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<jokke>
hey, how do i execute something without blocking?
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<jokke>
i tried something like `firefox &` but is still blocks
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<jokke>
never mind
<jokke>
works with system "#{command} &"
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<_br_>
jokke: if you are looking for ruby syntax you might want to look into e.g. fork
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<_br_>
jokke: the & sign just puts a process into the background, but its shell syntax. If you want to handle it from ruby please check the Process class etc.
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<reppard>
anyone know how to make alt+arrow change windows in irssi, in iTerm, on mountain lion
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<reppard>
exit
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<reppard>
the answer was to use tmux
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<jokke>
_br_: well, i'm writing a application laucher. So even if the launcher is killed, the processes lauched by it should continue. You know of a better way to do this?
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<aytch>
jokke: calling it through system shouldn't tie it to the process, I believe
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<jokke>
it does
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<jokke>
or calling what?
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<aytch>
I just ran: system `open .` on my mac, and the process is independent of irb
<aytch>
maybe because it called Finder....hmm
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<aytch>
yeah, using `open /path/to/application.app` makes it independent from the ruby process, at least on a mac & Windows
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<shevy>
it's their way to lure you in
<shevy>
once you buy apple, you are forever a fanboi :(
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<ninegrid>
can osx run xmonad?
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<shevy>
what a ruby question!
<shevy>
come use linux
<shevy>
all use linux
<shevy>
then we will write RubyOS
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<ninegrid>
hey i code in ruby, and xmonad is apart of my toolchain... so is hubris, so if osx doesn't do it i want no part of it
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<shevy>
hmm is xmonad the one with the dependency on haskell?
<ninegrid>
yes, the config file is in haskell as well
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<shevy>
a guy once said to me (on IRC) that haskell may be too difficult for me, like 5 years ago
<shevy>
he was right :(
<ninegrid>
i think you're both wrong
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<ninegrid>
haskell has a steep learning curve, but you're a rubyist so you have a foot in the door
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<ninegrid>
they are very different languages at the outset, but they have some things in common
<shevy>
well the thing was
<shevy>
with perl/php/lua/python/ruby, one kind of "sees" a pattern in all of them
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<shevy>
even into C (ignoring having to manage memory and pointers here)
<shevy>
with haskell, I never really understood it
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<ninegrid>
i'd hate to talk about haskell in here... so i'll leave at this
<ninegrid>
learn you a haskell
<shevy>
I cant even tell you whether there are functions in haskell... I think they are... but they look differently
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<shevy>
*there are
<jrajav>
That's because the "functions" you're used to aren't functions at all, but subroutines
<ninegrid>
^
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<shevy>
hmmm
<jrajav>
In fact, pretty much every difficulty with Haskell or functional programming can be explained by the deep assimilation of imperative/procedural programming and the techniques involved in it
<ninegrid>
haskell forces you into a paradigm, and ruby wants to follow that paradigm with "best practices" yet it allows you to do pretty much anything
<ninegrid>
that is why i like both of these languages the most, they are at opposite ends of a spectrum
<shevy>
ok here I must reveal my noobness but... what is the difference between a function and a subroutine? in perl they call their functions sub too I think
<ninegrid>
shevy: a function has no side effects
<jrajav>
A function is a mathematical concept, something that describes a relation over a set. Or in simpler terms, something that takes an input and spits out some output
<ninegrid>
that is a handy way of looking at it, a function is like looking up something in an immutable dictionary
<jrajav>
A subroutine is just a set of sequential instructions (at some given level of abstractions) that can be called by other instructions
<jrajav>
ninegrid: Uh, no, I meant all of that in the mathematical sense
<jrajav>
Mathematical sets don't have a lot to do with dictionaries
<ninegrid>
well i'm thinking of a .net dictionary when i say that
<ninegrid>
you can't put in two keys, there is no total ordering
<ninegrid>
you can put in two values tho
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<ninegrid>
such as f(n) = 1
<jrajav>
Okay, but that's an analogy at best. What I quoted is the actual definition of a function as given by set theory
<ninegrid>
if you're explaining it to someone without a strong math background, i think a dictionary lookup is a valid metaphor
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<ninegrid>
shevy: the function has a spectrum of inputs (called the codomain) and a spectrum of outputs (called the domain), it simply maps inputs to outputs such that given the same input value it will always yield the same corresponding output value... in a subroutine you cannot guarantee that claim if values can change throughout the execution of the program
<shevy>
waaaah
<shevy>
new words try to make it into my brain faster than their associated understanding does :(
<shevy>
domain... codomain... this is the first time I read this
<ninegrid>
case in point
<shevy>
and now a subroutine sounds like a part of chaos theory :)
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<shevy>
haskell turns people into abstract philosophizers
<ninegrid>
since programs run its very much applied philosphizing
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<jrajav>
shevy: Set theory and category theory are intimidating when you don't have many of the abstractions internalized (like anything that depends on lots of abstractions), but if you learn them from the ground up they're way more accessible than you'd think. I'd really recommend learning about them if you enjoy programming.
<jrajav>
And Haskell is very good way to do so
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<jrajav>
Paradox: infected mushroom and midnight is making that trippier than it really should be for me
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<shevy>
almost as simple as "how to iterate over an array"
<tekknolagi>
shevy: umm... oh dear. what did i do? D:
<shevy>
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it seems like a huge complex problem that would require lots of time to find out where the problem is, in addition to having to know lots of other things... I can not even discern what your problem is. What is "funky error about files not found upon writing the file", what does that even mean
<tekknolagi>
File.open returns No such file or directory
<shevy>
this is how one would write a file in ruby: File.open('/foo.txt', 'a+', 0755) {|file| file.write(your_data_here) }
<shevy>
please, I cant do anything with this image
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<shevy>
"No such file or directory" - did you pass in anything as the first argument to File.open
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<tekknolagi>
I did
<shevy>
are you sure :P
<tekknolagi>
def save_torrent(fn, tmp)
<tekknolagi>
File.open(File.join($pubdir, fn), 'w+') do |f|
<tekknolagi>
f.write(tmp.read)
<tekknolagi>
File.join($pubdir, fn)
<tekknolagi>
end
<tekknolagi>
end
<tekknolagi>
whoops, sorry for pasting
<shevy>
and what exactly does: File.join($pubdir, fn) return
<tekknolagi>
it's in the second line that has a problem
<tekknolagi>
hang on one sec; irssi in tmux is giving me issues
<shevy>
and why do you use it twice
<shevy>
you use this File.join($pubdir, fn) twice
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<shevy>
why not _ = File.join($pubdir, fn) and then use the _ variable
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<tekknolagi>
alright
<tekknolagi>
back
<tekknolagi>
wait
<shevy>
why do you use File.join($pubdir, fn) twice, why not _ = File.join($pubdir, fn) and then _
<tekknolagi>
shit
<tekknolagi>
still issues
<tekknolagi>
webirc
<shevy>
use xchat
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<shevy>
also what does File.join($pubdir, fn) give you
<tekknolagi>
okay
<tekknolagi>
back
<shevy>
and why do you use global variables anyway
<shevy>
I want to remove your app :P
<tekknolagi>
remove my app?
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<shevy>
yes, it uses global variables
<tekknolagi>
this is one of two global variables. first one is $pubdir, other one is $conf
<tekknolagi>
$conf has db conf, $pubdir is the public directory
<shevy>
and $pubdir can change?
<tekknolagi>
no, it's static
<tekknolagi>
rather, nothing actually changes it
<shevy>
you could use a constant then, PUBDIR, or what I do, assign to @pubdir within my class
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<shevy>
anyway, what does: File.join($pubdir, fn) give you
<tekknolagi>
alright i will do that as soon as i fix this
<tekknolagi>
presumably it gives /app/public/i/
<tekknolagi>
since /app/public/i/ubuntu-12.04-alternate-amd64.iso.torrent is the correct path
<shevy>
what do you mean "presumably"
<shevy>
how can you not know
<tekknolagi>
no, i do know, but clearly somethign is wrong
<tekknolagi>
so i am being careful in my words
<tekknolagi>
as i don't know what is wrong
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<shevy>
ok so you are 100% sure that this File.join returns the string: "/app/public/i/"
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<tekknolagi>
if it did not, the error would not report back the correct path in the error
<shevy>
in that case, I can think of only one more reason why this would fail with File.open, which would be either a permission error... or this path does not exist
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<shevy>
I dont know how you find such errors, but when I use apache, in the log files I would get the permission-error or in general the real culprit
<tekknolagi>
could it be something with the way Heroku is structured? as far asi know, i can write files, but they are ephemeral
<shevy>
you could check if (1) the directory exists or (2) the permission is proper, in ruby code
<tekknolagi>
this is on Heroku, and i don't see anything wrong in the logs
<shevy>
dunno, perhaps heroku does something fancy behind the scene and disallows certain things, I have no idea. we need a heroku expert
<shevy>
Heroku experts listen up!
<shevy>
(^^^ trying to get them to wake up...)
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<shevy>
all I know is that File.open works perfectly well on my machine :D
<tekknolagi>
Heroku guys...? :D
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<shevy>
yeah, people with lots of heroku experience
<tekknolagi>
here, trying something and pushing
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<tekknolagi>
OH
<tekknolagi>
git does not push empty directories
<tekknolagi>
gotta make it on app startup
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<shevy>
:\
<shevy>
how can people even work like that
<shevy>
I need all my things locally
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<tekknolagi>
i used to do that, but it was harder to manage
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<tekknolagi>
Passenger is awful
<tekknolagi>
well
<tekknolagi>
it's nice
<tekknolagi>
but managing it and bugs and different gemsets
<tekknolagi>
is
<tekknolagi>
not fun.
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<tekknolagi>
okay, different error now
<tekknolagi>
unfortunately
<tekknolagi>
undefined method `include?' for nil:NilClass
<tekknolagi>
for
<tekknolagi>
def self.add(tag) first_or_new :name => tag end
<tekknolagi>
(should be three lines)
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<tekknolagi>
i can't tell if first_or_new is causing the error or tag is
<tekknolagi>
i'm sort of a newbie
<tekknolagi>
but
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<shevy>
I have no idea what you are doing here
<tekknolagi>
blah. sinatra.
<shevy>
but apparently you have a nil object
<tekknolagi>
so it's a method in the Tag class
<shevy>
and your code is wrong when you can check .include? on a nil object
<tekknolagi>
i never call .include? though
<shevy>
then you use some kind of software incorrectly or this software sucks :D
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<shevy>
I would not even know that first_or_new() does
<tekknolagi>
have you ever used DataMapper?
<shevy>
in plain ruby, you would get the file line
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<shevy>
nope
<tekknolagi>
damn,
<tekknolagi>
damn*.
<shevy>
I try to use as much as possible self-written and as little as possible written by someone else
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<tekknolagi>
why?
<shevy>
I make generous exceptions for high quality libraries written by others
<shevy>
tekknolagi because most ruby code out there sucks
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<shevy>
I took over maintaing ruby-fpdf
<tekknolagi>
shevy: i would say DataMapper does not fall into the suckish category
<shevy>
it has things like "def LineBreak(a,b,c,d,e,f,g)" and I kid you not here
<tekknolagi>
...oh dear.
<nga4>
I tend to use stuff I could write in a few days over something where I may be at the mercy of others as well
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<shevy>
but at least it produces correct .pdf files, so that is at least something
<nga4>
unless its a huge win, I will abstain
<shevy>
nga4 yeah
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<shevy>
I think it has a lot to do with the quality of the original author
<nga4>
been "got" a few times by that
<nga4>
and that never comes cheap
<nga4>
unless you took the time to abstract it well before hand
<shevy>
yeah
<tekknolagi>
ay caray
<tekknolagi>
okay ruby question
<tekknolagi>
straight ruby
<shevy>
tekknolagi when you use several different pieces of software together, you almost always need to understand each component very well too
<tekknolagi>
conceptual
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<tekknolagi>
which one is the equivalent of a "static" method of a class
<tekknolagi>
a self.method or a method?
<shevy>
in rails, I would not want to learn it because I know I would also have to understand all of Active*
<shevy>
define the meaning of the word "static"
<shevy>
class Foo; def self.test;puts 'this is test';end;end; Foo.test
<tekknolagi>
i.e. calling it with ClassName.method rather than ClassInstance.method
<nga4>
maybe singleton, if you come from java or c
<shevy>
"this is test"
<nga4>
def self.method do stuff end
<tekknolagi>
nga4: i think singleton, yes
<nga4>
in the class def
<nga4>
you can do that per instance of an object, for ruby singletons
<shevy>
yeah
<nga4>
or at the class declaration for a static type class lib
<shevy>
x = Foo.new; def x.test; puts 'hi there again';end
<nga4>
or in a module for mutliple inheritance sort of thing
<tekknolagi>
soooo if i wanted to do Tag.add, would i use self.method or just method?
<nga4>
def self.method
<tekknolagi>
okay cool
<nga4>
np
<shevy>
tekknolagi yes, only via def self.name_of_method
<shevy>
hmmm or perhaps... "def Tag" and have that return an object that can respond to add() method :D
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<shevy>
or, if you like it happy, an object that uses method_missing() hahaha
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<nga4>
there is also class << self; def method; some stuff; end ;end
<nga4>
tons of ways to swing that
<shevy>
I once had a project designed that way. the classes were all using method_missing to shift around messages... but a year later, I started to hate this complexity and ripped it apart with a passion, since then I am wary of method_missing and send used together
<nga4>
last ditch effort with mehtod missing
<shevy>
I still use .send sometimes though
<shevy>
hehe
<nga4>
I'll use the hell out of modules
<shevy>
I am scared by method_missing :\
<shevy>
nga4, do you use modules and lots of subclasses together?
<tekknolagi>
metaprogramming is weird to me
<nga4>
meta in class and instance methods
<nga4>
yeah
<shevy>
hmm interesting
<nga4>
have some comomn set of things that can be generalized by an abstract class
<nga4>
them mix in modules on some of them to get a sort of second generalization
<nga4>
if you need to mix in complex behavior
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<nga4>
and then stick methods in to the class def of the subclass and instance methods
<nga4>
works great in rails for "All these objects now fire events for this to tell remote servers that" without disrupting a reasonable OO class structure
<nga4>
Single table inheritance, that mess
<shevy>
hehe
<nga4>
its a great way to decouple stuff
<nga4>
but still have a sensible scalable structure
<nga4>
Wish I worked more in ruby sometimes
<nga4>
othertimes not
<nga4>
you work in ruby you get siloed to rails and making webpages and webservices, not a lot of real time nifty stuff going on
<tekknolagi>
hey that hurts :P
<tekknolagi>
i consider myself to be doing cool things
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<nga4>
maybe Im unfortunate
<nga4>
I spend ore time in c now-a-days
<tekknolagi>
i used C a lot more one or two years ago
<nga4>
distributed computing
<tekknolagi>
i'm using C++ right now for my robotics tema
<tekknolagi>
team*
<nga4>
it is NO where near as pleasant
<tekknolagi>
yaaaay FRC
<tekknolagi>
i really dislike C++
<nga4>
but the problems are a bit cooler
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<shevy>
well
<shevy>
you can always use ruby for the helper-stuff, and C/C++ for when you need the speed
<tekknolagi>
nah
<tekknolagi>
FIRST gives you hardware and software you need to use
<nga4>
c then toss in lua for ruby like structures when you want them and zmq
<shevy>
I thought that the core of C++ was not so bad
<nga4>
small
<shevy>
I liked it more than java
<nga4>
portable
<tekknolagi>
VxWorks on the cRIO
<tekknolagi>
so we use C++ or Java
<shevy>
but I will never use templates
<tekknolagi>
since it ahs to work with their libraries
<tekknolagi>
i despise Java.
<shevy>
yeah java is awful
<nga4>
I learned in java, I don't much miss it
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<shevy>
hehe
<nga4>
so many people use it though
<tekknolagi>
i can't help but wonder why AP Compsci (CollegeBoard) is taught in Java
<nga4>
good money
<tekknolagi>
it's declining in industry
<shevy>
yeah, java is for when you wanna get rich
<nga4>
scala would be worth looking at
<pnkbst>
tekknolagi: because they don't know that they're doing?
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<shevy>
all the banks here use java
<tekknolagi>
pnkbst: also why they have you hand write code
<nga4>
It would be novel ot see ruby go a bit more mainstream as a general langauge instead of just one primarily used to make webapplications
<tekknolagi>
well the problem is
<nga4>
I could stand to get back into a structure and lexical environment I can use like I did ruby
<tekknolagi>
it's TOO GOOD for web
<tekknolagi>
nothing that can compete except for PHP
<tekknolagi>
but PHP is awful
<nga4>
no kidding
<nga4>
Python stands a shot though
<nga4>
django
<nga4>
it assumes less, you have to drive it more intentionally
<nga4>
but it seems like a legitimate competitor
<tekknolagi>
Django is bad
<nga4>
however python doesn't get pigeon holed quite so badly
<tekknolagi>
tried it
<tekknolagi>
ugh
<tekknolagi>
no
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<nga4>
maybe 2.0 will break the mold
<nga4>
doesn't look like it
<nga4>
but maybe it will
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<nga4>
or maybe a new erlang will debut
<nga4>
That would be amazing
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<nga4>
Go comes close, but its horrible
<ninegrid>
django is bad....
<ninegrid>
weren't you just a minute ago having trouble writing to a file?
<tekknolagi>
yes but it's most likely my fault
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<ninegrid>
how am i supposed to take your experience with django seriously
<tekknolagi>
i'm not exactly lucid right now
<tekknolagi>
lack of sleep
<nga4>
django seemed fine to me, just a slightly different set of rules
<shevy>
nga4 I'd like to see ruby pick up more of erlang concepts
<nga4>
anything thats not erlang to be more like erlang
<ninegrid>
shevy: which ones?
<nga4>
Id love it
<nga4>
scalalang
<shevy>
ninegrid the idea about distribution and fault toleration
<shevy>
it reminds me of biological cells in a living organism
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<nga4>
Have you looked at zmq multi-threading?
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<shevy>
and you can think of every cell as a mini-computer
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<nga4>
Im using it in python, c and lua to do erlang like multi-processing
<ninegrid>
shevy: that comes from immutability
<nga4>
over unix sockets and over the internet
<shevy>
:(
<shevy>
admittedly, what I hate most about erlang is the syntax
<nga4>
no kidding
<nga4>
its a bit too haskell like for me
<ninegrid>
fwiw the F# language has erlang qualities in its standard libraries
<nga4>
smart langauge for smart people
<ninegrid>
erlang is ugly haskell is beautiful
<shevy>
yeah haskell code looks nice
<ninegrid>
we could write mailbox processors in ruby
<lazywei>
/ec
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<nga4>
people keep saying that, the stuff Ive seen written in my company looks rough
<nga4>
we have one guy doing it htough
<nga4>
probably not the best sample
<nga4>
Seriously, look at zeromq
<nga4>
combine it with ruby
<nga4>
you can get mailboxes and more for cheap
<ninegrid>
thats an option, they already have a binding
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<nga4>
and it spans so many langauges and tools
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<nga4>
Think of the apis you could write
<nga4>
the flexibility of going from rails to c
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<nga4>
web services to real time embedded programming
<nga4>
ninegrid: its never to late to look at your options
<ninegrid>
you can try it in the browser
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<nga4>
it compiles right?
<ninegrid>
yes its compiled or repl
<nga4>
well kudos to microsoft if it is what you advertise
<ninegrid>
scripts and bytecode, same language
<ninegrid>
it has units of measure too
<nga4>
I did c# for like a year too
<nga4>
it never wowed me
<nga4>
but it worked
<nga4>
silverlight was an interesting idea because it ran like flex
<ninegrid>
it has easy asynch and parallel, discriminated unions (algebraic datatypes like in haskell or SML), a host of other features but most interesting being type providers
<nga4>
mobile, browser, and installed as an app
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<jeer_>
/window new split
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<shevy>
/destroy the world in 10 seconds
<nga4>
I think I just got told to shut up
<shevy>
hey I was just picking up on jeer_
<jeer_>
/boom
<shevy>
I am porting an old project to a new structure, it sucks and is boring :(
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<shevy>
one day I want to reach a point where I never have to rewrite from scratch
<ninegrid>
guys you shouldn't be opposed to watching other languages.. only improves your own
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<shevy>
but how else can you detect which instance variable is obsolete, if the project really is super huge?
<nga4>
port projects is always a mess
<nga4>
are* wow, bad grammar
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<shevy>
ninegrid I was told this many times, but why would I learn a language that I know is inferior to a better language? I mean I really write ruby code daily... a rival language would have to compete with that OR it is just "learn it because it has new ideas"
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<shevy>
nga4 yeah. I destroyed 3 projects that way :( my first ruby game... it is not working right now ... my master-pipes project... the rewrite is already cleaner, but stuck at 30% status, and I lost motivation... and my first irc bot in ruby also no longer works, and I am not motivated to continue with it
<shevy>
(but I have a standalone IRC "client" that allows me to "talk" in an irc channel at least)
<nga4>
I think its more of a restriction thing for me. When you install remotely on machines like raspberry pis that people can access and hack, I hesitate to use ruby for reasons of size and general ease of messing with.
<nga4>
egh, stagnation
<nga4>
Been there, done that, my sympathies shevy
<ninegrid>
shevy: languages aren't inferior or superior in a linear fashion like that
<nga4>
jump into some machine learning with ruby
<nga4>
that will get you going
<nga4>
also a skill you can market
<nga4>
if only there were more hours and more coffee
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<ninegrid>
i've been programming since '94 i'm at the point now where there isn't a whole lot of friction to learning a new language
<pnkbst>
that's a good read. thanks.
<pnkbst>
more coffee makes it harder for me to work :(
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<nga4>
just balance it out
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<nga4>
1 cup of coffee
<nga4>
2 cups of scotch
<ninegrid>
vicodin
<nga4>
you'll be amazed at how much ruby you'll get done
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<pnkbst>
I've recently cut down to 1 cup of pu erh, 1 cup of mate' daily. 1 cup of espresso every other day. a bit of whiskey in the late afternoon
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<nga4>
every other day
<nga4>
you poor soul
<nga4>
that sort of self abuse should be illegal
<pnkbst>
yes, it is tragic. but I made some sweet espresso
<pnkbst>
*make
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<luckyruby>
shevy: rewriting from scratch is the way to go
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<nga4>
depends on the size of the project
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<luckyruby>
I've done 2-3 rewrites the past year. It's a lot of fun stripping out obsolete requirements.
<nga4>
sometimes you have no choice but to refactor
<nga4>
aggressively
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<luckyruby>
my favorite was replacing our PL/SQL + Oracle reservation system with RoR + Postgres + Redis
<nga4>
luckyruby is right though, ripping out the nonsense is gratifying
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<nga4>
I imagine that felt really good
<luckyruby>
yeah, benchmarked the heck out of it with jmeter beforehand. It chugged at 4 req/s at first. Then after profiling and refactoring, got it up to 100 req/s.
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<luckyruby>
the PL/SQL stuff was running on $350k hardware and only got up to 20 req/s
<nga4>
solaris?
<luckyruby>
the RoR stuff was running on three $300 used servers I bought off ebay secondhand.
<luckyruby>
yeah, bunch of sun hardware and solaris
<nga4>
right tool for the right job
<luckyruby>
we also added statsd and graphite to monitor performance
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<nga4>
did you ever consider or use couchdb to solve that problem?
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<luckyruby>
which problem?
<nga4>
it depends on if you wanted to cheaply scale out sideways
<nga4>
but by the sound of it the two servers you have does the job
<nga4>
solving web requests en mass
<ninegrid>
have any of you tried orientdb? i've been wanting to try it myself...
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<luckyruby>
We have haproxy sitting in front of our web cluster. Each node gives us about 35 req/s.
<luckyruby>
Only pain point right now is redis.
<nga4>
which is why I mentioned couch
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<nga4>
if you wanted to spread out the load it might be a cheap way to do that, maybe not, I dont have a lot of context to go on
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<luckyruby>
Issue with redis is that it blocks on fsync if you can't handle the IO
<ebaranov>
luckyruby, what is the bottleneck in current setup? io, cpu or memory?
<luckyruby>
fsync gets called whenever you run BGSAVE or AOFREWRITE
<luckyruby>
so what we're doing now in the meantime is letting the slave run BGSAVE and on master, we run AOFREWRITE once a week
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<luckyruby>
I've been told on #redis that switching to Raid 0 on our redis servers would help
<nga4>
that seems like a lot of data to put in redis
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<bricker>
is there anything built-in to ruby that will let me recursively grep a directory?
<luckyruby>
we use it to store rate data and shop history
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<luckyruby>
so when you shop for a rate, we set a key with an expiration of 15 min. Then when you actually book, we pull the key to save the data into postgres.
<nga4>
interesting
<nga4>
the right use
<nga4>
but why write to the disk
<luckyruby>
to persist the rates
<nga4>
seems like you keep it for 15 minutes and toss it, try a lookup and if nothing comes back you use the current rate
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<nga4>
hrm
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<nga4>
I have to do something similar
<nga4>
phone calls
<nga4>
rates
<luckyruby>
reason we store rates in redis is cause we're optimizing for rate shops
<nga4>
but we take the rate at the moment hte call ends
<bricker>
I guess I can just use File.read() and #scan
<nga4>
and dont have to go the mile you do
<ninegrid>
bricker: i dont think there is anything "built-in" but you could just do a breadth-first-search from a starting directory with File.find and File.open
<nga4>
I'll stick that one in my deck of cards though
<nga4>
interesting
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<ninegrid>
bricker: actually, have a look at the rak gem
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<shevy>
luckyruby yeah, the new result will be better, but what if you lose motivation when you did 30%?
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<shevy>
I think I did about 12 full rewrites so far, 5 of them were ok, about 3 more I am still writing (but having fun), and the four remaining ones I should have never tried to rewrite, I have no fun spending time on that :(
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<luckyruby>
is this for work or a hobby?
<luckyruby>
usually I'm incentivized by a big bonus for a rewrite
<nga4>
man
<nga4>
I wish
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<shevy>
luckyruby more or less hobby, if I would get paid for it I'd probably put in more effort
<luckyruby>
in my case since I was replacing Oracle + expensive servers, it was easier to negotiate a bonus
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<luckyruby>
switching saved the company at least $80k/year in license and support costs
<nga4>
4 man dev team here
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<nga4>
huge projects
<nga4>
no two overlap
<nga4>
in terms of language or even purpose
<luckyruby>
2 man dev team here
<nga4>
no kidding
<nga4>
sounds like you found a great place
<luckyruby>
we technically have 3 other devs on payroll but they don't do much
<nga4>
well
<nga4>
if you caount that way we have 2
<nga4>
one doesnt show up until 1, leaves at 6, doesnt come in from november to march and the other doesn't show up but twice a week or so
<luckyruby>
they were the original team maintaining the oracle java stuff
<nga4>
coasters
<nga4>
one day
<luckyruby>
nga4 where do you stand among the 4?
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<luckyruby>
are you low or high on the totem pole
<nga4>
I'm lead-ish, I don't like management
<nga4>
everyday from 8-6
<nga4>
nevet watched netflix at work
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<luckyruby>
it helps if your dad is the boss
<nga4>
its not bad, but there is no budget for bonuses great wages
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<nga4>
bonuses or*
<nga4>
I imagine so
<nga4>
I imagine its also easier to sell an idea
<luckyruby>
my dad is CEO and I started out as sys/network admin
<nga4>
not bad
<luckyruby>
developers were sucking so I looked into, recommended they switch to Ruby on Rails (we were primarily pl/sql and java)
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<nga4>
its amazing your java was only doing 1req/s
<nga4>
had they not heard of threads
<luckyruby>
lead developer writes back that ruby is a scripting language and isn't suitable in the enterprise. lol
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<nga4>
hrm
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<nga4>
Ive had java people say that
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<luckyruby>
this was back in 2006. Fast forward to today and I've almost single handedly replaced all their apps with my own.
<nga4>
scripting language or not, its back end software, it gives you flexibility
<luckyruby>
our CTO at the time also had this gem: "Linux is for boys, Solaris is for Men"
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<nga4>
most scripting languages arent like the languages of old, it gets interpretted once and put into a sort of byte code
<nga4>
as long as you don't eval everything
<nga4>
the speed is comparable
<nga4>
Its not c
<nga4>
but nothing is
<nga4>
god
<luckyruby>
our main app was PL/SQL. We had java for daemons that communicated with the PL/SQL.
<nga4>
solaris
<luckyruby>
and some daemons in C
<nga4>
Well good to hear they got their up and comings
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<nga4>
I like java, dont use it
<luckyruby>
so it went something like this. Expedia --> Worldspan --> C Daemon --> Java Daemon --> PL/SQL --> Oracle
<nga4>
but its easy to find really bad applications
<nga4>
probably one of those was just a single thread
<nga4>
request reply
<nga4>
in order
<nga4>
queuing up stuff behind it
<luckyruby>
the C daemon was doing some corba stuff which I didn't want to touch so I replaced the Java Daemon with one written in Eventmachine
<luckyruby>
c daemon takes edifact and converts it to xml to pass to java daemon
<luckyruby>
java daemon takes xml and converts it into some comma delimited format to feed into pl/sql
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<nga4>
horray for json
<luckyruby>
now it looks like: Expedia --> Worldspan --> C Daemon --> Eventmachine --> RoR --> Postgres
<nga4>
wild
<nga4>
ror is so far back in that stack
<nga4>
I guess you just use it to catch xml in a controller and hit some model
<nga4>
Ive never seen it that far back
<nga4>
its just a webservice
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<luckyruby>
EM sends xml in the request body of a POST to rails
<nga4>
makes sense, just unusual
<luckyruby>
rails parses xml and responds with another xml via builder
<nga4>
I have pythong and hskell sending json to mine via posts for routing
<nga4>
python
<nga4>
but we still use rails as a sort of front end for html and what have you
<bricker>
ninegrid: Thanks for the help... this is the quick dirty script I came up with... I had never heard of the Find module until you mentioned it https://gist.github.com/4696710
<luckyruby>
i also have a json api so I can receive a GET with params and respond with JSON
<nga4>
then out through zmq to c servers and to lua and c for serving media to hardware and trasncoding
<bricker>
nga4: not sure what you mean by that... you mean embedded in irb?
<nga4>
no, the module might have one name but the constants you can use might be scoped in a way you would not expect
<luckyruby>
i thank God everyday that I've been spared having to make a living writing php or java.
<nga4>
luckyruby: nah, builds character
<luckyruby>
lol
<nga4>
never lock yourself to just one tool
<bricker>
nga4: in irb it works as expected though: `irb$ Logger #=> uninitialized constant Logger ... require 'logger'; Logger #=> Logger`
<nga4>
makes you less plastic
<luckyruby>
I've been experimenting a little with erlang and node.js.
<nga4>
bricker: actually that snippet worked for me
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<bricker>
nga4: fuck me... I was running the wrong file -_-
<nga4>
require "logger"; Logger.methods.sort
<nga4>
bricker: happens to everyone
<luckyruby>
PEBKAC
<nga4>
luckyruby: node.js is unusually popular, I dont get it
<nga4>
luckyruby: now erlang, thats something worth your time
<luckyruby>
i rewrote the EM stuff in node.js. It was 30% faster.
<luckyruby>
i think it's good for certain size projects
<luckyruby>
like immediate short term gains
<luckyruby>
but I imagine large projects get messy with all the callback spaghetti
<nga4>
Everyone likes immediate short term gains
<nga4>
callbacks are for people who constantly like being on fire
<luckyruby>
same could be said about EM
<luckyruby>
which is why I looked into celluloid
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<luckyruby>
i wrote a celluloid version and it ran slower than the EM one
<nga4>
whatever you pick, pick the right tool for the job and do yourself the favor of making sure you can sell your skill later
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<nga4>
I picked up lua and c instead of erlang
<nga4>
I have mixed feelings about hte investment
<nga4>
but the requirements sort of forced my hand
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<nga4>
small devices
<nga4>
I'll be stuck where I am banking on other intellectual investments
<nga4>
for now
<luckyruby>
I might be entering the job market soon. Company is in the process of entertaining offers from buyers.
<nga4>
bummer
<nga4>
good
<nga4>
but also a bummer
<luckyruby>
and in the contract, it specifically said shareholder's relatives would be the first to go
<nga4>
ruby is something you can sell, mostly for rails
<nga4>
that sucks
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<nga4>
just be prepared for the agile shop experience
<luckyruby>
I wonder if they'll make an exception with me though considering I'm the most knowledgable person in the company re: our technology and how everything ties together.
<nga4>
two scrums a day with developers in europe
<nga4>
if they're buying out
<nga4>
they'll probably just consume the technology and use their engineers to integrate and rewrite
<luckyruby>
most likely, they won't be using what I've built but it'll help if they keep me around long enough to handle the transition
<nga4>
I would imagine youd be set for a while, but I'd be ready to play to the tune of some other engineer
<nga4>
point being, build skills you can market based on picking the right tools for the problems you intend to solve
<wakoinc>
but i've also learned that you can't go on with a new vision without cleaning house
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<luckyruby>
yea, I'd qualify myself more as a problem solver than a programmer
<nga4>
dont become the next generation of your java people
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<luckyruby>
yea, I look at some of my non productive coworkers (in their 40s, 50s). It's sad.
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<nga4>
well no one is a rockstar forever
<luckyruby>
the fire just isn't there
<luckyruby>
I tried teaching them RoR. All I got was a bunch of ruby written like Java.
<nga4>
I think a lot of it comes from, say, buying a house, having kids and having to work a less than completely interesting job to meet personal obligations
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<ben_h>
hi all
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<ben_h>
anyone else had issues installing gems on 2.0.0-rc1? i'm getting a Zlib::DataError with 'incorrect header check'; everything working fine on 1.9.3-p374
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<ssa>
the file exists and works when i run it in shell.
<ssa>
why is run trying the command "open"?
<ssa>
why is ruby trying*
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<ssa>
Anyone awake?
<ssa>
:-)
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<ssa>
ok figured. it was because i was passing stdout directory in opts, for which the directories didn't exist yet. that's all. thanks!
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<shevy>
hmm if I understand it
<shevy>
aha
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<shevy>
Kernel.system() and system() is equivalent. Does class Object include module Kernel? I wonder how it works that we can omit the leading "Kernel." part
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<whitequark>
shevy: Object.ancestors
<whitequark>
iow, yes.
<apeiros_>
shevy: all methods in Kernel are module_function's
<whitequark>
^ also that
<shevy>
wheee! apeiros is back! Xeago wake up!
<apeiros_>
not back
<shevy>
awww :( Xeago was saying you were ill
<whitequark>
also did you know that module_function is a visibility specifier? like public/private/protected
<apeiros_>
stupid influenza :(
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<apeiros_>
whitequark: kinda, it makes the instance method private
<shevy>
whitequark hmm not sure, I have not used module_function much
<apeiros_>
and the class method remains public
<apeiros_>
which is awesome because it means the instance method won't interfere with method_missing
<fflush>
salut bonjour
<apeiros_>
and which is why `extend self` with modules is a bad pattern
<apeiros_>
hi there fflush
<fflush>
hey
<whitequark>
apeiros_: it also affects the scope where it's invoked
<apeiros_>
yeah, that's a nice property. would be nice though if ruby made that available to other methods too
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<apeiros_>
you could emulate it using set_trace_func, but that sucks for obvious reasons :)
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* apeiros_
barks like a pit bull :(
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<whitequark>
apeiros_: it is very hacky :/
<apeiros_>
`protected do … end` would be a viable alternative IMO
<whitequark>
jruby has to resort to things like pattern matching by "block_given?" at compile-time
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<whitequark>
and adding guards
<whitequark>
for every method which accesses the scope of its parent
<apeiros_>
wow, that sounds odd
<apeiros_>
I'd expected a callback at `end`
<whitequark>
hm?
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<whitequark>
oh, that's less of a problem for things like public&friends, which could indeed be implemented like a hidden field in the class
<whitequark>
(but that would be less transparent, prone to breakage and not spec-compliant)
<whitequark>
block_given?, binding, and so on need to be handled with great care by the optimizer
<whitequark>
eg you cannot inline them blindly, etc
<apeiros_>
ok, somehow I'm lost
<whitequark>
see, there's normally no way to access &block (or any arbitrary arguments, for that matter) of caller in ruby
<whitequark>
but block_given? does this, because.
<whitequark>
(simply because)
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<whitequark>
thus, normally one would take advantage of the fact that methods cannot access arguments of the caller (eg in JS, one couldn't)
<apeiros_>
are we still talking about how private/protected/public/module_function work?
<whitequark>
but several magical methods break this assumption
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<whitequark>
apeiros_: block_given? is similar to private by that they both access the scope of the caller.
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<apeiros_>
ah
<whitequark>
however, for private&friends this is mostly irrelevant because class definition is not optimized
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<whitequark>
that simply doesn't make sense
<whitequark>
to optimize them, that is
<apeiros_>
funny, I never considered block_given? a method, always assumed it was a keyword. never actually checked…
<whitequark>
technically it is a method
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<Hanmac>
alias is not a method, but alias_method is one :P
<whitequark>
Hanmac: alias is not a method because you can alias globals
<whitequark>
which is a wtf of itself
<whitequark>
apeiros_: another strange "method" is local_variables
<ben_h>
ha, that is confusing. most editors highlight #block_given? as a keyword
<whitequark>
apeiros_: it shouldn't even exist imo. there is hardly a valid use case.
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<apeiros_>
whitequark: I love it in pry/irb
<whitequark>
also binding and proc/Proc.new
<apeiros_>
but yes, outside of debugging, there's indeed no use-case coming to mind
<whitequark>
the latter pair can also gain access to &block
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<apeiros_>
binding is very weird - obj.binding - what should it do?
<Hanmac>
whitequark: with C-Ext you can do more freaky stuff with global variables :D ... like virtual, readonly, hooked variables :D
<whitequark>
apeiros_: for debuggers, there should be a way to export a debugging context
<ben_h>
whitequark: yep :) there's no way to use it in real code that doesn't end with "... but you really shouldn't be doing that."
<apeiros_>
whitequark: re debugging context - that'd be lovely. I'd also love an Introspection module
<whitequark>
apeiros_: which would also have a desired effect of localizing inhibition of optimizations
<apeiros_>
which can't be modified and can introspect BasicObject's too
<whitequark>
I'll try to discuss that with @headius
<whitequark>
I already have two rfc's worth submitting though :S
<apeiros_>
^^
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<apeiros_>
ruby is a nice language - but there's so much which could be better
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<whitequark>
fortunately matz agreed to remove proc{}.binding
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<whitequark>
it has almost endless potential for abuse
<Hanmac>
apeiros_ make an feature or pull request :P
<apeiros_>
Hanmac: I'm somewhat disillusioned
<whitequark>
2.0 should really deprecate the block-less proc/Proc.new form
<whitequark>
I mean remove them finally
<apeiros_>
I made a simple patch to StringScanner, adding three methods (don't remember all, stuff that's present in MatchData) about 4y ago, afaik it's still not in
<apeiros_>
yupp, still not in
<whitequark>
apeiros_: 4y ago the process was different, I'd say.
<apeiros_>
you mean I should rinse and repeat?
<whitequark>
yes
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<apeiros_>
hm
<banisterfiend>
apeiros_: the common use is: proc.binding.eval('self')
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<banisterfiend>
admittedly it's used for crazy/k00 stuff, but it's fun
<whitequark>
if by "fun" you mean "prevents any optimization of procs whatsoever" I agree
<banisterfiend>
if they provided: proc.self
<banisterfiend>
that woudl be good enough
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* Hanmac
likes
<apeiros_>
whitequark: I assume the closure aspect of blocks/procs is also an issue wrt optimization?
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<whitequark>
apeiros_: you can deal with closures, as they're lexically local
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<whitequark>
apeiros_: but you can invoke #binding in any place, at any proc
<banisterfiend>
whitequark: things like mixico :)
<whitequark>
apeiros_: and you cannot really optimize locals if you have #binding
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<apeiros_>
whitequark: why?
<apeiros_>
MRI does not allow introduction of new locals via binding+eval
<whitequark>
apeiros_: but you have to store them on heap
<whitequark>
as opposed to registers/stack
<whitequark>
as you cannot get a reference to a stack slot in java
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<whitequark>
you have to store them on heap anyway if something else closes over them as well. but that's only rarely the case.
<whitequark>
(besides, there is inlining)
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<whitequark>
banisterfiend: mixico is ugh
<whitequark>
relying on nonportable features for minor syntactic niceties
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<banisterfiend>
whitequark: i just said it was fun, it's not a serious project, but it's cool
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<banisterfiend>
stop being so aggressive :)
<whitequark>
banisterfiend: right now I'm faced with a rails testsuite which runs for circa 5 minutes
<whitequark>
each fucking feature which gives up performance for some minor useless stuff is not going to amuse me
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<whitequark>
ruby really ought to have all the callstack-reflecting stuff in some separate (and optional) Instrumentation module
<apeiros_>
whitequark: I thought putting stuff in the register in modern C is more like a kind request at the compiler, but it'll do as it sees fit wrt optimization - no?
<whitequark>
apeiros_: first, how is that related to C?
<whitequark>
second, kind of: jvm places values in registers (if there's enough) or spills them on stack
<whitequark>
but that's not the problem
<whitequark>
if you *can* access the locals from outside, you *cannot* store them only in registers, because if you store them in a register, there's no way of accessing them from outside
<apeiros_>
whitequark: oh, you were only referring to optimizations in jruby/jvm?
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<whitequark>
apeiros_: yes, MRI is too stupid to take advantage of it
<whitequark>
I'm fairly certain that rbx has this penalty too
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<whitequark>
it isn't restricted by jvm, but properly implementing this stack juggling can be hard, and even if it is, you still lose some performance
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<whitequark>
fortunately, as I've said, matz has no objections to removing Proc#binding.
<charliesome>
banisterfiend: the debug inspector segv got fixed
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<whitequark>
also I wonder who came up with the idea of introducing call/cc to ruby
<whitequark>
because in a language which has threads, fibers and exceptions it is only useful for very few very insane tricks
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<whitequark>
(in e.g. scheme it is used to implement all of the above)
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<banisterfiend>
charliesome: cool
<banisterfiend>
charliesome: but it skips block frames right?
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<charliesome>
don't think so
<charliesome>
i think ko1 fixed it properly
<banisterfiend>
oh nice, last time i messed with it it seemed to miss a few frame types
<banisterfiend>
sweet
<charliesome>
don't quote me though
<banisterfiend>
just in time for the 2.0 release which is supposed to be sometime this month
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<rking>
charliesome: What's the status of Pry+better_errors, brah?
<banisterfiend>
charliesome: i can add support for it to binding_of_caller so u dont have to use a different API, though you've probably wrapped it already :)
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<charliesome>
banisterfiend: nah i haven't
<charliesome>
banisterfiend: if you added support for it to binding_of_caller that'd be super sweet
<charliesome>
rking: secret beta sort of
<charliesome>
rking: i don't want to enable it by default until i'm confident it works
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<rismoney>
p "MGMT-100".gsub(/-(.+)/, '\1') gives me MGMT100
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<Hanmac>
rismoney thats why i said that whitequark was wrong ...
<apeiros_>
do people actually ever use sub instead of gsub?
<whitequark>
apeiros_: I do
<apeiros_>
hah!
<whitequark>
but then again, I'm aware of abbrev in stdlib :p
<apeiros_>
hehe
<whitequark>
and of flip-flops
<apeiros_>
oh, nono, don't start with that
<whitequark>
and Proc.new
<apeiros_>
you'll get people confused
<whitequark>
sigh
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<whitequark>
I wish I knew less
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<apeiros_>
hm, Proc.new is one of the things that I learned only *years* after having started with ruby
<Hanmac>
flip-flops are 99.9% WTF
<rismoney>
oic ...cool beans. i was mucking it similar to whitequark.sigh
<whitequark>
Hanmac: flip-flops are 1500% WTF
<apeiros_>
assuming you mean the "no block given to new but to the method it is invoked within" behavior
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<whitequark>
apeiros_: and thread-local and frame-local pseudoglobals
<whitequark>
apeiros_: and the exact maximal amount of $123... vars
<whitequark>
which would be 262144 IIRC
<apeiros_>
whitequark: I wonder… in older rubies you could invoke methods via send if there was a hash collision
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<apeiros_>
+I wonder if that's still present…
<whitequark>
apeiros_: a hash collision?
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<apeiros_>
yes, if you had an alternative name which had the same hash value
<whitequark>
that sounds like a bug
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<apeiros_>
I guess ruby didn't bother to test for actual equality :)
<Hanmac>
apeiros_ how would you react if you see: achive_object << "*.cpp" ? what would you suspect?
<josh_keith>
anyone familiar with compiling ruby on linux?
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<apeiros_>
Hanmac: given your example I'd expect a glob expand but I'm not a fand of that
<whitequark>
apeiros_: plus 56-bit hash collisions aren't exactly easy to find, unless your hash function is FUBAR (I'm on 64-bit now)
<apeiros_>
*not a fan
<apeiros_>
Dir["*.cpp"] isn't hard. normalization should happen at the user side. or through explicit methods. IMO.
<whitequark>
it's also += then
<apeiros_>
whitequark: oh, I think somebody just ran ("a".."zzzzzzzzzz").find { |s| s.hash == someknownmethodshash }
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<apeiros_>
archive.add_glob "*.cpp"
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<josh_keith>
I'm trying to compile ruby without openssl and I've tried --without-openssl and --with-out-ext=openssl, yet the resulting binary still links libcrypt
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<whitequark>
apeiros_: that won't collide even without hashing at all
<whitequark>
I think
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<whitequark>
apeiros_: ah it will. but with three less z's it wouldn't
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<apeiros_>
o0
<Hanmac>
i am currently playing with my archive again ... you can do << "*.cpp" << Dir["*.cpp"] << /.*\.cpp/ , works all similar
<whitequark>
apeiros_: symbols are (machine_word_width-1) bytes wide internally
<apeiros_>
hm, I run the search for "puts", and of course, the code reliably found a collision - "puts"
<whitequark>
actually nevermind
<whitequark>
that's bullshit
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<apeiros_>
hrm, I wonder whether I remember the whole thing correctly, though
<apeiros_>
whitequark: maybe you misunderstood - of course "puts" and "puts" have the same .hash, so ("a".."zzzzzzzz").find { |x| x.hash == "puts".hash } returned "puts"
<whitequark>
apeiros_: no I meant a completely different thing
<apeiros_>
ah, ok
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<apeiros_>
hm, probably would be easier with a 32bit ruby
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<apeiros_>
bah, I don't have the patience to figure it out again, and most likely the behavior was 1.8 specific anyway
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<shevy>
nice Hanmac
<shevy>
Hanmac how to install your gem?
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<whitequark>
gem install hanmac
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<Hanmac>
not finish yet
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<shevy>
lol whitequark
<shevy>
now that would be something
<shevy>
meta-gems
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<shevy>
"install all of this users gems"
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<apeiros_>
hanmac install gem
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<apeiros_>
hm, doesn't work…
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<apeiros_>
sudo hanmac install gem
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<shevy>
hanmac dance lambada
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<apeiros_>
I think he prefers dancing lambda
<fuzai>
http://pastie.org/6030006 --- No matter what I do I can't get this string compare to test true and it looks like it should when I add a puts line to it. Could someone help me with this conditional?
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<apeiros_>
fuzai: pro-tip: don't use puts, use p
<fuzai>
ok
<apeiros_>
additionally I'd check for whether you're really dealing with strings (puts accepts anything that responds to .to_s)
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<apeiros_>
um, fuzai - = is not testing for equality
<fuzai>
the puts line is just outputting it for me
<apeiros_>
= is assignment, and technically bot['magicKey'] = botProfile['magic_key'] is even invoking []=
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<apeiros_>
you want ==
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<fuzai>
oh i see what you mean
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<fuzai>
wow i can't believe i missed that
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<fuzai>
but they still don't get into that code block
<fuzai>
i started with ==
<fuzai>
then i read online that i should be using .eql?
<fuzai>
so which one is it?
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<apeiros_>
for String it doesn't matter I think
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<fuzai>
and if they aren't strings
<fuzai>
and they very muc so have string data
<fuzai>
what could they be?
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<apeiros_>
fuzai: how about you just find it out? it's ruby. it's not like there was no way to figure that out…
<apeiros_>
also what code doesn't get executed?
<apeiros_>
seems the if clause works, otherwise it wouldn't print that puts of yours
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<fuzai>
thats what i'm trying to figure out
<fuzai>
when it looks to see if anything is in there, it should test true and retort with a @ and a number
<fuzai>
instead i get #
<fuzai>
from what the puts line says, whatever i test should be true
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<beaky>
programming in ruby is so much nicer than programming in C, C++, or Java
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<shevy>
yeah
<shevy>
that's the main reason why we have scripting languages
<shevy>
they made solving a task easier and simpler than in the other languages
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<apeiros_>
do we really still make that distinction?
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<aytch>
apeiros_: I definitely make that distinction. I can't do anything in C or .NET, but I can do scripting/small programs in Powershell, Python, and Ruby with ease
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<geggam>
many of the people writing code in c c++ and java ( java especially) think they can code when in fact they cannot
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<geggam>
in otherwords... try it you migth like it aytch
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<aytch>
I have enough of a hard time with the "easy" languages
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<aytch>
I'm really still learning how OO and other concepts. I've just been a sysadmin for years, so scripting is straightforward.
<aytch>
I only figured out functions ~1 year ago
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<shevy>
hmm when I have an array
<shevy>
I can use .match
<shevy>
but is there a way to also do a ".match_with_index"? I kind of need the elements where my filter applied to
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<shevy>
oops
<shevy>
I actually meant .grep
<shevy>
nevermind, I just run .each_with_index and collect the matches
<whitequark>
and it fact it couldn't nor does it need to
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<beaky>
ah
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<beaky>
I like ruby syntax, but is there a way to eliminate all those 'end's?
<whitequark>
no
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<whitequark>
use completion in your editor
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<beaky>
right
<swarley>
If you want space sensitive nesting you would want Python
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<shevy>
beaky you could use {} rather than do/end in all blocks
<beaky>
yeah I guess that will shave off a few ends, but eww curly braces :D
<shevy>
swarley unfortunately python forces a ':' at the end of a def ... as in "def bla(n):" :(
<swarley>
if you don't want do/end and you don't want {}..
<swarley>
what do you expect to get?..
<beaky>
something like Haskell :D
<shevy>
how is haskell solving it
<swarley>
Haskell is weird about it
<swarley>
But yes, it is space sensitive
<shevy>
ewwww
<swarley>
at the same time, that space sensitivity is more annoying than pythons
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<beaky>
yep
<shevy>
such a powerful language... and then it comes down to individual spaces...
<shevy>
it can be even more annoying than in python?
<swarley>
Yes.
<swarley>
You have to visually align in definitions
<beaky>
haskell is actually a curly-brace language, but if you use layout (i.e. whitespace sensitivity) the compiler will put them in there.
<shevy>
I hate copy/pasting into interactive python and get told:
<shevy>
IndentationError: expected an indented block
<sullenel>
shevy: lol
<swarley>
echo "example here" > python
<shevy>
beaky odd
<beaky>
from __future__ import braces => Error: Not a chance! :(
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<beaky>
ruby's syntax is one of the neatest I have seen even with all of the curly braces
<beaky>
s/curly braces/ends*
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<beaky>
and in rails it even reads like simple english :D
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<whitequark>
curly braces are for inline blocks, do..end is for multiline ones
<whitequark>
the fact that you technically could use them vice-versa doesn't mean you should
<beaky>
yeah I guess I should stick to convention
<shevy>
beaky yeah, a succint style of english
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<shevy>
this convention makes no sense
<swarley>
what convention?
<beaky>
I think there was an interview where Matz explained why ruby is the way it is
<shevy>
having to use do/end for blocks
<swarley>
You don't have to
<shevy>
beaky the one from 2003?
<beaky>
i think
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<mehwork>
even though you can omit parens in ruby, which is better to do: read_file(get_filename()) or read_file get_filename
<shevy>
yeah... it made me pick ruby over python
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<apeiros_>
whitequark: I still favor "curly braces for return value, do/end for side-effect"
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<shevy>
mehwork, I would keep the first () but omit the second
<whitequark>
mehwork: keep parens if it has even slightest potential for misinterpretation
<mehwork>
shevy even though get_filename isn't a variabl? read_file(get_filename) ?
<swarley>
apeiros_, that's what I do generally.
<shevy>
mehwork yeah
<whitequark>
apeiros_: I guess one could use both.
<mehwork>
seems inconsistent but i just want to know what the convention is
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<swarley>
use () when you need to.
<shevy>
mehwork but you can keep both () I just dont like to call methods without arguments + (), it looks visually strange... cat.meow versus cat.meow()
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<mehwork>
i see
<shevy>
conventions ... :P
<shevy>
I think python is able to enforce conventions
<shevy>
ruby is more easy going
<mehwork>
well python has pep8 which you can use as a validator
<whitequark>
shevy: believe me, academics are more than able to write exceptionally crappy python code
<shevy>
the only big convention I can think of right now is that class names and module names must start with an uppercased character
<whitequark>
even with pep8 and stuff
<mehwork>
but in this case it has to have parens
<whitequark>
it simply doesn't matter :/
<shevy>
man, I hate that in python3 they require you to use () in print
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<shevy>
print(5) vs print 5 what the...
<mehwork>
yeah
<whitequark>
shevy: having it as a keyword (keyword?) sucks even more
<mehwork>
shevy: but it can ake all kinds of amazing arguments. That's why
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<mehwork>
*take
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<shevy>
well in ruby you can cut it down, i.e. alias e puts; e 5 ... compare that to print(5)
<mehwork>
that said, they could have kept the normal print keyword adn used a different word for the function version, since most of the time people won't even use those args
<shevy>
hmm in python you can probably do e(5)
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<shevy>
ok so net-gain only one character actually :\
<shevy>
somehow I feel that python 3 is evolution backwards
<mehwork>
perl6 will be better than it. which is sad
<shevy>
hey
<mehwork>
subjectively better
<shevy>
perl5 killed perl6 :)
<shevy>
they got more momentum in perl5 than in perl6
<mehwork>
i think people will be standoffish at first but will come around because perl6 is amazing
<shevy>
on #gobolinux a perl dev said "I dont care about perl6" I asked why, he said because it is basically a completely different language
<mehwork>
it will be like ruby. no one cared until rails. Perl6 will allow for some amazing things to be made and then people will care
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<shevy>
:P
<shevy>
way to raise the expectation
<mehwork>
being a different language is a good thing in this case
<shevy>
then comes the big disappointment ...
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<mehwork>
i could be wrong, but i've been reading up on it and it simply has features that other languages don't
<mehwork>
powerful stuff
<shevy>
didnt it have that since 10 years ago already
<mehwork>
infinite lists, english grammars, etc
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<mehwork>
see rakudo.org
<mehwork>
also, ruby was used as inpiration
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<whitequark>
perl6 won't be
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<mehwork>
it has threads and concurrency and nonblockin i/o built in
<mehwork>
mats said if he could go back and change ruby it would be to get rid of the thread for concurrency
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<whitequark>
source?
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<mehwork>
whitequark: the book '7 languages in 7 days' interview with mats in chapter 1
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<mehwork>
don't get me wrong. Perl6 isn't going to likely get PHPers to jump over to it. It will be like python where it will attract hackers, scientists and general software engineers
<mehwork>
but only time will tell, idk
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<mehwork>
randal schwartz said at the very least people will try to immitate its grammars, like they did its regex, and want 'perl compatible grammars' in their language
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<whitequark>
people aren't attracted to neat language features
<whitequark>
people are attracted to stuff which solves their problems
<mehwork>
for instance, in perl6 you should be able to create a dsl that's just for a single class, and do it in a very readable simple way. Stuff like that
<whitequark>
note how there is no "better" in the last sentence
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<mehwork>
you can imagine the types of web, testing, etc frameworks that can come out of that
<shevy>
mehwork the problem with perl6 is that it promises to change the world, yet it fails to deliver up until today. I have to bootstrap and compile parrot by using perl 5. when I download ruby 1.9.3 I can compile it just straight, without needing to have ruby installed
<mehwork>
my point is that it will solve a lot of problems
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<mehwork>
shevy: apple took a long time to change the world too
<shevy>
it had steve jobs
<mehwork>
slow and steady wins the race and all
<whitequark>
apple didn't
<whitequark>
and that is a quote of Jobs if you don't believe me
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<mehwork>
i see no reason to hate on it. I'm neither a language fan boy or language hater. I loved perl5 when it came out. I grew to realize i only liked it to solve certain problems (of which it still is the best tool for the job even in 2013 sometimes)
<shevy>
perl 5 was better when larry was very active, now larry isn't as active anymore so perl 6 is a "community driven" effort. I really feel that most projects work better with visionnaires
<mehwork>
also perl inspired ruby
<shevy>
there is no need for hate, there are simply statements about perl 6
<mehwork>
so it makes even less sense for rubyists to hate on it. Inspiration alone is respectable
<shevy>
it is you who tries to introduce the word hate man
<whitequark>
oh right #ruby
<mehwork>
it would make sense to diss smalltalk more than ruby, if we're talkign practicalities
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<mehwork>
but no one does that because smalltalk somehow got a pass as a great language :p
<shevy>
I dont feel smalltalk ever was really important
<mehwork>
it's been fashionable to hate perl5 since 1999
<shevy>
but you were talking primarily about perl6, not perl5 :P
<whitequark>
smalltalk was important conceptually
<shevy>
I mean at least perl5 had a success story here!
<mehwork>
i'm just making an overall point
<whitequark>
after all it's the language in which OO was invented
<shevy>
yeah, smalltalk was like a bottle of ideas, you drink it, then throw the bottle away
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<whitequark>
there is also the whole "let's abandon the source" thing
<mehwork>
whitequark: but you can't objetively say that OO is more important than sane regex and the millions of important sys admin scripts that have helped shaped linux, etc that came out of perl
<whitequark>
I fail to understand how these people work without source control
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<mehwork>
it would be one thing if the language failed to ever do anything much. Like Io i can understand hating on :p
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<aytch>
millions of important sysadmin scripts that have destroyed sysadmin's livers.
<mehwork>
even though it is still a nice prototype syntax, which is enough reason to not hate on it, of course
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<whitequark>
sigh. OO is a structural concept, regexps are just a simple DSL for a common task
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<shevy>
whitequark code should evolve
<whitequark>
it's like comparing the concept of procedural programming with the concept of a macroassembler
<shevy>
I mean, git would never have happened with the linux kernel
<mehwork>
i'm just saying, don't be closed minded. If someone says a language has some cool features, try playing with them rather than listening to that voice that says "Well, my friends said perl6 is going to suck so i'm completely ripping it apart without trying it"
<shevy>
I mean *without
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<shevy>
and github would not have happened without git
<whitequark>
there's bitbucket. and anyway I need to go.
<mehwork>
i've seen enough of that in the php world where they rip every other language apart and soudn ignorant when they talk about how ruby or python sucks yet have never used them
<shevy>
and now that we have github, we can see that sourceforge has an awful usability layout
<mehwork>
heh
<mehwork>
poor sourceforge
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<shevy>
it's evolution
<shevy>
the weak get shreddered
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<mehwork>
weakness is a strange term in software
<mehwork>
sine php still exists
<mehwork>
and is more popular than ever
<shevy>
php has a few really great things going for it
<mehwork>
it's tribalism that matters
<shevy>
its focus on the www was a good thing
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<mehwork>
i don't think the 'best' thing wins by default
<shevy>
compare that to default ruby without rails... you have what? cgi
<shevy>
hmmmmmmmm cgi...
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<mehwork>
well python using wsgi
<mehwork>
ruby has rack
<shevy>
these are all afterthoughts
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<mehwork>
rails isn't perfect either
<mehwork>
limitations of the server side and http in general
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<aytch>
rails was like...the last thing I wanted to use ruby for.
<mehwork>
ditto
<aytch>
scripting and puppet were what brought me into Ruby
<mehwork>
like django in python is the last thing i'd want to use python for
<shevy>
the www is really the single one biggest influence nowadays, you have javascript becoming so important, you suddenly see bindings to GUI fall apart because of smartphones becoming so important, or ubunty unity, this utter disaster, makes only sense on a smartphone really
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<mehwork>
python brought me to ruby
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<mehwork>
it was like python only just an inch more fun to write
<shevy>
heh
<shevy>
I considered learning django
<mehwork>
and i can flow back and forth between the two without having to chose one over the other
<mehwork>
i did chose rails over django though :/ django is nuts
<havenn>
sweet, just got my Arduino and trivially made a script with Dino to blink out morse code on the built-in LED :D https://gist.github.com/4698578
<aytch>
I still prefer Python over Ruby, but only because Ruby's syntax makes me think like Yoda
<shevy>
I dunno, I dont like that rails is so huge
<aytch>
but Ruby has such nice frameworks that I keep coming back to it
<tgandrews>
the thing that wins is the one that at the time, given what has happened before best fulfils requirements. The given what has happened before is what people tend to forget
<mehwork>
shevy: i do, from a jobs perspective it allows more people to do ruby for a living
<shevy>
aytch I like python syntax, save for a few things that annoy me... explicit self is one of those
<mehwork>
i've been forced to do php for a living when python and ruby had no jobs I do NOT want to live in a world like that again
<shevy>
hehe
<shevy>
but all the jobs are web related!
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<mehwork>
everything is moving toward the web
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<mehwork>
it won't be long until we're all doing javascript. We already hare half doing js
<mehwork>
js isn't so bad though, when done right
<shevy>
havenn I like your methods... dit() dah() pause() :P
<shevy>
mehwork :(
<mehwork>
i just hate its syntax. Too many curlies and semicolons
<shevy>
so we could all remove the scripting languages save for js
<shevy>
and then js won not because it was better, but it was simply more in use and widespread
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<mehwork>
php gets a lot of crap but the js code on average is worse
<aytch>
someone needs to write Brainfuck on Rails
<aytch>
That way we can come together as a community, and really get a proper hate on
<mehwork>
well there is clojure mvc frameworks
<mehwork>
hackers have to separate themselves somehow even if it means pain
<mehwork>
it's less pain than swimming in the public pool
<havenn>
shevy: Now I need to get some fun stuff to plug into the Uno. Only so much fun to be had with a single LED... >.>
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<mehwork>
i'm still a ruby noob. I tried clojure and liked it but not enough for daily use. I'm picking ruby up faster than anything probably because i know python
<mehwork>
and perl
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<mehwork>
so far blocks are my favorite thing and i really like require_relative
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<kyle__>
If you connect using "ssh -lfoo -i path/to/some_key bar" would that be Net::SSH.start("bar",:username=>"foo",:host_keys=>["path/to/some_key"])?
<mehwork>
and the whole: x unless y conditions on the same line after the fact, more english. That's about it so far. Python has some stuff i like more too so it's hard to say one is better than the other overall
<kyle__>
using net/ssh that is.
<mehwork>
i havent used that gem but that seems like the same thing to me
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<becom33>
Im doing this socket script . the problem is the the commands are responsed with 250 OK . i wanna check them if the command is 250 OK or somthing else . cant do it with a if . is there a more elegant way of doing that ?
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* becom33
anyone ?
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<apeiros_>
becom33: why can't you do it with an if?
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<becom33>
well its not working with if . even it works with if . I was wondering maby there is some kind of a way to deal with this kind of response code without using if
<becom33>
apeiros_,
<IceDragon>
if command.include?("250 OK") #?
<IceDragon>
assuming its a string
<apeiros_>
becom33: it's hard to help with "it doesn't work"
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<openstandards>
hi all
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<havenn>
hey
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<openstandards>
i'm just trying to my first ruby program using the rb_wunderground gem and i'm getting back the results but i'm unsure on what to do next to process it into structured data
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<openstandards>
could you please just point me to some documentation to help the output is json
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<invisime>
sinatra > rails, imo.
<invisime>
oh. nvm.
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<invisime>
my scrolling was about an hour behind.
<invisime>
no one's still talking about that. XD
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<openstandards>
no prob :)
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<invisime>
though, to be fair, saying something like "sinatra > rails" is almost always on topic in here. XD
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<Xeago>
apeiros_: you feeling better?
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<Xeago>
Can the following sentence be rephrased to make it easier to read?: "Quality of search results cannot be measured in concrete values/units. For that reason, whether the new system improved the quality of search results is determined by a questionnaire."
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<pnkbst>
is there anything like cassandra with ruby?
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<ekr>
Xeago: maybe something like this? "The quality of search results cannot be measured in concrete values or units. A questionnaire will determine whether or not the new system improved the quality of search results."
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<Marc_Online_>
Good evening everyone! Lot's of people coming In and Out this channel but no one is really talking here. How come???
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<rking>
Marc_Online_: That's IRC for you. I have my client set to hide joins/parts/quits unless the user recently spoke (or I can toggle them on/off with Alt+= )
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<Marc_Online_>
Ok great, thanks for the tip. :-)
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<shevy>
Marc_Online_ yeah, I disabled this like 10 years ago with my client xchat here, otherwise it would be way too annoying to use IRC really
<shevy>
Marc_Online_ people are not always talking because they are busy doing other things :D
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<Marc_Online_>
Yep i noticed. They are going in and out this channel all the time. hahaha ;-)
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<apeiros_>
Xeago: not a bit :(
<Xeago>
ekr that would indicate that the questionnaire isn't held yet
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<Xeago>
apeiros_: pity :'(, get better soon!
<apeiros_>
headache like stupid, and roaring like a thunderstorm when I cough
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<apeiros_>
thanks
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<ekr>
Xeago: maybe "The questionnaire" would change the context, I'm guessing you reference it previously
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<Xeago>
huh?
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<ekr>
idk I'm not clear on the overall message I guess
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<ekr>
the 2nd sentence just seemed like it could be condensed a bit more to me
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<Xeago>
hmm, let me try to elaborate
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<ekr>
I re-read, are you suggesting a questionnaire is necessary to determine or if it a part of the process
<ekr>
part of the process already
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<Xeago>
well, as quality of serach results cannot be (easily) measured in values or units
<Xeago>
I am collecting opinions
<Xeago>
through the questionnaire
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<ekr>
ah ok
<Xeago>
and the result of that determines whether the new system improved the search-system, or not
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<ekr>
"The outcome of a questionaire determines whether or not the new system improved the quality of search results."
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<ekr>
something like that, I just think maybe make the sentence more active, less propositional phrases
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<advorak>
I have two arrays ary1,ary2; ary1.count == ary2.count; I want to create a hash where {ary1[x] => ary2[x], ...} for each x. Is there an existing solution/gem or do I need to concoct my own?
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<salonloewe>
Why does "10".to_i-1.times{|i| puts i } only print 0 ?
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<salonloewe>
"10".to_i-1 evaluates to 9 if I execute it without using times after that
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<Xeago>
salonloewe: methods on objects have a higher precedence than minus operations
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<salonloewe>
Xeago: oh I thought I tested that, thanks
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<salonloewe>
Any idea what is the shortes way for doing some calculation in the times block and adding them to a result which is printed in the end? At the moment I have to define a variable beforehand and use += on it every time and make and invocation to puts in the end
<Xeago>
you can do the calculation in a map?
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<Xeago>
or you can do ("10".to_i-1).times..
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<salonloewe>
Xeago: it's just that I have an array [0,1,2,..n] where I calculate for each number something and sum up everything at the moment: *(0..n).map{|i| compute(i)}.inject(:+) and I was thinking, maybe I can skip the auxiliary array and compute it in-place
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<Xeago>
you should use reduce tho
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<Xeago>
because you are reducing the amount of values