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<LdBeth>
traditionally Lisp discourages using functions as first class objects
<LdBeth>
However Common Lisp absorbs the closure concept from Scheme, while it strives to remain compatible with older Lisps
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<LdBeth>
aeth: have you planned what kind of abstract machine model you're going to use when compile scheme to CL
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<LdBeth>
such as how would you represent Scheme closure in CL/would you perform optimizations before generating CL code
<aeth>
LdBeth: The machine is a trampoline that consists of a DO loop executing a returned thunk to get proper tail calls in all situations
<aeth>
A Scheme lambda is a CL lambda that undergoes continuation passing style transformations
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<jcowan>
LdBeth: In short, exactly how Guy Steele's Rabbit compiler translated Scheme to Maclisp.
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<LdBeth>
I thought it would be Appel's COMPILING WITH CONTINUATIONS
<LdBeth>
although I'm not very clear if LCF ML uses the similar approch
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<Fare>
reepca: patches welcome!
<Fare>
and apologies for the bug
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<KahMue>
Hi there! Does anybody know how, in qtools, to connect a slot to a signal that provides Qt-type like QPoint. I need to connect a slot to a QWidget::customContextMenuRequested - signal, that provides a 'const QPoint & pos'.
<KahMue>
How do I specify a QPoint - parameter in a 'define-slot' - expression?
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<splittist>
no-defun-allowed: isn't it usually Kaplan? (How about ML Scheme - or is that too Maoist?)
<no-defun-allowed>
Yes, Kaplan. I'm not good with names.
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<no-defun-allowed>
And no, Kaplan doesn't brutally optimise.
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<splittist>
no-defun-allowed: it's the old calculation problem...
<no-defun-allowed>
splittist: I would have picked someone like Makhno, who was on the receiving end of all that, as a namesake, but the almost-assassination felt more relevant.
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<phoe>
minion: memo for KahMue: (declare (connected my-widget (custom-context-menu-requested)))
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell KahMue when he/she/it next speaks.
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<Ampws>
I wonder if I could use Mathematica in a Lisp program.
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<Ampws>
I learned that MMA is just like a dialect of Lisp, and uses M-expressions
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<no-defun-allowed>
I think the semantics of Mathematica are quite different to Lisp, and even to many languages. Something to do with pattern rewriting maybe.
<no-defun-allowed>
(And, maybe you can use it, but paying $344 for a programming language makes it hard for me to test.)
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<Ampws>
Err...I've already owned that:)
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<Ampws>
I think combining them would be very useful
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<sarna>
hi, can I somehow get a warning with this code? `(make-array 3 :element-type 'invalid)`
<sarna>
I'm using SBCL
<Posterdati>
warning?
<scymtym>
sarna: in SBCL 2.0.1, i get a warning "undefined type: INVALID" when compiling that code
<sarna>
scymtym: oh, I have to compile it? I didn't get a warning in the REPL. thanks!
<Ampws>
no-defun, Thanks a lot!
<no-defun-allowed>
The description of HoldAll reminds me of...were they fexprs?
<Shinmera>
Ampws: could also use Maxima instead.
<Ampws>
Shinmera wow,I didn't noticed that. Thank you
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<Ampws>
no-defun fexprs...
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<no-defun-allowed>
Yes, fexprs. They're not really macros as they don't generate new code, but they get all their arguments unevaluated and choose which ones they evaluate. That seems similar.
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<Ampws>
I see...
<beach>
Speaking of Mathematica, my thesis advisor offered our high-performance rewrite engine to Stephen Wolfram, for use in Mathematica, but Wolfram turned down the offer.
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<beach>
Some day, I should try to implement our engine as a Common Lisp program. The compiler for it was written in Franz Lisp at the time, and it generated VAX assembly code. I am not sure whether it would be fast enough if Common Lisp code were to be generated.
<no-defun-allowed>
Oops.
<Ampws>
It must be a powerful program...and Common Lisp is the most powerful language
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<jackdaniel>
powerful in what? tug-a-war?
<beach>
The rewrite engine? No, not particularly powerful. Just very simple and with very simple semantics based on rewriting, so it uses outermost evaluation. With this evaluation strategy, it is possible to define things like IF as functions, which is not possible with call-by-value languages.
<beach>
Also, very fast compared to other rewrite engines.
<beach>
if[true; x; y] => x and if[false; x; y] => y
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<beach>
I shouldn't have said "a function". I should have used "rewrite rules".
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<beach>
But all that is off topic, so I'll quit now.
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<no-defun-allowed>
In a parallel universe where I asked follow up questions (such as "What constitutes a database in the programs you want us to write?"), I would have written an algebra system for my computing project last year instead of an accounting system. That could have been useful.
<beach>
Also much harder.
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<Ampws>
I found that maybe matlab could be run on lisp
<no-defun-allowed>
Sure, but it would require less fluffing up than the need for compressing an "inefficient" text database and writing a compression algorithm.
<beach>
no-defun-allowed: By the way, did they tell you your result?
<no-defun-allowed>
I haven't heard very many nice things about Matlab; why would you want to run it?
<Ampws>
nope I prefer Mathematica :)
<Ampws>
but I like lisp most
<no-defun-allowed>
beach: For Clomptroller? I only got a result for the whole unit (which also had my case study of a computer network) which was a B.
<Ampws>
err..(sorry for bad grammar)
<beach>
no-defun-allowed: That sucks, i.e. that you don't know the results for individual parts.
<beach>
But I think we discussed that problem in the past.
<no-defun-allowed>
Maybe I can email my teacher and see if he filled out the rubric. I think he was supposed to.
<beach>
I would be interested.
<no-defun-allowed>
However, if that is representative of what I achieved with Clomptroller, I would say that I blame myself for a. picking a domain I had little prior knowledge in, b. not taking enough time to learn said domain prior to planning a program that uses it. I think that forcing the students to use the waterfall model was also detrimental to the programs produced, and I found some of the steps redundant (like writing
<no-defun-allowed>
pseudocode for the compressor when I had already written Common Lisp code for it).
<no-defun-allowed>
no-defun-allowed: Maybe you should wait until you have more than two things to say before numbering them. Nice try though.
<no-defun-allowed>
Then there were some other "impedance mismatches" where we had to write out test tables and some other laborious methods of testing, whereas I was more comfortable writing test suites; and we were supposed to interpret the "design" stage as interface design instead of protocol design, drawing mockups instead of writing mock interfaces, and so on. In conclusion, I was quite disappointed with my performance in that
<no-defun-allowed>
project and a large amount of that was my own fault.
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<no-defun-allowed>
beach: So, I can guess that I had performed notably worse in those parts.
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<beach>
Hmm, OK.
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<no-defun-allowed>
I should not be lamenting over below average results while half asleep (nor is it exactly on topic), so I'll head off for the night. See you later.
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<jmercouris>
pjb: do I have to close the file?
<jmercouris>
pjb: I notice that both files are empty?
<jmercouris>
and yet, there is content in my slime REPL
<jmercouris>
maybe I need to launch outside of slime?
<pjb>
jmercouris: at least, you have to flush the buffers!
<pjb>
a log function would call finish-output or force-output…
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<jmercouris>
OK
<jmercouris>
still nothing even after force-output...
<jmercouris>
I think that slime may be messing with things here
<jmercouris>
strangely though, *standard-output* -> #<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM for "file /Users/jmercouris/.local/share/next/standard-out.txt" {100936F393}>
<jmercouris>
so it does seem to be correct...
<jmercouris>
let me try literally printing lol
<jmercouris>
hm, it does work
<jmercouris>
it seems that I need to add an appender to log4cl to also append to *standard-output* or so
<jmercouris>
thanks :-)
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<jcowan>
What is the current orthodoxy about the merits of using vs importing?
<mrSpec>
cgay: What is your question? I've tried brown/protobuf as it looked better
<Shinmera>
jcowan: don't use or import, use local nicknames instead.
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<no-defun-allowed>
jcowan: Many people avoid USE-ing packages, because they may cause symbol conflicts or their package may overwrite the used packages' state in some weird way, should they change.
<jcowan>
Shinmera: Not very portable, though
<Shinmera>
pretty damn portable now.
<cgay>
mrSpec: I'm trying to gather anecdata on whether breaking compatibility in that package would affect anyone.
<Shinmera>
The only impl without support (or announced support in next version) is Clisp
<jcowan>
So I see. Thanks.
<jcowan>
cgay: If you are worried, fork it with a new name.
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<Bike86>
using is probably more common in existing code, though
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<Bike86>
than importation, i mean, no idea about local nicknames
<Shinmera>
More and more of my libraries are making use of PLNs, so there's at least some of that out there now.
<jcowan>
Okay, that's encouraging. It's a nice convergence with Scheme, where all (pseudo-)package names are local.
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<cgay>
Shinmera: how are local nicknames achieved in practice? (Apologies, I'm only familiar with the way we do it at $work via a special defpackage* macro.) Pointer?
<cgay>
I see the SBCL-specific :local-nicknames option...
<Shinmera>
you just put (:local-nicknames (#:my-name #:full-name)) in your defpackage.
<Shinmera>
if the implementation supports plns it'll do the right thing. if not, it'll error.
<cgay>
ok, so that has pretty broad support?
<jcowan>
there is a runtime API too
<Shinmera>
yes
<cgay>
cool
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<Shinmera>
for the runtime API you need to use the trivial-package-local-nicknames library.
<jmercouris>
what is with this "trivial" prefix
<jmercouris>
it seems superflous
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<jmercouris>
isn't *every* library trying to make a task easier than it already is?
<Bike86>
it means the library itself is trivial, not its use
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<jmercouris>
it steel seems superflous
<Bike86>
it's like one file, that just conditionalizes on different implementations
<Bike86>
it is maybe overused, yeah
<Bike86>
but we don't always hold our meetings in Bordeaux, tragically enough
<jmercouris>
still* superfluous*
<jmercouris>
man what is going on with my spelling :-D
<jmercouris>
lol, soon enough
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<_death>
cgay: thanks for that protobufs reference.. I did not know about this library.. the brown one uses code generation, which is silly, and s-protobuf looked cool but was buggy and out-of-date.. this one's likely out-of-date as well, but maybe less buggy
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<cgay>
_death: why do you think code generation (via protoc) is silly?
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<_death>
cgay: CL is a dynamic, interactive language.. it's better to have a Lisp function that can read a schema and make it ready for use than to use a C++ tool to generate Lisp code every time
<jmercouris>
I'm having a fun time with some CFFI
<cgay>
A .proto file is the canonical definition of a protocol buffer. If you want to interface with other languages, you want your code to be compatible with the canonical definition.
<jmercouris>
Unknown GBoxed type 'WebKitNavigationAction'
<jmercouris>
YET!
<_death>
cgay: I believe the protoc approach came about because in C++ (and other statically typed language) such code generation is more tolerable
<no-defun-allowed>
You can generate the required classes and/or methods at runtime.
<_death>
cgay: what you say is true, but I don't see how it conflicts with what I said?
<jmercouris>
he is saying that the standard IS the implementation
<jmercouris>
so if you want to implement the standard, use the standard implementation
<jmercouris>
much in the same way that if I write a new python interpreter and add some features and/or different behavior than the standard one, I can expect my python will not work with other people's code so nicely
<no-defun-allowed>
That really sucks then.
<jmercouris>
you know what really really sucks? cryptic code with many layers of indirection to the point where it is fully undebuggable
<cgay>
_death: let's assume there were no .proto file to syncronize between languages. What do you envision is keeping them in sync? good will? :) It's the Interface Definition Language, to harken back to CORBA.
<_death>
cgay: I am not talking about proto:define-schema, which is nice to have, but something that can load a .proto file at run-time.. in C++ etc. they may assume it would have to be interpreted at runtime or something, but in Lisp you can just generate efficient code (say via COMPILE or EVAL)
<cgay>
oh. sure, that's fine.
<_death>
cgay: so then you have a load-proto-file and it's the lispy, dynamic, interactive way.. similar to LOAD
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<cgay>
just don't use define-schema directly. (unless you want to live in an only-lisp world.)
<_death>
cgay: instead of using protoc to generate a lisp file to load
<jmercouris>
here's the tough part, SHOULD THE STANDARD CHANGE, your Lisp code that generates the functions will have to change too
<jmercouris>
and so that is a moving maintenance target that I would rather not be responsible for
<cgay>
I mean, jmercouris is right, protoc is the standard.
<_death>
cgay: protoc is just a tool.. Google has a spec for the protobuf write format and interface description language
<_death>
*wire format
<jmercouris>
spec != implementation
<jmercouris>
the specification is most likely incomplete
<jmercouris>
the only true specification is the actual source code
<_death>
jmercouris: a spec is much better.. it is complete, because tons of google data is encoded using protobuf format
<jmercouris>
there are imprecisions in the spec that cannot be escaped, assumptions
<jmercouris>
unless the protocol is very simple
<_death>
and there are many tools to work with that, and they have a huge interest in maintaining backwards compatibility (that's a main reason for protobufs, after all)
<jmercouris>
but why is it called "protobuf"?
<jmercouris>
are you required to use a buffer?
<_death>
?
<jmercouris>
I mean I get the "protocol" part of the name
<jmercouris>
but why "buf"?
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<cgay>
Protocol buffer... because it's a buffer for a gRPC message and is re-used over and over (usually).
<_death>
because you can serialize stuff to a buffer :)
<jmercouris>
you could serialize stuff to disk as well
<jmercouris>
why not call it protodisk
<jmercouris>
you can serialize to any data structure
<jmercouris>
in any case, it is a google product
<cgay>
protostrings
<jmercouris>
and that is reason enough to not use it
<_death>
jmercouris: you may have to ask the original authors
<_death>
indeed it's a google product, but one they've become very dependent on, so there are parts of it they cannot change
<jmercouris>
that doesn't matter, I don't wish to tie myself to their stupidity train
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<cgay>
works pretty well though. :)
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<_death>
jmercouris: there are other formats, but there aren't many high quality lisp libraries for them
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<_death>
and cl-protobufs looks very good.. written by Scott McKay and friends, after all :)
<jmercouris>
be the change you want to see in this world
<jmercouris>
if you are OK with that, then no problem :-)
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<_death>
there are also many projects that use protobufs already, e.g. openstreetmaps.. so it makes it easier to play with them
<cgay>
what are the competing technologies (I mean if we're going to ignore protobuf because of politics)?
<cgay>
I guess there's Thrift. What's the story for that in CL? checking...
<_death>
thrift also had some Lisp pull request methinks
<_death>
there's also capnproto/flatbuffers/msgpack/etc
<cgay>
ah, right. thanks. (haven't looked at msgpack)
<_death>
oh, that avro thing..
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<_death>
ah, but cl-protobufs also has at least one bug ;).. and it's a FORMAT mess
<_death>
":~packed" in the format control string...
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<_death>
it's the same mistake as protoc, generating code by piecing together strings :/