<andres-calderon>
You can see that each board has a different connector?
<andres-calderon>
non a common block connector
<wolfspraul>
yes but they all seem mostly to be a random variation of P+ P- C D T
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: if you still have these battery controllers, could you please take a high-resolution photo of each and upload it somewhere ? (qi-hardware.com wiki or such)
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: that way, more people can try to find out how these thingies work
<andres-calderon>
wpwrak ok, I'll upload them.
<wpwrak>
thanks !
<wolfspraul>
unfortunately there is quite a bit of glue on some of them
<wolfspraul>
andres-calderon: given how the industry works, there is very little real innovation actually
<wpwrak>
let's hope for the best then :)
<wolfspraul>
so even though every company wants to have their own connector to sell batteries at a huge margin, electrically it's all the same
<wolfspraul>
just for small variations in the mechanical alignment and shape of the connector (maybe patented :-))
<wolfspraul>
I would say that's true for anybody but Apple, maybe Sony.
<wolfspraul>
the rest is all the same, no worries :-)
<wolfspraul>
once you understand the circuit, that is
<andres-calderon>
jeje... I like the idea of using some of them.
<andres-calderon>
But as I said, I worry about the mechanical coupling.
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: what is actually the plan so far for the power supply of xue ? i haven't found any power connector.
<andres-calderon>
wpwrak design from scratch,  again..
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: maybe you saw above, I asked about Sensor PSU and Andres said "copied from Aptina reference design unchecked"
<wolfspraul>
he likes the idea of moving the sensor (and sensor psu) to a daughterboard
<andres-calderon>
I chose wrong ... none of the AiT component is available.
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: hm. okay, there's one (non-technical) oddity: wolfgang mentioned that carlos told him xue was ready for production and carlos was complaining that wolfgang didn't move forward.
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: i think that, from this, wolfgang got the idea that also you would consider xue to be "finished". and he was disappointed to find out that the reality is very different.
<andres-calderon>
xue was NOT ready for production
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: so .. what happened ? :-)
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: (NOT ready) good that we agree on this ;-)
<andres-calderon>
wpwrak Carlos is very enthusiastic.
<andres-calderon>
has been a misunderstanding
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (2nd psu) yes, that's a different story. (having everything sensor-related on the same board makes perfect sense, of course)
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: okay. is there any external pressure on the schedule ? e.g., have you or has carlos committed any schedule in the near future to any presentations, customers, or such ?
<andres-calderon>
wpwrak We have no external pressure.
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: because if he or you feels in a rush for some reason, that's probably also something wolfgang should know. if only to correct unrealistic expectations :-) but sometimes, things can also be helped in other ways
<wpwrak>
okay, great. just a communication glitch then.
<andres-calderon>
Yes, an stupid glitch :)
<andres-calderon>
just noise in the channel
<wpwrak>
heh ;-)
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: now .. now that it seems quite a few things will change, are there any other items in the current xue design that you'd rather change ?
<andres-calderon>
I feel lost with the design of the PSU. We not have experience with chinese and TW manufactures...
<wolfspraul>
andres-calderon: going forward, let's try to use only public communication to discuss the state and progress and plan for Xue
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: you mean the AiT parts ? where does this design came from ?
<andres-calderon>
Yes, AiT parts...
<wolfspraul>
for example this channel is logged, so it helps avoid misunderstandings
<wolfspraul>
but the first application would just be the camera as discussed
<andres-calderon>
an artificial vision platform
<wolfspraul>
we chose the APtina sensor already, and I have it in stock (bad decision, too early!)
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
so that's roughly my vision
<wolfspraul>
on the current Xue, I would remove the AVR
<wolfspraul>
I would move the Aptina to a daugtherboard (just move the expansion header in a little)
<wolfspraul>
I would remove the ft2232d and provide the same headers as on milkymist one, for use with the jtag-serial daughterboards I am already making
<wolfspraul>
I would investigate the notebook battery controllers see whether that's a quick and dirty solution to hookup batteries to Xue
<wpwrak>
remove AVR -> probably remove the four FAN4010 too
<andres-calderon>
HDR is a nice feature. We will gain attention  for this feature.
<wolfspraul>
I would leave the spi-nand as is, a switch to nor flash would destroy too much value in Xue and I guess the technical challenge of spi-nand is under control
<wolfspraul>
sure remove the FAN
<wolfspraul>
oh my vision is also to keep the costs down
<wolfspraul>
that's one reason why I like spi-nand
<wolfspraul>
and why I like to remove the ft2232, because later less and less people will need it, so daughterboard is better, especially since we have it already due to m1
<andres-calderon>
I do not like the  jtag daugtherboard connector...  is enormous
<wolfspraul>
maybe we can bring the cost of the xue base board under 100 USD
<wolfspraul>
that would be cool
<wolfspraul>
it's smaller than all the chips you put on the board now
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: sharing the ft2232 with MM1 also reduces the design risk
<wolfspraul>
if one design idea of xue is the expansion header, that means the board will gain height anyway
<wolfspraul>
so another (small) daughterboard somewhere will not make it more bulky overall
<wolfspraul>
just fill space that would otherwise be air
<andres-calderon>
in fact, are 2 connectors...  but with the space released by the CIS boards.. may be will be a good choice
<wolfspraul>
the Ethernet connector for example is really big, I doubt the jtag-serial daughterboard on xue would even be higher than that connector
<wpwrak>
(jtag) hmm, 2mm spacing, 14 pins of which ~9 are used
<wpwrak>
MM1 schematics just say "Header 4" for J5. grrr.
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wolfspraul>
the issue is HEIGHT
<wolfspraul>
we are talking about 4 connectors in total, right?
<wolfspraul>
2 on the top, 2 on the bottom
<wolfspraul>
and they need to meet in the middle at the same height
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: no problem so far :)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: no. only each pair has to have the same height.
<wolfspraul>
we've made a few of these boards already, and every time it was a hassle with the height, well, unless for the help of the tool I just pointed to :-)
<wolfspraul>
but anyway
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: so take two board-to-board connectors, M and F. put M:1x4 and F:2x7 on one board and F:1x4 and M:2x7 on the other
<wolfspraul>
how we have those jtag-serial boards already
<wpwrak>
(or make one all-male and the other all-female)
<wolfspraul>
yes and then most likely the two will not match
<wpwrak>
you probably mixed series. that's when the problems start ;-)
<wolfspraul>
but anyway, for Xue this is no issue
<wolfspraul>
just use the same connectors as on m1, done
<wpwrak>
as long as you stay within the same series, the only differences you get are component tolerances and positioning errors. can't avoid these. but they're usually not overly bad.
<wolfspraul>
that's the jtag-serial side, but it should exactly match the other side
<andres-calderon>
i know.. I'm almost asleep, sorry
<wolfspraul>
then sleep a bit, we learnt a lot already :-)
<wolfspraul>
thanks for sharing your views!
<wolfspraul>
btw, I'm currently making 100 of these critters, I think that's the first 'real' KiCad run in a while
<wolfspraul>
unfortunately no fped, didn't find the time to fpedize it
<andres-calderon>
we need to seriously review the issue of the PSU. I listen carefully any idea.
<wolfspraul>
but we use the KiCad generated gerbers for pcb, stencil, etc.
<wolfspraul>
andres-calderon: is the PSU on Ben NanoNote any good?
<wolfspraul>
I only have extremely high-level thoughts on the psu.
<andres-calderon>
I can  use the charger BEN
<wolfspraul>
probably not very helpful
<wolfspraul>
well the Ben has a battery
<wolfspraul>
and it's very robust
<wolfspraul>
you can plug in or out the battery
<wolfspraul>
it will start charging
<wolfspraul>
it all seems to work
<wolfspraul>
and it's all done in a simple and cheap circuit, afaik
<wolfspraul>
Xue has different, I understand higher, power requirements? So I'm not sure whether the Ben circuit applies.
<wpwrak>
ben charger isn't too horrible. you can probably get rid of the FETs with a different chip, though, without picking anything overly exotic
<wolfspraul>
andres-calderon: did yousee the link to the Ben BOM?
<andres-calderon>
yes
<wolfspraul>
the parts should be in there, let me check (it's already a while ago...)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: are all the ben parts considered easily available ?
<wolfspraul>
that's a bit too broad
<wpwrak>
hehe ;-)
<wolfspraul>
but definitely not a more bold statement than saying 'check digikey'
<andres-calderon>
wolfspraul: the BEN battery  charger can be enough
<wolfspraul>
so if 'check digikey' works, then 'ben parts can generally be considered widely available' also works
<wpwrak>
*grin*
<wolfspraul>
well, same as in digikey, there can be exceptions/surprises on individual chips
<wolfspraul>
but for the most part, yes, sure, can be assumed to be widely available
<wpwrak>
simple but not quite correct rules are good. with them, you can impress people, because those simple rules show the clarity of how you see simplicity in the complexity. and you can impress people again when the rules don't work, because you wisely deviate from the beaten path where appropriate. you can't lose ;-)
<wolfspraul>
hmm, that ben .ods bom is not so great
<wolfspraul>
no links to datasheets
<wolfspraul>
we have improved since then :-)
<wolfspraul>
you need to cross-reference it with the schematics
<wpwrak>
i like the inventory
<wolfspraul>
but other than that it works
<wolfspraul>
oh, I want to get the inventory into boom standard :-)
<wolfspraul>
but one by one
<andres-calderon>
I go to sleep. Bye
<wolfspraul>
'night
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: cya !
<andres-calderon>
wpwrak: buenas noches
<wpwrak>
with each digi-key parcel i get, i feel guilty for not tracking them in a boom-friendly format
<wolfspraul>
boom united
<wolfspraul>
amateurs of the world connect to form the largest inventory of strange stuff
<wpwrak>
heh. larger than digi-key's database ;-)
<wpwrak>
well, i'd say the xue situation looks a lot friendlier than it did just two days ago. alas, also with a schedule that extends deeper into 2011.
<wolfspraul>
I enjoy walking my mind through it.
<wolfspraul>
it's scary to read how many things are supposedly based on my suggestions or decisions though
<wolfspraul>
very scary
<wpwrak>
good :)
<wolfspraul>
but oh well
<wpwrak>
yes, indeed ;-)
<wpwrak>
we found the implicit answer to the ownership question
<wolfspraul>
yes but if that's all, it means the board is doomed
<wolfspraul>
good thing I think this is not all
<wpwrak>
yeah, that ownership needs to move again. you don't need it :-)
<wpwrak>
let's hope andres has enough time to do all the things that need doing
<wpwrak>
yes ! the fped fix fixed the weird build problem on sh4 ! :)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: sh4, that's where fped will take off
<wolfspraul>
guaranteed
<wpwrak>
definitely ;-)
<wpwrak>
debian on sh4 appears to have some odd shell. either a different kind of shell, or something much older or newer than the rest.
<wpwrak>
that shell prints the "Aborted" when a program aborts not to that program's stderr but to the shell's stderr. this threw off my regression tests.
<wolfspraul>
mechanically you cannot be that fast, maybe if you have a switch further down somewhere
<wolfspraul>
we can't resolve it here so let's see what further tests show
<adamwang>
even if this test was stupid at all, it's still existed.
<wolfspraul>
maybe Sebastien can find some root causes of flash corruption
<wolfspraul>
maybe the Xilinx FAE can find some root causes in the fpga power-up sequence
<wolfspraul>
slowly we will understand it better
<wolfspraul>
all Xilinx boards show this too, btw
<wolfspraul>
Sebastien is aware of this bug forever, he even thinks it might be a 'silicon bug' although I think we should not jump to such conclusions and just dig in step by step
<wolfspraul>
he has seen this bug on the ml-401 xilinx board, etc.
<wolfspraul>
all under control :-)
<wpwrak>
but flash corruption != the power cycle thing, right ?
<wpwrak>
the latter is terminal, the former not
<wolfspraul>
then there are 2 stages of 'terminal'
<wolfspraul>
flash corruption can be remedied with reflashing
<wpwrak>
okay, ICU :)
<wolfspraul>
this bug is rare, so tracking it down is hard. there may be multiple bugs masking each other.
<wolfspraul>
if you are talking about something you have seen once, reading too much into it doesn't help.
<wolfspraul>
this whole thing is unfortunate, without a doubt
<wolfspraul>
we won't rest until it is fully understood and more robust
<wolfspraul>
we had it on rc1 as well, btw, only that there were so few boards that it almost never showed up
<wolfspraul>
Adam has a pretty good attack plan.
<wolfspraul>
and I'm sure if Sebastien can reproduce it, every time he can he will try to peel off another layer from the onion, no? :-)
<wolfspraul>
also I don't want to get completely side-tracked by this bug. that's the advantage of working with 40 boards first-hand for 2 weeks. I have a pretty good feeling on the severity of issues.
<wolfspraul>
this one, even though it sounds scary, is not at the top
<wpwrak>
the flash corruption doesn't sound so nasty. inconvenient for sure, and if it happens frequenty and under any operating condition, may disqualify the device for the intended use. but that's probably still a bit out.
<wolfspraul>
I highly doubt that.
<wolfspraul>
there is a lot of alpha-level code in the stack
<wolfspraul>
keep in mind how 'early' all this is
<wpwrak>
yes, that's why i say it still takes a while before this becomes the #1 blocker
<wolfspraul>
at those low levels hardware and software need to get really cozy with each other to become 'robust' to the higher levels
<wpwrak>
of course, for a VJ it would be rather embarrassing if the box all of a sudden doesn't boot ;-)
<wolfspraul>
maybe the flash writing or reading routines need to become more forgiving
<wolfspraul>
it's hard to say
<wolfspraul>
also I doubt sebastien will stop everything else and only hunt down this thing, it's too rare
<wolfspraul>
it's not the right priority
<wolfspraul>
put in some way to log/see what's going on, slowly make the codes more robust
<wolfspraul>
that's the way to go
<wpwrak>
but the fpga killer could be trouble even now. particularly if you don't know what exactly triggers it. could be that your test that needs hundreds of cycles is not the most "efficient" or common way to make it happen.
<wolfspraul>
meanwhile Adam will go to the Xilinx FAE and that should be very nice too
<wpwrak>
yup
<wolfspraul>
yeah we treated those 2 boards pretty badly, he he
<wolfspraul>
it's close to the hammer
<wolfspraul>
but once I go into testing mode, well, I do
<wolfspraul>
adamwang: did I personally 'terminate' those 2, or you 1 and me 1? I forgot...
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
they will haunt you in your dreams
<wolfspraul>
well I took it sportive. I said 'let's see what's really going on in this power cycling thing' "let's stress test it a bit"
<wolfspraul>
that was not a brilliant idea in hindsight
<adamwang>
0x2c you & me did, 0x07 you did. your hands were lucky.! :)
<wolfspraul>
so now I handed back to cooler heads
<wolfspraul>
I seriously forgot that it doesn't make sense to run a test that is totally removed from normal use patterns.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: get the process patented. then, when any other device fails in a remotely similar way, sue them ;-)
<wolfspraul>
at some point anything can be 'unforeseen' and damage the board.
<wolfspraul>
run it in a sauna?
<wolfspraul>
etc.
<wolfspraul>
it's also a bit stupid
<wolfspraul>
maybe a VJ wants to perform in a Turkish steam bath?
<wolfspraul>
we should test that
<adamwang>
hey, don't say in stupid way
<wolfspraul>
humidity so high that there will be drops of water everywhere immediately
<wpwrak>
water-proofing the box wouldn't be the worst possible idea
<wolfspraul>
adamwang: well I think it was a bit not-thought-through. so you were right :-)
<adamwang>
any software test plan you guys are also pretty sure they are perfect? That's the same story on h/w
<wolfspraul>
you suggested to first study some more, then test. but I thought test first, collect data :-)
<andres-calderon>
the Nano charger need one ADC input (+VBAT signal),
<andres-calderon>
I worry a little with the  charger operation when the fpga is not programmed to control the charger.
<wolfspraul>
the Jz4720 ADC is connected to that line? (not sure what you mean) if the jz4720 can control it, why shouldn't the fpga be able to control it?
<wolfspraul>
well, I have no overview over the circuit :-)
<andres-calderon>
PBAT/ADIN0 pin 92
<andres-calderon>
from de 7z47xx IC
<andres-calderon>
I'm going to study better the design of the NN charger. Maybe I'm asking too early.
<wolfspraul>
your concern is that the fpga cannot control that wire? I know too little to give meaningful feedback.
<wolfspraul>
of course I can study too and start learning :-)
<wolfspraul>
andres-calderon: ahh, you mentioned that you received the M12 lense holders?
<wolfspraul>
what do you think?
<wolfspraul>
next time I will start to buy some M12 lenses
<wolfspraul>
fine out which lenses exist, different types (IR filter, no IR filter, telecentric, wide-angle, etc)
<andres-calderon>
wolfspraul the holders seem enough for the project.
<wolfspraul>
did I only send you the plastic type, or also metal?
<wolfspraul>
next time I send you metal as well
<wolfspraul>
plastic type costs 3 US cents
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
metal ca. 15 US cents
<wolfspraul>
one thing we have to find out is how to make the bottom side sit tight on the pcb
<wolfspraul>
so that no light gets in from the bottom
<wolfspraul>
not sure, I know nothing about these things...
<andres-calderon>
I received 3 plastic type holders.
<andres-calderon>
seem designed to be fixed with screws.
<wolfspraul>
unlike Andrey I think none of use can do some math to calculate the effect :-)
<andres-calderon>
wolfspraul: another design constrain to evaluate...  how to connect the sensor board: 1. block connector (like in the Surveyor) or 2. flat flexible cable (like in the elphel cam)
<wolfspraul>
I would make it a daughterboard using the expansion header we already have on Xue
<wolfspraul>
probably that daughterboard sitting flat on top of Xue, back towards where the fpga is (basically where the current sensor is just a little higher)
<wolfspraul>
then point the lense upwards as right now
<wolfspraul>
those things are easily changed I guess. I would just start with the current expansion header.
<wolfspraul>
andres-calderon: can the fpc end directly into the expansion header?
<wolfspraul>
it's quite a bulky connector, for a high density fpc I'm not sure how easy it is. normally they go into those flat connectors.
<andres-calderon>
wolfspraul: i guess..
<andres-calderon>
we can use the Ben flat connectors.
<andres-calderon>
have enough lines
<wolfspraul>
there is no need to use the Ben connectors only because I may have a few of them in stock
<wolfspraul>
we can focus on the connectors that are best for Xue
<wolfspraul>
excellent work from Sebastien (really)
<wolfspraul>
we just screwed it together...
<lekernel>
:) thanks
<tuxbrain_away>
lekernel: congrants lekernel btw can you also advice Tuxbrain will have some too ? :P
<lekernel>
sure, when you have them i'll put a link to tuxbrain
<tuxbrain_away>
thanks :)
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: (PBAT/ADIN0) i don't think this is part of the control loop
<wpwrak>
lekernel: nice demos ! too bad there's no sound.
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: (connector) another thing to consider is how the boards connect mechanically. e.g., you may want a hole for a spacer in each corner of the sensor board, and matching holes on the main pcb.
<lekernel>
well those video suck, and don't even reflect the current state of the software
<lekernel>
I lack time and motivation to re-shoot some
<lekernel>
but it's encouraging you find them nice already :)
<andres-calderon>
wpwrak: i agree, but its a nice feature can stimate  the battery level.
<wpwrak>
lekernel: hehe ;) for sound, dunno if you also make music. there's a cute litte device made my Koss called the Kaossilater that's quite handy for producing nice-sounding loops, even for the musically challenged (like me ;-)
<lekernel>
oh, well
<wpwrak>
lekernel: of course, i feel rather embarrased when a friend who does make music gets to play with it and produces something that sounds great in just a few minutes
<lekernel>
mid January I should have a milkymist workshop + party in a Berlin kind-of club/artist space
<lekernel>
I should have proper music there, and a nice setting
<wpwrak>
lekernel: some "quick hacks" on the music side would help to have stuff you can publish without copyright issues
<wpwrak>
ah yes, that ought to be great
<lekernel>
I should also pull of the video input there
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: adc are somewhat unreliable for Li batteries, because of their discharge profile. but yes, it's better than nothing.
<lekernel>
I got myself a decent camera, and many of the visikord effects you've seen on youtube work on milkymist now
<wpwrak>
excellent ! now all you need is a few pretty girls ;-)
<wpwrak>
looks quite good. the chip takes care of a lot of little issues. pity that the LDO is extremely weak, only 20 mA
<wpwrak>
(bq) and it also passes the digi-key test ;-)
<wpwrak>
(bq price) not too bad. it doesn't need external FETs, takes care of USB current limiting, and even separates battery from output. do you need adapter and USB power ?
<kristianpaul>
hmm
<kristianpaul>
Is not that SIE current missing feature?
<kristianpaul>
(do you need adapter and USB power ?)
<andres-calderon>
kristianpaul: please see the TI power range for the XC6SLX45 FPGA
<kristianpaul>
ok
<kristianpaul>
sorry i'm not aware of that values, but i agree with wpwrak it is kind of crazy
<andres-calderon>
wpwrak: i like the LM3658 option.
<wpwrak>
LM3658 only supplies 1 A :-(
<andres-calderon>
Power Requirements  this is one of the dark sides of FPGAs
<wpwrak>
is current consumption also so high in real life ? or are these just extreme value, e.g., if all cells are switching at the maximum clock speed ?
<andres-calderon>
I have no real numbers ... estimate the consumption of the FPGA is a very difficult task
<andres-calderon>
3-A, 3.3/5-V Input Adjustable Switching Regulator with Auto-Track Sequencing
<andres-calderon>
3A
<andres-calderon>
!!
<wpwrak>
quietly buries usb power
<lekernel>
FPGA is not the only thing on 2.5V
<wpwrak>
lekernel: what real power consumptions have you measured on MM1 ? assuming no overly drainy peripherals
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: there's that USB host. that could also suck 0.5 A if you let it
<lekernel>
with current bitstream/software the complete board draws less than 5W
<wpwrak>
okay .. 1 A@5 V then ...
<wpwrak>
lekernel: does it ever drop below, say, 2 W, while doing something useful (e.g., vi ;-) ? e.g., would it even make sense to consider a scenario with only USB power ? (for operation. may still make sense for charging and duty cycle < 100%)
<lekernel>
I don't know
<lekernel>
I haven't tried to optimize power at all, power doesn't matter for this design
<andres-calderon>
We can forget  operation based on single USB port (dual port neither)
<andres-calderon>
wpwrak: For these power optimization of FPGA cores is that I had to put the AVR in the current design (seemed like a good idea  use the power metering  at different level).
<wpwrak>
lekernel: sure, MM1 has other things to do :)
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: thinking about the battery ... what characteristics do you have in mind ? e.g., how long should xue be aboe to run continuously on battery alone ?
<[Jc]>
Hi , i try to reflash the nanote whith the reflash_ben.sh but i have nothing after "try fetching .ubi.bz2 rootfs....
<[Jc]>
can you help me ?
<[Jc]>
strange, the flash is ok but very slow
<kristianpaul>
[Jc]: are you flahing now?
<kristianpaul>
Well that take some time, yes flash is kinf slow
<kristianpaul>
kind*
<kristianpaul>
I may think is faster if is done from uSD-like memories
<wolfspraul>
we need to purge 'SD' (as in Secure Digital) everywhere
<wolfspraul>
I see 'microSD' popping up all over the place
<wolfspraul>
bad
<wpwrak>
what shall we call it ?
<wolfspraul>
flash memory card?
<wolfspraul>
we should also stay away from 'SDIO'
<wpwrak>
FMC - too general
<wolfspraul>
afaik the most we can go is microSD-like
<wpwrak>
maybe micro5D ? ;-)
<wolfspraul>
although that is suspicious lawyer-speak :-)
<wolfspraul>
hah
<wolfspraul>
I like micro5D
<wolfspraul>
you are almost Chinese now, Werner...
<wpwrak>
haha ;-)
<wolfspraul>
but seriously, the SD needs to go
<wolfspraul>
for our own good, and the good of copyleft hardware and people who want to manufacture and sell devices
<wolfspraul>
it's a trademark, we have no rights to it
<wpwrak>
we need to name the thing somehow. so, what shall it be ?
<wpwrak>
MicroFlash ? :)
<wpwrak>
uSD = SmallMicroFlash (SMF), with apologies to "Prince" :)
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
as usual there are patents, copyright, trademark law
<wpwrak>
SDIO -> MFIO
<wolfspraul>
copyright we should be OK, because we use the Linux kernel and if there is any problem then others have dealt with it before
<wolfspraul>
I think there was legal action over this years ago
<wolfspraul>
patents are always nasty, but I doubt the SD-3C would directly use them, or whether we would actually infringe on any patent
<wolfspraul>
that leaves the trademark
<wpwrak>
i wonder what the status of the SD-card physical shape is
<wpwrak>
so, how to avoid the trademark ? 5D ? invent some name ? explain each time with a long sentence ?
<kristianpaul>
MFIO?
<wolfspraul>
well we need to start, I feel we don't pay attention to this and it will get nasty later
<kristianpaul>
uSD-like is ok?
<wolfspraul>
(me included)
<wolfspraul>
the -like thing is a legal safeguard, afaik
<kristianpaul>
phew
<wolfspraul>
I would prefer to only use it on the side though, to explain what the 'flash memory card' is
<wolfspraul>
like flash memory card (*)
<wolfspraul>
and then (*) micro-SD like flash card
<wolfspraul>
somewhere far away :-)
<wpwrak>
how do we reference it contexts that are not "official documents" ? irc, mailing list, etc.
<wpwrak>
s/it/it in/
<kristianpaul>
as i understand micro is okay but not the "ese de", right?
<wpwrak>
the channel could use an editbot :)
<kristianpaul>
hehe
<wolfspraul>
the SD is the core trademark, I think
<wolfspraul>
Secure Digital
<wolfspraul>
*SD and SD*
<wpwrak>
uEseDe ;-)
<kristianpaul>
jeje
<wpwrak>
LibreDigital ;-)
<wolfspraul>
well, my first concern is that the hardware we are making is clean
<wolfspraul>
because it should be the basis for 'copylefting' by others, right?
<wolfspraul>
I mean I can pay 4000 USD
<kristianpaul>
you should :)
<kristianpaul>
should not***
<wpwrak>
or we write it like we spell it. ED ;-)
<wolfspraul>
but I just create a 4000 USD copy barrier, at least for people who want to be legal
<wpwrak>
uED, EDIO, etc.
<wolfspraul>
plus 1000-2000 / year I think
<kristianpaul>
i like that
<wpwrak>
or the same with LD. uLD, LDIO, etc.
<kristianpaul>
bot will be funny
<wolfspraul>
so I want to increase the copyleftedness by making hardware that is as least likely to step onto the SD trademarks, copyrights, patents, as possible
<kristianpaul>
s/n/N pops every where
<wolfspraul>
I mean right now we have 'microSD' right in the tooling of the Ben :-)
<wolfspraul>
can't get any worse
<wolfspraul>
that all needs to go
<wpwrak>
Libre Small Digital, LSD :)
<wolfspraul>
libre flash?
<kristianpaul>
hehe
<kristianpaul>
dont abouse libre word i think, flash is not libre at all (copyleft hw way)
<wolfspraul>
also for Milkymist One microSD is popping up everywhere
<wolfspraul>
ok fair enough
<kristianpaul>
hmm true
<wolfspraul>
Sebastien proposed flash memory card
<wpwrak>
let them try to argue that LSD is likely to be mistaken for SD in court ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I like it
<wolfspraul>
I would write it out each time.
<wolfspraul>
no FMC
<wolfspraul>
we can write flash memory card (*)
<kristianpaul>
i prefer flash memory card, not resumed
<wolfspraul>
and then (*) microSD-like flash memory card
<kristianpaul>
hell ;)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: you're ignoring day to day communication. nobody will write a long name all the time
<wolfspraul>
or leave out the (*) alltogether
<wolfspraul>
actually I don't think it's that important
<wolfspraul>
there are way too many of these cards
<wolfspraul>
(for regular people)
<wolfspraul>
rs-mmc, miniSD, microSD, full size, etc.
<wolfspraul>
anyway, I just wanted to post a reminder
<wolfspraul>
'SD' is a trademark, using it devalues our copyleft stuff
<wpwrak>
QIC - Qi Card :)
<wolfspraul>
it creates problems
<wolfspraul>
sooner or later
<wolfspraul>
the SD people will not release their trademark into the public domain, etc.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: yes, you've repeated that SD is a problem about 50 times by now. i still get it ;-)
<wolfspraul>
we cannot assume those things to happen
<wolfspraul>
this will go on... SD to the moon! :-)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: for the archives :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: but you're dodging the question of a practical alternative :)
<wolfspraul>
flash memory card
<wolfspraul>
which you already said you don't like...
<kristianpaul>
external memory
<kristianpaul>
memory
<wpwrak>
sure, in marketing material and such, you can write Flash Memory Card (*) Mycro-SD-alike
<wolfspraul>
the first step is raising awareness that SD is a trademark we haven't licensed and shouldn't use
<wpwrak>
that alone is not enough
<wpwrak>
we still need to call it something
<wpwrak>
and we don't want people to fall back to "Flash" or "Card"
<wolfspraul>
well there are several use cases. microSD cards (as in the mechanical size), SDIO protocol, others?
<wpwrak>
which is what will happen if you offer only an unwieldy name
<wpwrak>
so 1) SD is bad. avoid it. agreed.
<wolfspraul>
I do something practical, I start ripping out *SD* when I see it :-)
<wpwrak>
2) official documents, press statements, case engraving, whatever, can use something nice and complicated. your choice. fine with that.
<wpwrak>
3) what do we use for other communication ?
<wpwrak>
so, remove the hardware ?
<wpwrak>
then we don't need to name it :)
<wpwrak>
/nick Salomon
<wpwrak>
Small Removable Card ? SRC ?
<wolfspraul>
are you trying to find a name for the microSD mechanical shape?
<wolfspraul>
the connector/height? (to the outside we are going pretty wild anyway... :-))
<wpwrak>
for shape, the item itself, the connectors, etc.
<wpwrak>
protocol, too.
<wolfspraul>
if your new names are not clear in meaning, people will fall back to the old ones similar to how you think they will do it with my 'flash memory card'
<wpwrak>
well, we can probably talk about the SDIO protocol and so on and implicitly refer to out slot
<wpwrak>
u5D then ;-) it's not our fault that people mistype the acronym of ultrasmall 5 dimensions all the time :)Â Â (5D: 1) mechanical, 2) industry standard memory, 3) industry standard I/O, 4) GPIOs, 5) power)
<kristianpaul>
wow
<wpwrak>
or scrap mechanical and make it 1) clock
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
if I compare with the headset connectors, we use 2.5mm, 3.5mm
<wolfspraul>
maybe we say 2-pin, 3-pin, TRS, TRRS
<wpwrak>
5D FAQ: Q: Is u5D the same as uSD. A: No. u5D is a device and interface format specified [...bla...]. The SD Association has until date not sought certification of their product as u5D compatible.
<wolfspraul>
yes but if we do this the u5D thing will be seriously confusing
<wpwrak>
8card :)
<kristianpaul>
SPI Card
<kristianpaul>
nah
<wolfspraul>
8x8 flash memory card?
<wpwrak>
ED - External Device. uED, EDIO, ... :)
<wpwrak>
what
<wolfspraul>
8 pin, 8 mm (not exactly, but for the sake of 8x8)
<wpwrak>
ah :)
<wpwrak>
11 x 15 mm :)
<wolfspraul>
I am comparing with some other connectors
<wolfspraul>
normally people 'describe' them
<wpwrak>
card165
<wolfspraul>
like the 2.5mm headset thing
<wpwrak>
(11*15 = 165)
<wolfspraul>
then of course often there is a trademark involved
<wolfspraul>
MIDI, DMX
<kristianpaul>
those too?
<wpwrak>
MIDI too ? shit
<wolfspraul>
don't know
<wolfspraul>
relax guys
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
hey Werner, let's make a fped view of the connector
<wolfspraul>
then the fped text is the name of the connector
<wpwrak>
well, i've heard guns are cheap around here. so let the trademark/patent holder come ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I'm looking at a full-size SD card right now and I notice that the right-most pin (looking from the bottom) seems to be split into 2?
<wolfspraul>
so that makes it 9 pins
<wolfspraul>
it looks like this is some backward-compatibility thing, because the split is done in such a way that it would also fit a connector that had only 8 pins on the other side
<wpwrak>
i think it's for card insertion detection
<wolfspraul>
maybe we should move towards mechanical measurements in general?
<wolfspraul>
as an idea... (don't poke holes into it right away, Werner...)
<wolfspraul>
mechanical and math are patent and trademark free
<wolfspraul>
we are still free to count
<wolfspraul>
and measure
<wpwrak>
or just number them ? card #1 :)
<wpwrak>
(math) hmm. mp3 algorithm ? :)
<wolfspraul>
for example the trs trrs are called like that as 'tip ring sleeve'
<wolfspraul>
I like that
<wolfspraul>
no way this will ever be claimed by anybody
<wolfspraul>
trrs = tip ring ring sleeve
<wolfspraul>
just describe the looks/shape of the connector
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: no not the algorithm is patented, but the implementation :-) still a difference...
<wolfspraul>
guys until I hear protests, I will try 8x8 fmc
<wolfspraul>
maybe someone can find something nice and descriptive along the lines of trs?
<wolfspraul>
just use plain language, plain words, measurements/counts, etc.
<wpwrak>
8x8 does not reflect real dimensions
<wolfspraul>
8 pins, 8 millimeters
<wpwrak>
165 ? for the 165 square-millimeters a rectangular bounding box would cover ?
<wpwrak>
where are the 8 millimeters ?
<wolfspraul>
roughly :-)
<wolfspraul>
because 8x8 is easy to remember
<wpwrak>
the card is 11x15 mm
<wolfspraul>
the connector at the top is narrower
<wpwrak>
sure. but then it's no longer a physical measurement
<wolfspraul>
the pins are pretty much exactly 8mm wide
<wolfspraul>
although the pitch is not exactly 1mm
<wpwrak>
9.6 mm
<wpwrak>
pitch is 1.1 mm
<wpwrak>
just look at the fped file. it's all in there :)
<wolfspraul>
that's for the whole front, including left and right margin
<wpwrak>
(with fped - so you can see the dimensions)
<wolfspraul>
I'm not saying 8x8 fmc is perfect
<wolfspraul>
I'm also fine with 8x10, it's equally wrong/confusing I think
<wolfspraul>
but my idea was something measured, or described
<wolfspraul>
like trs
<wolfspraul>
not a play like u5D
<wolfspraul>
irony or humor doesn't work in such cases
<wolfspraul>
someone else will have the last laugh
<wpwrak>
8x10 is much better. 9.6 rounded :)
<wolfspraul>
8x10 fmc
<wpwrak>
just "card" ?
<wolfspraul>
well the 'x' makes it look like a 2D measurement
<wolfspraul>
but one is number of pins, the other is mm
<wolfspraul>
8p10mm, argh
<wpwrak>
maybe 8/10 or 8:10
<wolfspraul>
I like the : better
<wolfspraul>
8:10 flash card
<wpwrak>
card
<wpwrak>
doesn't have to be flash
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
true
<kristianpaul>
4bit card
<wpwrak>
is Flash trademarked ? :)
<kristianpaul>
hege
<wolfspraul>
I don't think so
<kristianpaul>
he*
<wpwrak>
F-card :)
<wolfspraul>
that's suspicious
<wpwrak>
especially when it doens't work :)
<wolfspraul>
8:10 card
<wolfspraul>
maybe 8:10 card holder
<wolfspraul>
yes I think that's nice
<wolfspraul>
I can live with that
<wpwrak>
now, the protocol ? we have SD and SDIO to rename.
<wolfspraul>
8:10 is pretty cool, maybe we can find something better even so it still works when the next nanoSD is introduced...
<wpwrak>
it would then be 8:6 or such
<wolfspraul>
but number of pins is quite specific, and rounded mm at the front too
<wolfspraul>
unless they introduce a round one
<wpwrak>
specific is good in this case
<wpwrak>
after all, this should be an alias for uSD
<wpwrak>
full-siz SD would be 9:24
<wolfspraul>
ok
<wolfspraul>
man I hope Sebastien doesn't kill us over this
<wolfspraul>
SD and SDIO
<wolfspraul>
when do we use this?
<wpwrak>
miniSD something like 11:19
<wolfspraul>
I'm not using it, I think
<wolfspraul>
are the Linux kernel sourcing talking about SDIO actually?
<wolfspraul>
sources
<wpwrak>
when talking about the protocol
<wpwrak>
of course they do
<wpwrak>
perhaps we can use SD/SDIO when talking about the protocol. after all, we're not identifying the card per se
<kristianpaul>
trade mark !
<kristianpaul>
no matter card is there i guess
<wolfspraul>
also I don't think this will show up anywhere in or on the product, or marketing
<kristianpaul>
ah ok
<wpwrak>
it should appear on some occasions in official documentation, to clarify that the interface is IO-capable
<wpwrak>
but maybe it's possible to treat this separate from technical discussion
<wolfspraul>
when I think about Milkymist One, I cannot imagine SD or SDIO to show up anywhere
<wolfspraul>
why should it?
<wolfspraul>
if the specs list the connector as '8:10 card holder' then that's it
<wolfspraul>
of course nobody will know what a 8:10 card holder is
<wolfspraul>
so we may need a (*) microSD-like somewhere
<wolfspraul>
maybe even (*) 8 pins : 10 mm connector, microSD-like
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
MM1: dunno. depends on the intended role for the 8:10 card
<wpwrak>
but think of a general-purpose device like the ben. there you want to know whether it can talk to SDIO peripherals
<wolfspraul>
on m1, it cannot find nice cards like ben-wpan, because it's in the middle of the board and no space, and lying flat on the pcb as well
<wpwrak>
of course, you can write something like "for memory and I/O cards"
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
for this to have any practical effect, you would have to list the tested and supported cards anyway
<wolfspraul>
one by one, with brand, model, etc.
<wpwrak>
sure. it's a first overview. what you print on the box.
<wolfspraul>
(I'm talking about 'practical effect' for a normal end user)
<wpwrak>
maybe you already know whether card X is linux-friendly or not
<kristianpaul>
is MMC trademarktoo?
<wolfspraul>
there is no way someone will buy 2 products because both say 'SDIO' and he thinks they should work together
<wpwrak>
i wouldn't be so sure ;-)
<wolfspraul>
no way
<wolfspraul>
maybe if the sales rep says they will work
<wolfspraul>
but definitely not based on seeing the same trademark
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: I think mmc, if even a trademark, is not owned/managed by the SD-3C
<wpwrak>
sometimes you have to rely on guesses. you go to the shop with a list of possible devices. they have none of these but something else. do you want to return home and do more research or buy the damn thing for USD 10 and hope for the best ?
<wolfspraul>
just looking at uspto.gov
<wolfspraul>
so many mmc
<wolfspraul>
one is a 'foldable pet ramp'
<wpwrak>
there's also quite a lot of people who simply don't know how to find out beforehand about such problems. to them, it may just be technology that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. at some point in time, you may also reach this part of the market ;-)
<wolfspraul>
mmc mobile...
<wpwrak>
i mean, even technically competent people would, for example, have a hard time buying a home theatre where all the elements work properly for HD with all the copy-protection and such :)
<wolfspraul>
registered by the multimedia card association, but now owned by jedec solid state technology association
<wolfspra1l>
got disconnected, did it get through?
<wpwrak>
mmc -> jedec, aye
<wolfspra1l>
ok I just added that we also need to look at trademarks case by case
<wolfspra1l>
if one is licensed in terms that are acceptable, then using it may be better for everybody
<wolfspra1l>
like Linux
<wolfspra1l>
so I don't know about MMC
<wolfspra1l>
but I am pretty sure about *SD*
<wolfspra1l>
that one needs to go, or sooner or later everybody who manufactures 'SD host devices' will have to stay away from large markets like the US, or pay 4000 USD + 2000 USD/yr
<wolfspra1l>
I don't know about MIDI, DMX, and many others
<wolfspra1l>
case by case, our resources are limited and opportunity costs are high...
<wolfspra1l>
so we got a solution for now?
<wolfspra1l>
the card is: 8:10 card
<wolfspra1l>
the protocol is: memory and I/O
<wpwrak>
considering how profitable the drug business is, perhaps making the device illegal in the US wouldn't be such a bad idea ;-)
<wolfspra1l>
don't you think that 8:10 flash card is better?
<wolfspra1l>
hmm, maybe not
<wolfspra1l>
it's just a desperate attempt to ring a bell :-)
<wpwrak>
(protocol) i'd rename only in "marketing" communication. for descriptive use in technical communication, we ought to be safe.
<wpwrak>
e.g., "implement the SDIO protocol". or "the SDIO protocol [says this or that]"
<wolfspra1l>
should be OK, and this shouldn't make it through to the product or marketing material anyway
<wpwrak>
yup
<wolfspra1l>
phew
<wolfspra1l>
done
<wolfspra1l>
thanks!!!
<wpwrak>
hmm ......... they also use the x:y format for bible references ... googling it, there's a nice one: http://bible.cc/luke/8-10.htm
<wpwrak>
alludes to the obscurity we're after ;-)
<wolfspra1l>
kristianpaul: for trademarks, you can normally use a quick search at uspto.gov
<wolfspra1l>
in technology, the US is basically the gold standard, or at least it is what we are talking about here
<kristianpaul>
wolfspra1l: looking now, good to know :)
<wolfspra1l>
if someone registers a trademark in Kazachstan, and rips off some importers, ok that's a separate issue
<wolfspra1l>
it's a big world
<wpwrak>
("gold" standard) high time for china to take over :)
<wolfspra1l>
well yeah that will be a big mess
<wolfspra1l>
it's probably already happening
<wolfspra1l>
kristianpaul: also, for a trademark to be enforced, it doesn't necessarily need to be registered
<kristianpaul>
(take over) dont do it already?
<wolfspra1l>
sometimes you see this (tm) and (r)
<kristianpaul>
yes
<wolfspra1l>
(tm) is a unregistered trademark
<wpwrak>
now all we need is to make patent production and trafficking a capital offense and the world will be a much better place :)
<wolfspra1l>
in the end any company can bring forward a trademark infringement claim, at any time, and for any reason
<wolfspra1l>
the question is whether it can stand in court
<wolfspra1l>
so it's not as easy as looking in uspto.gov and then you know what's going on
<wolfspra1l>
and some big corps are known to trample over this system anyway
<wolfspra1l>
they just don't care
<wolfspra1l>
so even if you have a trademark registered for x years, if you are in the way they will attack you
<wolfspra1l>
and you better give in to their demands, whatever it is :-)
<kristianpaul>
so fair ;^)
<wolfspra1l>
so similar to patents, I approach this in a case by case style
<wolfspra1l>
watch out for aggressive people, stay away from them
<wolfspra1l>
don't pay a ransom, because then others will have to pay too in the future
<wolfspra1l>
I will probably stop registering trademarks, and use unregistered instead
<wolfspra1l>
just (tm)
<wolfspra1l>
like NanoNote, Milkymist
<wolfspra1l>
the registration has questionable value anyway, in my practical experience
<wolfspra1l>
you are just feeding lawyers, parasites
<wolfspra1l>
in the end they come trample over you anyway, so you better hold fire and still have a few bucks when they come attack :-)
<wolfspra1l>
wpwrak: hey wanna hear a China story?
<wpwrak>
always :)
<wolfspra1l>
no rumors, all first hand
<wolfspra1l>
I walked around many offices of IC design firms in China, and always wondered why I never saw IC design software running on any computer screen...
<wolfspra1l>
(I'm quite observing looking at what is running on screens when I walk around new offices)
<wolfspra1l>
finally I found the answer :-)
<wpwrak>
they don't have licenses ?
<wolfspra1l>
the Chinese government has setup special small companies to buy 1 license of expensive US software, install it all properly etc.
<wolfspra1l>
oh no
<wolfspra1l>
much smarter
<wpwrak>
and only run the stuff when there are no visitors
<wolfspra1l>
and then they use whatever they can to 'share' this
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wolfspra1l>
people can go 'visit' there
<wolfspra1l>
vpn
<wolfspra1l>
vnc
<wolfspra1l>
everything
<wpwrak>
*grin*
<wolfspra1l>
finally a government that truly helps its people, no?
<kristianpaul>
sharing  is good ! :)
<wolfspra1l>
they call this 'IC center' etc.
<wolfspra1l>
a center it is, indeed :-)
<wpwrak>
;-))
<kristianpaul>
bus is it time shared?
<wolfspra1l>
who knows, whatever works
<wpwrak>
then there must also be a lot of leakage between companies - someone forgetting files, etc. ;-)
<wpwrak>
all very good, of course. more sharing :)
<wolfspra1l>
probably, but it's a lot of copy/paste anyway
<wolfspra1l>
but this is a true story, organized by the Chinese government
<wpwrak>
.cn - copy nation :)
<wolfspra1l>
nice service
<kristianpaul>
indeed
<wpwrak>
excellent service :)
<wpwrak>
of course, not so good from the perspective of furthering freedom. they should give the money they save to people who develop free alternatives :)
<wolfspra1l>
watch out they have their own definition of freedom
<kristianpaul>
I always want to ask that, how is "free alternives" fit to china rules?
<kristianpaul>
ah that explain better ( own definition of freedom)
<wolfspra1l>
sure not at all
<wolfspra1l>
if anything 'free' means under 100% CHinese govt control
<wolfspra1l>
if only 99% control, then not entirely free yet
<wolfspra1l>
but yes, I'm sure they work on those 'free alternatives' elsewhere
<kristianpaul>
Are you aware of Lemote company and chinese gov?
<wolfspra1l>
what do you mean with aware?
<wolfspra1l>
I've heard of Lemote
<kristianpaul>
s/aware/what do you know
<wolfspra1l>
nothing
<kristianpaul>
Is Ingenic some how linked/parner with china gov?
<kristianpaul>
well i dont know if parner is a right word there
<wolfspra1l>
China is a dictatorship. every chinese company, everything located on chinese soil is under 100% control of the Chinese government.
<wolfspra1l>
one phone call is enough :-)
<kristianpaul>
i see
<wolfspra1l>
the CEO of any Chinese company can be called to show up for a 'government conference' within hours
<wolfspra1l>
and all of them will go
<kristianpaul>
That includes Sharism? :)
<wolfspra1l>
I'm not making this up, this is how it is.
<wolfspra1l>
I would never ever register a company in mainland China.
<kristianpaul>
Tw?
<wolfspra1l>
Sharism Ltd. is registered in Hong Kong, which still benefits from British traditions.
<kristianpaul>
ah ok
<wolfspra1l>
for the next 20-30 years we should be safe there
<kristianpaul>
good :)
<wolfspra1l>
although they are slowly trying to undermine it
<wolfspra1l>
I made the mistake of registering some .cn domains, I am giving them up now
<wolfspra1l>
oh btw, I think it's crazy that Mozilla and others install SSl root certificates controlled by the Chinese government
<kristianpaul>
oh
<wolfspra1l>
that gives them a chance to run nice man-in-the-middle attacks without you ever noticing
<wolfspra1l>
and you bet they already work on this, have the capability, and use it when appropriate
<kristianpaul>
next year will be the year to dont trust SSL root ceriticates
<wolfspra1l>
100% guaranteed
<kristianpaul>
eff.org/observatory
<wolfspra1l>
seriously, this is serious stuff
<wolfspra1l>
those root certificates need to be removed asap
<kristianpaul>
That root-trust is scary
<wpwrak>
the whole concept is broken
<wolfspra1l>
wpwrak: yeah but come on. a root certificate from the chinese government, preinstalled in the whole western world. hello???
<wolfspra1l>
one phone call
<wolfspra1l>
when they call, the caller ID is 00000000
<wolfspra1l>
no name, just when and where to go
<wpwrak>
(0000000) like telemarketing :)
<wolfspra1l>
kristianpaul: .tw is cool, of course.
<kristianpaul>
argg what i was thinking my data bus is just 8 bits :/
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: simpler :)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: where are you actually stuck ? a good while ago, it looked as if you had pretty much everything in place
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: i'm implementing what we talked yday
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: are you cooking up some fancy handshake protocol ?
<kristianpaul>
not fancy
<kristianpaul>
nah
<kristianpaul>
as simple as i can make it
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: should be quite straightforward. particularly if you just make an 8 bit shifter
<kristianpaul>
for now just a 8 bit shifter, plus a 4 bit counter in order tow adress a sram arragement (buffer)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: 1) extend the old 4 bit to 8 bit. 2) divide SYNC by two and output it
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: ah, you're adding a buffer. i see.
<kristianpaul>
i MUST, is no somethin i wish
<kristianpaul>
but SIE desing push me to do it that way
<wpwrak>
how come ?
<kristianpaul>
was something i dint realize until i crasshed CPU, (shared bus with other memories)
<kristianpaul>
JZ4725 processor has a peripheral in charge of controlling extern memories, this controller allows to handle static, NOR, NAND and SDRAM memories. SIE uses the CS2 signal which belongs to the second pool of static memory and is activated (low active) whenever an address in between 0x1400|0000 to 0x17FF|FFFF is accessed. Next picture shows reading and writing cycles for this processor.
<wpwrak>
hmm. are you saying that you don't have 9-10 dedicated I/Os between FGPA and CPU ?
<kristianpaul>
sadly no :'(
<kristianpaul>
really i tought i had
<kristianpaul>
i just (as always) ignore some documetation and discover it by trial/error
<wpwrak>
interesting. do you have DMA handshake signals ?
<kristianpaul>
i'm not really aware of DMA handshake now, i must read first a bit more of this topic
<kristianpaul>
s/of/off
<wpwrak>
may be easier to go directly to DMA if you don't have a nice and simple interface
<wpwrak>
you need a request line. maybe also the acknowledgement line. documentation seems a bit spotty.
<kristianpaul>
If i see this get messy (i donk think, just in case) i 'll end wiring the spi-to-parallel module to the SDIO of my ben
<wpwrak>
if the FPGA appears like a memory device, you'd implement your 8 bit register just there and then request one DMA cycle. if this is handled quickly enough, you win :)
<wpwrak>
;-))
<kristianpaul>
ah
<kristianpaul>
well i already have that
<wpwrak>
in any case, DMA is what you want. anything else is still some sort of polling and probably will be messy
<kristianpaul>
so i'mm missing DMA
<wpwrak>
let's see what they write about dma ...
<kristianpaul>
hmm seems is worth read more about DMA
<wpwrak>
gz4725_ds .. 3.9.3. ah, that helps .. NOT :)
<kristianpaul>
in SIE fpga have only I/O to real world afaik :/
<wpwrak>
maybe you can loop something back :)
<kristianpaul>
loop?
<GWEARI>
hey
<kristianpaul>
Hi
<GWEARI>
i have a simple but kinda tricky question
<kristianpaul>
Drop it :)
<GWEARI>
my old computer had a folder with over 3000 picture i took, its stuck in an endless cycle when trying to boot. i was able to install my old computers internal HD in another one, the problem is that the folder i had made was no longer in the desktop. yet it kept my other backed up cell phone pics in the My Pictures area (i had put that folder there.. is there any way to retrieve the folder i had created on the desktop?
<wpwrak>
*hmm* there's no external DMA ?!?
<GWEARI>
DMA?
<wpwrak>
amazing. seems they really left it out.
<wpwrak>
GWEARI: on the XBurst JZ4740/20 and similar
<kristianpaul>
poll poll poll
<kristianpaul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
suck suck suck :-(
<wpwrak>
well, you could send stuff over the UART ;-) that's about the only interface that's slave-capable. okay, and USB.
<kristianpaul>
i was thinking ignore xburst-shared-bus and wire to SDIO
<kristianpaul>
wich is actually IO
<kristianpaul>
ahh
<wpwrak>
plan B: maybe the bus is multi-master-capable, so the FPGA could become bus master
<kristianpaul>
argg thats is just 2bit, i touch that before
<kristianpaul>
tought*
<kristianpaul>
bus i dont know, i need dig more on it
<wpwrak>
sdio is 4 bits
<kristianpaul>
not in SIE ;-)
<kristianpaul>
let me confirm (kicad)
<kristianpaul>
ah yes
<kristianpaul>
you right
<kristianpaul>
hmm i'm confused but Carlos send a patch for a 2 bit thing on SIE, maybe i'm wrong
<wpwrak>
phew :)
<kristianpaul>
ah zoom tricky me
<wpwrak>
bus probably isn't master-capable. sdio would be a possibility. but the protocol is a little tricky
<GWEARI>
r u still referring to my question or something else