<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/lang.l: require all commands followed by file name to end with whitespace (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/096b91e
<whitequark>
how do these people come to the channel?..
<wpwrak>
irc --list-channels | grep -i hardware
<DocScrutinizer05>
did I miss something?
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, "whice psu is better"
<DocScrutinizer05>
exactly what wpwrak said
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: btw kudos for the PCB shaping :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
you already mentioned the root question "can you use it?"
<DocScrutinizer05>
rather " like to know if this is useful for you"
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<DocScrutinizer05>
seems DXF is a format eagle could import
<wpwrak>
i hope he can handle gerber :) i don't know dxf. i could offer gnuplot, though. that's the easiest of them all :)
<whitequark>
dxf, not really
<whitequark>
importing into eagle is a pain overall
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: how would you import a PCB shape to eagle?
<DocScrutinizer05>
tbh I don't even understand how the shape is defined inside eagle
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I mean, I can draw wires and arcs, but how's that becoming the outer edges of the allowed PCB area for eagle?
<DocScrutinizer05>
simply by traces not being allowed to cross wires, arcs etc?
<DocScrutinizer05>
or even simpler by traces only being allowed on background color? then we could import bmp as well prolly
<whitequark>
um, eagle does not have an allowed PCB area.
<whitequark>
when you export it or process it into gerber, it just uses the widest extent of anything on the board
<whitequark>
there's no "background color" and the traces can intersect if you so desire
<whitequark>
if you mean the autorouter, i think you need to define corresponding keepout areas to make it stay clear.
<DocScrutinizer05>
from eagle "help": >> ==Platinenumrisse und Plazierung festlegen== Gegebenenfalls die Leerplatine in Größe und Form verändern (MOVE, SPLIT).<<
<wpwrak>
that sounds quite normal. e.g., in kicad, you have a specific layer for the board outline. eagle must have something very similar.
<whitequark>
i don't speak german
<wpwrak>
whitequark: weren't you learning that weird language ? :)
<whitequark>
i kinda skipped on it
<whitequark>
anyway, used GT
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: I guess "layer" is the key word
<whitequark>
eagle does have an outline layer and it has a rectangle by default there
<whitequark>
the layer doesn't affect anything at all
<whitequark>
some board houses like oshpark use it internally
<whitequark>
i don't think eagle itself cares
<wpwrak>
whitequark: you'll be sorry for it when those alternate histories come true :) well, or perhaps for skipping french. can't be so sure about which one will win.
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, the autorouter must have an idea of where the PCB ends, no?
<wpwrak>
there must be a cut, too .. :)
<whitequark>
hm, not sure
<whitequark>
ah, yes, the help says autorouter also respects
<whitequark>
that
<wpwrak>
the pcb outline is the only thing that defines the pcb outline. no traces, no pads, etc. so it must be there, somehow :)
<whitequark>
i don't use autorouter, as it's evident
<DocScrutinizer05>
so it's based on "pixels" in PCB outline layer?
<whitequark>
lines
<whitequark>
it's all vector
<wpwrak>
in kicad, that's just a drawing. lines and arcs
<DocScrutinizer05>
ok
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, like in eagle
<DocScrutinizer05>
I picked the lines + arcs idea for my example of above from another board that works
<DocScrutinizer05>
eagle help is for the bin
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-S
<wpwrak>
if all else fails, i just look things up in the source ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: we need to provide a way to actually import the stuff into eagle, otherwise it will again be "please send pencil sketch on napkin"
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, cool for inkscape and SVG, not cool for eagle
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm pretty sure wpwrak will only shrug about converting whatever thin red line in whatever format he got now, into a loooong sequence of adjacent (staight) WIRE commands aproximating the red line's shape for arbitrary precision
<DocScrutinizer05>
I bet it's not even a question whether or not the length of each vector will be maximized
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually the latter is extremely simple: when (x,y) == (x[-1],y[-1]) * n, simply replace old (x[-1],y[-1]) by new (x,y)
<DocScrutinizer05>
err sorry, of course polar coords apply here
<DocScrutinizer05>
so when (x,y) - (x[-1],y[-1]) == ( (x[-1],y[-1]) - (x[-2],y[-2]) ) * n, simply replace old (x[-1],y[-1]) by new (x,y)
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: ((scripts)) actually that's *exactly* what I suggested as "interchangeable eagle format" for Neo900 project
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: you know there are ULPs that can export whole eagle projects as a single huge script
<whitequark>
yes
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<DocScrutinizer05>
alas these ULP are a tad... bitrotten, would need some revisiting to add a few lacking (new?) command syntax details of eagle6
<DocScrutinizer05>
and *really* great would be to directly access and read out the undo/redo buffer - I could bet on it containing complete plaintext commands. What a nice session log as well as obviously also a script
<whitequark>
unlikely plaintext
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm, dunno
<whitequark>
since you can't easily revert them
<whitequark>
not much point in reparsing and such
<DocScrutinizer05>
aah right
<DocScrutinizer05>
nm
<whitequark>
note that solvespace does something very similar
<whitequark>
its savefiles are "forth" programs that recreate the environment from scratch
<whitequark>
doesn't quite map to an undo/redo buffer--it just copies the entire savefile (in-memory) when you do anything
<whitequark>
since it's small
<whitequark>
but it's still neat
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, I'm just musing about a theoretical approach: save to .brd/.sh after each single command, do diffs
<whitequark>
that'd work. but what for?
<DocScrutinizer05>
.sch
<DocScrutinizer05>
for "patches"
<DocScrutinizer05>
solving the "send a pencil sketch on a napkin please" problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: OOOPS we need BOB too :-o
<DocScrutinizer05>
not to same precision, but anyway we need some 3rd PCB shape
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<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: (b-splines) no, it's all list line segments. some 10+ k of them ;-) (either connected or unconnected, depending on where in the process you are)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
10+k ? sounds like it could use some "smoothing"
<DocScrutinizer05>
what do you think about providing a "script" that eagle could readily run?
<DocScrutinizer05>
(I guess converting DXF to a script is what needs to get done anyway)
<wpwrak>
dxf is pure horror. my "native" format is gnuplot. plot "foo.gp" with lines
<wpwrak>
but i suspect that nik would not want to use a generated outline directly anyway, but rather adjust his existing design with it. also because some features depend on component shapes, which in some cases will be different anyway
<wpwrak>
also, he may have item at a higher layer of abstracion there. arcs, etc.
<wpwrak>
and anyway, what is this doing on #qi-hw ? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
there are no component dependant shapes. And I'd prefer the thing getting defined without manual tweaking
<DocScrutinizer05>
(qi) I discussed stuff with whitequark
<DocScrutinizer05>
when the DXF-whatever gets used to do manual shape edits then we have exactly same unfortunate situation we already got
<DocScrutinizer05>
neglecting details since they are "too complicated" and supposedly "not needed" and adjusting dimensions to own expectations
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't care when instead of arcs a 3000 straight vectors approximate a curve
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<DocScrutinizer05>
for the approximation I _know_ about how exact it is. Fitting an arc manually to match whatever mask/template will rsult in arbitrary errors again
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly I gotta do it myself
<DocScrutinizer05>
convert to a script and import to eagle, that is
<whitequark>
you can fit an arc to the same error as those 3000 straight segments
<whitequark>
and it's not going to make eagle grind to a halt
<wpwrak>
manual fitting is often remarkably accurate, especially if you have zoom :) also, you can deliberately introduce small deviations, e.g., to fit other patterns you need to consider (grid or such)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: isn't dxf a fairly simple text based format?
<whitequark>
or was that dwg?
<whitequark>
i looked at export code for some of those and it was pretty trivial
<wpwrak>
text-based but rather chaotic. not in the xml sense but rather in the "too many punch cards" sense
<wpwrak>
and autocad were busy augmenting it. so the first step would be to find out which of those hundreds of possible commands you really need
<whitequark>
ah, right
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<DocScrutinizer51>
hi wolfspraul :)
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