lexi-lambda changed the topic of #racket to: Racket v7.1 has been released: http://blog.racket-lang.org/2018/10/racket-v7-1.html -- Racket -- https://racket-lang.org -- https://pkgs.racket-lang.org -- Paste at http://pasterack.org
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<aidalgol> Wikipedia is letting me down here: is Brainfuck a simplified form of the Turing machine, or not quite?
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<aidalgol> (Resend because of network issues and IRC's lack of an ACK): Wikipedia is letting me down here: is Brainfuck a simplified form of the Turing machine, or not quite?
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<rlavery> I wouldn't say it's simpler than a Turing machine, but I don't think it provides any useful abstractions that a Turing machine does not.
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<pierpal> how could a turing machine be simplified! it's the bottom of the bottom of computing. If it could be simplified we'd be using that, instead.
<aidalgol> pierpal: There are many models of computation, all of which are equivalent, but some are easier to comprehend than others.
<aidalgol> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_of_computation for the most well-known ones.
<rlavery> Right, but the hill pierpal and I will die on is the word "simpler."
<rlavery> Turing machines can't be simplified without making them not be Turing machines anymore.
<rlavery> Brainfuck doesn't provide most things that programmers are used to, but it's not simpler than the model of computation.
<aidalgol> I guess by "simpler" I mean in the formal definition.
<rlavery> Me too.
<aidalgol> Because I did not study all this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_machine when I studied register machines in 1st-year math.
<pierpal> hmmm
<pierpal> register machines are miles higher level than TMs
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<rlavery> I wish I'd known make-predicate doesn't work for function types before I refactored around a particular function type. d'oh
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<rain1> how do i get stack and queue in racket?
<aidalgol> rain1: Queue is in the data lib https://docs.racket-lang.org/data/Imperative_Queues.html?q=queue and I would just use a list as a stack.
<rain1> thanks
<rain1> and how do i return from a for loop?
<rain1> when I find the value i waned
<rain1> oh I think i can try #:break
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<rain1> hm it doesn't give me a result value
<rain1> ok for/first works
<aidalgol> Not sure about, that, sorry.
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<dzoe> Would you put HTDP and SICP in recommended literature for students of "Algorithms and Data Structures" taught in Clojure?
<dzoe> I personally have some reservations about Clojure, but I am really happy I can teach ADS at least in something LISPy and not in javascript or python as it used to be at the college. And I want to direct the students towards some scheme.
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<dTal> dzoe: sure, why not? It's only recommended literature, some students might get some value out of them
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<bremner> can someone with locale zh_CN.UTF-8 installed (or willing to install it) see if file->install-package works in DrRacket? I'm trying to decide if this error is debian specific
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<nisstyre> dzoe: htdp is for people who've never programmed before
<nisstyre> maybe The X Schemer series of books would be better
<nisstyre> unless the class is actually a 101 intro class, then sure use htdp
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<rlavery> Is it best practice to alphabetize your function definitions? Or does one usually just arrange them in a logical-feeling way?
<rain1> do not alphabetize
<rlavery> That makes me feel a little better., thanks.
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<aidalgol> dzoe: How much of SICP would still work in Clojure, given that the language does away with cons cells?
<aidalgol> rlavery: Yeah, group them by use, and if you find yourself starting to have large, separate groups in the same file, time to split that out into separate modules!
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