00:27 <simpson> Hm, *is* there a canonical way to write a Sandstorm-only app yet?

00:27 <simpson> Oh, I guess that was yesterday. Never mind.

00:34 <ocdtrekkie> simpson: What do you mean?

00:35 <simpson> ocdtrekkie: I mean an app that doesn't care about the Web, but only about Sandstorm compatibility.

00:35 <ocdtrekkie> This is probably the closest you'll get here: https://docs.sandstorm.io/en/latest/developing/handbook/

00:36 <ocdtrekkie> I don't think Sandstorm has a one-true-path way to develop an app for it, in terms of what technologies you use.

00:37 <simpson> Okay, then suppose I have, I dunno, Python with CGI. How would I make a Python-with-CGI app in a Sandstorm-first way?

00:39 <ocdtrekkie> I think regardless of the language you use, your goal is that the application is a single instance of the functionality you need, without managing it's own user database, and of course, entirely configurable via the web interface.

00:40 <simpson> Suppose my application is non-configurable, for simplicity.

00:40 <simpson> I suppose I want to know whether there's a Capn API that I can target rather than doing HTTP, primarily.

00:41 <ocdtrekkie> Ah. I know a few apps have done it, but I'm not sure there's a huge benefit.

00:41 <simpson> Monte's Capn support and HTTP support both suck, but I bet that I can improve one faster than the other.

00:42 <simpson> That's all, really.

00:42 <simpson> Also HTTP sucks~

00:45 <ocdtrekkie> I think the Collections app avoids using sandstorm-http-bridge, but I'm not sure how many others do.

00:46 <ocdtrekkie> Simple Chat might, but I think the same author later made SandChat using the bridge.

00:50 <ocdtrekkie> I assume those that have spent a lot of time reading comments in source code, since some of these files have more comments than code: https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm/blob/master/src/sandstorm/grain.capnp

00:56 <simpson> Indeed.

01:13 <kentonv> I'm back!

01:14 <digitalcircuit> Welcome back!

01:15 <ocdtrekkie> \o/

01:16 <kentonv> finally, a real keyboard

01:16 <ocdtrekkie> LOL, what keyboard did you have on your trip?

01:16 <kentonv> laptop... Dell copy-cat of Mac

01:20 <ocdtrekkie> Ah, those aren't that bad. The Surface Pro keyboard really bugs me after a while, MUCH worse than a laptop. :P

01:20 <ocdtrekkie> I've been eyeballing a Latitude 7285 to replace my Surface Pro 4, but haven't bought it yet.

01:20 <kentonv> well, I normally use a Kinesis, so any laptop keyboard will make me sad...

01:22 <ocdtrekkie> Oh, yeah, that's a big difference.

02:04 <dwrensha> \

02:05 <ocdtrekkie> o/

02:09 <coffeebird[m]> Does the kinesis have a trackball?

02:27 <kentonv> coffeebird[m], no, thank god

02:27 <kentonv> dwrensha, Google Hangouts notified me today that I missed a call from you... in 2014

02:29 <coffeebird[m]> It's nice to know we have some lead time before google gets around to using our data.

02:50 <dwrensha> kentonv: I promise I have not been engaging in any nontrivial time travel

03:04 <ocdtrekkie> lol

03:05 <ocdtrekkie> Since I don't use Chome, Android, or Gmail, and Hangouts has been gutted from G+, on rare occasion I'll check Hangouts to discover messages people sent me months ago.

03:05 <ocdtrekkie> Because Google won't bother to email me, or offer a way to email me, Hangouts notifications.

12:41 <xet7> Is someone online that can help me with enabling Wekan API at Sandstorm? https://github.com/wekan/wekan/issues/1279#issuecomment-377693993

12:42 <xet7> And how to set required permissions

17:09 <catern> I see that capnproto RPC has a notion of creating direct connections where possible when passing capabilities around multiple vats https://github.com/capnproto/capnproto/blob/master/c++/src/capnp/rpc.capnp#L93-L95 I see that this is known as three-vat-introduction in E/CapTP terminology. does anyone know of any other RPC systems that have a notion of this optimization? is there a standard term for this? (sorry if this isn't the right

17:09 <catern> place to ask questions about capnproto RPC)

17:13 <simpson> I don't have the answers but this is definitely the right channel for Capn questions.

17:14 <simpson> I know other systems, like Tahoe-LAFS, which have this arrangement, but unsurprisingly they call it 'introduction' and call the front piece the 'introducer' and so forth.

17:16 <catern> what other systems that you know of besides Tahoe-LAFS do that? (or maybe it's just Tahoe-LAFS)

17:24 <Zarutian_PI> catern: Hmm.. have you checked if Alan Karps E-speak has this 3vat granovetter introduction?

17:29 <catern> I have not, and can check; though I'm suspcious that if it does support it, it's just a consequence of being in the same E/CapTP/capabilities community; I'm more curious about more mainstream ugly systems

17:36 <simpson> The LD-OCAP work may soon be mainstream, and it's definitely ugly in some places~ https://w3c-ccg.github.io/ld-ocap/

17:36 <simpson> Kerberos is mainstream memetically, but it's not very commonly deployed. Nonetheless, the ticket system vaguely resembles an introduction pattern.

17:39 <ocdtrekkie> xet7: Does card-specific GETs work with the current Wekan API?

17:40 <ocdtrekkie> ...I didn't realize Sandstorm had a sample REST app. I may need to play with that, I still need to come up with a basic API server for my home automation software.

17:46 <ocdtrekkie> My uninformed guess is that there's something that needs to be done in sandstorm.js to make user permissions correctly work for API keys, since I don't think Wekan had an API that file was originally written.