01:45 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ioscript/ioscript: allow positions to be redefined (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/b4530ff

01:45 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: swuart/: split general UART functions from application (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/2e749f9

01:45 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: swuart/: merge library part into libubb (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/1c51cc6

01:45 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: swuart/: convert "hammering the peer" demo into a primitive interactive chat (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/519ebe6

01:45 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: libubb/swuart.c (swuart_open): start TX high, not low (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/842766b

06:00 <kyak> wpwrak: are you thinking about a particular use case for the SW UART?

06:00 <kyak> is it possible to use it for serial console?

06:00 <kyak> i mean, use UBB for serial console then

10:45 <wpwrak> kyak: (use case) yes, i want t use it to in-circuit program NXP LPC111x series MCUs. they use a surprisingly text-heavy protocol and it all goes over a UART.

10:46 <wpwrak> it wouldn't work so well for a serial console (either end of it) since you always get small breaks where the receiver is not polling

10:47 <wpwrak> for a driver that doesn't have this problem, things would have to move into the kernel, with an interrupt handler signaling the reception of a start bit

11:13 <hellekin> wpwrak: did you have a look at http://www.kosagi.com/w/index.php?title=Novena_Main_Page ?

11:15 <wpwrak> heard of it, yes. dunno. laptops didn't strike me as a big openness problem so far.

11:16 <wpwrak> i.e., all the equipment i have does what it has to do without nasty closed source drivers or messy binary firmware. maybe there is binary firmware somewhere (though i don't think so) but it's handled transparently enough that i don't have to worry about it.

11:17 <wpwrak> plus, a laptop is easily extended via USB, so - without any more specific requirements - there's not really a pressing need for having special built-in hardware features (such as expansion headers, fpgas, etc.)

11:18 <wpwrak> plus, a laptop is a complex system, so this is a lot of work and it's expensive to make. not as bad as a smartphone, but substantial

11:20 <wpwrak> ah, and my laptops have of course all intel graphics. no money wasted on nvidia or ati here. if they want to keep their products a secret, then they can keep their products ;-)

11:54 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: how old is your laptop?

11:55 <lindi-> wpwrak: http://lindi.iki.fi/lindi/firmware/free-firmware.txt has two laptop related entries

11:58 <kristianpaul> batteries

11:58 <kristianpaul> thats a point need more openess, well you hack the pack but..

11:58 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: one is some 4-5 years old (a fujitsu u1010), the other maybe 2 (an asus netbook)

11:59 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: so you believe the history of restricted boot etc?

12:00 <kristianpaul> or drm inside the processors..

12:00 <kristianpaul> i would partially agree that laptops still fair open as the restrictions seems to be imposed somwhere else (tablets. for example)

12:01 <lindi-> I'd very much like to have a TPM to hold the hdd encryption keys of my laptop but I have a cheap model that doesn't support it

12:02 <lindi-> now it is quite trivial to bruteforce against my passphrase

12:02 <kristianpaul> I do like that for portable harddrives

12:03 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: my systems all predate restricted boot :)

12:04 <lindi-> I also think that RMS is doing more harm than good inventing these odd alternative terms :)

12:04 <kristianpaul> okay lets wait some more years

12:04 <kristianpaul> lindi-: he good point :)

12:05 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: and i don't know of any DRM in my cpus either. of course, i stick with intel there.

12:08 <lindi-> wpwrak: I guess it depends on what you exactly count as DRM. do you include the SENTER instruction in your CPU?

12:16 <wpwrak> hmm, don't even know what it is :)

12:21 <lindi-> wpwrak: it's a way to build dynamic root of trust: e.g. to make it possible for a userland process to operate on encryption keys even when rest of the system is compromised

12:22 <lindi-> wpwrak: SENTER instruction is like a normal branch except that it 1) disables other cores and interrupts 2) calculates a hash of the target code (up to 64KB) 3) tells the TPM that "we are now executing code that matches hash X and there is nothing that can interfere"

12:23 <lindi-> wpwrak: the TPM can then be told things like "please create a new RSA key and let only blocks with hashes X, Y and Z operate using it"

12:24 <lindi-> wpwrak: when you are done you execute the SEXIT instruction

12:26 <wpwrak> nice. but as far as i know, there's no TPM in my machines. and if there's anything like that, it's dormant. i.e., i had no troubles installing linux.

12:27 <lindi-> yeah you need several primitives to make anything useful with SENTER

12:36 <lindi-> wpwrak: if you want to hear more about the positive uses of these technologies I suggest reading about http://qubes-os.org/trac

12:42 <wpwrak> yeah,even the most vile technology can have good uses :)

12:42 <wpwrak> i do wonder whether it's worth the effort to worry about things at such a low level. i mean, apart from academic interest and the tin foil hat faction.

12:43 <lindi-> wpwrak: well I'm just interested in the technology and want to know what is possible