<wpwrak>
hmm, didn't really pay attention to < vs. > 20
<wpwrak>
(talk link) yeah, seems to take a while to do the censorship ;-)
<wpwrak>
(new things learned) hmm, one thing. do you know the "GPLv2 death penalty" ?
<wolfspraul>
never heard about that
<kristianpaul>
sort of ritual from fsf guys? :)
<wpwrak>
close ;-)
<wpwrak>
it's basically that, if you violate the GPL, you lose the right to use the code under that license, and that you have to return to compliance AND get re-licensed by each author/rights holder individually to be allowed to use the code under the license again
<wpwrak>
GPLv3 relaxes that to simply having to return to compliance
<wpwrak>
it's an interesting technicality
<wolfspraul>
sounds good that they removed that
<wpwrak>
yeah. it's quite nasty :)
<wolfspraul>
it may also affect enforcability
<wpwrak>
not that i'd really expect someone to try to enforce it, but ...
<wolfspraul>
you shouldn't try to link too many things together, like punishment chains etc. leave that to the legal system case by case, people can make their arguments anyway
<wolfspraul>
otherwise you risk that your entire thing becomes unenforcable because of some higher legal concept like practicality or what not
<wolfspraul>
so a simple "back to compliance" is much better
<wolfspraul>
what this means can then be determined in each case
<wpwrak>
well, there's always the clause that if part is not enforceable, the rest still prevails
<wolfspraul>
that's just my opinion of course
<wpwrak>
but yes, "back to compliance" makes a lot more sense. having to find all the rights holders would be quite impossible in many cases
<wpwrak>
perhaps they put it in such that you can't hurriedly return back into compliance once a lot of money has been spent on legal action. i wonder how they solved that.
<wolfspraul>
what other projects or talks at fisl did you find most interesting?
<wpwrak>
of course, some of the violators are stubborn enough that they see things through to the bit end no matter how many chances for backing off they are given :)
<wpwrak>
i didn't go to many talks. i listened to the one on tor (onion routing for privacy). it's interesting how crazy the powers that be get. and how the cat and mouse game between tor and the censors evolves.
<wpwrak>
but .. not directly applicable to our stuff. well, except for you personally perhaps :)
<wpwrak>
i also had someone with RF experience have a quick look at my atben/atusb boards, and nothing obviously fishy turned up
<wpwrak>
i found a few bugs when trying to show things to people :)
<wolfspraul>
China is big on tor
<wolfspraul>
the powers of darkness
<wolfspraul>
I would stay away from it only because of that, but it's good that they bind some resources of evil
<wpwrak>
ah, and my ubb-vga is more robust than i thought. after days of carrying it around without any protection, it still worked. and produced very nice colors on two occasion - nicer than that i had seen on my test devices
<wpwrak>
(tor) yeah, it only works if you can hide in the crowd
<wolfspraul>
we have to use more steganography, randomization, etc.
<wolfspraul>
there are so many attack vectors, like packet delays and what not
<wolfspraul>
oh well :-)
<wpwrak>
they now also have tor briges that don't show up in the list of nodes
<wpwrak>
and they have tor mail services, so that you can get it via, say, google mail. and don't need to connect to tor itself
<wpwrak>
now sure how much that matters in practice, though. after all, you still need to find the explanation of all this :)
<wpwrak>
may be easier to just hand out uSD cards. the perfect medium for covert operations :)
<wpwrak>
ah, M1 doesn't include a mouse, right ? can it actually be used without one ?
<wpwrak>
jon talked with mozilla about possible common interests. he's thinking of trying to convince them that they need a hardware platform they can control.
<wpwrak>
we also talked to some google folks. alas, not the ones with their hand on the money. jon will follow up on that in SFO.
<kristianpaul>
oh, tor mail, thats new for me
<wpwrak>
reaction to the M1 demos (in the talk) was very good. better than i expected - they really captivated the audience. unfortunately, with the update problems, we didn't have time to show it off to a larger audience in the exposition area.
<wpwrak>
we didn't do the L19 rework. didn't want to tempt fate ;-) the camera didn't cause problems
<wolfspraul>
we do not include a mouse
<wolfspraul>
for two reasons: 1) I have never seen a mouse that would not work (but with keyboards there are many that won't work, such as most/all from Apple)
<wolfspraul>
2) the GUI either is already 100% controllable from keyboard, or almost there
<wpwrak>
2) is good. 1) alone would still mean that your out of the box experience may be limited.
<wolfspraul>
my biggest worry for including a mouse is that we have so many accessories already, it becomes like a bag of assorted electronics
<wolfspraul>
it's not so much the price, but also the size and weight of a mouse that turns me off
<wpwrak>
(keyboard) also jon had some no name keyboard he said didn't work
<wolfspraul>
oh sure
<wolfspraul>
it took me 4 keyboards until I finally found one that works
<wolfspraul>
that's when I decided that we had to include one :-)
<wpwrak>
(too many accessories) yeah, also not exactly fun for the sourcing side
<wolfspraul>
lots of work, yes, but we are mostly done with it
<wolfspraul>
so the mouse, yes, it's still in the air
<wpwrak>
(mice that work) you can add my little travel mouse from kensington :)
<wolfspraul>
when comparing silicone keyboards, we had one with an integrated mouse
<wolfspraul>
but, as always, there were problems
<wolfspraul>
first the current software would not support mouse + keyboard as 2 endpoints on the same usb port
<roh>
heh. integrated mouse means hub doesnt it?
<wpwrak>
do we know at what layer are the problems with the keyboards ?
<roh>
wpwrak: mm1 doesnt support stuff behind usb hubs afaik
<wpwrak>
roh: of course :)
<wolfspraul>
and second, even more important, the mouse on that silicone keyboard was very imprecise
<wolfspraul>
it was just nearly impossible to position it over a button
<wolfspraul>
it would always jump too far etc.
<wolfspraul>
so that would have meant even more software work
<wolfspraul>
roh: no, that one implements 2 endpoints
<wpwrak>
better not to ship with crap then
<wolfspraul>
or 2 'interfaces' something like that
<wolfspraul>
definitely no hub
<wolfspraul>
it would be relatively easy to support, but then we still would have precision problems
<wolfspraul>
yes correct
<roh>
weird. but yes.
<wolfspraul>
Apple keyboards include a hub, always I believe
<wolfspraul>
that's why none of them work on m1 right now
<wpwrak>
(no hub) hmm. need to check the spec on whether that's allowed. not that it wouldn't make perfect sense ...
<wolfspraul>
definitely allowed
<wolfspraul>
but anyway, that's the mouse story so far
<wolfspraul>
I wish that silicone keyboard would have had a better precision mouse
<wpwrak>
i think the entire USB trouble just has one solution: get Linux to work and move everything that need RT into some little RT bubble under linux
<wolfspraul>
then I would have taken that (and added support for the 2 endpoints/interfaces, which looked like not to be that hard)
<wolfspraul>
so yeah, we need to make sure that keyboard only is intuitive, I haven't tested it yet
<wolfspraul>
the precision problems may be compensated in software as well, I would think. but it's more work...
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: RT bubble sounds nice :)
<wpwrak>
the gui seems a bit overloaded. but again, that's comfortably a v2 problem to address
<wolfspraul>
it just needs to move more slowly, and then accelerate when pressed longer
<kristianpaul>
and is not usb, also memcard, i confess i miss linux a bit now :)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: i think even lekernel would now consider linux to be the lesser evil than having to port a gazillion of usb drivers :)
<kristianpaul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
lekernel will think that if someone other than him ports/improves Linux, or adds a MMU, or ..., that'd be awesome
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: the next step would be to integrate an interface into the M1. e.g., a touch screen lcd.
<kristianpaul>
on top ! yes
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (port linux) yeah. i wonder what's taking the guys so long. it can't be *that* hard.
<wolfspraul>
Linux is booting
<wolfspraul>
nommu version
<wolfspraul>
but I don't think all the different peripherals are supported, and it seems work on the port has stopped in March
<roh>
yeah. nommu is quite a big turnoff for many people
<wpwrak>
nommu is suckish
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: last i heard there were some minor issues with interrupts, you can ask mwalle i think
<wpwrak>
but why not implement a really simple mmu ? one-way TLB. that can't be so hard.
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: ah yes, he didn't like the hierarchy. but i think he and lekernel now agree on an approach
<roh>
wpwrak: btw.. i got some people around working on their own small designs.. currently the i.mx233 looks fancy to us.. because its available in hand-solderable packages and still not be totally outdated when it comes to performance
<wpwrak>
roh: sounds nice
<roh>
also freescale seems nice when it comes to datasheets and the linux ports are maintained by pengutronix :)
<wolfspraul>
sounds like the right approach to think about practical execution first
<roh>
only downside: no eth mac included on the imx233 ... the imx28 or so has one.. but its bga again
<wolfspraul>
but someone has to take it from planning to implementation now
<wolfspraul>
Sebastien will surely merge back any good code that comes his way :-)
<wolfspraul>
for the video synthesizer itself, the mmu is not critical imho
<wpwrak>
4 privilege levels ? who needs that ? :)
<wpwrak>
is anyone porting VAX/VMS ? ;-))
<wpwrak>
(mmu+synth) not for the video synthesis. but if you want to make the synthesizer talk to more things, you need the cornucopia of drivers from linux. and linux is so much happier if it has an MMU :)
<wpwrak>
(mmu arch) quite fancy already. for getting started, you could make something much simpler :)
<wolfspraul>
ok but I want to be as real as possible
<wolfspraul>
I am not working on mmu, i have no experience in Verilog at all, no time to do it. I have no resources to fund someone doing it. For Sebastien it's not high on his priority list at all.
<wolfspraul>
afaik nobody else (for example from the people discussing the design on the list) is currently working on it either
<wolfspraul>
so keep your expectations about a mmu 'arriving from somewhere' very low
<wpwrak>
yeah, yeah, the old "if you want it get done you have to do it yourself" ;-)
<wolfspraul>
it's important that we communicate that rather than speculating whether it would be nice, and leaving out that it is beyond the resources of the project (and priority list) to work on one now
<wolfspraul>
I just think with the most clear assessment you eventually succeed best. rather than implying all these wonderful things will, or may, happen.
<wolfspraul>
m1 has a long list of desirable todos
<wolfspraul>
mmu is one on that long list, somewhere
<wolfspraul>
so I communicate that clearly: m1 has no mmu, don't expect one, we don't need it for the video synthesizer, we can drive the video synthesizer to much higher grounds without one, etc.
<wpwrak>
mmu is a de facto prerequisite for linux; linux is a de facto prerequisite for proper driver support. people will quickly get frustrated with USB host having all sort of weird restrictions.
<wolfspraul>
he :-)
<wpwrak>
so the sooner this gets solved, the better
<wolfspraul>
you are a good candidate for communication effectiveness tests
<wpwrak>
i mean, just think of the horror scenario of someone losing the keyboard ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I never endulge in wishful thinking
<wolfspraul>
I do not see those things on the practical radar
<wolfspraul>
and they are not needed now, imo. at least not for me selling a video synthesizer.
<wpwrak>
(comunication) i hear your "i don't want to think of the problem" ;-)
<wolfspraul>
not at all
<wolfspraul>
as you can see I am very clear about the status of it, that's why I try to get it across
<wolfspraul>
you are not the first one to ask :-)
<roh>
hrhr
<roh>
hen and egg problem somehow
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
"community needs to grow" is another way to describe it
<wolfspraul>
but how can it grow? needs to be attractive?
<wolfspraul>
needs Linux to be attractive?
<wolfspraul>
who brings Linux there?
<wolfspraul>
etc. etc.
<wolfspraul>
hen and egg, indeed
<wolfspraul>
meanwhile I focus on the video synthesizer :-)
<roh>
there is a clear target market who has no demand for 'vj-ing' equipment with an interrest to use linux on a fully open arch.. the question is how big.
<wolfspraul>
roh: help us attract more devs to the platform
<roh>
to be fair.. i dont have any usecase i'd need vj-ing equipment for. i am interrested in open hw.
<wolfspraul>
we are all 'in favor' of that
<DocScrutinizer>
no mmu was when I stopped on *nix porting to Amiga1000
<roh>
for real vjs (the ones i meet) we need a non-gui user interface anyhow.
<wolfspraul>
roh: the approach with m1 is to make one use case work very well first, in this case video synthesizer. then break through the hen and egg problem like that.
<roh>
they all had notebooks with pd or such with em. and used xga or up resolutions. and they asked how to not have a menu popping up ;)
<roh>
i guess they would have liket to have the mm1 as kind of a 'eth controlled pd playout renderer' instead of keyboard, mouse and gui
<wolfspraul>
agreed, but some of that sounds like relatively minor software mods
<wolfspraul>
one by one
<wolfspraul>
please remember the size of the engineering team that brought it to where it is
<roh>
wolfspraul: i hear you. i am only thinking that there is a balance between trying to reach a self-set spec in reasonable time and widening the target groupt to not end up like openmoko in the end (where we only kept the die-hard-no-binary fraction)
<wolfspraul>
agreed
<roh>
sometimes its just 'making stuff work' to make customers happy
<roh>
regardless of politics
<wpwrak>
it's pretty huge. an EE, a verilog designer, a part-time fpga tool designer, a GUI infrastructure designer, a GUI designer, a driver developer, an AVR chip designer, a AVR USB firmware author, ...
<wpwrak>
oddly enough, they're all called "Sebastien" ;-)
<wpwrak>
so you just need to find more sebastiens :)
<wolfspraul>
there's more people that made significant contributions, and I include soft contributions and those on the edges as well
<wolfspraul>
but still, if we get lost on the long todo list now, that'd be a mistake. at least I won't do it.
<wolfspraul>
I focus on video synthesizer, and need to reach our sales targets there.
<wolfspraul>
which is 200 for 2011, and I'm 31 into it, 169 missing
<roh>
wolfspraul: the question is: is that market that big?
<roh>
with the given current spec
<wolfspraul>
running a little late with rc3, which is hopfeully another 75, hopefully sells in 2-3 months (?), and hopefully leaves enough room for an rc4 to reach the target
<wpwrak>
what would be the changes from rc3 to rc4 ?
<wolfspraul>
roh: the next challenge is a marketing challenge
<wolfspraul>
just look how wpwrak described audience reaction at fisl
<wolfspraul>
now... the question is: can we effectively get the capabilities of m1 across to a large audience? in the next few months?
<wolfspraul>
can we quickly and effectively sell to people around the whole world?
<wolfspraul>
big question marks
<wolfspraul>
if an established company like Roland, M-Audio, etc. would put their marketing muscle behind it, I am 100% sure they could sell 5000 or so in the first year
<wolfspraul>
why? because they throw the same technology into an existing marketing machine
<roh>
wolfspraul: thats the part where i am unsure. is the market with the given spec really big enough? i only meet people who have higher demands.
<wolfspraul>
so it will show up in specialized stores all over the world
<wolfspraul>
no way. the people I meet never once ask about 'specs'
<wpwrak>
you basically need to find a group that loves it enough to forgive its quirks. many of its limitations will be regarded as bugs. if the users love the concept enough, they will forgive virtually everything. so it's important to make them fall in love :)
<wolfspraul>
this product does not need to wipe out everything else in that space, and it won't
<roh>
my guess is that roland or so wouldnt have used that versatile hw but something much more limited to one usecase, still speced higher in some domains (dvi/hdmi ports, hd ready etc)
<wolfspraul>
the difference whether we sell 50 in the next 6 months or 2000 depends entirely on marketing effectiveness
<wolfspraul>
which is a big problem, but alright, we have to meet that challenge
<wpwrak>
roh: you always get a lot of people who want more. let them carry that hecta-core mainframe with two suitcases full of peripherals around ;-)
<wolfspraul>
just count the number of nightclubs in China alone that could put one of these boxes into their place
<wolfspraul>
it must be in the tens of thousands :-)
<roh>
from my pov these matrox 'make 3 out of one vga/dvi port' devices are a bigger contender than roland or so
<wpwrak>
roh: these people will also be extremely vocal, because they're desperate :)
<wolfspraul>
I think that card costs more than the entire m1, including camera
<wolfspraul>
no no
<wolfspraul>
this is not how sales function
<roh>
wpwrak: mainframe? huh? nah. they all just carry that one macbook.
<roh>
wpwrak: also they have multiple beamers with them anyhow, to everything smaller than a notebook is fine.
<wolfspraul>
go to any middle-class hotel in the world, check what projector they have in the conference room. is it the latest and greatest? no
<wolfspraul>
why is it there? because they chain bought it for all hotels, or some company setup the stuff
<wpwrak>
roh: in most clubs, they'll just what is already installed
<wpwrak>
s/just/just use/
<wolfspraul>
why did that company choose it? because they know it, because it's cheap and gives them a big margin? many reasons
<roh>
wolfspraul: low-end beamers are XGA now. high end is fullhd.
<wolfspraul>
so?
<wolfspraul>
if someone doesn't like m1 that's fine
<wolfspraul>
you think too black & white
<wolfspraul>
we need to communicate what it can do
<wolfspraul>
and it needs to work flawlessly and out of the box, dumbed down
<wolfspraul>
and then some people will buy, and hopefully be happy
<wolfspraul>
so... my sales target remains at 200 for 2011 :-)
<wolfspraul>
rc3 is late, unfortunately
<wolfspraul>
we loose 1-2 valuable months of 2011 there
<wolfspraul>
roh: one big issue on the marketing side is also that with m1, there are several new things at once
<wolfspraul>
new technology, new brand, maybe new category, new business model
<wolfspraul>
no sane company would risk all those things together, but we have no other choice right now
<roh>
:)
<wolfspraul>
if it would be an existing brand, and new technology, that would be easier
<wolfspraul>
new brand, old technology - also easier
<wolfspraul>
new business model, old technlogy - all fine
<wolfspraul>
but all of those together - NOT GOOD
<wolfspraul>
it creates a huge marketing challenge
<wolfspraul>
brand = trust
<wolfspraul>
many people will trust a company to sell them something good if they remember that brand positively from the past
<wolfspraul>
we cannot make use of that
<wolfspraul>
they have to trust a new brand, new technology, new category, all at once
<wolfspraul>
also my ability to sell into NanoNote brand is limited, because the product is 5 times more expensive
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: ah, by the way: have you registered any trademarks in the qi-hw universe ? (qi-hw, nanonote, M1, etc.)
<wolfspraul>
so even though I have a sizable number of customers who trust me, the practical outreach is limited
<wolfspraul>
the would buy something for 99 USD from me, many
<wolfspraul>
not even look at the specs for 1 minute
<wolfspraul>
but 499 USD? many will say "too expensive"
<wpwrak>
i don't think it's so much a question of trust. a few nice reviews will settle that.
<wolfspraul>
nah
<wolfspraul>
it's a big wall to climb
<wolfspraul>
I hope we can find some marketing parent corp to help us with global marketing of m1
<wpwrak>
i mean the trust issue. they may still dislike the price, but not because they don't trust you
<roh>
wolfspraul: sure.
<wolfspraul>
the price is great, everything is included in the box like camera
<roh>
500us$ is nicely above the 'expensive geek-toy' class of 299-399E
<wolfspraul>
I agree prices are coming down in electronics, fast
<wolfspraul>
many people don't even closely look at anything above 150 EUR anymore
<wpwrak>
roh: OQO sold quite a few units at a much higher price point. and with a rather interesting list of flaws.
<wolfspraul>
but the downside is that there are only a handful of products left, all the same (big surprise)
<wpwrak>
(oqo) of course, they still didn't make it ...
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: that's long ago
<roh>
wpwrak: not around here. not seen anybody with one
<wolfspraul>
exactly
<wolfspraul>
those times are gone
<wolfspraul>
but...
<wolfspraul>
as always there is a downside
<wolfspraul>
products become extremely boring
<wolfspraul>
because the companies need huge volume, cannot take risks
<wolfspraul>
the first thing many people admire about the m1 is the case
<roh>
?
<roh>
seriously?
<wolfspraul>
who has seen a computer/box like this EVER?
<wolfspraul>
oh sure. simply because it is different
<wolfspraul>
show me something like that? go to any store? everything looks the same there, and getting even worse.
<wolfspraul>
that's the downside of prices going down (and in the background: volumes going up)
<roh>
gazillions of devices on a fair.. the 'messe-version' ;)
<wpwrak>
at FISL, the reaction to the price was that people didn't think it too expensive for what it can do. they may still consider it too expensive in relation to their individual spending power, of course.
<wolfspraul>
roh: what do you mean? interesting stuff at fairs?
<wpwrak>
also, they may change their opinion once all the taxes are added, which they may or may not be aware of
<roh>
wolfspraul: no.. the frequency of custom acryllic showcase-case on fairs
<wolfspraul>
do they make it to the store?
<kristianpaul>
argghh taxes
<wpwrak>
prototypes
<roh>
mostly (atleast around here)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: ;-)
<roh>
to be fair.. most people dont buy hardware in stores anymore. loads of sales shifted to mailorder
<wolfspraul>
I do not believe we can escape the price spiral down, and low prices are good
<wolfspraul>
but I look at this as a function of volume and price, and then I think we do pretty good. Now my focus is sales, then bring price down.
<roh>
why go somewhere to order it then because its not on stock in that version you want?... and stockpiling isnt possible for shops mostly because of the small margin on sales of such stuff.
<roh>
on computer articles you usually have <3% margin for sales to end-customers compared to the recommended sales price. so either you are more expensive or need to push through really many boxes
<wolfspraul>
soon we will have ad-supported hardware that is free
<wolfspraul>
Amazon is making some smart experiments right now, which I believe will succeed
<wolfspraul>
I'm fairly relaxed about all this
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: or the ingenic computer in playboy and some other magazine ;-)
<kristianpaul>
yeah :-)
<wpwrak>
roh: recommended sales price would still include some margin ...
<wolfspraul>
m1 has some fairly unique connectors like dmx, rca video-in, midi
<roh>
wpwrak: some. which is really small in mass market CE
<wolfspraul>
that may also help drive some sales, if marketing is effective in message and reach
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: can it actually *do* anything with DMX ? :)
<roh>
wpwrak: dmx is widely used for lighing control.
<wolfspraul>
I haven't seen it, but sebastien has some dmx patches, I would think they do something
<roh>
basically its 512channel 8bit value control.
<kristianpaul>
i think it reads dmx
<wpwrak>
roh: yes. but does M1 do something with it ?
<DocScrutinizer>
ad-supported free hw. Hell they must earn their money with some other service then
<kristianpaul>
actually code used for osc was derivated from dmx, i think xiangfu did?
<roh>
wpwrak: i think you can control is as well as control lamps from the mm from within patches
<wpwrak>
(midi) another issue is that it can't do USB-midi. again, drivers.
<DocScrutinizer>
given the rationale ads are to make people *buy* stuff
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: let's try perfume ;-)
<roh>
wpwrak: usb-midi? huh? ofcourse you can connect a usb-midi if to the midi of the mm1
<wolfspraul>
I think it makes no sense to compare our hardware that is made and sold in the hundreds or thousands to hardware that is made and sold, or at least anticipated to sell, in the millions or tens of millions
<wolfspraul>
I am very happy that I'm not an investor in that other side, it's at least as risky as our stuff if you think about it
<wolfspraul>
no risk no fun, no risk no profit
<kristianpaul>
DocScrutinizer: may be is just marketing budget anyway.. like when you gave free cloth accesories with brands etc..
<wolfspraul>
so I need to sell 200 m1 boxes this year, end of story.
<wolfspraul>
Samsung needs to sell 5 million tables, or more, who knows. that's their problem, and the gamble they accepted when they did some new piece of hardware.
<wpwrak>
roh: i mean a usb-midi device to usb
<kristianpaul>
yes, thats a very common stuff right now
<roh>
wpwrak: luckily we dont have usb client on the mm;)
<wpwrak>
roh: there's now a ton of small stuff that only talks usb. but it's still midi on top.
<wpwrak>
roh: no, usb host is fine
<kristianpaul>
actuallu i tried to source a midi keyboard for m1, and just founded cheap midi-usb stuff
<roh>
wpwrak: ah.. now i get what you mean. like connecting a usb-midikeyboard to the mm1
<wpwrak>
yup
<wolfspraul>
I know what's next :-)
<wpwrak>
linux ? :)
<roh>
kristianpaul: the same models are avail with midi too. just some euros more
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<roh>
wpwrak: well.. one could use the driver layer... or some 'similar' api to make porting much easier
<kristianpaul>
roh: did  i said i need it _cheap_ ? ;)
<roh>
kristianpaul: i can guess so.
<roh>
it was like 50E usb-midi only, 60 or 65 with midi ports
<wpwrak>
roh: sure, just do that ;-)
<wpwrak>
roh: if they import the "real MIDI" version at all ...
<wpwrak>
roh: not every country is a high-value high-volume market like germany
<roh>
naaah.. its not that nice here
<wpwrak>
i knew you'd say that :)
<roh>
its getting better as the us goes under ;)
<wolfspraul>
hey btw, one small thing
<roh>
asia somehow realises it shoudnt sell the nice stuff there but here.
<wpwrak>
yeah. no us market, need to find others :)
<wolfspraul>
if m1 is successful, there is chance we can build up a reasonable strong free pool/market of visual works, that are freely shared among users
<roh>
wolfspraul: like a 'patch-bay' ?
<wolfspraul>
we are working on that slowly now with the update automatically downloading new patches
<roh>
sorry for the patch vs piratebay pun ;)
<wolfspraul>
that's just the first step but the direction is clear
<wolfspraul>
if uploading/downloading (syncing) is easy, and the quality of that pool reaches a certain critical mass, then that alone may drive sales quite well
<wolfspraul>
attribution of creators needs to work well, maybe even rewarding them (donations, flattr, whatever)
<wolfspraul>
we'll see
<wolfspraul>
so let's not forget that m1 is not just a piece of plastics and physical goods, but also connects to a 100% free world of bits and bytes
<DocScrutinizer>
another appstore?
<wolfspraul>
I said 100% free
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
(patchstore) yup. that's the new way :)
<wolfspraul>
the strengh of the visual works that are either included when sold, or freely and easily downloadable later, is quite important
<wolfspraul>
it creates value
<wolfspraul>
not just higher vga resolutions create value (though of course they do too)
<wpwrak>
yes. create a user community platform. not just some places for developers to hang out with like-minded freaks.
<DocScrutinizer>
for risk see Nokia's N950 (formerly N9) desaster
<wolfspraul>
correct
<wpwrak>
you also want the ability to comment/discuss, have a forum where you can link to/from the patch archive.
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: Nokia is the new Openmoko. don't do what they did and you'll be fine ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
indeed
<wolfspraul>
it is my firm belief that 90%, even more, of tech buyers use only a fraction of the features of the products they buy
<wolfspraul>
for the sake of this argument we can say they use 1% of them
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
why?
<wolfspraul>
because stuff does not work, plain and simple. it's too difficult, they have no time. they press a few buttons, it doesn't do what they want, they move on.
<wpwrak>
there are also more features than they individually need
<wolfspraul>
the approach is exactly the opposite approach from ours (mentally)
<wolfspraul>
we look at the specs first, then we think (with our understanding of software), what is theoretically possible with those specs
<wolfspraul>
90% or more of people do it exacty the other way round
<DocScrutinizer>
plus you usually pick a lot of functionality for "just in case"
<wolfspraul>
they press a few buttons, and see what happens
<wolfspraul>
then that's what they will use of this product
<DocScrutinizer>
like aircrack & monitormode on N900 ;-)
<wolfspraul>
many companies in tech don't care about this, and slowly start to believe that all the great features they are adding is what sells their products
<wolfspraul>
then they ignore the stats that are saying that 90% of 'smartphone' buyers only make phone calls and sms
<wolfspraul>
well then :-)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: so, we linux support, just in case we lost the factory keyboard that came with MM1 :-)
<wolfspraul>
so the main thing for something like m1 is that what it can do is super easy to reach
<wolfspraul>
give the m1 box to a newbie in a test room
<wolfspraul>
record with a camera what happens
<wolfspraul>
if we improve those kinds of things, we can sell tons
<wolfspraul>
I'm sure
<wolfspraul>
not if we dwell over feature lists and think what more could be added
<wolfspraul>
at least that's what I will do, and I took the risk to manufacture them, he he :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
has strange visions of green cards with lao tse sayings on them
<wolfspraul>
I like that card, but it's unrelated to the point I just made.
<wolfspraul>
which is that it's far more important that some basic features are very easy to use, than adding more features on top.
<DocScrutinizer>
it's loosely related
<wolfspraul>
but I need to proove it in sales, not in chat
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (linux support) well, it's just one of those scenarios that can easily happen if you have too narrow a known to be good path. another is the power supply that has to be exactly 5.000 V (exaggerating :)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: (power suply) i think thats fixed for rc3, but is a fair point
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: you basically have to match reasonable expectations. add too many unpredictable restrictions and people will get frustrated. add too many predictable restrictions and they'll think the product is weak. so you need to put it all in a good story.
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: (the new OM) the part that really puzzles me is that literally everybody can see clearly how Elop is a mole sent by M$ to kill the company, just they seem to ask for it and like it
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: makes you wonder what kind of deal he struck with the board of directors, eh ?
<DocScrutinizer>
I dunno if at OM there was an parallel after I left :-)
<wolfspraul>
I don't believe the mole story. I think it's just exceedingly hard to turn the company around now.
<DocScrutinizer>
probably OM could have sold a gta03 and gta04 and 05, if only we wouldn't have started from square one basically 3 times for one product. a gta03 with s3c2442 would have sold another 5000 units
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: i had proposed to make a cleaned up gta02 ... but of course, nobody listens to me :)
<wolfspraul>
the Microsoft deal is totally US centric and ignores 'traditions', yeah well. don't fight with mother nature, is the US expression.
<wolfspraul>
Elop decided to fight with mother nature, and I believe it will not work.
<roh>
who cares. one big contender less.
<wolfspraul>
om was unrescuable since day 1
<DocScrutinizer>
and probably Nokia could have sold millions of N9 when they just had rolled out their N950 design last year as they could've done
<wolfspraul>
the mother bug...
<roh>
i guess android has >50% market share on smartphones already when counting all the chinese knock-off-iphones
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: cleaned up gta02 hadn't sold >100 devices
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: correct, because it was never made ;-)
<wolfspraul>
do we think that Nokia might have had a chance with an all-Meego strategy?
<DocScrutinizer>
meh
<wolfspraul>
it would have been risky, but not less than what they do now
<wolfspraul>
it's so obvious to me that they will be following Palm's lead now
<DocScrutinizer>
I'm sure they would've had a chance with all-maemo strategy
<DocScrutinizer>
btw they are in fact back to maemo now, even while they call it meego ;-)
<wolfspraul>
ok, I didn't want to distinguish between the two, I just meant a 'homegrown Linux/free software' strategy
<wolfspraul>
Nokia will proudly go where Palm was before, oh well
<wolfspraul>
maybe HP can buy the rest of it in a few years :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
the N9 might well fly, just Elop killed it in advance by telling it won't be followed even if it was a success
<DocScrutinizer>
you *don't do that* on a new product
<DocScrutinizer>
that's why makes the mule state obvious
<DocScrutinizer>
nothing about turning around the company
<wolfspraul>
what can Nokia do better now that HTC cannot do already?
<DocScrutinizer>
they had a semi decent strategy for trans-platform development with Qt - Elop says Qt won't ever be supported on WP
<wolfspraul>
and Nokia carries expensive legacy with it, staff, pensions, facilities, support obligations, etc.
<DocScrutinizer>
basically Nokia nuked their smartphone segment for good now, with a triple stroke
<DocScrutinizer>
strike*
<wolfspraul>
do they have a content strategy?
<DocScrutinizer>
no more
<wolfspraul>
well. the Nokia boots are still selling in Finland I read. so there is a fallback base :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
indeed
<wpwrak>
maybe they can also make guided tours through the ruins :)
<DocScrutinizer>
like in chernobyl
<DocScrutinizer>
hell, they're selling one million symbian featurephones a day, and aren't able to sustain a proper smartphone strategy
<DocScrutinizer>
they even have a product that's well on par with iPhone UX wise, and still opt for nuking all that for going elopocalypse-now
<roh>
still doesnt get why you care about other companies suicides
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: he's currently trying to get the government to make it easier to start small companies. he'll need thousands of them ;-)
<wpwrak>
roh: indeed. nokia are irrelevant.
<wpwrak>
roh: well, mostly. losing the batteries will be a pain. they were an easy reference for all sorts of other devices.
<roh>
wpwrak: i dont see china stopping building them
<roh>
;)
<wolfspraul>
roh: trying to understand which pieces of tech are reusable for a future copyleft hw phone
<wolfspraul>
that's why I follow Nokia
<wpwrak>
roh: once the nokia phones disappear, so will the nokia batteries.
<roh>
wolfspraul: sure. concepts stay. but details change
<roh>
e.g. i'd not use any of the soc we used then etc.
<roh>
wpwrak: there are gazillions of devices using these batteries. lets care when we must (in 10 years or so)
<roh>
we will see movement in that area anyhow. li-po and li-ion will get replaced gradually as lifepo gets cheaper and more dense (more secure chemistry)
<roh>
also nokia sells much more non-smart-phones as smart ones.
<roh>
my guess is they also earn more on 3g licensing than on building smartphones themselves
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: yes, i met the project like 3 years ago in a talk he gave for a local FLOSS event, i wonder that it still alive at least :)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: oh yes, he's still on it. at least he was last wednesday :)
<wolfspraul>
ahh, good point
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: first was 1GB wifi tech or something that he predict today will be avaliable, but seems not, so now ethernet.. well.. i want to see how all this will end
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: did you catch up with maddog on all of those many wild free phone plans of the past?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: we held that service already some months ago, when he was visiting buenos aires for some other conference.
<DocScrutinizer>
roh: I care simply because I need a handheld device that works and meets my requirements. Nokia produced such devices for some time. Seems they stopped on that, and probably won't pick up this product line any time soon again
<DocScrutinizer>
I'm honestly considering android
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer: Android now :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
heads out for the bathroom
<wolfspraul>
I mentally skipped over all this, that's why I build this NanoNote and Milkymist stuff...
<wolfspraul>
and why I am excited about the ben-wpan project, or kristianpaul's gps baseband
<DocScrutinizer>
been there 6 years ago, when I realized it's a PITA to have a phone separate from the PDA where your contacts are stored
<wolfspraul>
but of course, nothing that comes even close in practical use today to N900, N whatever, Android anything. I know that.
<wolfspraul>
oh of course, we need to integrate it
<wolfspraul>
but as you noticed I didn't follow on the N900 path, and I don't regret
<wolfspraul>
and I won't follow on the Android path
<roh>
is still on featurephone an real computers. for light traveling i have a eeepc. would switch to lenovo X120 if i had money now
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: COPYING mentioned COPYING.GPLv2, COPYING.LGPLv21 which weren't included. Added them. (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/298f084
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: AUTHORS: werner@openmoko.org is now werner@almesberger.net (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/e549ee4
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/lib/atusb-common.c (atusb_open): give more detailed error message on EPERM (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/1615375
<rjeffries>
Asus announced a THIN $200 Netbook that runs Meego.
<wpwrak>
rejon made contact with people from the mozilla foundation and we also pinged google. all this needs following up, probably in person. so rejon again :)
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: the problem of the pioneers...
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: yeah, sometimes I wonder which conf he actually misses. :) Met him at guadac back in 2008 and at FOSS.In 2009
<stefan_schmidt>
is up to his next victim: write2
<wpwrak>
he's everywhere :)
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: he and his clones
<wpwrak>
the multiverse interpretation of quantum physics is probably right. and people like rejon and lekernel can actually make use of their parallel selves :)
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: cheater
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: install/INSTALL-Ben: switch linux-zigbee tools source from (old) tarball to git (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/17f7b66
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/lib/atben.c: check if the 8:10 slot is available and fail if it isn't (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/f535a80
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: TODO: removed EPERM, added usb_read_bulk vs. signal, toolchain, DFU on U1010 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/e610a9e
<viric>
wolfspraul: thank you for appearing nanonixos on the news, btw :) without any screenshot hehe
<viric>
xiangfu: offrss 1.1 out!
<xiangfu>
viric: thanks for notice. I will update our package.
<viric>
thank you very much :)
<viric>
xiangfu: you are the only one in the world doing anything about offrss ;)
<viric>
of course I think the program rocks, but some curtain keeps people blind.
<kyak>
viric: btw, i'm myself using newsbeuter on my PC :)
<viric>
kyak: nothing comparable to offrss+elinks
<viric>
;)
<wolfspraul>
free software never dies
<wolfspraul>
viric: if you have a nanonixos screenshot, that'd still be cool
<viric>
I'll open a ticket about that
<viric>
I've troubles remembering this.
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
you rememberd to thank me for including it in the news, which is over 1 month ago!
<wolfspraul>
so I'm not worried, one day you will have the screenshot :-)
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: write2 works now. At least I can see the 230 go through hw_init setting the state to STATE_TRX_OFF and reading the correct value back
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: it stops while setting the SR_CLKM_SHA_SEL register
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: wow, no it went through the whole registering
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: something is still fishy as sometimes the async urb are failing and sometimes not
<wpwrak>
stefan_schmidt: looks good :) are you also enqueuing an URB for the bulk EP 1 ? that would then give you interrupts
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: not yet. Need to understand why not always all urbs are coming through. And I need to implement READ2 and getting address setting etc working
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: but at least some real progress here.
<wpwrak>
yeah, looking better every minute :)
<wpwrak>
rejon: heya ! had some good flights ?
<rejon>
wpwrak, yep
<rejon>
biz class
<rejon>
to chicago, to miami
<rejon>
now here chillin
<wpwrak>
sounds comfty :)
<wpwrak>
why ORD-MIA ? seems like a bit of a detour
<parolang>
How long does reflash_ben.sh usually take?
<parolang>
Nevermind, now it's doing something :)
<kyak>
parolang: congratualtions :)
<parolang>
Thanks guys.  I assume you guys are in China, which I imagine it's late there.  Didn't expect anyone one :)
<wpwrak>
parolang: we're everywhere ;-)
<wpwrak>
parolang: and welcome to the club ! :)
<parolang>
Honestly, I have gratitude towards those who took the risk in manufacturing the device.  I don't know if you've made your money back yet, hope so :)
<wpwrak>
stefan_schmidt: how's the battle going ? :)
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: struggling to understand why some urbs are not going through sometimes.
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: reading about how to handle such cases and how to re-submit, etc
<wpwrak>
stefan_schmidt: what does "not going through" mean ? do they come back with an error ? do they just never complete ?
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: What I'm also missung to understand right now is how we would handle the INT with USB
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: come back with error
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: going to collect the numbers now to see if they stay the same or if we have different errors
<wpwrak>
stefan_schmidt: (int) easy: enqueue an URB on EP1 to receive 1 byte. when the URB completes, fire the interrupt and enqueue another URB.
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: btw, did you have time or motivation to put one of your atusb into your pc and test the driver?
<wpwrak>
stefan_schmidt: (int cont'd) when shutting the driver down, simply cancel the last pending EP 1 URB
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: so it waits there and the firmware does only react if a irq is needed?
<wpwrak>
(react) yes
<stefan_schmidt>
ok
<wpwrak>
(install) not yet, but i'll do so in 1-2 hours. just catching up on silly little things to do
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: I also do only hit read 1 and write 2 from the classifier
<stefan_schmidt>
even when doing an address set via ip
<stefan_schmidt>
That one still fails though
<wpwrak>
the address set shouldn't do much down there anyway
<stefan_schmidt>
(testing) cool
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: ah, right. That will only happen when doing auto ack and therefor hw address filtering
<wpwrak>
what should produce a longer read/write are izcoordinator and iz assoc ...
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: I was thinking in terms of cc2420 and forgot that 230 does not have this yet
<stefan_schmidt>
(iz) not done this yet
<wpwrak>
(nb: read2 is not used so far. that would be for SRAM access. don't know if we'll ever run into a case that needs it.)
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: ok. What would be a case for write 2+n then?
<stefan_schmidt>
maybe we really only have read 1 and write 2 yet
<wpwrak>
you could izchat for longer read/write
<wpwrak>
or else izcoordinator/iz assoc
<wpwrak>
and then dirtpan and whatever :)
<stefan_schmidt>
so nothing I'm doing right now :)
<stefan_schmidt>
means there hopefully is no bug with not hitting this cases right now. Just not the right use cases :)
<wpwrak>
so all works exactly like expected :) well, except the errors
<stefan_schmidt>
yeah
<stefan_schmidt>
The urb erros are what I'm looking into now
<wpwrak>
the errors may actually be good. perhaps they tell us something useful. e.g., whether the USB controller has tried to get data. that could be very handy for synchronizing
<stefan_schmidt>
doing some more tests and noting down the error codes
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: so far it seems only to be -32 (EPIPE) and happens for both read1 and write2
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: another case is that is something just stalls without error on write2
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: That also leads to a "stuck" atusb which I have to unplug and re-plug to make it work again
<stefan_schmidt>
need to check if the write2 stall and the "stucked" atusb are the same case
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: two more times write2 stall and "stuck" atusb afterwards. Seems indeed related.
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: Stalled endpoint (-EPIPE) from Documentation/usb/URB.txt
<wpwrak>
hmm. that usually means that your request wasn't understood. could it be that you're not initializing something ?
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: could be
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: strange is that is does not happen all the time
<wpwrak>
maybe i should add a debug log ...
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: maybe just luck in the working cases
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: Am I supposed to do a ATUSB_RESET?
<wpwrak>
that would reset the AVR
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: I know
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: so far I only reset the rf230
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: No AVR reset needed I get it?
<wpwrak>
no AVR reset needed
<stefan_schmidt>
ok
<wpwrak>
by the way, do you know that you can snoop USB with wireshark ?
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: yeah, seen something like this. Just never used.
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: wanna me to a trace?
<kristianpaul>
think that logs are an essential part for every application
<stefan_schmidt>
kristianpaul: doing the log on the micro controller fimrware is not that easy :)
<kristianpaul>
hum :)
<stefan_schmidt>
kristianpaul: the kernel driver side is easy enough with printk and dmesg :)
<kristianpaul>
a serial port i will think, coluld be usefull, even only with  TX, but i'm not aware of the details of wpwrak atben/atusb implementation
<kristianpaul>
s/i/it
<stefan_schmidt>
kristianpaul: so far we should be able to work with the tools we have. Actually I don't expect to much trouble on the firmware side.
<kristianpaul>
good plan :)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: serial would be nice to have but messy to implement
<kristianpaul>
man, ietf is like wikipedia every page link to another rfc..
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: or a blink led :)
<kristianpaul>
two blink leds and you're done ;)
<methril_work>
wpwrak, i`ve implemented some serial/usart features in some devices
<methril_work>
not so hard..
<methril_work>
but so arch dependant
<methril_work>
today i fix one bug in ISR for RX when RX is not enabled !! and i could debug again!! /)
<methril_work>
;)
<methril_work>
bbl going home
<wpwrak>
methril: adding a uart is very easy. connecting it can be messy.
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw/: added optional debug log with request ATUSB_READ_LOG (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/39e3d4e
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/atrf-id/atrf-id.c: new option -D to read atusb debug log (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/391c37f
<wpwrak>
stefan_schmidt: if you set DEBUG_LOG and build the new firmware, you should be able to see the last operations with atrf-id -D
<wpwrak>
back in a sec
<wpwrak>
these are all the things that aren't standard USB control transfers
<wpwrak>
output is a bit ugly. prettifying it ...
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: done, you want the output when it hangs?
<qi-bot>
[commit] Stefan Schmidt: ieee802154/at86rf230: Be more verbose and disable irq handling for now (ben-wpan-stefan) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/88bf9af
<wpwrak>
now. let's have a look at your code ...
<wpwrak>
read1 and write2 are affected ?
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: write2 only it seems
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: just waited for you to come back
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: getting to tired here. I think in 10 mintes I have to go to bed
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: all changes are commited. Feel free to commit directly into my branch or do your own on top of it
<wpwrak>
erm ...
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: but I can spare some minutes for code review
<wpwrak>
you're freeing the URB immediately after submitting it ?
<wpwrak>
i'd rather do the freeing in the callback :)
<stefan_schmidt>
that one survived from the wait_for_compe.. scheme I had before
<stefan_schmidt>
mumbles something about getting blind while reading own code
<stefan_schmidt>
it must be blazing fast when it sometimes works out well before freeing :)
<stefan_schmidt>
lets see if this fixes all issues
<stefan_schmidt>
oh, I'm not passing atusb as context but the spi message
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: Revert "atusb/fw/: added optional debug log with request ATUSB_READ_LOG" (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/ead7ade
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: Revert "tools/atrf-id/atrf-id.c: new option -D to read atusb debug log" (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/5059597
<stefan_schmidt>
no handle
<wpwrak>
seems that we don't need this after all :)
<stefan_schmidt>
maybe I should add the msg to the atusb struct as we need both in the callback
<wpwrak>
(blazing fast) well, depends how soon the memory gets overwritten :)
<wpwrak>
(add msg) sounds reasonable. there can be only one message in flight at a time anyway
<stefan_schmidt>
yup
<stefan_schmidt>
will do that
<wpwrak>
you also need a pointer to the transfer
<wpwrak>
then you can make it all very nice and compact
<wpwrak>
err, no ... silly me. the second transfer has to be handled at the same time as the first
<wpwrak>
so you just pass the rx/tx buffer as transfer_buffer/buffer_length in usb_fill_control_urb
<stefan_schmidt>
hopes the first try works out. Bedtime.
<wpwrak>
if you want me to continue experimenting ... i still have about 4 l of fuel (coke) left
<stefan_schmidt>
(compact) There are a lot things that needs to be cleaned up and can be done more compact. I often gone the lazy path.
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: If you have time and motivation I would love you to experiment
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: I'm just trying my changes for the free in the callback now and then I need sleeping
<wpwrak>
kewl. wiring up my old "pc for experiments"
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: And I'm pretty sure you will spot many more bugs from me in the code :)
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: as I said, I'm fine you you push it directly into my branch (or anywhere else you want)
<stefan_schmidt>
getting up tomorrow and have some more fixs in would be great after /me battling that long with this "simple" driver
<stefan_schmidt>
This free() thing makes me a bit angry wasting your and my time. But shows clearly that I got blind on my own code
<wpwrak>
tiredness can do this sometimes :)
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: hanging again in write2 with my change...
<qi-bot>
[commit] Stefan Schmidt: spi/atusb: Freeing the urb in the callback instead directly after submit. (ben-wpan-stefan) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/c1c2213
<stefan_schmidt>
tentative fix but does not help
<stefan_schmidt>
sleep now or I'm just doing more stupid things
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: have fun with it for the next hours.
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: I should be back in 8 hours or so.
<wpwrak>
can you push the latest version ?
<wpwrak>
ah, here it is
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: all in now, no more local changes. You have the whole mess. :)
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: night
<wpwrak>
now .. to find a vga cable that hasn't been ubb-vga-modded ...