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<injekt>
moin
<lianj>
hoi
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<badeball>
uhm, I'm completely blank all of a sudden. how do one usually show print output within code? like 'print "Hello world!" # $ Hello world!', except that prompt indicates something entirely different.
<apeiros_>
p
<apeiros_>
or pp
<apeiros_>
pp needs a require 'pp' first
<judofyr>
badeball: `p "Hello world"` for inspecting/debugging. `puts "Hello world"` for printing a line
<judofyr>
pp for even prettier inpspecting
<judofyr>
ppp for prettiest! (j/k)
<badeball>
I think I might not be formulating my question correctly. if you look at this gist: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/5212073. I used '->' to show what would be outputted, allowing the user to just look at the example without needing to actually run it.
<yorickpeterse>
what's the canonical Ruby way of checking if there's something in STDIN?
<yorickpeterse>
STDIN.eof? blocks until it actually gets something
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<appu_>
Hey guys.
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<appu_>
I have monekypatched Hash class like
<appu_>
class Hash
<appu_>
alias_method :_initialize, :initialize
<appu_>
def initialize
<appu_>
puts 'In my hash class'
<appu_>
_initialize
<appu_>
end
<appu_>
end
<appu_>
Now in rib, when I do Hash,new, my class is used. But for something like a = {} it never calls the initialize method which I have
<appu_>
why is this not working?
<judofyr>
appu_: because that won't call #initialize
<judofyr>
appu_: there's no guarantee that #initialize will be called for other than .new
<appu_>
yeah. but isn't initialize a constructor?
<appu_>
judofyr: so there is no way to have a constructor?
<judofyr>
appu_: no
<judofyr>
appu_: there's also .allocate which doesn't invoke #initialize: class Foo; end; Foo.allocate
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<judofyr>
appu_: but in general, objects can be constructed in several ways (behind the scenes in a C-extension; by the Ruby runtime; by calling .allocate or .new)
<judofyr>
there's no way to hook into tat
<judofyr>
that*
<appu_>
judofyr: alright. how about trapping allocate and initialize?
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<judofyr>
appu_: please don't :)
<appu_>
judofyr: :)
<judofyr>
appu_: there will *always* be ways to avoid it, and it's not worth the hassle :)
<judofyr>
appu_: e.g: Class.instance_method(:allocate).bind(Hash).call will invoke the Class#allocate method without looking it up in Hash
<appu_>
judofyr: I understand. I was trying to build a little DSL where user has to just say 'key' => 'value'. If I could trap ruby constructing hash for this expression, I can avoid asking them to write something like - my function 'key' => 'value'
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<cHarNe2>
hi guys, im having issues installing gems on my RPi running archlinux, says im missing stuff like ssl and ffi. Where should i start investigating?
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<appu_>
cHarNe2: gem install ffi ?
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<cHarNe2>
ffi (libffi) comes from the os
<cHarNe2>
and i got that installed
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<cHarNe2>
but ill try
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<judofyr>
cHarNe2: your Ruby-version needs to be compiled with OpenSSL if you want SSL-support. not sure how it's done in Arch.
<judofyr>
cHarNe2: there might be a package for it
<cHarNe2>
same, says im missing ffi.h
<appu_>
cHarNe2: libffi will be there. But you need the ruby wrapper to get it working.
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<cHarNe2>
judofyr: i think it is, i dont see why it would be different on the arm-distro :S
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<cHarNe2>
judofyr: require "openssl" in irb works just fine. Tho that might not me an indication of it being supported?
<judofyr>
cHarNe2: well, then it should be fine, yes
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<charliesome>
howdy all
<judofyr>
howdy handsome
<charliesome>
don't you hate it when you decide "tonight i'm going to dive into some awesome code" and then you get sidetracked
<charliesome>
and then it's 11pm and you've done nothing
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<judofyr>
charliesome: ikr
<cHarNe2>
charliesome: ye, i know.. starting programming what you should, ending up making something else.. and then you get hungry and realize that all stores are closed..
<charliesome>
cHarNe2: in my case it was spending my entire evening fixing a broken combination of windows xp, itunes and an iphone for a family member
<cHarNe2>
i'v stop helping ppl with crapple-ware
<charliesome>
i love me my crapple
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<apeiros_>
created with byteslice, it says encoding is valid. created as a literal it is not. binary comparison shows the string is identical. seems to me like it copied over some flag or somesuch.
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<lolzie>
Hi. I have a class, which has a variable I have used attr_accessor for. On setting the variable now, I wish there to be a side effect.
<lolzie>
Should I retain the attr_accessor and add var=() ? Or change that to attr_reader
<lolzie>
I'm not sure what tends to be the best practice. attr_reader seems best as minimal, but I don't know if it gives the wrong idea about the variable's use (externally)
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<Kero>
when you add var=(), the old one (as defined by attr_accessor) is overridden
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* Kero
would write attr_reader and def var= immediately next to each other, so the chance at confusion is minimal
<judofyr>
lolzie: `ruby -w` will complain if you use attr_accessor and overwrite the method later
<lolzie>
Makes sense, thanks guys
<andrewvos>
RUBYYYYY DRAMMMMAAAAA
<andrewvos>
Oh wait this is Python
<andrewvos>
redacted ^
<Kero>
"redacted python" ?
<yorickpeterse>
andrewvos: of course nobody makes fun of it when it's not Ruby
<imperator>
andrewvos, what's the latest ruby drama?
<andrewvos>
imperator: Not sure - I'm referring to some PyCon drama actually
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<imperator>
oh, what's the drama there?
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<andrewvos>
Some guys were being dicks at the conference
<andrewvos>
Telling possibly sexist jokes
<lolzie>
classa.var = "value" # the side effect of my var=() requires another value to be passed to it. Should I instead have a setVar("value", otherObj) ?
<andrewvos>
So some girl took a picture of them and tweeted it
<andrewvos>
And I think the one guy got fired
<breakingthings>
Both did, I believe.
<breakingthings>
Spiraled quite out of hand because of her use of twitter
<breakingthings>
Now people are threatening her life
<andrewvos>
And now the "python community", whoever that is, seems to be up in arms.
<andrewvos>
Well, as much in arms as people on twitter can be.
<imperator>
threatening her life? for fuck's sake people
<andrewvos>
breakingthings: You know the fucked up thing is those people are most likely adults. If it was some thirteen year old, then yeah, probably normal. But adults? What the fuck.
<breakingthings>
Yeah, it's a bunch of crazed /b/tards who escaped the confines of to twitter.
<breakingthings>
andrewvos: most of them are ^
<breakingthings>
ie, dumb teenagers asking for trouble.
<andrewvos>
breakingthings: I doubt it. These are probably people from the python community
<breakingthings>
Nope.
<andrewvos>
I mean why would teenagers give a shit about this?
<breakingthings>
4chan has threads on it.
<andrewvos>
How would they even know?
<breakingthings>
/b/ and /pol/itics
<andrewvos>
Oh.
* imperator
proposes Old Ruby, a conference where only people over 40 are allowed
<imperator>
it's like Old Spice, but better
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<breakingthings>
because 4chan loves being sexist
<andrewvos>
imperator: Hey I'm 29, and very civil.
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<andrewvos>
Well okay I take that back
<imperator>
Ye Olde Ruby Conference
<breakingthings>
imperator: can I pretend to be 40
<zzak>
i reported one of the users, but twitter said they already deleted their account
<breakingthings>
there are quite a few being reported
<breakingthings>
One posted her address and some gore.
<imperator>
breakingthings, hm, you'll have to buy a sports car first, at a minimum
<zzak>
im pretty sure thats illegal
<breakingthings>
zzak: threats against someone's life are.
<zzak>
what is it, intent or something?
<zzak>
been a while since i watched law and order
<breakingthings>
but, the people in question aren't necessarily in countries that have the same laws
<imperator>
yep, it's illegal
* breakingthings
shrugs
<breakingthings>
It's illegal, that much I know. I can't walk up to you and say "I'm going to shoot you in the head"
<imperator>
i'd just report said tweets to the person's employer
<breakingthings>
if you felt in fear for your life for it
<breakingthings>
you could report it
<breakingthings>
again, most of the numbskulls aren't employed
<zzak>
a lot of them were proxy accounts
<andrewvos>
They're fake accounts
<breakingthings>
^
<breakingthings>
that too
<imperator>
wow
<zzak>
that should be against twitters ToS right?
<breakingthings>
yes
<imperator>
one would think so
<breakingthings>
they remove the accounts
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<breakingthings>
but they have strict policy
<zzak>
they should be able to retrieve login information and report them to the police or whatever
<breakingthings>
can only follow through on reports if the victim or victim's guardians confirm it, apparently
<zzak>
hm
<breakingthings>
could, though I would bank on a large number of them being spam accounts with anonymous IPs
<zzak>
next they will make you confirm via cell phone
<zzak>
theres too much spam on there as it is
<srbaker>
those are called Smalltalk conferences. :)
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<zzak>
Bearded Ruby Conf
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<zzak>
that would go over well
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<Kero>
bearded? that's, um, focussing one gender too few...
<imperator>
god DAMMIT i didn't win the lottery again
<breakingthings>
quite sad that all this controversy over the pycon event started because of her use of twitter over a more private contact to pycon staff
<zzak>
Kero: it was a joke
<imperator>
zzak, hence "Ye Olde Ruby Conference"
<srbaker>
heh
<imperator>
much more inclusive ;)
<Kero>
oh, I know, but given the context not really funny (to me)
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<zzak>
yeah, it was insensitive, im sorry
<imperator>
i wonder if that would work, or if the youngins would freak out
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<antbody>
'ye olde ruby' sounds like a kickass drink
<ddd>
i think the ruby community is getting way too over-focused on this gender stuff. yes, both sides are making commentaries that shouldn't be made, but to say that the ruby community isn't inclusive of females is not true.
<antbody>
something you drink then wakeup one month later in siperia
<ddd>
the field itself has been predominantly male, yes. but there are *quite* a few female programmers. (hell my java class alone is probably 3/4 female, admittedly different from when I went to college originally when I was 21)
<srbaker>
ddd: it's ebbs and flows. in the 70s it was a predominantly female industry.
<ddd>
its the idiots amongst us making sexist comments (on BOTH sides of the fence) causing the issues these days, as I see it.
<zzak>
Kero: im dumb :(
* Kero
used to work for a dept with 80 devs, 1 female. such a shame. not atypical in my country, afaik.
<Kero>
zzak: it's quite alright :)
<srbaker>
ddd: there's no such thing as women being sexist. sexism can only be *against* women, otherwise it's not sexist.
<srbaker>
that's what i learned on twitter last night
<srbaker>
when women are sexist, it's called "being corrective".
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<imperator>
hammer, ready to drop
<zzak>
lets just not be offensive to anyone, race, gender, ethnicity, or otherwise
<antbody>
stop, hammer time
<srbaker>
zzak: agree.
<andrewvos>
what about trekkies?
* imperator
looks around.....you, you and YOU.....i'm watching you
* realDAB
quakes
<zzak>
andrewvos: "otherwise"
<zzak>
and we all make mistakes, i just did it, so im sorry, and if someone calls you out just apologize
<imperator>
trekkies, no problem, but star wars or lotr nerds....SCUM
<realDAB>
i wonder whether i'm still the owner of this channel, now that my nick has been usurped
<imperator>
realDAB, can you op yourself?
<realDAB>
imperator: no
<realDAB>
imperator: i don't think the system has any idea i'm the same as the old dblack
* imperator
doesn't remember how to check a channel's owner
<realDAB>
what i really wonder is whether the new dblack owns this channel and doesn't know it….
<imperator>
realDAB, unless you linked the accounts, i wouldn't think so
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<srbaker>
realDAB: are you not able to tell nickserv to kill the other dblack?
* Kero
renewed his account a while ago, definitely lost ownership of a channel (unimportant channel)
<Kero>
renew == request nick being dropped & register it afresh
<realDAB>
srbaker: he took advantage of a lengthy absence on my part to convince the admins to release my nick, and then he registered it to himself
<zzak>
08:31 -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Last addr : dblack@nat/redhat/session
<zzak>
08:31 -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Last seen : now
<andrewvos>
realDAB: How did you lose your account?
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<zzak>
at least he's using it, i guess
<zzak>
he or she
<zzak>
could be daniel black, or deb black
<realDAB>
andrewvos: see about 10 lines above
<realDAB>
zzak: for some reason i came away from my pm chat with him thinking it was a him, but i'm not actually sure i had any evidence to go on now that i think of it
<andrewvos>
realDAB: ah!
<breakingthings>
realDAB: tried talking to network opers about re-instating a new nick as chan op?
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<realDAB>
breakingthings: no, not yet
<andrewvos>
realDAB: So someone else owns this channel now?
<breakingthings>
k
<realDAB>
andrewvos: i'm not sure.
<breakingthings>
it's possible but I would hope they're recorded as separately existing accounts
* breakingthings
doesn't really know about ircds, though
<Kero>
founder of #ruby-lang is one drbrain
<breakingthings>
magick
<realDAB>
Kero: yes, i was never the founder, but i was the owner/registrant/whatever
<realDAB>
Kero: hi, btw :-)
<Kero>
hi!
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<Kero>
good to see you here; am following you on twitter, so have some idea of what you are up to :)
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<Kero>
then perhaps talking to drbrain is enough. Otherwise staff can probably help, esp. if other people confirm who you are.
<Kero>
they were helpful when I re-registered my nick; but also very strict in following the freenode rules.
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<realDAB>
Kero: what's you're twitter name?
<realDAB>
s/you're/your/
<realDAB>
(blush)
* realDAB
is becoming slipshod in his old age
<realDAB>
has anyone here successfully used refinements in ruby 2?
<Kero>
realDAB: keroami
<Kero>
there used to be a time when "kero" was free whenever I created an account. Those times are long gone...
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<realDAB>
Kero: imagine my frustration knowing that this is the use being made of 'dblack' on twitter: https://twitter.com/dblack
<srbaker>
realDAB: you got a tan and look extra cool!
<srbaker>
nice shades
<realDAB>
srbaker: :-)
<Kero>
at least he's not yelling all the time
<realDAB>
and i shed about 28 years
<zzak>
nearly 6 years ago
<srbaker>
that's the ruby. ruby makes you young and foolish
<zzak>
i thought twitter released accounts that were unused :/
<zzak>
5 years ago someone snagged @zzak and hasnt used it since
<Kero>
those people should sell^H^H^H^H give their account to Real Owners (TM)
<realDAB>
hmmm, who do i know at twitter these days?
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<breakingthings>
Kero: i'm sorry that your twitter account name has been stolen from you by a french call of duty player
<breakingthings>
we're here for you, brother
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<judofyr>
are you still breakingthings? you're a really persistent guy(?), y'know?
<yorickpeterse>
he broke Kero's heart
<breakingthings>
judofyr: I break lots of things
<breakingthings>
like
* breakingthings
puts on sunglasses
<breakingthings>
the rules
<yorickpeterse>
YEEEAAAAAHHHHH
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<yorickpeterse>
seems like you also broke the conversation
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<breakingthings>
yep
<breakingthings>
s'what I'm good at
<breakingthings>
I'm also breaking the silence, so there's that
<yorickpeterse>
sounds like a bad rock song
<breakingthings>
I think you mean emo song
<yorickpeterse>
or maybe a new Justin bieber song
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<imperator>
there's a new justin bieber song? where?!?!
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<yorickpeterse>
Somewhere between hell and purgatory
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<yorickpeterse>
probably next to a pile of horse meat
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<imperator>
he's british then?
* imperator
never knew
<yorickpeterse>
nfi
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<imperator>
Nielsen Food Index? Net Farm Income?
* imperator
doesn't know "nfi"
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<yorickpeterse>
Jesus, apparently people actually use my FFI binding to aspell
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<imperator>
andrewvos, i think it was reaching "libel" stage....whole thing is quite ugly
<srbaker>
NICE
<yorickpeterse>
wait what happened?
<imperator>
more pycon fallout
<andrewvos>
yorickpeterse: The girl who complained about the sexism at PyCon got fired by SendGrid.
<yorickpeterse>
wat
<yorickpeterse>
What the fuck?
<yorickpeterse>
I feel I'm missing context here, because that seems like a very, very bad thing to do
<andrewvos>
Everybody is basically just crazy in America.
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<imperator>
that's it, i'm moving to the netherlands!
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<yorickpeterse>
No seriously, somebody clarify
<yorickpeterse>
Woman complains about sexism, gets fired
<yorickpeterse>
This is ok?
<zzak>
that is messed up
<yorickpeterse>
I mean, I read something about dongle jokes but didn't really follow it
<imperator>
i think it's because 2 guys she complained about got fired
<yorickpeterse>
since I couldn't really find out what jokes were made exactly
* imperator
is guessing here
<zzak>
yeah i dont think anyone here has the full story
<srbaker>
andrewvos: it wasn't sexism.
<srbaker>
andrewvos: it was immaturity.
<yorickpeterse>
imperator: regardless, Sendgrid basically just opened a whole hole of shit
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<imperator>
and a libel lawsuit was probably headed towards sendgrid's way
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<yorickpeterse>
wait wait, a lawsuit?
<srbaker>
yorickpeterse: clarification: there was no sexism. there was immaturity.
<yorickpeterse>
Hmpf, usually there's some Twitter like storyboard for this stuff, better find it
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<yorickpeterse>
srbaker: what exactly happened?
<andrewvos>
yorickpeterse: If you look at her tweets, the responses are quite shocking. Grown men.
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<srbaker>
yorickpeterse: she complained about two comments, claiming sexism. one comment was later found out to be fabricated, the other was clearly not sexism (it was extremely immature). in her complaint, she posted a picture of the guys she was complaining against. one of them lost his job
<yorickpeterse>
andrewvos: well, that doesn't surprise me. After all, a lot of people in IT are sadly dicks (no literal pun intended)
<breakingthings>
yorickpeterse: "opened a whole hole of shit"
<breakingthings>
that's already open
<yorickpeterse>
srbaker: thanks
<yorickpeterse>
breakingthings: fine, a bigger one
<breakingthings>
pissing into an ocean of piss
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<srbaker>
i'm definitely moving to the netherlands at some point. but i already live in a mostly reasonable country. :P
<yorickpeterse>
> In fact, the next day she made a phallus joke herself (http://imgur.com/7XGY8wB). This suggests that her motivations may be questionable.
<yorickpeterse>
welp
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<yorickpeterse>
imperator: srbaker: please don't become the stereotypical bonghead
<yorickpeterse>
we already have enough of those
<imperator>
maybe we should just talk about something else
* yorickpeterse
looks at r0bglees0n
<imperator>
yorickpeterse, never got into it much myself
<imperator>
tried it a couple times in college, preferred beer by a large margin
<srbaker>
yorickpeterse: haha. i live in Canada. weed in the Netherlands is not one of the draws for me
<yorickpeterse>
good, then come drink with us Reddit people during meetups
<yorickpeterse>
or the Ruby meetups
<imperator>
reddit people..... *SHUDDER*
<srbaker>
yorickpeterse: hopefully the Ruby meet ups are higher quality than the ones in Canadian cities. :/
<yorickpeterse>
srbaker: hmmm, this clears things up a bit
<yorickpeterse>
imperator: heh, basically it's just a bunch of people drinking and talking about anything but Reddit
<srbaker>
in fact, i was really fucking disappointed when i was in Leiden and asked people "Can you tell me where I can buy coffee?" and they'd give me a dirty look and send me to the weed shop
<srbaker>
i later learned it's Kofie
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<antbody>
I'd be darn happy if I were directed to a weed shop
<imperator>
so he asked for "java" instead and got sent srbaker to some boring conference
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<srbaker>
in fact, the only thing i didn't enjoy about NL was when i tried my best to speak Dutch, the person on the other end would just speak English. better than i do.
<yorickpeterse>
imperator: hahaha
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<yorickpeterse>
srbaker: oh yeah, most people here are used to people trying to speak Dutch and failing at it
<yorickpeterse>
if you want practise, try saying "Grachtengordel", "Hagelslag" or "roggen brood"
<imperator>
everyone under 40 spoke near perfect english when i was there
<srbaker>
my client's kids were a bit difficult to chat with, but they were very happy to help me learn dutch.
<Kero>
srbaker: You can tell people "Ik wil mijn nederlands oefenen" and they will switch back from english
<yorickpeterse>
chances are that if you're in Amsterdam the people you talk to don't speak Dutch themselves
<srbaker>
Kero: ah.
<Kero>
true
<srbaker>
i didn't terribly like Amsterdam
<imperator>
lots of tourists :)
<srbaker>
i mean, it was beautiful and awesome. but I preferred Leiden
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<yorickpeterse>
It's a decent city if you don't stay in the touristy places for too long
<yorickpeterse>
Though a lot is overrated
<yorickpeterse>
such as the sex museum
<yorickpeterse>
Dam square also gets old really fast
<imperator>
drunk brits everywhere!
<srbaker>
haha
<yorickpeterse>
Or, and no offence, American teenagers
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<yorickpeterse>
* offense
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<srbaker>
it's funny, in North America everyone knows "Amsterdam'
<srbaker>
but comparatively few people know "Netherlands" or "Holland"
<srbaker>
so i just don't ever say "Amsterdam'
<Kero>
but they don't know "New Amsterdam", do they?
<imperator>
why they changed it i can't say....
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<yorickpeterse>
jesus, those comments on the Sendgrid facebook post are really contradicting and confusing
<breakingthings>
all of the drama is contradictory and confusing i've stopped trying to follow it anymore
* whitequark
goes to register pythondramas.com
<breakingthings>
too much crazy on both sides
<yorickpeterse>
whitequark: no no
<yorickpeterse>
__pythondramas__.com
<whitequark>
ROFL
<yorickpeterse>
make the index page redirect to /self
<whitequark>
yorickpeterse: wanna make a layout? I suck at html
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<imperator>
self.__pythondramas__.com ?
<yorickpeterse>
imperator: ha
<whitequark>
excellent
<yorickpeterse>
whitequark: I'm not a designer, use Twitter Bootstrap or something like that
<yorickpeterse>
I'm also too busy I'm afraid
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<whitequark>
also _ is not a valid symbol in domain names
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<whitequark>
nor is trailing/leading - I'm afraid
<whitequark>
that sucks
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<whitequark>
and publishing such a thing would be using completely unrelated dirty story to screw with python community, which doesn't really have anything to do with the drama, by itself
<whitequark>
so screw it.
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<darix>
whitequark: well it seems now all 3 person involved in the drama got fired.
<whitequark>
darix: yeah I've seen that
<andrewvos>
"manager who fired first guy fired"
<whitequark>
domino effect?
<andrewvos>
bet that comes next
<andrewvos>
I blame Obama
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<darix>
andrewvos: i blame people who overreact instead of talking to each other.
<andrewvos>
I blame lamp
<darix>
that too
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<darix>
this was just as bad as the green/yellow/red card crap on the last CCC congress
<andrewvos>
I don't follow soccer
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<tbuehlmann>
darix, the idea i
<andrewvos>
Wow I haven't released a stupid gem in a while. any ideas?
<tbuehlmann>
isn't bad. ppl just didn't know what the card were good for
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<tbuehlmann>
and ppl can't know what they did wrong when getting a card without a proper conversation, which is a pure flaw
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<andrewvos>
link?
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<tbuehlmann>
google for creepercards
<tbuehlmann>
first thing done with them: built a naked woman on a wall
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<andrewvos>
wow defcon sounds like a conference full of assholes
<srbaker>
amerine: also, i'm the happiest guy you know now. i split time between Smalltalk and Ruby.
<srbaker>
more smalltalk every day
<ReinH>
srbaker: nice :)
<ReinH>
realDAB: zomg hi David :)
<realDAB>
hi ReinH :-)
<ReinH>
realDAB: I've never used refinements and frankly I hope I never do, so I don't think I can help you
<realDAB>
ReinH: someone on another channel confirms that they're only available at the top level, which is contrary to most examples (which i guess are purely hypothetical)
<ReinH>
realDAB: well, to be fair, refinements were only hypothetical until relatively recently ;)
<realDAB>
heh, true
<realDAB>
i'm not sure they even merit a place in the book yet -- maybe a sidebar
<amerine>
Just like gravity. Relatively, of course.
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<yorickpeterse>
realDAB: correct, they are lexically scoped now
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<yorickpeterse>
there was a pretty big discussion about it on the Redmine tracker but it seems the general media didn't really cover it
<yorickpeterse>
let me see if I can find it
<realDAB>
yeah, somehow my finger got off the pulse of this one
<darix>
tbuehlmann: the real solution was still - talking to the people. and you can do that without stupid cards and without posting pictures of them online.
<yorickpeterse>
bear with me, redmine's search is slow as balls
<srbaker>
darix: namely: it's easy to make a mess in smalltalk. It's easier to clean up a mess in Smalltalk than in any other programming environment ever.
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<darix>
srbaker: i dont know smalltalk to judge that.
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<srbaker>
darix: i do. it's true. you should try it. get Pharo
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<rue>
I’m still confused by the existence of a bot
<yorickpeterse>
srbaker: No trolling intended, but is Smalltalk actually used in production somewhere?
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<srbaker>
yorickpeterse: all over the place, but you have to go deep in the bowels of banks and insurance companies
<rue>
Somewhere ^
<rue>
Wasn’t ddfreyne working on an st system?
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<srbaker>
yorickpeterse: if you do anything with money, it passes through a smalltalk system, or 10.
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<amerine>
Long story short, Smalltalk is at the center of the US Financial crisis. Not because Smalltalk is bad, but because no one could fix the HVT systems built in it.
<amerine>
</scarcasm>
<srbaker>
hahaha
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<bougyman>
srbaker: i saw a lot of the same with MUMPS in healthcare finance.
<bougyman>
MUMPS and (gasp) PICK
<bougyman>
there's a lot of MUMPS in the mortgage industry, as well.
<amerine>
bougyman: I haven't heard someone mention MUMPS in years.
<yorickpeterse>
srbaker: how come it's popular in those areas?
<srbaker>
i've heard of people using MUMPS. we integrate with a few of them
<srbaker>
yorickpeterse: because they had the money to pay for the tools int eh 80s
<srbaker>
yorickpeterse: in the 80s, to do development on smalltalk was like $3500 or $4000 per seat.
<yorickpeterse>
heh
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<darix>
so in a few years smalltalk programmers will see as much demand as cobol programmers now
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<yorickpeterse>
cobol on cogs!
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<r0bglees0n>
yorickpeterse: i'm not a typical bonghead, you're sense of perception is just wrong! :p
<r0bglees0n>
your*
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<yorickpeterse>
pfffff
<yorickpeterse>
So far you've always slacked off of going to meetups
<yorickpeterse>
and your own girlfriend put you on a ration :P
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<whitequark>
ReinH: re ruby2. no.
<whitequark>
ISO standard is based on a weird amalgamation of 1.8 and 1.9.
<whitequark>
it leaves out all Encoding stuff for example
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<whitequark>
but does not mandate 1.8 behavior either
<whitequark>
it also predates 2.0 by a long time.
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<yorickpeterse>
whitequark: we need to reverse engineer parse.y into a human readable set of documentation that can be used by everybody
* yorickpeterse
gets the razor blades
<whitequark>
yorickpeterse: my ragel lexer is very readable
<yorickpeterse>
though I think it might be better to reverse engineer the jruby/rbx parser for that
<whitequark>
and the grammar.y of ruby_parser is quite manageable
<whitequark>
mostly
<yorickpeterse>
because...parse.y
<whitequark>
rbx parser is parse.y ;)
<yorickpeterse>
wat
<whitequark>
that
<yorickpeterse>
srsly
<whitequark>
yep
<yorickpeterse>
alas poor brian
<whitequark>
they just got it to generate ASTs instead of that ripper crap
<whitequark>
jruby is eh java
<whitequark>
and antlr
<yorickpeterse>
hmpf
<whitequark>
I could never quite make sense of antlr, it's LL(k) or whatever
<yorickpeterse>
well, sadism it is then
<whitequark>
mwahaha
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<r0bglees0n>
yorickpeterse: haha. i will make it to a meetup. most of the time i work nights.
<yorickpeterse>
how did the immigration stuff work out by the way?
<injekt>
huzzah
<yorickpeterse>
did Dutch customs give you a hard time?
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<yorickpeterse>
ugh, fuck you MRI for not giving proper info when using #parameters
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<whitequark>
ugh, fuck you MRI for not having enough resolution to find the tumor in my brain
<yorickpeterse>
wat
<yorickpeterse>
oh wait
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<yorickpeterse>
BADUM TSH
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<r0bglees0n>
yorickpeterse: no idea. they still haven't got back to me..
<yorickpeterse>
seriously? So is your gf now in NL or back in Mexico?
<r0bglees0n>
she's in NL right now. her visa is valid until the process is finished, which can take up 6 months.
<yorickpeterse>
damn
<injekt>
haven't you been there longer than that now?
<yorickpeterse>
I suppose this is where it would be handy if I actually knew some people in immigration
<r0bglees0n>
injekt: yeah, but she was on a tourist visa for the first three months.
<injekt>
r0bglees0n: ah
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<r0bglees0n>
yorickpeterse: indeed, but maybe it's a good thing that it's taking longer. it only makes our case look better because we're still together.
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<yorickpeterse>
hmmmmm, I wouldn't be too sure about that
<yorickpeterse>
Dutch customs, and the government in general, can be very unpredictable
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<yorickpeterse>
and more often than not they're completely batshit crazy
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<whitequark>
s,dutch,,
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<yorickpeterse>
well yeah, as I've been told the Russians do a good job at it too
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<whitequark>
i think we need to pick on os x
<whitequark>
because its binary file format is called mach-o.
<yorickpeterse>
__MACOSX
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<whitequark>
1) kill global toplevel. every file has its own toplevel. (this should be easy.)
<andrewvos>
And catch method_missing to require files :)
<whitequark>
2) make that toplevel the last thing constant lookup depends on, instead of Object
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<whitequark>
3) remove require whatsoever. each module has a YAML file which describes its contents: name, description, version, author, etc. Exported constants.
<whitequark>
4) when you need a module, you write something and the constants of that module get added to toplevel; you can use them now.
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<whitequark>
5) prohibit monkeypatching, hack refinements so they could be automatically applied when you depend on a module.
<whitequark>
thoughts?
<andrewvos>
Wow
<andrewvos>
That's a lot of work
<andrewvos>
So you don't want it to be an addon
<andrewvos>
Or an extension of MRI?
<whitequark>
andrewvos: in fact I'm writing an implementation from scratch, and it's not really Ruby [as in RubySpec-compliant]. But that could be applied to MRI/JRuby/rbx if needed.
<whitequark>
the changes are actually not that complex.
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<andrewvos>
Why do you want to do this?
<whitequark>
andrewvos: what in particular?
<andrewvos>
The whole thing
<andrewvos>
Modules
<whitequark>
I wanna my implementation to have something better than require.
<andrewvos>
So how do you expect to use it?
<andrewvos>
In code
<whitequark>
`import :Foobar', or even just `import Foobar'.
<andrewvos>
Okay well the code for that would be pretty simple
<whitequark>
now you have access to the constant Foobar, and any refinements it adds are also applied to this scope
<andrewvos>
Unless you had a class with the name Foobar and the file with the name LOL_NOT_FOOBAR
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<andrewvos>
Though without the : I can't imagine how you would do it
<andrewvos>
Can you mess around with constant lookup on the Foobar constant?
<whitequark>
andrewvos: I'll just make `import' a keyword.
<andrewvos>
Hmm, that would be hard. Wonder if there's any easy way to get around that.
<andrewvos>
easier*
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<andrewvos>
Is const_lookup not in MRI?
<andrewvos>
Aww hell whitequark now you got me hacking around with things I shouldn't be hacking around with
<whitequark>
andrewvos: please. I'm not really interested in implementation details of MRI; more, conceptually. It is trivially implemented in MRI by modifying its source.
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<andrewvos>
Okay
<drbrain>
I wonder how close RDoc is to a ruby implementation
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<andrewvos>
Why do you think this would be better than require by the way?
<andrewvos>
(Truly interested)
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<whitequark>
andrewvos: Several reasons
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<whitequark>
I believe it's hard to reason about the code when dependencies in the code are decoupled from dependencies in the packages. I believe it's hard to reason about code when everything can silently modify everything.
<andrewvos>
Didn't know about const_missing!
<whitequark>
Lexical refinements are a big step ahead.
<andrewvos>
Okay, so you are saying that require makes dependencies coupled to each file.
<andrewvos>
And they aren't truly coupled to each file because everything can modify everything.
<andrewvos>
Agreed
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<whitequark>
exactly
<whitequark>
Also I want an easy way to memoize compilation results.
<andrewvos>
It took me like a minute to understand what you mean, but it's so true.
<andrewvos>
Which is why I try to ignore all that and just require everything in one place.
<andrewvos>
Which I'm not sure is good either, because then you don't know when you can delete a require.
<andrewvos>
(though unit tests sometimes help with that)
<andrewvos>
So surely the logical conclusion is to do away with require AND import
<whitequark>
andrewvos: exactly.
<andrewvos>
And just have your implementation work out what file you mean
<whitequark>
hm
<andrewvos>
Perhaps load everything up, but only make certain "modules" get included into the environment when they are used or referenced
<whitequark>
please elaborate
<andrewvos>
For example, you have two classes ClassOne and ClassTwo. Implementation parses both but doesn't load the code from ClassTwo into an executable area until it actually gets referenced by ClassOne
<andrewvos>
Does that make any sense?
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<whitequark>
basically you are suggesting to add rails autoloading to the core
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<whitequark>
is it so?
<andrewvos>
Yeah now that I think about it kind of :(
* andrewvos
kills self
<whitequark>
I don't like it because it's not amenable to static analysis. Think const_missing
<whitequark>
er, const_get
<andrewvos>
I guess so
<whitequark>
actually nevermind, const_get can't be called without an explicit module receiver
<whitequark>
or I'm wrong
<whitequark>
because with autoloading, that would be Object
<whitequark>
so. look. I imagine that a package definition file would be similar to what's currently stored in gemspec.
<andrewvos>
Okay
<whitequark>
let me write an example...
<andrewvos>
And packages can only be files, or external dependencies (gem-like) too?
<whitequark>
andrewvos: Hm?
<andrewvos>
sorry I mean modules
<andrewvos>
I actually mean "can modules only be inside files or can they be in external files"
<andrewvos>
Like gems in gemfile
<andrewvos>
Suppose it doesn't matter
<whitequark>
let's stop calling them 'modules', due to confusion with Module class instances
<whitequark>
let's call them 'packages'
<andrewvos>
yeah
<whitequark>
so, package contains multiple modules
<whitequark>
which *are* Ruby modules
<whitequark>
package ~ gem.
<andrewvos>
rking: Did you get anywhere with your fat packing idea by the way?
<whitequark>
hm, it would be very uncool if the package would need to import its internal stuff
<whitequark>
so let's make the toplevel shared for the entire package
<andrewvos>
I don't get you
<andrewvos>
You mean the "dependencies:" part is a bit too much work?
<whitequark>
andrewvos: no no
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<whitequark>
I mean that RubyLexer would maybe define a RubyLexerHelper toplevel class for some reason, and then it will have to import it
<whitequark>
or actually not even this
<whitequark>
if different files in ruby_lexer would get their own toplevel, and they all do `module RubyLexer', they would get lots of distinct modules with same name
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<andrewvos>
well I would imagine some sort of (shudder) namespacing
<andrewvos>
To prevent this
<whitequark>
so they need to share their 'toplevel constant resolution scope' in order for it to be convenient
<andrewvos>
Ok so you can use code from two different packages quite easily... What I worry about is perhaps you load up something like sinatra, and it starts a server on 9292. What happens if you load up Sinatra1 and Sinatra2. Those kind of edge cases would break everything
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<whitequark>
andrewvos: why would this break?
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<hnanon>
Can anyone help with manipulating a string?
<drbrain>
cats are good at manipulating string
<hnanon>
haha...
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<whitequark>
drbrain: that is awesome
<hnanon>
No, seriously... say I have "Employee :Bill, Gates"
<hnanon>
How would I transform it to "Employee :Gates, Bill"
<andrewvos>
whitequark: Well I really mean when loading up packages that have startup behaviour
<andrewvos>
... that may interfere with the startup behaviour of another version
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<whitequark>
andrewvos: doing actions with side effects on startup is a *bad idea*
<whitequark>
also sinatra hijacks #at_exit instead
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<andrewvos>
Yeah.. And I guess if you try use two different sinatras in your code you deserve to die
<andrewvos>
So yeah, no problem there :)
<whitequark>
andrewvos: well, two different sinatras both with the default behavior
<whitequark>
i.e. hijack at_exit and toplevel
<whitequark>
then yes
<whitequark>
blogging time!
<andrewvos>
Link when you're done please
<drbrain>
hnanon: I lost connection after "Employee :Bill, Gates"
<andrewvos>
hnanon: Would a simple replace do?
<hnanon>
drbrian: How would I transform it to "Employee :Gates, Bill"
<drbrain>
hnanon: so the ":" is important?
<hnanon>
It's in the HTML...
<drbrain>
I would split on ':' then reverse the second half
<hnanon>
I hate to ask...can you show me how?
<hnanon>
This is the very first script I'm working on and I'm struggling through it.
<drbrain>
hnanon: start with label, data = record.split ':', 2
<drbrain>
hnanon: do you use irb?
<hnanon>
Yes.
<drbrain>
ok, good
<drbrain>
you can glue those back together with Array#join:
<drbrain>
[label, data].join ':'
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<hnanon>
Hmm, let me give it a try...
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<drbrain>
that suhold give you a clue for how to reverse the name part
<whitequark>
drbrain: do you maybe remember an article that said "don't write 'gem' in your gems, the system I use to manage my $LOAD_PATH is none of your concern"?
<whitequark>
oh nevermind, that quote brings it from google
<drbrain>
oh good
<drbrain>
I don't remember, but it sounds like something I would support
<eam>
whitequark: sure, but there's no need for it to be "GEM_HOME". Why is that a thing? Why not just have $:.push "~/.rubylib"
<whitequark>
eam: I don't want to use sudo to install ruby packages; I'm lazy
<zenspider>
(File.expand_path)
<whitequark>
the only reason
<eam>
whitequark: did you see what I wrote? no sudo
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<whitequark>
eam: sure but I was talking about my personal setup with rubygems and current ruby
<whitequark>
not a theoretical no-rubygems system
<eam>
so am I, did you see?
<eam>
it's not theoretical
<eam>
I do this
<whitequark>
well, I like installing packages with `gem'? why shouldn't I use rubygems for running them, then?
<whitequark>
*loading
<eam>
that's an odd answer to the question I posed "why should you?"
<eam>
"well why shouldn't you?"
<eam>
the reason is it's totally not necessary
<whitequark>
ok
<whitequark>
sure
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<whitequark>
I'll explain it further
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<eam>
gems conflate a language-specific packaging mechanism (ala cpan) with a weird version management scheme
<whitequark>
I find it realistic that one might use a single ruby, preferably system ruby, in both development and production, and install libs with binary extensions through the system package manager.
<eam>
sure
<whitequark>
the last part is essentially good
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<whitequark>
now; the part about versions
<drbrain>
eam: "weird" :D
<hnanon>
drbrain: label, data = "employee :Bill, Gates".split(":")
<whitequark>
suppose I have to develop two apps. one uses rails 3.2.13, the other uses rails 3.2.11.
<eam>
drbrain: it strikes me as especially odd, having done the same kind of version management without it
<hnanon>
drbrain: ["employee ", "Bill, Gates"]
<whitequark>
and I cannot/do not want to upgrade.
<drbrain>
hnanon: p data
<drbrain>
eam: if I wrote rubygems from scratch it would not allow multiple versions
<eam>
whitequark: ok. The normal way to do this is to set $: appropriately to require the version of rails you want, as each app contains its own library set
<drbrain>
supporting multiple versions is very frustrating
<whitequark>
hmmm
<eam>
and by normal I mean "all languages which support modules, except for ruby which has this extra layer as well"
<whitequark>
drbrain: how would you solve the problem I've described, then?
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<drbrain>
whitequark: oh, I haven't been paying attention much
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<eam>
eg I don't have a problem doing this in perl, by only manipulating @INC
<whitequark>
drbrain: suppose I have to develop two apps. one uses rails 3.2.13, the other uses rails 3.2.11. and I cannot/do not want to upgrade.
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<zenspider>
oh noes! corundum! nooooooooooooo
<whitequark>
drbrain: what eam suggests is, to me, essentially a suggestion to replace rubygems with apt+bundler
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<eam>
no, I'm not suggesting replacing the packaging format
<zzak>
:(
<drbrain>
whitequark: I would support a per-app local gem repository
<eam>
it's interesting to compare/contrast cpan/perl with gem/ruby
<whitequark>
drbrain: zenspider: so I guess it's like directing bundler to install the stuff into vendor/ for current setups
<zenspider>
why the fuck do ppl come to public cafe's to play their stupid multiplayer videogames?
<whitequark>
eam: no, unfortunately
<whitequark>
zenspider: mothers
<eam>
cpan is essentially the gem repository + packaging, but not the multiple-version weirdness and dispatch logic (and binary wrapping)
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<drbrain>
whitequark: yes
<zenspider>
this guy looks 30
<eam>
it's only the latter part I'm questioning
<drbrain>
but that rubygems will probably never exist
<whitequark>
zenspider: ... so?
<drbrain>
well, by default
<whitequark>
drbrain: actually, that might work
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<whitequark>
if something already exists in the environment, say installed by apt, this 'bundler' can use it
<zenspider>
whitequark: you can look at my gem ohmygems for stupid simple multiple repo support. or set GEM_HOME as you pointed out, or do `gem i -i ~/.gem gemname`
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<whitequark>
if it isn't, it installs it in a local repo.
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<eam>
per-app lib dir + push it on $: is how it's done in the perl world
<drbrain>
corundum: botsnack
<corundum>
drbrain: thanks :)
<drbrain>
must have been hung
<eam>
and the rest of system stuff is still in $: if you want it
<zenspider>
poor corundum
<drbrain>
the process was up
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<zenspider>
not just slurping up bandwidth... clicking and Clicking And CLICKING AND CLICKING... ugh
<whitequark>
eam: I like that.
<whitequark>
A lot, actually.
<hnanon>
Ok, so two array...one includes "Employee" and the other includes "Bill, Gates".
<eam>
whitequark: me too, which is why I wonder why rubygems :D
<whitequark>
drbrain: way to break stuff in ruby 3.0/rubygems 3.0 :)
<hnanon>
I then split "Bill, Gates" at the comma...
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<whitequark>
drbrain: this is actually not as hardcore a change as it might seem initially...
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<drbrain>
whitequark: it's the user expectations that are the problem more than changing the code
<whitequark>
drbrain: I think that most projects which do require this version juggling are already on Bundler
<whitequark>
or will/should migrate to it
<whitequark>
and bundler either already provides a simple migration path, or can be fixed trivially to do that