<DocScrutinizer05>
cast steel (is this the name for Grauguss?) has >2% carbon, thus it isn't supposed to rust, aiui. Any rsuting probably will stop as soon as the carbon concentrates on the surface... unless you remove that "passivation coat", just like with EloxAl where you're NOT supposed to remove the coating or a new one has to build up
<DocScrutinizer05>
( wild guessing here ^^^ )
<DocScrutinizer05>
wiki just says "usually doesn't rust unless you damage the coating"
lamrz has joined #qi-hardware
<DocScrutinizer05>
and since they are not talking about a particular object that has a dedicated coating of whatever, done by the one who built it... This is about that type of steel at large
<whitequark>
hm, read up some stuff on it
<whitequark>
apparently just cast iron rusts at about the same rate, .1mm/year, but since stuff you made out of it is thicker, it's not as noticeable
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>Gusseisenteile mit unverletzter Gusshaut sind besser korrosionsbeständig als Stahl<<
<whitequark>
HOWEVER, if you don't remove the crust that's left after casting, that crust, if not damaged, somewhat delays rusting
<DocScrutinizer05>
exact translation :-)
wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware
<wpwrak>
well, i know that the pipes we have around here rust slowly and that's what everyone expects them to do. alas, there's some weakness in implementing suitable maintenance protocols ... (it could always fix it so far, so we would we need to replace it ? naw, too expensive.)
<wpwrak>
#s/it could/we could/
<wpwrak>
bleh. orthography is screwed up. still some residual effects from all the excitement :)
<wpwrak>
ah, the fun bit: coming tuesday, there will be a reunion of the apartment owners plus the building administration (schedules already a while ago, to discuss the budget). i expect it to get rather entertaining this time, given recent events.
<whitequark>
beatings?
jow_laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
<wpwrak>
we'll see. back when there was a major conflict over the previous administration (some people tried a bit of a smear campaign, but the administrator prevailed - but resigned a few years later since the work got too much for her (she's already some 80+, i think)), it did come to blows at one of the many sessions we had until things were settled.
<whitequark>
wow, I thought I was joking
jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware
<whitequark>
although this just makes it all better. administration + entertainment, two in one
<wpwrak>
yeah, it can get rather lively :)
jow_laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware
wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
lamrz has quit [Quit: Leaving]
lamrz has joined #qi-hardware
lamrz_ has joined #qi-hardware
lamrz has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
lamrz_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
lamrz has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
BerryHalsak has joined #qi-hardware
lamrz has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
lamrz has joined #qi-hardware
lamrz has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05>
will you waer your rugby outfit? :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wait, there been that dude with his "unbreakable" suit, who wrestled with grisly bears and alligators and whatnot, and smashed into driving cars etc to prove his suit actually worked
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe the right dresscode for such event?
wej has joined #qi-hardware
<wpwrak>
i wonder whether i should install a camera somewhere :)
xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware
xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<DocScrutinizer05>
one?
BerryHalsak has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Luke-Jr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware
wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
wej has joined #qi-hardware
wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware
jekhor has joined #qi-hardware
wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
wej has joined #qi-hardware
sb0 has joined #qi-hardware
wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware
lamrz has joined #qi-hardware
sb0 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
sb0_ has joined #qi-hardware
Luke-Jr has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware
wej has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<whitequark>
paul_boddie: I wonder what is it made of
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's the Alu backcover of Estel_
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: (CTX gamma 2000 TC) there's just one really huge problem with this thing: _where_ do you place it in your flat? ;-P
<paul_boddie>
Yes, it's the notorious backcover, but I guess other materials might be possible. Nice that they shared the design, though.
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: no, that is actually not a problem
<whitequark>
because if I actually have enough money to buy *that*, I could as well buy a few flats in Moscow or in London or NY
<DocScrutinizer05>
well he had to, after he bashed me and Nik for not instantly and unconditionaly sharing Neo900 _complete_^4 files and data
<DocScrutinizer05>
sombebody called him out on it for his own project idling in a limbo since a year or longer
<DocScrutinizer05>
paul_boddie: ^^^
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: you spoiled it :-P
<larsc>
hm, down to 5%, that's pretty dry
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway now you have an idea what CNC _really_ means ;-) And still there's soooo much this thing can NOT do. Let's start with all sorts of flasks etc
<DocScrutinizer05>
seems a metal sintering / welding 3D printer sometimes is clearly the more versatile alternative
<wpwrak>
whitequark: "look m'am, no coolant !" :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, quite interesting
<wpwrak>
and i don't need their machine. i'd be happy enough to just have their tool changer :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess they used the right steel (easy cut) for their object to build, so they could forget about that nasty ugly messy cooling which evidently would have spoiled their cool video presentation. Nobody is interested in the machine's capabilities to squirt some cooling liquid on that stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
the tool changer is almost shocking, yeah. Must be hundreds of tools
<whitequark>
48
<whitequark>
I checked the datasheet
<DocScrutinizer05>
nope, for sure more, 48 seem to be less than the ones I *seen* moving by on that endless tape
<wpwrak>
maybe 48 is the basic model :)
<whitequark>
24 is the basic one. 48 is the chain variant
<whitequark>
which we see
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05 can find the pdf himself, I already closed it
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe 48 is the number of tools _used_ in that video ;-)
<wpwrak>
paul_boddie: is there a picture of it anywhere ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think I *see* more than 48 here
<wpwrak>
no, i mean paul's link. n900 backcover.
<wpwrak>
(3d printing) i think we'll see a big change with stereo lithography. it's still not quite established in the low-cost segment, but there are many people/companies working on it.
wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: search in tmo for alu backcover
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's a thread started by Estel about it
<wpwrak>
well, did he ever actually make it ? and post a picture ?
<wpwrak>
the beginning of the thread talks about what it'll be like. at the end, there's nothing either. the whole thread is very long.
<wpwrak>
seems that he has no fab capabilities himself, not even for prototyping ?
<wpwrak>
that sounds like a bumpy approach ;) (i always find that i need to do lots of tweaks, so for one design i like, i make several attempts that just don't work. even if it's something much simpler than that.)
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's a picture _somewhere_, I've seen it. And he talks about his own CNC machine somewhere in this thread
<DocScrutinizer05>
but honestly I don't like to talk about anything estel-related
<DocScrutinizer05>
and honestly - WHO the HECK needs a metal case with extended battery capabilities, to connect that to external antennas then? Doesn't sound exactly portable/mobile anyway, which _totally_ defeats the purpose of battery as well as whole device
<whitequark>
maybe he could mill a metal mould and then make an extruded case
<DocScrutinizer05>
he lightly talks about the hirose U-FLplugs on internal cables and the RP-SMA on outside, conveniently neglecting that the internal antennas are totally obsolete then, both by the U-FL plug switching off antenna as well as the case itself totally shielding antennas
<wpwrak>
yeah, i realize the limitations of having a metal case :) i'm more curious about the machining
wej_ has joined #qi-hardware
wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware
<DocScrutinizer05>
I doubt you will enjoy reading details about it
bartbes has quit []
<DocScrutinizer05>
estel is clearly a troll and a pita, and I doubt he has much to contribute to the topic CNC that you didn't know 20 years ago already
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I don't like to talk about him, since I have a hard time not going personal when I do
<DocScrutinizer05>
after all that guy has a personal vendetta against me since 2 years at least
<DocScrutinizer05>
(I'm not the only one enjoying that honor)
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway for now he's banned
<DocScrutinizer05>
he worked hard to achieve that, but he obviously been wildly determined to earn another ban (not his first one)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I discourage you to answer his posts or ask questions on anything he ever posted
<DocScrutinizer05>
he inevitably will start to bitch at you as well, or otherwise troll Neo900 project once more
<DocScrutinizer05>
once he gets unbanned, that is
<paul_boddie>
Anyway, I only brought it up because maybe you get the benefit of this little escapade regardless of who started it. ;-)
<wpwrak>
paul_boddie: thanks !
<DocScrutinizer05>
seen the convenient ranting in this post you linked? and the link to http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1427271&postcount=111 on which he actually received infraction points from me, for again badmouthing me and particularly for doing this by stating lies resp unsupported assertions
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, but hey, we could do that, no?
<DocScrutinizer05>
"move on, nothing to see here!"
bartbes has joined #qi-hardware
<wpwrak>
maybe he's just bored. throw him a bone every now and then, and he'll happily work is arse off for you ;-)
<wpwrak>
(we can do it) would depend on how much manual work went into this. if it came out of the machine like that, i couldn't do it
<wpwrak>
note that this piece has been worked on from both sides. and wall thickness looks pretty constant. so whoever did the milling has good equipment.
<wpwrak>
ah, backcover_* is also estel. your banning only seems to make him hide better ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: (bone) nope, doesn't work
jekhor has joined #qi-hardware
<DocScrutinizer05>
please get this right: it's NOT *my* banning. Bans are triggered by vBulletin when somebody earns enough infraction points
<DocScrutinizer05>
there are pretty clear rules about (even the amount of) infraction points moderators are _supposed_ to hand out for misbehavior
<DocScrutinizer05>
trolling is one reason, personal insult another, no matter who gets insulted and who insults
xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05>
trolling earns 15 points iirc, insult 20. System ban kicks in at 30. You can't hand out multiple infraction penalties at same post. So he at least had a second post where he earned the remaining points to trip the magic 30
<DocScrutinizer05>
and his last ban which got "amnestied" it seems, been just a some 4 weeks ago, for very identical misbehavior
<DocScrutinizer05>
last ban not been caused by me but also was for trolling Neo900 project
<wpwrak>
ah well, that maemo gang is a funny crowd. they have a council, a scoring system in their forum, ... you must have snatched up quite some politicians on the way ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
he got muted for ~1 week, returned thanks to super mod obviously amnestied him, and instantly continued same badmouthing and trolling
<DocScrutinizer05>
huh? I guess that scoring system is pretty much global standard for vBulletin fora
<DocScrutinizer05>
and who else is going to take care about all the friggin administrative tasks if not council?
<DocScrutinizer05>
thus council seems not inspired by politics but rather by management
<wpwrak>
the greatest achievement of the devil was to convince people that he didn't exist.
<DocScrutinizer05>
haha
<wpwrak>
the greatest achievement of politicians was to convince people they need them ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
you gotta know, eh?
<wpwrak>
oh, we have a vice president getting grilled in court over some rather shady dealings this very moment :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I didn't think of third party hearsay
<wpwrak>
and apparently, the pope say fit to express his best wishes for the judge in charge of this
* DocScrutinizer05
imagines wpwrak sitting at home, sending mails and other memos, and laughing at Machiavelli
<wpwrak>
(probably remembering the fate of falcone and borsellino)
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wpwrak>
i like Machiavelli's no-nonsense style :)
xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware
jekhor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<DocScrutinizer05>
probably you also invented the guy who allegedly wrote Illuminatus
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
jekhor has joined #qi-hardware
<wpwrak>
no, i took reading suggestions from that book. like "Coup d'Etat - A practical handbook". i though they had just invented this, but no, it does exist :)
* DocScrutinizer05
tries a few anagram transforms between "Werner Almesberger" and "R. A. Wilson" and/or "Robert Shea"
<wpwrak>
youdo me to much honor :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I just wonder about the horrible amount of influence from politics that resulted in OM having a boss and even departments with their own department leaders and assigned tasks
<DocScrutinizer05>
can't have been as much as in maemo, since at least no *elections* (eeeew! the worst thing politics ever invented) in OM, ever
<DocScrutinizer05>
but clearly Nokia establishing/agreeing on a councl been one move that for sure qualifies for Machiavelli award, there at least you're absolutely right
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: could you please share your ideas about better alternatives to moderation of any sorts (incl penalties and even banning of poisonous members) for the usual public forum? I'm absolutely sure there are a ~10k people that would love to hear about any better alternative, first of them being the moderators who generally hate their job
<DocScrutinizer05>
NB I got shanghaied for council as well as for moderation of the Neo900 subforum (the latter really came by surprise and I still wonder why tmo admin decided to do this)
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway I'm really happy my definitely last term in council will end in 4 weeks the latest
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I'd *love* to see *you* applying for moderation of neo900 subforum, so I could rsign from that task as well
<DocScrutinizer05>
resign even
<DocScrutinizer05>
alas I'm afraid even when you would apply, the tmo admin/super-mod will not even consider
<DocScrutinizer05>
he also rejected to make dos1 a mod for that forum, despite me pushing for it
<DocScrutinizer05>
now THATS politics
<wpwrak>
oh, so this structure came from nokia. now it begins to make sense ...
<wpwrak>
for moderation, i'd just remove the clearly illegal stuff. ignore trolling and insults. like anyone else should. then the trolls and insulters go away on their own.
<DocScrutinizer05>
haha, yeah. IF _everybody_ would ignore them
<wpwrak>
you can just sit them out. your anger is their reward. so the harder you seem to work to "control" them, the happier they are
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, won't fly, it's been tried on tmo a bazillion times
<wpwrak>
(dos1) i'd call this luck, for him ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
and you seem to suffer a misconception here - moderation and anger are completely unrelated
<DocScrutinizer05>
moderation means: move around posts, create new threads for posts OT in another thread, and occasionally hand out infraction points according to a clear set of rules which definitely do NOT include the word "anger" anywhere
<DocScrutinizer05>
and beware of "remove the clearly illegal stuff" since that will instantly start a shitstorm about your "obviously totally perverted idea of what's illegal", your censorship and dictatorship and generally about wtf you are mod at all
<paul_boddie>
I'm still surprised that people still congregate around Nokia-initiated services: did no-one notice that Nokia doesn't hand out shiny gadgets any more?
<paul_boddie>
Then again, maybe that's the point of keeping some of these things around.
<DocScrutinizer05>
sounds like "I'm still surprised that anybody still uses linux. Didn't they notice slackware got abandoned?"
<paul_boddie>
Well, my impression was that Nokia attracted people who wanted gadgets to play with, but the intended community didn't really give the expected benefits.
<paul_boddie>
I mean how many people picked up multiple N-series models for free and what was the effect of these developer give-aways?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no matter if that's correct or not, how would it have any relevance for somebody using *.maemo.org services, which btw are virtually completely owned by the community since 18 months?
<paul_boddie>
Well, I was just commenting on the apparent shark tank nature of the whole thing. Doesn't sound like a bunch of people focused on doing new and genuinely interesting stuff in general.
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe that's exactly like #ubuntu then?
<DocScrutinizer05>
maemo isn't a fenced protected sandbox playground for some developers
<DocScrutinizer05>
maemo is a linux distro based largely on debian and 95% of core system FOSS, and it doesn't differ much to the "ecosystem" of ubuntu or debian or gentoo or younameit
<DocScrutinizer05>
compare the maemo "shark tank2 to that of debian and ubuntu, you won't notice many differences
<paul_boddie>
Sure, go to various forums and you can feel the heat of the flaming, regardless of what it's about.
<DocScrutinizer05>
how much shark tank is even #openmoko-cdevel?
<paul_boddie>
Personally, cutting down on the forums with a high proportion of squabbling participants was one of the best things I ever did.
<paul_boddie>
You realise that you won't miss anything important or insightful anyway. A bit like quitting Facebook.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, and since everybody with a brain tends to think similar, forums need a tight moderation to keep them alive. Particularly when your community is largely based on said forum
<DocScrutinizer05>
tmo is ~90% of maemo's knowledge base
<DocScrutinizer05>
google for an arbitrary problem related to maemo OS, and odds are your first 5 hits are linking to tmo
<paul_boddie>
Anyway, I just have to wonder what the future of that place is, what with your descriptions of the politics. Again, a lot of people seemed to let Nokia "take care" of rather too much, community-wise.
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw talk.maemo.org formerly been internettablettalk.com and is the only *.m.o service never ruled or owned by Nokia
<paul_boddie>
On other matters, when will Neo900 donations be officially open again?
<DocScrutinizer05>
again, no matter if you're correct on this or not - Nokia is basically dead and not interfering with maemo anymore at all, since almost 3 years now, since 18 months for good
<DocScrutinizer05>
so watever you considered "Nokia took care too much about" for sure isn't applicable anymore
<DocScrutinizer05>
maemo (social) is an autonomous group of people, with only one administration entity and that's maemo council
<paul_boddie>
My point about Nokia is that people were comfortable while Nokia was driving everything, and that doesn't necessarily promote a healthy community.
<DocScrutinizer05>
and maemo council evidently doesn't take too much care about anything communty related
<DocScrutinizer05>
so what?
<paul_boddie>
Well, doesn't it explain the malaise you see now?
<DocScrutinizer05>
abandon it and give it the finger?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm actually almost about to do exactly that
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I don't need more explanations why maemo is what it is. I seen it becoming what it is today
<DocScrutinizer05>
and guys like Estel did a massive job to accomplish that
<DocScrutinizer05>
since he made lots of users do what you did: avoid froum
<paul_boddie>
I don't have an opinion about Maemo itself, just the community infighting.
<DocScrutinizer05>
of course only the "good" users, leaving talk.maemo.org with even higher concentration of trolls and insane fools like estel
<paul_boddie>
As I said, people don't get nasty when times are good and there's a new N-model round the corner.
Luke-Jr has quit [Excess Flood]
<DocScrutinizer05>
estel does
<DocScrutinizer05>
evidently
Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware
<paul_boddie>
I meant a new N-model from Nokia, and for free to selected "developers". I bet everyone was more cheerful then.
<DocScrutinizer05>
not estel
<paul_boddie>
I think the measure of a community is made when times aren't great and there's no supposedly benevolent corporation pouring money into it.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think that's pretty much completely irrelevant, and your focus on developer-device-program which handed out a 200..300 devices total iirc, I don't get your point on that
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw all DDP devices been loaners
<DocScrutinizer05>
nobody ever really returned them, but Nokia *could* have asked for returning them any day
<DocScrutinizer05>
and rules to evaluate who qualifies for a DDP-device are not justifying your appostrphes around "developers"
<DocScrutinizer05>
also most community members were not exactly chearful about DDP since they never even thought trying to qualify themselves as maemo developer, Most ignored the DDP and some even got envy
<DocScrutinizer05>
the latter particularly true when N950 DDP happened
<paul_boddie>
Well, I still wonder whether it really had the desired effect. I do know people who get developer devices, but they really were genuine developers. I suspect they were in a minority, though.
* DocScrutinizer05
glares at the dust covered N950 in front of him
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I dunno if it had the desired effect. Heck I don't even know what exactly been the effect *desired* by those who did the DDP
<paul_boddie>
Surely it's to get bottoms on seats and to build functionality and attractive software to get end-user bottoms on seats.
<DocScrutinizer05>
when they hoped for one app per 5 DDP devices handed out then for sure they overcommitted their goals
<DocScrutinizer05>
when it been field test of beta/pre-release versions of their OS, then damn sure they succeeded
<paul_boddie>
1 app per 5 devices? Were they lighting cigars with 100 EUR bills at Nokia Towers while claiming impending victory?
<DocScrutinizer05>
when it been "create another media hype" then also success I'd say
<DocScrutinizer05>
*shrug*
<DocScrutinizer05>
this discussion feels strangely moot
<paul_boddie>
I'm not sure about success when there were three generations of developer devices and only then did they do the N9/N900.
* DocScrutinizer05
emphasizes last post
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm for sure not up to defending every single decision Nokia management and merchandising department ever did. I think it's completely futile to even speculate
wej has joined #qi-hardware
<paul_boddie>
All I really wanted to say was that the occasionally poisonous atmosphere of your favourite forum is a product of earlier times.
<paul_boddie>
I hope Neo900 gives people something to focus on because they seem to need it.
wej_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<whitequark>
so much backlog
wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
rz2k has joined #qi-hardware
<DocScrutinizer05>
only a humble 3 screenfull
<paul_boddie>
whitequark: What happened to that language/compiler project of yours?
<paul_boddie>
DocScrutinizer05: Will you go back to taking general donations for Neo900 at some point or hope to convert most of them and then go to the next stage?
<paul_boddie>
I must admit that I've been tempted. Looking at smartphones in general is a hateful process.
<DocScrutinizer05>
the problem is: I'm *very* reluctant* to ask for, or even just accept, donations from countries/regions where we anticipate an unclear or problematic shipping situation when it comes to delivering a device
<DocScrutinizer05>
and since we haven't established any sort of list of locations where we expect to be able to ship to, this is the major blocking factor for a public invitation to donate for now
<paul_boddie>
whitequark: Is that Crystal thing (mentioned by a commenter on your blog) something like Shedskin but for Ruby?
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe I go the opposite way and offer to refund the donation when we can't ship
<paul_boddie>
I think I'd just donate and hopefully we'd be on speaking terms by the time you delivered. ;-)
<whitequark>
paul_boddie: sorta
<paul_boddie>
The Shedskin guy has done great stuff, but I'd be worried about "global type inference" in general.
<DocScrutinizer05>
paul_boddie: you're welcome to do so any time :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
please make absolutely sure to send a mail in parallel, and mention that sending mail addr in subject of your money transfer
<paul_boddie>
whitequark: Did you consider sacrificing sacred parts of Ruby to more easily achieve your goals?
<DocScrutinizer05>
twell us in that mail about your donation and what it's meant for
<wpwrak>
phew, skipping ahead:
<whitequark>
paul_boddie: that's a really abstract suggestion
<paul_boddie>
Quick, wpwrak is catching up: more content required. ;-)
<wpwrak>
paul_boddie: i think you can donate now: neo900.org/donate we just don't make much noise about it :)
<whitequark>
paul_boddie: I think, given unlimited time, I would eventually designed something very much like Rust
<paul_boddie>
whitequark: Well, in the Python world, as soon as you mention dropping any feature, everybody wails about it not being Python any more.
<whitequark>
Foundry would not have been Ruby at all
<whitequark>
in any case
<whitequark>
that became clear quite early on
<whitequark>
(neither are Crystal or Shedskin.)
<wpwrak>
hmm, vice president at court, being read what he's being charged with. already three hours passed and he's still in there. i'm very curious about his face when he comes out :)
<paul_boddie>
But do you think it's worth using a selectively trimmed back version of Ruby instead of proper Ruby, or do you think that you'll just spend a lot of energy and arrive at the same place as Rust or Java?
<whitequark>
there has never been any arguing about making a "selectively trimmed back version of Ruby"
<whitequark>
or in other words, I never really wanted to make a Ruby *subset*
<paul_boddie>
Well, what I regard as Python is something which could easily be a subset of what people insist is Python today.
<whitequark>
there's mruby, which *is* a Ruby subset. it's kind of like Lua, functionally
<whitequark>
for starters, I intended to kill dynamic typing from almost very beginning
<paul_boddie>
But then again, I've been using Python for a long time and have seen things come and go.
<whitequark>
this alone makes the language pretty far from Ruby or Python
lamrz has quit [Quit: Leaving]
omarit has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<wpwrak>
all you really need is asignment, var++; and if (var1 == var2) goto X; ;-)
wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
* whitequark
slaps wpwrak around a bit with a large trout
<whitequark>
wpwrak: actually if you want to reduce to absurd, you only need one instruction, subleq
* DocScrutinizer05
still tries to find the exact meaning of the term "speaking terms"
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: "A and B are on speaking terms" ≡ "A speaks to B"
<DocScrutinizer05>
ta
<whitequark>
"speaks" as in "A not told B he will never speak to the latter again"
<DocScrutinizer05>
cool utf-8 you got there ;-)
<whitequark>
compose key
<DocScrutinizer05>
compose what? _ = ? = - ?
<whitequark>
= _
<DocScrutinizer05>
= = ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<whitequark>
it may be a custom combination I have
<DocScrutinizer05>
my intuation suggests it's not, _ = been my first guess :-)
<whitequark>
I have a lot of stuff there, like δ Δ ∋ ∈ λ
<whitequark>
and of course ಠ_ಠ and (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
<DocScrutinizer05>
the latter comes a bit garbled here
<whitequark>
°□° are eyes and mouth. ╯╯ are the arms. ┻━┻ is the table. ︵ is "woosh"
<DocScrutinizer05>
oooooh
wej has joined #qi-hardware
<DocScrutinizer05>
I've see a bull with horns: (â¯Â°â¡Â°ï¼â¯
<whitequark>
wtf you just pasted
<DocScrutinizer05>
dang that doesn't even c&p
<whitequark>
it does for me :p
<paul_boddie>
Funny that a search for "Crystal language" gives the Wikipedia entry for David Crystal as the first hit.
* whitequark
uses konsole
<dos1>
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware
<DocScrutinizer05>
┻━┻ ︵
<DocScrutinizer05>
╯
<DocScrutinizer05>
(╯°□°）╯
<DocScrutinizer05>
weird, nfc what went wrong
<wpwrak>
hmm, there seems to be a fire somewhere nearby. firefighter trucks racing down the avenue, then turning into the neighbourhood, then shutting down the sirens somewhere in a ~100 m radius
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: well, it actually still works. from a different perspective
<wpwrak>
nothing to see, though
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: when nothing to see, it's exactly under you
<wpwrak>
anyway, it won't be where i live. that should still be too wet for burning ;-)
<dos1>
logs from http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware show it just like my client, but this one correctly interpreted that thing pasted by DocScrutinizer05 and fails at others
<dos1>
still talking about that utf8 madness :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
you prolly should've used a line tag
<whitequark>
dos1: for me, irclog.wq.org correctly interprets my and your paste
<whitequark>
but DocScrutinizer05's first attempt is garbage like in my client
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: now that's almost right, except for ಠ_ಠ
<whitequark>
it uses a Devanagari (I think?) symbol, for which you evidently don't have fonts
<whitequark>
"The unicode character “ಠ” comes from the letter “ṭha” in Kannada, one of the major Dravidian languages of India that is influenced by Sanskrit."
<DocScrutinizer05>
you're aware I see same black square all the time?
<whitequark>
yes. key word: "same"
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, I meant "same" ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
can't you read the 9 chars in it? here, count for yourself: SAME
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
IOW I have nfc what you're talking about
<DocScrutinizer05>
I can figure that emoticon would lok really cool on systems that have the needed fontset
<DocScrutinizer05>
look*
rz2k has quit []
<whitequark>
yea, most modern systems do
<eintopf>
I broke my touch digitizer of my smartphone :(
paul_boddie has quit []
<whitequark>
"Send suspicious downloaded files to Google"
<whitequark>
WTF, Chromium
<DocScrutinizer05>
chromium brwoser strongly deprecated by c't (heise) in their article about privacy on android, exactly for privacy reasons
<whitequark>
chromium on android is a very different beast
<whitequark>
on desktops it's FOSS, on android it is not (afaik)
<DocScrutinizer05>
mhm
<DocScrutinizer05>
never even looked into it
<whitequark>
at least I'm not aware of a way to build it
<whitequark>
the default Android browser is mostly fine though
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think chromium *is* the android default browser?
<larsc>
chrome is
<DocScrutinizer05>
ugh
<whitequark>
no, it is not
<whitequark>
there's AOSP browser
<whitequark>
well, maybe it is now, it wasn't ~year ago
<larsc>
(at least on my android)
<DocScrutinizer05>
chrome, chromium, wtf?
<whitequark>
chromium is FOSS, chrome is chromium + google anal probe
<DocScrutinizer05>
sounds about right ;-P
<whitequark>
chromium is generally OK in that it has all the evil stuff optional and mostly even disabled by default
<DocScrutinizer05>
I honstly can't recall if that artocle said "chrome" or "chromium"
<whitequark>
though they migrated to some homebrewn graphics toolkit (?) instead of gtk in the latest update and that doesn't respect system DPI settings
<whitequark>
ugh
<whitequark>
and XCompose is broken too
<whitequark>
fuckers
<ysionneau>
in AOSP the browser is fully open source (sounds logical, you're supposed to be able to build AOSP from scratch) ... but I don't know if it's Chromium or something else ... might be chromium indeed
<whitequark>
no, it's not related to chromium
<whitequark>
it uses system webkit (webview) with some simple interface written around it
<ysionneau>
yes ok makes sense
<DocScrutinizer05>
never heard of AOSP, and happy about it
<whitequark>
android open source project
<whitequark>
basically, the android tree released under BSD is called "AOSP"
<ysionneau>
it's the Android you can build yourself
<whitequark>
as opposed to the crap that vendors like Samsung put into phones
<DocScrutinizer05>
well...
<whitequark>
CyanogenMod = AOSP + drivers + few useful tools
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess I can't tell my gf to move ot cyanogen or ASOP
<DocScrutinizer05>
or*
<whitequark>
cyanogen is perfectly fine to run as your day-to-day firmware
<ysionneau>
well it depends on her phone
<ysionneau>
but lots of phones are supported by cyanogen
<whitequark>
it works much better than vendor firmwares, because it's not bloated by various shit that spies on you and shows you ads
<whitequark>
and forces you to use services you'd rather not even know about
<ysionneau>
but usually if you want your cyanogen to work "as well " (or in fact better) than the stock firmware, you still need some closed source blob
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, but how would I sell that to her?
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's not like I could do service on her phone on a daily basis
<whitequark>
why would you need that?
<whitequark>
just put it there and forget
<DocScrutinizer05>
I had a hard time teaching her how to do backups on her PC every now and then
<whitequark>
AOSP is not Gentoo, it's basically how Android should have always worked, which is, much better than how most phones actually work
<ysionneau>
usually cyanogen let's you customize better than stock ROM
<DocScrutinizer05>
and just getting latest Samsung firmware update installed to that tab2 been a PITA that took hours in the end
<ysionneau>
for normal users (Customers I would say) they can keep the original firmware if they don't feel they need something to be different
sb0_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05>
errr note2
<DocScrutinizer05>
?
<ysionneau>
with cyanogen your phone is usually rooted by default so you have tons of apps like firewalls, anti ads, data backup applications, VPN stuff, VOIP apps
<ysionneau>
tethering when stock rom had it disabled
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, but my GF doesn't give a F
<ysionneau>
then I guess she can stay on stock rom
<whitequark>
if she's happy with stock rom, moving to anything else is pointless
<whitequark>
clearly
<ysionneau>
if she really gives a shit about having "mostly open source ROM" then she would be interested in cyanogen
<ysionneau>
this + customizing
<whitequark>
well, I've had people thank me for 1) removing all the bloatware 2) as a result, making device more responsive
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's what she expects me to do, yes
<whitequark>
cyanogen is very noticeably faster on some devices
<DocScrutinizer05>
remove the bloatware and crap
<whitequark>
because it doesn't have all the vendor-installed background services doing some obscure pointless shit
<whitequark>
and taking up loads of RAM
<DocScrutinizer05>
speed is not an issue, phone is *always* too slow for her
<DocScrutinizer05>
even a supercomputer would be too slow for her
lamrz has joined #qi-hardware
<whitequark>
a supercomputer doesn't necessarily have low latency, it rather has high throughput
* DocScrutinizer05
calls gf to do tough interrogation on when been last time she connected note2 to her laptop and started the PC-software to allow it making a backup
<DocScrutinizer05>
she broke the hooker800 I gave to her, and all her contacts lost since whe never did any backup
<DocScrutinizer05>
then she got the Note2
<DocScrutinizer05>
I still don't buy the "I accidentally dropped it" - I bet she got angry and bashed it into the wall ;-P
<whitequark>
oooh, bashing a phone into the wall
<whitequark>
how I love that
<DocScrutinizer05>
harly anything else you could do with a windows phone
<DocScrutinizer05>
hardly*
<whitequark>
wtf is c-ts?
<whitequark>
capacitive touchscreen?
<DocScrutinizer05>
capacitive ts
<dos1>
yup
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm, only 3.9°C higher outside, maybe time to finally open the windows
<whitequark>
it's never time to open Windows
<DocScrutinizer05>
OpenWindows? BWAHAHAHA
lamrz_ has joined #qi-hardware
lamrz_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
kristianpaul has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware
kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware
wolfspra1l has joined #qi-hardware
wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
<wpwrak>
kewl. after a lunch break of a few minutes, the vice president continues to be grilled in court. that's now more than five hours minus the lunch break ("of a few minutes")
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: the longer this takes, the more likely nobody is willing to actually decide on it. In the end he will get away with it since court boggles from complexity of the case
tumdedum has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
souser has joined #qi-hardware
souser has left #qi-hardware [#qi-hardware]
<wpwrak>
oh no, that's how it works here. anything in justice takes several years. for example, the government didn't adjust pensions for inflation. so retirees started lawsuits. eventually, the building that held the document was closed because it was at risk of collapsing under the sheer weight of the documents.
<wpwrak>
and of course, the government is playing on the old people to die before their case it settled.
mth has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
mth has joined #qi-hardware
jekhor has joined #qi-hardware
jekhor_ has joined #qi-hardware
jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<wpwrak>
news from the vice president. now, after being grilled by the judge for six hours, he's about to leave the building. takes him quite a while, it seem. what's the time it typically takes for the cocaine to kick in and for you to feel on top of the world again ? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd guess that depends on a huge number of parameters
<DocScrutinizer05>
usually the placebo effect kicks in instantly
<wpwrak>
hehe :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw it seems this instant set-on time of placebo effect gets massively ignored in efficiency studies for pharmaceuticals. It would be a really easy way to tell apart the placebo effects from real pharmaceutical effects
jekhor_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's really amazing and almost a miracle. Pharmacological scientists tests stuff like: provide immune suppressor (after transplantation) as a juice with a very typical unusual aroma. After only a few days, remove the suppressor substance and provide placebo juice of same taste. Tests show it has identical immune system suppressing properties like the original medication, though without the side effects
<whitequark>
source?
<DocScrutinizer05>
TV
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry
<whitequark>
I don't know if your TV is like ours, but ours frequently touts stuff like urinotherapy as something that actually works
<whitequark>
I mean, they unironically show people that say "omg I drank piss for a month and my cancer was cured"
* whitequark
shrugs
<whitequark>
I severely doubt the correctness of your claim; if you really want to see if it's true, pubmed probably has an entry.
<DocScrutinizer05>
nope, ours isn't like that. When they interview a scientists Maier from university XY then you usually can assume that's not made up by TV, and you'd hope it's also not made up by the professor
<whitequark>
still, unless there is a publication in something peer-reviewed, the claim is simply garbage
<whitequark>
and if there is a publication, it *may* not be garbage, but also may be
<DocScrutinizer05>
what you mean is called commercials here. Or to be found in commercial TV channels like RTL
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm never watching those for reality stuff, only to watch NCIS etc
<whitequark>
in medicine, I wouldn't look at anything less than a decently sized meta-analysis, simply because I don't have the expertise to assess the claim properly
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, whatever works for you
<DocScrutinizer05>
probably in your country with your TV it's the correct approach like "it's been told in TV, so it must be a lie"
<whitequark>
that's one factor
<DocScrutinizer05>
and yes, I of course know about scientists who make up stuff to get more funds
<whitequark>
still, a claim of a single researcher, even more so an *outlandish* claim, to which the media is biased, should be treated with doubt
<whitequark>
who said about making stuff up? a honest mistake.
<whitequark>
or wishful thinking because of an immense pressure to release a paper
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, possible. But then, it's pretty much in line with expectations
<whitequark>
if you actually read the publication itself, very often you can see that it, for example, has 15 data points, the prediction barely fits, and there's no mechanism that would explain the observed effect
<whitequark>
which means that they either cherry-picked the data or just were lucky. it's more or less normal, but it's also the reason you don't treat single publications as some kind of gospel. you look at them in aggregate
<DocScrutinizer05>
you treat some of my story telling like a gospel
<whitequark>
you tell it very much like gospel
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm pretty much aware of all you quoted
<DocScrutinizer05>
aha
<DocScrutinizer05>
while you have a "as far as I know" in *every* sentence, right? ;-)
<whitequark>
I try to abstain from making outlandish claims without that, and if I do, slap me silly, because I shouldn't
<DocScrutinizer05>
define outlandish please
<whitequark>
"fact: pharma companies ignore trivial properties of placebo effect that even an EE knows"
<whitequark>
welp, maybe I should just mentally /ignore everything you say not about EE (and adjacent areas) :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
when i quote one detail from a report about placebos, I don't think I have to assume this single one must be incorrect because it sounds too strange to some guy in Moskow. When it is in line with all other results of similar resp related tests, about efficiency of analgetica, even depending on the color of the pill, about placebo effects of fake analgetica even tested by EEG and PET, and by studies about homoepatics which in same
<DocScrutinizer05>
report been considered a special form of placebo, then I dunno...
<DocScrutinizer05>
fact: pharma companies have a vital interest to ignore that well known fact
<DocScrutinizer05>
but yeah, please ignore anything I say, I'm bored by your criticism
<whitequark>
fact: TV companies have a vested interest in feeding you whatever bullshit makes you watch more ads
<DocScrutinizer05>
you're telling brown stnking bullshit, in germany we have 2 channels that are NOT operated by any sort of company, and I told you I only watch those two for any sort of fact gathering
<DocScrutinizer05>
but meh, how should you even know about such facts
<DocScrutinizer05>
please do me a favor and /ignore
<DocScrutinizer05>
oh, and yes, going by the principles of immune system most susceptible to controlling effects of psyche/subconscious aka placebo effect, actually drinking urine _might_ indeed yield positive effects as long as those doing it believe it will cure them. It is sufficiently intrusive/invasive/disgusting to cause massive placebo effects
wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware
<DocScrutinizer05>
IOW to do it you must really really believe it will help you, and that conviction alone is already a good therapeutic for cancer
<DocScrutinizer05>
^^^THIS *is* proven by several studies
<whitequark>
source?
<whitequark>
I'd be really interested in reading that.
wolfspra1l has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorces fro depression causing weak immune response? source for people more often dying from cancer when they have no perspective in life, and most healings being accompanied by the patient changing his life and avoiding stress? Go to any arbitrary oncologist and ask him for sources, when you can't find your own evidence in your daily life
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm fed up with having to cite .gov texts to prove my statements. Nevermind
<whitequark>
better just make claims based on thin air!
<DocScrutinizer05>
beter just /ignore DocScrutinizer05
<DocScrutinizer05>
my thin air is 1000 times thicker than your bitching
<DocScrutinizer05>
your studies you dug up are pretty much supporting every single point I made. Thanks a lot for that, no take your thin air bashing and eat it!
<DocScrutinizer05>
now*
<DocScrutinizer05>
just I don't need friggin studies to know, I witnessed that stuff myself in my immediate kin, and also heard it from several doctors since decades. Next time you ask "which study is that?" I will ask +you* for a study proving I'm wrong
<DocScrutinizer05>
wait, no. won't happen since you ignore me now, and same applies to me for any questions like this from your side
<DocScrutinizer05>
ETX
<wpwrak>
hmm, vice prez finally left the courthouse at 20:30. seemed relaxed and in a condition to talk coherently. damn, i was so hoping to find him nervous and tired.
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: you really hoped for that? you're dreaming, he slept it away
<DocScrutinizer05>
the time it took him to come out was for waking up