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<aeth>
mfiano: is there a reason to use (:file "foo" :if-feature (:or :mezzano :abcl)) instead of #+(or mezzano abcl) (:file "foo") which is equivalent?
<mfiano>
Well, asd files are always loaded.
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<Nilby>
aeth: The :if-feature can more be easily be read without depeding on evaluation or environment, so simplifiing automatic processing of asd files.
<aeth>
Is there an equivalent in :depends-on?
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<Nilby>
You can use :feature in depends on.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<cl-arthur>
beach: Good morning!
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<aaaaaa>
beach: !
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<unixbsd>
hello
<unixbsd>
I would like to integrate with clisp. is it possible?
<beach>
Hello unixbsd.
<unixbsd>
hi
<beach>
Do you mean CLISP (an implementation of Common Lisp) or Common Lisp in general?
<unixbsd>
On linux raspberry pi zero... clisp yeah
<beach>
I am asking because CLISP is very likely the least popular Common Lisp implementation among people here.
<unixbsd>
is there lisp for apt-get in debian linux?
<beach>
Also, what do you mean by "integrate" in this context?
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<unixbsd>
integrate f(x) = x * cos(x) with dx and 1=>23
<unixbsd>
integrate f(x) = x * cos(x) with dx and 1=>2
<beach>
Well, for symbolic integration you would need a system like Maxima, which is written in Common Lisp, but you can do numeric integration just like with any other language.
<beach>
And I am afraid I don't know the answer to your question about apt-get.
<unixbsd>
ah ok,... which any other language for instance?
<unixbsd>
i tried maxima but i have issue iwth the Enter key, it seems maxima hangs
<beach>
You may want to ask loke (he hangs out in #clim) about Maxima.
<beach>
Common Lisp is not that different, so you can do numeric integration with it just as you can with C or Java or C++ or ...
<unixbsd>
yeah, but it would not be accurate as a CAS
<beach>
Right.
<unixbsd>
I am compiling giac on pi zero. it takes long
<beach>
So then ask loke about Maxima.
<unixbsd>
done
<beach>
I didn't see your utterance in #clim.
<unixbsd>
thank you.
<unixbsd>
now it is right channmel
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<andrew_znc>
Why do people even say good morning
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<adlai>
[within the correctly-defined conjugacy relation, ]"good morning" is equivalent to the inwards output of a traced call to #'listen, and it is often considered a polite declaration.
* adlai
invariably gets the mathematics terminology wrong on the first guess, more often due more to "a little learning is a dangerous thing" than clinical dyslexia
<ck_>
some mornings might even be good -- it's not completely out of the question
* adlai
wonders how often people question-modulate "gooooood moarning?", without expecting any response.
<adlai>
in less irrelevant questions: I am deeply dismayed after reading a few of the "Talk" pages in the RosettaCode website.
* adlai
was planning to attack another such task, as a gentle return to producing publishable code with roughly even GC-content (for the Sufficiently Smart Garbage Collector, that discards source code and only reads comments!); however, I find that my early experiences of absolutely no opposition to editing CL entries in that site are likely to simply gum up the personal arguments between a few of the
* adlai
behemoths.
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<adlai>
so the question is: does anyone have a Common Lisp task, in the RosettaCode website, that they specifically wish to see processed?
<adlai>
it doesn't even have to be a mathematical concept you've ever encountered before, although it should probably be mathematics rather than "make peripheral move pixel!"
<adlai>
it doesn't even have to be in that one website, although that is where I had a good first experience.
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<ck_>
do they have a delaunay triangulation in their list?
* adlai
limits search to common lisp tasks, by default :)
<adlai>
pfffff, no wonder that name doesn't appear in the prepared lists: "Boris Delone got his surname from his ancestor French Army officer De Launay"
<adlai>
what's the proper parallel to wikipedia's "Disambiguation page"s? for example, "what other name could a different website possibly use for describing <algorithm>"
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* adlai
gets the impression, from skimming the wikipedia page, that this algorithm is slightly too specific to be a popular one for chrestomathy; although, the search will now continue, back at the upstack site.
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* adlai
enjoys pretending dyslexia, possibly even a little too much: it lends the seemingly-sterile website an absence of lifelessness, to double-take and reread "Damn Algorithm"
<adlai>
and they have wonderful punts along the lines of "Fairshare between two and more", which I naturally read as "two must share fairly, while depersonalized More watch"
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<adlai>
ck_: should such a task's description stipulate any rendering whatsoever?
<adlai>
there are often solutions that provide rudimentary rendering to make clear the algorithm's purpose; it leads to a much more rapid triage than "read pageful of mathematics, now you have implemented the algorithm in mathematics"
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* adlai
is tempted to sneak one in as an "inefficient, due to bonus algorithm" solution, to the "Voronoi Diagram" page
<adlai>
that is a bad idea, because there appears to be spontaneous consensus among solvers of the "Voronoi Diagram" task that, despite the total absence of the stem "dimen" from the text, the words "and more" are superfluous.
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<ck_>
adlai: a triangulation does not need rendering to be valid. Also, I believe creating a Voronoi Diagram by first constructing the Delaunay Triangulation, then computing its dual, is a little more easily done than implementing the Voronoi partition directly
<adlai>
my impression, before reading the author's description of the original problem, and his proposed algorithm, is that a heuristic approach violates an unspecified expectation of determinism, even in the cases of equivalently-optimal triangulations.
<adlai>
ck_: well, I am inclined to agree with that belief, because the two-dimensional examples appear to discard information from the dual; however, this violates my misguided mathematical intuition.
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<adlai>
ck_: exhaustive search abandoned; heuristic converged on "no".
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* adlai
will have failed his own unspecified constraint if he needs to open Oxford's there-and-back-again spinal compression paperweight while reading various incidental guidelines in the website hosting the old paper
<adlai>
understanding the content is difficult, although I have convinced myself that most of the words can be pronounced understandably.
<adlai>
ugh, after all that multilinguality theatre, their foreign downloader license agreement is in english.
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<jfb4>
kite.com has code completion for many languages using ML. Is there a similar tool for Lisp? Or is that less necessary for Lisp given the higher density of information (ie other languages have more boilerplate)? Thoughts welcome
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<reb>
I have not seen anything like that for Lisp.
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<Xach>
jfb4: slime give hints and some completion but not in the same style.
<Xach>
jfb4: i think programming languages that bundle functions as properties of classes or objects make certain kinds of completion easier than lisp's everything-looks-like-a-function-call style
<Xach>
I think there's plenty of room for nicer tools but not the skill or time to make it.
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<Xach>
There's a local defunct rock band named "space versus speed" and I wonder if they were CL hackers.
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<beach>
I wonder whether the Common Lisp package system could play a role similar to that of a class in traditional object-oriented languages, as far as completion goes.
<beach>
With package-local nicknames, it may be possible to just type a prefix such as e: and then get a list of exported symbols to choose from. Not sure that's enough of course.
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<beach>
The role of a symbol could be used as well, like if it is in a function position or a variable position.
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<MichaelRaskin>
With SBCL-level type inference, given a function name an argument could be known to have to come from a more narrow set of options
<beach>
That too.
<dim>
easye wow thank! phoe the value of pgloader.jar is all to be found in the capacity to use JDBC drivers (native java drivers) where Common Lisp drivers don't exist or are of poor quality and unmaintained, such as, well, anything other than SQLite and Postgres so far
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<phoe>
dim: I'm aware, I was kidding :D
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<phoe>
I don't have the problem you're describing because I usually type my Lisp code into a file and send it to get compile-and-loaded in Lisp via slime/swank
<phoe>
whenever I change anything in the file I can reevaluate the individual form or the whole file
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<asdflkj>
slime definetely looks better, but I was hoping to procrastinate learning it until after learning lisp
<asdflkj>
learning emacs*
<Bike>
just keep in mind that, as you've already discovered, the repl alone is kind of a crappy way to develop
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<asdflkj>
I just installed the clisp_2.49 from my distro's repos
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<Bike>
kay. the second one is notably kind of crappy so it's worth keeping in mind
<asdflkj>
and invoke it as `clisp`
<phoe>
asdflkj: slime is the proper way of using Lisp interactively - allowing you to work on multiple windows at the same time, including source code, REPL, debugger, and inspector
<phoe>
also cross-references, finding callers/callees and such
<asdflkj>
phoe: it does sound like the best way, but I'm just trying to learn lisp itself right now and learn emace if/when I really grow to like lisp
<asdflkj>
emacs*
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<phoe>
yep, I understand that; the troublesome thing is that it requires learning emacs, which is a tough thing
<phoe>
however I know that slyblime for sublime text and atom-slime for atom also exist; I have not tried them though
<asdflkj>
I'm using vis
<asdflkj>
a modern vi, simpler than vim
<Bike>
there's slimv. dunno if it works with vis though.
<asdflkj>
and kind of like sublime bc it supports multiple cursors natively
<asdflkj>
Bike: no, I don't think it would. But I might not mind switching to nvim if it's really worth it
<asdflkj>
but just vis *.lisp; then :w and ^Z clisp -i *.lisp seems like the best option for just dipping my toes in lisp
<asdflkj>
but thank you phoe and Bike
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<pve>
asdflkj: you could have the editor in one terminal, and lisp in another, so you don't need to suspend the editor all the time
<asdflkj>
good point
<pve>
and in lisp, you might define a simple convenience function (defun r () (load "mylispfile.lisp"))
<pve>
so you can reload your changes without quitting lisp
<asdflkj>
done, thanks!
<pve>
asdflkj: and if you're lazy, you might even do (define-symbol-macro rr (r))
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<asdflkj>
pve: even better! I'm so new I literaly haven't learned how to define macros yet (or to spell that l work, lol)
<asdflkj>
so I wouldn't have been able to do it without you, thanks!
<pve>
asdflkj: that's alright, it's important to achieve a tight feedback loop even if your not using any fancy tools
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<pve>
i wonder if you could trigger a reload from within the editor..
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<asdflkj>
probably
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<asdflkj>
`:map normal gr ":w<Enter>:!clisp -i $vis_filepath"` is a start
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<asdflkj>
the only thing that may be a disadvantage (?) is completely restarting the repl every time I modify the code
<asdflkj>
so maybe I'll do a tmux hack
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<asdflkj>
alright, I've got `:map! normal gr ":w<Enter>:!tmux select-pane -R; tmux send-keys r r Enter <Enter>"`
<asdflkj>
using the rr macro
<asdflkj>
so now `gr` in normal mode saves the file, switches terminal panes, and sends the keys rr and hits Enter
<Bike>
depending on your code, you may be able to reload it without restarting the implementation
<Bike>
functions can be redefined and etc
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<pve>
asdflkj: sounds great
<asdflkj>
pve: thanks
<pve>
no problem, happy hacking
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<phoe>
the fact that it's written in S-expressions does not yet make it Lisp - WASM is a good example of that
<meowphius>
sorry, meant s-expressions
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<moon-child>
tbf, most attempts to make a lisp syntax that aren't sexpy have been garbage (see: m-exprs, tree notation), so it's easy to conflate the two
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<asdflkj>
does haskell count?
<Duuqnd>
no
<asdflkj>
also, why do I see so many moonchildren. I use Palemoon by moonchild, I've seen a moonchild on Hacker News recently, and now I see a moon-child.
<asdflkj>
by Moonchild Productions*
<phoe>
it is full moon today and therefore lunar activity is very high
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<Gnuxie[m]>
call her moonchild, dancing in the shallows of a river
<aeth>
Lisp syntax has two weaknesses... (1) 1D array access (most languages have something convenient like "a[1]", on the other hand AREF makes it easier to have 0D, 2D, 3D, etc. arrays)
<aeth>
and (2) infix arithmetic looks a bit awkward in prefix if you've never seen it before
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<Duuqnd>
I wouldn't consider those to be weaknesses
<asdflkj>
as an absolute noob at lisp who likes bash, I hate writing functions that run on the eachother in the opposite order from the one they run
<asdflkj>
I miss writing pipelines from left to right
<aeth>
Duuqnd: it's more, you don't even notice the difference between s-expressions and not, until you need to convert (4 * (a[1] + b[2])) / 3
<aeth>
that one in particular isn't that bad, though... (/ (* 4 (+ (aref a 1) (aref b 2))) 3)
<aeth>
And you can construct ones that are more convenient, like if you have a lot of consecutive additions or multiplications.
<aeth>
Ones where you idiomatically would put fewer parentheses in infix (my example only adds one pair if you don't count the [] replacements) are arguably the worst translations.
<MichaelRaskin>
I often find myself using some kind of pipe-like macro in Common Lisp
<MichaelRaskin>
These are usually not hard to write (and some are available in existing libraries)
<aeth>
I think the real question is, should you weaken the rest of the language's syntax in order to make this fairly common edge case more convenient? (Or others that are probably a bit less common.) And I'm guessing, probably not.
<aeth>
Some non-CL Lisps come with some form of "inline" infix for arithmetic, though.
<MichaelRaskin>
But yeah, there are cases where shell pipelines are just more convenient. As long as you do not do too much in each step…
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<MichaelRaskin>
There are even reader macros for Common Lisp and infix arithmetics, I think
<aeth>
I don't think anyone would like a project that used it, though. I guess unless array arithmetic was really, really, really the heart of the project and it really helped. You're still basically making a different DSL and embedding it, though.
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<moon-child>
asdflkj: I'm the moonchild on HN. Didn't make palemoon, though (I have better taste than to touch web stuff :)
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<asdflkj>
the reason I use Palemoon is that I have better taste than to touch web extensions. Pentadactyl = <3
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<moon-child>
qutebrowser?
<moon-child>
(or, perhaps more to the point, waterfox. These days I just use straight ff tho)
<moon-child>
(also nyxt, though it doesn't seem to work on freebsd)
<asdflkj>
I might try luakit later, and if/when I fall in love with lisp, configure it with fennel
<aeth>
On a second read, I should note that, MichaelRaskin's pipe-style macros that sort of mix up the evaluation rules are way less out of place than infix reader macros.
<aeth>
If it requires a macro, it might work. If it requires a reader macro, it's a tough sell to get anyone to use it.
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<lottaquestions>
minion: what is alexandria
<minion>
maybe you need to ask my master, chandler - he knows a lot
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