems legit easier than porting my preferred way of messing around with graphic objects to javascript
<Xach>
and then also using javascript
<smokeink>
Xach: I think it's very doable; I've done it with trident mode but I want to switch to using websockets ;
<Xach>
smokeink: what is trident mode?
<Xach>
oh, i see
<smokeink>
it's an emacs plugin to send parenscript to the browser
<Xach>
i guess if you don't have to compress anything that helps runtime
<Xach>
_death: vectometry is so much nicer to use
<_death>
Xach: the color changes every time I C-M-x.. I didn't measure how much time it takes to render though
<_death>
(every time I evaluate, it replaces the texture)
<Xach>
cool
<_death>
you could do something like that with simple cl-opengl code.. likely easier than websockets+js :)
<Xach>
_death: i want to offload rasterizing too
<_death>
ah
<Xach>
so js gets canvas commands, not a bitmap
<Xach>
but fairly terse canvas commands - not straight code to eval
<_death>
what about a cairo backend or something
<Xach>
avoiding ffi mostly.
<Xach>
i can grok socket ffi and it doesn't need a library.
<_death>
is it just for speed reasons?
<Xach>
_death: i'd like to cut down the feedback loop of thinking about a tweak to a graphics hack and seeing what it looks like. i'd also like to add some interactivity.
<_death>
HiRE: you just need some practice.. try this (setf *read-base* 36)
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<smokeink>
(let () (defvar x0 2) x0) ; why does it give a Warning: this undefined variable: X0 ? (when evaling it the 1st time) and this one doesn't?: (progn (defvar x6 2) x6)
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<pjb>
smokeink: The second form could also give a warning when evaluating it the first time. If it doesn't, it may show that you evalulate it in a REPL that uses an optimization for progn forms.
<pjb>
smokeink: in both cases, defvar doesn't do anything until the form is evaluated: it has no compilation-time effect. Therefore when both forms are compiled, at compilation time, there is no variable known by x0 or x6.
<pjb>
smokeink: once you evaluate them, the symbol x0 (or x6) is marked as being special, a dynamic binding is established between the symbol and the initial value, and all the code that was compiled using lexical binding of variables named x0 (or x6) are still lexical bindings. So basically, your defvar forms are useless.
<pjb>
smokeink: unless, you try to compile new code.
<pjb>
smokeink: in which case, since you have a different environment between the old code already compiled, and the new code, you can get semantic discrepancies, and strange bugs.
<pjb>
And when I write strange bugs, I mean bugs you will spend days to debug…
<pjb>
Therefore 1- never use defvar or defparameter other than as toplevel form (note progn keeps it a toplevel form, so what I called optimization above must actually be the specified semantic).
<pjb>
2- always name your special variables using the earmuff convention!!!
<no-defun-allowed>
pjb: I cannot find any information on the language other than news, and how is it related to Lisp?
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<no-defun-allowed>
"elastic actor execution model" sounds interesting, but it sounds difficult to put with "C" and embedded devices.
<nirved>
smokeink: (let () (declare (special x0)) ...) would remove the warning
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<loke>
pjb: any link to the language implementation?
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<smokeink>
nirved, pjb: cool,thanks
<LdBeth>
no-defun-allowed: according to some Chinese user, it’s currently like a cut down version of Python
<no-defun-allowed>
I don't C the "see" reference then.
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<LdBeth>
Anyway, it seems like a troll
<pjb>
loke: not yet, but I think that beach should have traveled North from Vietnam…
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<smokeink>
pjb: here's some Common Lisp https://paste.ofcode.org/Wnu3ffzKvnwf3ZM3M8cibA in Classical Chinese . the advantage is having short identifiers - if you're used to the logograms -
<pjb>
smokeink: and the advantage, is that since it's lisp code, ie. lisp data, we can easily write a little function to substitute the chinese ideogram with words using the latin alphabet. :-)
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<smokeink>
you could, but that would be at the end when you want to share the code with others ; during development you can keep it short
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<Josh_2>
Mornin beach
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<HiRE>
hm
<HiRE>
so I am trying to summarize a bunch of booleans... I figured I could do something like `(reduce #'or '(t t t t nil))` and expect it to be false.
<HiRE>
but reduce doesn't like #'or...says its not a function
<HiRE>
is there a smarter way to do that?
<White_Flame>
OR is a macro, but (lambda (x y) (or x y)) would work
<HiRE>
ah, so the reason is because its a macro
<HiRE>
interesting
<HiRE>
makes sense.
<White_Flame>
if it was a function, it couldn't do short circuiting
<White_Flame>
(some #'identity '(t t t t nil)) also can work
<White_Flame>
and is likely to be optimized
<HiRE>
how does identity work?
<HiRE>
I suppose I could just RTFM
<White_Flame>
just passes the parameter through
<HiRE>
oh its literally the identity function...lol
<HiRE>
got it
<White_Flame>
also, if you use REDUCE, it will always traverse the entire list. SOME/EVERY/etc will early exit if the condition is met/breached
<HiRE>
wait there's a smarter way to do this I think
<HiRE>
I think im overthinking this
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<HiRE>
I remember from PCL there's a way to unwrap a list into a function's args
<HiRE>
(or <unwrappy thing>(t t t t nil))
<White_Flame>
but OR isn't a function ;)
<HiRE>
damnit
<HiRE>
you're right
<HiRE>
haha
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<no-defun-allowed>
APPLY?
<White_Flame>
it would be (apply #'or list) if OR were a function
<no-defun-allowed>
You would have to use SOME; and I would advise against using APPLY where you want to REDUCE because some implementations may have small argument limits.
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<Nilby>
And when you're familiar with those, then you can move on to the more vague temporally mutable versions: past-identity possible-position sometime once whenever and whatever.
<HiRE>
(whatever 'my-list)
<HiRE>
nondeterministic boolean function
<HiRE>
returns whatever it feels like at the moment
<HiRE>
thats on the same level of using #define in C to make your entire program read like a telegraph
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<loke>
(defun WHATEVER () (zerop (random 2)))
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<Nilby>
Also AMB, McCarthy's "angleic operator".
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<Nilby>
"angelic" that is
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<no-defun-allowed>
I've only really heard it being called the "ambiguous" operator.
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<Nilby>
I think it's called that since it hovers over your function and waits for it to die.
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<shka_>
good day!
<smokeink>
good Day
<shka_>
quick, general question, how to quickly generate colormaps?
<shka_>
maybe there is already some sort of library for that
<jackdaniel>
could you elaborate what do you mean by a colormap? and what representation is that you are expecting?
<shka_>
colormap as those found in software like matlab, that is: way to visualize value from 0.0 to 1.0 as a color from the range
<no-defun-allowed>
Some of those look like a gradient that just changes the hue, saturation or brightness.
<no-defun-allowed>
A first approximation could be to set up a HSV tuple for the minimum and another for the maximum, then lerp between those in a loop to generate the colours.
<jackdaniel>
clim could provide you with some primitives (it has functions for ihs and rgb color manipulation)
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<jackdaniel>
but there is no built-in function to generate a function [0;1] -> [r;g;b]
<jdz>
Umm, the backquote does not seem right, but you hopefully get the idea.
<KD35>
Thank you for your advice. I'm trying it now.
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<no-defun-allowed>
minion: memo for another-user: I came up with another trick for the brainfuck compiler; replacing the TAPE structure with two local variables drops the execution to 3 seconds on Clozure with the Mandelbrot program (and somehow it makes the SBCL compiler hang) which is 1/3 of the time the last compiler took.
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell another-user when he/she/it next speaks.
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<no-defun-allowed>
I wonder what makes the SBCL compiler hang on the generated code. It's a lot of code, sure, but it takes more than 30 seconds to compile and the only change was replacing the structure with local variables.
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<scymtym>
no-defun-allowed: is the code available?
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<no-defun-allowed>
The compiler, the generated CL code, or both?
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<scymtym>
if the compiler is self-contained, the compiler. and the problematic input program, probably. if it isn't too much trouble
<jdz>
no-defun-allowed: how do the two variables simulate a tape?
<no-defun-allowed>
jdz: One for the data, and one for the head address. I slack off like most implementations and use a finite-but-pretty-large tape.
<jdz>
I once wanted something similar, so I used two lists; moving through the "tape" would be popping elements from one list and pushing them to the other. Inserting at current position would be pushing to one of them, depending on whether it has to be inserted left or right of the "cursor".
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<jdz>
But using lists instead of a vector might have the obvious drawback.
<no-defun-allowed>
Yeah, I saw an implementation in Lisp do that. Specialised arrays are usually faster though, and we're playing a benchmark which is a very stupid game.
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<beach>
I know very little about this thing, but do you need insert/delete at arbitrary positions of the "tape"?
<beach>
If so, a Flexichain should be much better than a list.
<jdz>
no-defun-allowed: It's also funny that your implementation starts at the middle of the tape, and what I saw in other language entries is that they start at the beginning.
<no-defun-allowed>
beach: As in taking the "tape" (A B) and inserting C to get (A B C)? The target language only could write to get (A C) or (C B), depending on the head's position.
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<boeg>
What type does slot-values like `(:documentation "a docstring")` have? Like what are they? They don't appear to be like a cons or a list as far as I can see
<no-defun-allowed>
(The six instructions are to move the head either way, increment or decrement the value on the tape at the head, print the value at the head and loop.)
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<boeg>
actually seems they are just list
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<jmercouris>
how to test if connectivity to internet is available? drakma?
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<galdor>
"connectivity to internet" is not a one or zero thing
<jmercouris>
Yeah, that's a tough thing isn't it
<jmercouris>
how do I know if there just isn't an insane delay for packet loss or whatever
<galdor>
if you want to test if you can access a specific internet service, just try and see what happens
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<no-defun-allowed>
(usocket:socket-connect "1.1.1.1" 80) ;; provided you don't mind giving CloudFlare (or substitute for your own big company) a TCP connection
<galdor>
if you want to check for packet loss, it's a tricky subject, you may want to read about ICMP
<jmercouris>
I'll avoid X-Y'ing here
<jmercouris>
basically I want to check in Next if the user has a suitable internet connection, and if not, show the help page
<jmercouris>
I'm thinking probably I should try to use usocket as no-defun-allowed said and check their home page
<galdor>
you're the author of Next ? congrats !
<galdor>
it's an interesting project
<jmercouris>
thank you :-), yes I am
<galdor>
yeah, and then the browser will tell you internet is down because an admin blocked 1.1.1.1 on the network
<galdor>
the right way is to try to access the page normally, and handle socket errors to infer the possible causes of the errors
<no-defun-allowed>
jmercouris did then say "their home page", which I imagine is somewhat less likely to be blocked.
<galdor>
it's still wrong in general
<jmercouris>
perhaps drakma is the way then, try to fetch the home page
<galdor>
it's a bit like trying to check if a file is readable by various mechanisms before, you know, trying to read it
<galdor>
Next uses drakma for HTTP ? and CL+SSL ?
<jmercouris>
Not exactly no
<jmercouris>
Sometimes, yes
<jmercouris>
dexador sometimes
<jmercouris>
there is per-buffer VPN, Proxy, download, sometimes the web renderer port stack will load an asset, sometimes lisp directly
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<scymtym>
no-defun-allowed: Python tracks more properties for lexical variables than for structure slots. in this case it creates a million (quite literally) integer range types for the various variables (mainly POSITION, i think) and performs operations, mostly TYPE= in this case, on them
<no-defun-allowed>
Oh, fair enough then. Does it try to constrain my declarations further?
<scymtym>
i think (let ((position …)) <POSITION has a constant initial value or a declared type> (incf position) (incf position) …) leads to a fresh integer range type being associated with each program point, but i haven't looked that closely
<no-defun-allowed>
Right.
<no-defun-allowed>
One idea I'll test tomorrow (heading off to bed now) is putting each instruction in a FLET and inlining those functions. Would that avoid that inference (if you know off the top of your head)?
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<scymtym>
i think it would, but not sure
<scymtym>
even better would be if SBCL could just handle that code, of course
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<no-defun-allowed>
Sure. That probably is pathological stuff though, I don't think it's a problem that SBCL can't compile it quickly.
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<scymtym>
true
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<flip214>
luis: how about an option to increase slime hex message length indicator to 8 digits?
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<Xach>
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<beach>
no-defun-allowed: OK, I see. Thanks.
<beach>
boeg: That's not a slot. It's a documentation string.
<boeg>
beach: yes but isnt is saved as a slot value anyways? Anyways, its just a list i found out
<beach>
Yes, it is stored as a slot when it is a class or a generic function for instance, or a slot too as I recall.
<beach>
Then it is accessible using the function DOCUMENTATION.
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<boeg>
beach: yes, thank you
<_death>
no-defun-allowed: still it might just be low-hanging fruit to get it to compile faster.. e.g., during compilation I C-c C-c'd and it was at some pushnew form to component-reanalyze-functionals, which is a set represented as a list.. it was used in few places so I replaced it with a hash table (sbcl likely has a better representation for sets) .. this shaved a few seconds from compilation
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<kenu>
hi
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<kenu>
I've got a problem with postmodern's insert-dao, I've got (setq s-sql:*escape-sql-names-p* :literal), but then there is following error on inserting a record Database error 42703: column "updatedat" of relation "actions" does not exist
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<galdor>
positional parameters should not be quoted, and certainly not with double quotes
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<kenu>
yes, but that's produced by insert-dao
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<Xach>
kenu: can you show the code?
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<_death>
Xach: it's cool to resurrect such projects :)
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<chimneys>
what's the equivalent of eval (+ 2 3) in lisp
<chimneys>
I read gigamonkeys book am unable to eval
<beach>
chimneys: That *is* a valid Common Lisp expression.
<beach>
chimneys: Just type it to your REPL.
<chimneys>
no ( + 2 3) needs eval, without repl , hence the query
<dlowe>
chimneys: You want (eval '(+ 2 3)) but you really need to understand why
<dlowe>
and also if you want to store input code to be executed later, you're much better off wrapping it in a function and storing the result of CL:COMPILE to call later
<jackdaniel>
if you put (+ 2 3) in your source code it will be evaluated unless explicitly quoted
<jackdaniel>
(print (+ 2 3)) if you want a visible side effect
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<beach>
chimneys: This is the place where we typically ask "What is it that you *really* want to do?"
<pfdietz>
eval is almost never the right thing to be doing.
<chimneys>
jupyter notebooks %%writefile file.cl \n code.. shift+enter to get new cell then !clisp file.cl
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<pfdietz>
(and I say that as someone who does use it on occasion, but only when it's appropriate)
<jackdaniel>
a) learn, b) troll, c) move on, d) eval
<jackdaniel>
(I've suggested 4 answers to the typical question)
<jdz>
kenu: :col-name and :table-name, if I'm reading the documentation correctly.
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<jmercouris>
since declaim is implementation dependent, is it possibly that it could signal a condition in some implementations?
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<Bike>
sure, why not? (declaim 4) probably would
<jmercouris>
should declaim therefore be avoided in implementation independent code as it may cause issues?
<Shinmera>
anything can signal a condition (stack exhausted, memory exhausted, etc.)
<Bike>
uh, no? what?
<Bike>
if you use declaim/proclaim with a valid declaration specifier it shouldn't signal an error.
<Bike>
in the same way (+ 3 4) will probably not signal an error
<jmercouris>
shouldn't is different than cannot
<Bike>
proclaim is not particularly different from any function in the standard in terms of when it signals
<Odin->
In that case you shouldn't do anything, because you can't be sure the implementation actually implements the standard.
<Bike>
right.
<jmercouris>
the CLHS doesn't say that declaim WONT do something undesirable
<jmercouris>
I just want to know if I should avoid it or not
<jmercouris>
will it cause me issues with portability if I am to use it?
<Bike>
Not any more than calling + or PRINT would.
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<jmercouris>
OK, thank you
<Bike>
I don't understand why you think declaim is special in this aspect.
<Odin->
If it does cause any kind of issue, that would be an implementation bug, not a bug in your code.
<_death>
indeed.. and if you use nonstandard declarations, you may be able to use (declaim (declaration ...)) to tell other implementations to not warn
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<_death>
(but likely don't want to read the declaration name symbols anyway)
<jmercouris>
I see
<Bike>
I mean if you have a reason to think declaim is especially dangerous I'd like to hear it
<jmercouris>
I am just trying not to assume anything, that's all
<jmercouris>
I have it a lot in my codebase, was just questioning it
<Bike>
i see
<_death>
I think I used declaration declaration once :)
<pfdietz>
I used declaration declarationyesterday!
<pfdietz>
(adds space)
<_death>
what was it for?
<pfdietz>
The problem was to turn off inlining in a package. I did that by (conditionally) shadowing the symbol INLINE, then declaring the new symbol to be a declaration (which is then ignored).
<_death>
sneaky
<_death>
reminds me of #define private public
<jackdaniel>
very useful technique ;)
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<pfdietz>
Sneaky is when I write a macroexpand hook to automatically add the shadowing to a defpackage form at macroexpansion time.
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<phoe>
pfdietz: yes, that was a very good hack
<Xach>
but what about uiop:define-me-a-package
<jmercouris>
Xach: you get me there, I tried to find uiop:define-me-a-package
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<jmercouris>
I must have a too old verison of uiop :P
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<phoe>
(uiop:make-me-a-sandwich :sudo t)
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<Shinmera>
Colleen: make me a sandwich
<Colleen>
Not even in your dreams, buddy.
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<_death>
Colleen: sudo make me a sandwich
<Colleen>
Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, set, say, mop, get, time, tell, roll, help, deny,
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<jmercouris>
Shinmera: does Colleen perform the logging for you?
<Shinmera>
among other things yes
<jmercouris>
or is that a different program?
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<chimneys>
opusmodus vs openmusic what's the difference
<pjb>
Bike: declaim forms are data for the CL compilers, and for any tool that will take the source as input. Therefore it is as dangerous as any data. (declaim (launch-missile :type supersonic :target-coordinate (find-current-coordinate 'Bike))) if you happen to process this source with a program that is connected to the Russian missile network, you're toast…
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<Xach>
chimneys: they are different programs for different purposes.
<pjb>
jmercouris: the only thing of declaim and proclaim, is that they may mutate some global state. For example, the optimization levels. And there is no introspection of the declared (or declaimed) declarations! Therefore it is bad to use proclaim or declaim as toplevel forms in libraries!
<Demosthenex>
is there a cl lib for pgp or gpg? i was discussing doing a POC password repo and that came up. my google-fu can't seem to find a straight answer
<pjb>
jmercouris: you can instead write and export a function that will call proclaim to declare the things like you'd want them, and let the user call it. Of course, if you want to declaim stuff for compilation time, the user will have to load this function before compiling your library which can be difficult if this function is in your library…
<chimneys>
xach ok
<pjb>
Demosthenex: there's ironclad for cryptography.
<Xach>
Demosthenex: i don't know of one.
<jmercouris>
pjb: hm, cat and mouse problem
<Xach>
Demosthenex: the primitives are implemented in ironclad, but not drawn together in the overall format.
<Demosthenex>
pjb: i was reading that, it's a cl native crypto lib, but it also said limited support for public key crypto
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<jmercouris>
pjb: no wait, chicken and egg, sorry
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<Demosthenex>
grepping through quicklisp code, i'm seeing shell calls to gpg on occasion
<Xach>
i have implemented protocol-compliant signature verification but i am not interested in implementating encryption/decryption
<Odin->
Crypto is hard.
<chimneys>
Xach: on a side note, emacs does render graphics like tetris,images ,etc how?
<jmercouris>
chimneys: it is a long story, and not for this channel
<Odin->
chimneys: Emacs is its own environment.
<Demosthenex>
Odin-: i agree completely. which is why i was looking for a library
<pjb>
jmercouris: what I do, is write a separate, "tool" library, and instruct to load it first, use it to configure things, and then compile and load the target library.
<pjb>
jmercouris: this way the user is responsible for configuring his environment.
<Demosthenex>
_death: hey, that's a good find. a library for a wrapper lib ;]
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<HiRE>
Is there a nice way to expland a number into a list of bytes? For example, if I want a 4 byte representation of 13 in hex, I would get (#x00 #x00 #x00 #x0D)
<HiRE>
happy to write it myself. l1sp didnt turn up anything which is why I ask
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<Shinmera>
do note that byte does not equal octet.
<HiRE>
right. I do mean byte here so this will work.
<HiRE>
thank you!
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<pjb>
(loop with n = (random (expt 2 64)) for pos from 0 to 56 by 8 collect (ldb (byte 8 pos) n)) #| --> (205 7 220 165 176 97 6 156) |#
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<pjb>
HiRE: ^
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<HiRE>
thank you pjb :)
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<chimneys>
hey can we write GTA V in lisp? or flightgear fligt simulator
<Xach>
chimneys: yes
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<chimneys>
by avoiding C++ headache,
<chimneys>
I mean those are performance demanding games
<chimneys>
those are best seller games
<Xach>
ok
<pjb>
chimneys: I once considered merging flightgear with ecl, to be able to script it in CL…
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<beach>
chimneys: Common Lisp can generate code with performance comparable to that generated by a C compiler.
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<beach>
chimneys: Furthermore, as I often point out, given the manual memory management of C++, it is impossible to write a C++ program that is both fast and modular.
<beach>
chimneys: So if you want fast C++ code, you are in for a maintenance nightmare.
<pjb>
chimneys: it shouldn't be too hard to do: first compile flightgear as a library. Then link it with libecl in a single executable. Then add the flightgear API to lisp. Since it's already scriptable in lua IIRC, it shouldn't be too hard.
<Xach>
beach: on the other hand, games remind me of movie sets a little bit. they are not built to last or to be extensible, but to provide an entertaining brief impression and then be discarded. as long as they are captured once under the right conditions it is ok.
<pjb>
chimneys: now, IIRC flightgear uses C++, so it may be more indicated to use clasp (an ecl derivative optimized for C++ interaction), but clasp didn't exist at the time.
<Xach>
Many unacceptable shortcuts in building a place to live are acceptable in other contexts.
<pjb>
Not all games are games. Realistic simulators like flightgear are in a different category, and used not as games, but as training or study tools amongst other uses.
<beach>
Xach: I believe you. But the maintenance nightmare must be a problem during development as well, I would imagine.
<Xach>
I have not heard many stories about how pleasant it is to make games
<pjb>
For example, you could hook the worldwide flight data into flightgear and see real traffic.
<pjb>
Pleasantness is reduced by the capitalistic constraints on commercial game development…
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<Xach>
but the upside is you can pretend you are interacting with a space ship, and we can't really make space ships that millions can try yet, so
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<_death>
Xach: this is true, but in recent years some companies put a lot of effort in maintenance of existing games, especially if they have an "online community"
<Bike>
some people want to be space ship maintenance crew
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<Xach>
anyway, it makes me think about how many entertaining illusions are created by unsustainable practices and the magic is from a) not knowing that there's a trick involved or b) not knowing how the trick works or c) not believing that anyone would go to the lengths to make it work
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<chimneys>
xach run fortran routines and tell me the speed of your desktop mine is 200GFLOPS
<Xach>
chimneys: no.
<chimneys>
lisp is 4 times slower than java and C++ I checked on those benchmarks,so if your desktop is 4 times faster then lisp performance shouldn't matter
<beach>
chimneys: You should be very careful about believing such benchmarks.
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<beach>
chimneys: Most often, the comparison does not involve programs with the same semantics in the different languages involved.
<HiRE>
I think beach hit the nail on the head. You can't be both fast and modular. It's one of those attribute triangle problems.
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<HiRE>
chimneys is missing the GC optimization route. Benchmarks aren't perfect. Lisp is highly compiler dependent.
<HiRE>
I mean they power space shuttles with it so it's can't be that bad for real time/near real time work
<HiRE>
lol
<HiRE>
I think chimneys is vastly overestimating how optimized games actually are...last one I downloaded was 50GB and ran like garbage...
<HiRE>
really easy to fall into religious zealotry if you just cite benchmark-game.
<HiRE>
(you could argue real time doesn't imply fast but rather consistent...but you see my point)
<pjb>
HiRE: it depends. Modularity is in the source. We have compiler to mix and merge and optimize and remove generality.
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<Xach>
The answer to "Can I do X with Lisp?" is always yes, but the question of "Will it be as easy to do X in Lisp as it is in SomeOtherLanguage?" is usually "it depends a lot on X and SomeOtherLanguage"
<pjb>
eg. if a global analysis of your lisp program demonstrates that 1- the program never evaluates input (ie. it doesn't change at run-time), 2- at a call point, the arguments to a generic function are always of the same class, then it can hardwire the method called without computing anything.
<pjb>
And other such type-based optimization.
<pjb>
If it can prove it…
<HiRE>
yeah. To Xach's point the magic of turing completeness makes "can I do X in Y" vacuously true.
<HiRE>
Some languages have features that enable better developer interop, nicer structures to help think about things, etc.
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<HiRE>
at least this discussion is more thought provoking than "eww parentheses" :P
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<chimneys>
but still you yourself admitted C isn't faster than a factor of 10 that a good CL code, and processor capacity doubles every year so 2**3 = 8, so the hardware is lagging by only 3 years, and therefore the game too.
<chimneys>
infact they said numerous times on numerous sites CL generates C-like optimized code
<chimneys>
so I assume the factor is max 10
<pjb>
chimneys: the factor is less than 2 and some times CL is faster.
<pjb>
chimneys: check the cliki Performance page!
<chimneys>
so were are on the same page hen
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<_death>
high performance code is never vanilla C, so no need to expect it to be vanilla Lisp either
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<chimneys>
vanilla?
<_death>
chocolate, if you prefer
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<HiRE>
It's getting off topic but I'll leave it at this and clear channel. C++ is likely popular because of the extensive amount of libraries, bandwagoning, and developer interop.
<HiRE>
good for business.
<HiRE>
lisp has a significantly higher learning curve and thats not good for business.
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<chimneys>
which benchmarks on cliki compare C vs CL pjb
<chimneys>
I did android phone benchmarks and found 200Mflops desktop 200Gflop , and laptop 50gflops
<chimneys>
so the phone is thousand times slower, so the factor is 10 shouldn't even matter , even if it's 20, 2**4 = 16 , so you just lag by only 4 years?
<chimneys>
do you get my logic?
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<chimneys>
instead 4 years may take development time for GTA V
<chimneys>
so development time is the killer factor? no?
<chimneys>
also companies can save lots of money too, as it's less headache, for example google used Java and lost billion dollar lawsuit to oracle upon copyrights of Java in android
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<phoe>
why are we talking about GTA V development time and Java on Android in #lisp
<jackdaniel>
because that's what trol^W^W^W^Wheroes do
<Xach>
phoe: it died out
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<phoe>
I might have made a mistake yesterday
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<zigpaw>
should be ^H instead of ^W I think, but you did that on purpose didn't you? :P
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<jackdaniel>
zigpaw: yes, I forgot which was that, thanks! ;)
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<HiRE>
are we able to post code here for review? I have some stuff I'm working on and in a few days I'd like experienced eyes to rip it apart and make me cry.
<dlowe>
maybe you'd prefer #clschool
<HiRE>
oh ok
<phoe>
HiRE: and as long as you use any kind of pastebin service
<HiRE>
that was the plan. I wouldn't want to flood the channel.