<rqou>
the group that i described as "looks like homework"?
<azonenberg_work>
rqou: i'm not done tearing it apart yet
<azonenberg_work>
follow the thread :p
<prpplague>
azonenberg_work: sounds like you know your silicon manufacturing
<rqou>
we both kinda do
<rqou>
i think azonenberg_work is better at it, but i did study it
<prpplague>
rqou: ahh dandy
<prpplague>
now i know who to bother with questions
<prpplague>
hehe
<prpplague>
:P
<rqou>
azonenberg_work: seriously we need to just get working diy cvd/rie and a way to actually purchase spin on dopants
<rqou>
then we should be "basically done" :P
<prpplague>
rqou: you guys trying to get setup to do small batch stuff?
<rqou>
just for fun, not for production
<prpplague>
ahh
<rqou>
but we all need to get some "life" sorted out first
<rqou>
like azonenberg_work's friggin house renovation
<prpplague>
hehe, i'd love to hear about the progress and such
<prpplague>
i've been experimenting with qflow/magic stuff
<rqou>
fortunately, it seems all of "high-vacuum twitter" lives on the west coast :P
<prpplague>
and debating on signing up at efabless.com
<rqou>
azonenberg_work: oh btw i actually found out that @profanegeometry and i are basically neighbors. apparently "high-vacuum twitter" is very very geographically close
<prpplague>
qu1j0t3: i met her once and spoke with her on the phone about a dozen times
<prpplague>
qu1j0t3: i was working at TI when she was working at Valve, and we had some conversations about using the OMAP4 with some of the TI DLP tech for Valve's VR stuff
<cr1901_modern>
azonenberg_work: >despite having a KD2 callsign prefix i've never actually transmitted on a ham radio in region 2
<cr1901_modern>
I've done it... 4 times I think? My first contact was one of the W1AWs
<cr1901_modern>
But inertia and no place for an antenna basically means I don't do it.
<azonenberg_work>
cr1901_modern: the point is i dont live in region 2 anymore
<azonenberg_work>
and in fact i bought my radio after i moved here :p
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<cr1901_modern>
azonenberg_work: If I used Echolink, I could _probably_ find an Echolink node close enough with a cheap Baofeng radio to talk to you
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<azonenberg_work>
There are some folks who use echolink to talk to the PSRG repeater near here
<azonenberg_work>
WW7PSR
mkdir has joined ##openfpga
<mkdir>
hi
<azonenberg_work>
They have a node somewhere around there
<azonenberg_work>
And WW7PSR has a twice daily "9 o'clock net" at 0900 and 2100
<mkdir>
what are some good powerful FPGAs to buy?
<azonenberg_work>
On days when i go into seattle for work I normally tune into it and say hi if i can get a check-in through from my bike
<azonenberg_work>
mkdir: Lol
<azonenberg_work>
That's a difficult question without more info... FPGAs range from about $0.50 to $50000.00
<mkdir>
lol true
<azonenberg_work>
What are you doing with it?
<azonenberg_work>
Also, it's probably a question for ##fpga
<mkdir>
ooh
<mkdir>
hmm
<azonenberg_work>
this channel is specifically about open source software for FPGA development
<mkdir>
should i got there then?
<azonenberg_work>
Whereas ##fpga is for general technology discussion
<azonenberg_work>
I mean you can ask here too but you'll probably get more useful answers there
<mkdir>
true
<mkdir>
thanks
<mkdir>
very helpful
<azonenberg_work>
(feel free to hang out here if you're interested in the open software side of things for FPGAs, though)
<mkdir>
will do
<azonenberg_work>
The lattice ice40 family is i believe the best FPGA supported by open tools but it's tiny as FPGAs go... there is active development on ECP5 support but i dont know if it's quite useable yet
<azonenberg_work>
Xilinx 7 series parts are much larger and useable for pretty significant sized designs, but they're a lot further from being useable
<azonenberg_work>
a lot of the bitstream has been reversed but there's no actual toolchain for it yet
unixb0y has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<mkdir>
hmm
<mkdir>
how about the altera line?
<mkdir>
and how does spartan-6 differ
<mkdir>
from
<mkdir>
artix
<mkdir>
I mean
<mkdir>
spartan 7
<azonenberg_work>
Spartan6 is an older line that i dont recommend using ever, xilinx's EOL'd toolchain is the only way to target it
<azonenberg_work>
I like to describe it as xilinx's Windows ME
<azonenberg_work>
the product so bad that they killed the whole line off and rebooted it
<azonenberg_work>
Spartan-7 is a cut down virtex
<azonenberg_work>
it's not based on spartan6 at all
<azonenberg_work>
(at least, any more than xilinx's parts in general share common lineage)
<azonenberg_work>
Altera side, i believe there is basically zilch
<azonenberg_work>
rqou did some reverse engineering work for some of their older CPLDs
<azonenberg_work>
But i dont think there is anything for a modern altera FPGA whatsoever
<rqou>
for altera, the max ii/iiz/v are reverse engineered for the 240le part
<rqou>
which is supposed to be similar to a cyclone i
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<azonenberg_work>
If you want a modern FPGA family capable of nontrivial designs with a well-supported commercial toolchain plus active development toward an open source toolchain
<azonenberg_work>
7 series is the way to go
<rqou>
max10/cyc10lp/cyc10gx are in the pipeline eventually (tm)
<mkdir>
7 series?
<azonenberg_work>
Even though you cant do open toolchain dev on them yet, it's going to happen
<mkdir>
you mean xilinx 7 series?
<azonenberg_work>
Yes
<rqou>
i would not recommend going for 7 series at this point because the people working on it are disgusting
<mkdir>
how about artix-7?
<mkdir>
is that the same thing?
<azonenberg_work>
mkdir: 7 series is artix, kintex, virtex, and spartan7
<mkdir>
how does artix differe from spartan?
<azonenberg_work>
(and rqou has a bit of a personality mismatch with the devs of that project, as you can see :P)
<azonenberg_work>
If an open toolchain NOW is on your requirements list then you'd want to go with a lattice part supported by icestorm and/or nextpnr
<rqou>
I wouldn't call outright malicious behavior a personality mismatch
<azonenberg_work>
mkdir: Spartan-7 is the successor to Spartan-6 LX, logic with no gigabit transceivers
<azonenberg_work>
Artix-7 is the successor to Spartan-6 LXT, logic plus gigabit transceivers
<azonenberg_work>
they just renamed the familes
<mkdir>
oh
<azonenberg_work>
then they forked off the low end Virtex and renamed them Kintex
<azonenberg_work>
But as far as i can tell, a kintex7 is almost the same as a virtex7, just less gates
<azonenberg_work>
performance of the individual logic blocks appears almost identical
<rqou>
until you get up to the SLR parts?
<azonenberg_work>
Artix and spartan are basically the same performance, just a question of if you need transceivers
<azonenberg_work>
in fact our analysis indicates that some artix and spartan SKUs are the same die, just different bond-outs
<cr1901_modern>
hmmm...
<azonenberg_work>
(this was the case for spartan6 too, you can see a transceiver-shaped cutout in the LUT array for the non-transceiver parts)
<rqou>
hmm azonenberg_work "fun" question: do any virtex SLR slices match up with any other parts in the family?
<azonenberg_work>
Kintex is definitely faster than spartan
<azonenberg_work>
But kintex to virtex just buys you more luts and faster transceivers
<azonenberg_work>
rqou: I believe that there are only a handful of virtex7 SLR dies
<azonenberg_work>
and they just mix and match
<azonenberg_work>
same with ultrascale parts
<azonenberg_work>
i believe the vu9p is three copies of the same SLR die and the vu5p is two
<rqou>
but none of the SLR subcomponents match any other SKUs?
<azonenberg_work>
all one die
<azonenberg_work>
just a different interposer
<azonenberg_work>
i havent crunched all the numbers to confirm but i think i remember somebody saying that they were the same logic die
<mkdir>
so spartan 7 is basically a good powerful
<rqou>
but not the same logic die as e.g. a kintex?
<mkdir>
board
<mkdir>
since the logic can probably also be ported to virtext?
<mkdir>
virtex
<azonenberg_work>
mkdir: Generic HDL not using any FPGA-specific features ports very easily
<mkdir>
ah
<mkdir>
very good to know
<azonenberg_work>
If you use FPGA specific stuff like PLLs and fancy I/O cells you are usually locked to a vendor and family
<mkdir>
how much is virtex 7?
<azonenberg_work>
But xilinx parts are designed to allow smooth scaling between the different lines
<rqou>
many kilobucks :P
<azonenberg_work>
so its not that hard to port
<mkdir>
also is kintex more powerful than spartn7?
<azonenberg_work>
Yes
<azonenberg_work>
I dont know off the top of my head what the entry level v7s cost
<azonenberg_work>
Artixes range from about $25 to $300 iirc
<azonenberg_work>
Kintex starts at $100ish and runs up to a few thousand
<rqou>
azonenberg_work: heh, altera mentions you can port netlists from cyclone i to max ii :P
<azonenberg_work>
Virtex pricing definitely starts in the four digit USD range
<rqou>
as long as you don't use brams
<azonenberg_work>
and runs up to the mid five
<cr1901_modern>
The largest Virtex has something like 20 MegaBYTES of block RAM lol
<rqou>
except they usually have proprietary programmers and programming algorithms
<mkdir>
altera and xilinx are the only worthy starters right? btw long ago i used the spartan 6
<azonenberg_work>
rqou: Many of the more modern ones are FTDI based
<mkdir>
but it's been a while since i did that
<mkdir>
and that's why i'm asking the question im asking
<rqou>
ime ice40 is comparable speed but smaller
<azonenberg_work>
and while the MCU based programmers are proprietary, they have a binary blob SDK
<rqou>
oh wait no
<azonenberg_work>
that you can use
<rqou>
you said s6
<azonenberg_work>
mkdir: lattice ice40 is tiny but well supported for small stuff by open tools
<rqou>
ime ice40 is comparable speed to s3e
<azonenberg_work>
ECP5 is competitive size to a small to midrange spartan i think
<mkdir>
does altera have anything like spartan 7?
<mkdir>
i should probably just stick to xilinx otherwise right?
<rqou>
mkdir: if you want to wait and/or annoy me continuously until i RE it, cyc10lp
<rqou>
you can get the new arduino i guess
<rqou>
iirc pricing is in the tens to low hundreds of USD for parts?
<mkdir>
well sorry just trying to find something
<rqou>
max10 is similar and a bit cheaper/smaller
<rqou>
with built-in flash
<rqou>
max v is cute and smol but much more limited
<rqou>
it's one of the most "unofficially upgradable" families I've seen though
<rqou>
:P
<rqou>
ok brb driving
<mkdir>
hmm
<mkdir>
azonenberg_work: also what tools will i need?
<mkdir>
software and hardware?
<mkdir>
and you don't have to answer this stuff if you're busy
<mkdir>
i do appreciate the help though
<mkdir>
uhhh
<mkdir>
Vivado is so expensive
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<mkdir>
azonenberg_work, you still there?
<mkdir>
azozenberg friend
<mkdir>
azonenberg_work
<shapr>
I still want an ecp5 beaglewire
<mkdir>
shapr
<mkdir>
you do fpga dev right?
<shapr>
nope
<shapr>
thought about it once
<shapr>
mkdir: do you do fpga dev?
<mkdir>
well
<mkdir>
i am starting to
<mkdir>
i did a while back
<mkdir>
but not recently
<mkdir>
now i'm looking at what I need to buy
<shapr>
should be exciting
<prpplague>
a real hootenanny
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<mkdir>
hotenanny
<mkdir>
that's so funny
<mkdir>
is there a free vivado
<mkdir>
not a trial
<mkdir>
just a free v
<mkdir>
?
<rqou>
there should be a "web edition" that's free but limited in what parts you can use
<mkdir>
how much is vivado?
<rqou>
no idea, never actually paid for it
<rqou>
i think several people here have "improved" editions
<rqou>
whitequark?
<mkdir>
what do you mean by "improved"
<mkdir>
also Digilent says this: Vivado Design Suite voucher not included - Vivado Design Suite Edition is available for free download (Vivado WebPACK).
<rqou>
what do you think? ;)
<rqou>
yeah
<mkdir>
stole
<rqou>
the webpack version is free
<mkdir>
oh what's the difference between webpack and regular?
<rqou>
it doesn't support the fancy expensive parts
<mkdir>
hmm i guess i should check if i need that
<rqou>
you probably don't
<rqou>
the parts that aren't supported are all multi-kilobucks :P
<whitequark>
rqou: anyone who wants it should just go and patch two functions...
<mkdir>
respect
<mkdir>
tahnks
<mkdir>
very helpful
<mkdir>
i'm about to get my spartan 7
<mkdir>
yeah boiii
<mkdir>
friend, also Arty S7-50T vs Arty S7-25T ?
<rqou>
O_o mkdir are you a student?
<mkdir>
yes
<rqou>
whee, join the "academia" club :P
<mkdir>
you too?
<mkdir>
how did you know?
<mkdir>
cause i'm newb?
<rqou>
your ip address belongs to Dartmouth
<mkdir>
yes in the library
<mkdir>
lol
<rqou>
anyways, awygle, azonenberg_work, and i are the fancy academics
<rqou>
whitequark is the anti-academic :P
<mkdir>
how did you know the ip was Dartmouth?
<rqou>
whois
<mkdir>
you guys are profs?
<rqou>
nah
<rqou>
not that fancy
<mkdir>
haha
<mkdir>
phds?
<mkdir>
students
<rqou>
not that fancy either :P
<mkdir>
Masters?
<rqou>
azonenberg_work has the piled higher and deeper :P :P
<rqou>
i have a masters
<mkdir>
nice
<rqou>
feel free to call azonenberg_work "Dr. Zoidberg" :P
<prpplague>
hehe
<mkdir>
lol
<mkdir>
where you guys at?
<whitequark>
i dont even have a bs :p
<rqou>
hence the anti-academic :P :P
<mkdir>
whitequark: you work in industry?
* prpplague
has a phd from the school of hard-knocks... summa cum laude
<rqou>
whitequark and clifford are the anti-academics who are just as good at doing "academia things" but don't have the fancy piece of paper
<mkdir>
mad respect
<mkdir>
rqou: what does your workstation look like?
<rqou>
a giant mess :P
<mkdir>
I'm sure it has like 5 - 7 fpgas, but what else?
<mkdir>
scope? multimeter and soldering iron? do i need ny of that?
<rqou>
it actually doesn't look like that
<rqou>
because moving sucks
<whitequark>
mkdir: yeah
<whitequark>
if i got a degree it'd be in bioengineering
<whitequark>
but fpgas are ok too
<awygle>
rqou: I resent that lol
<mkdir>
lol
<rqou>
resent what?
<awygle>
I only have a bs and I'm fine with that
<rqou>
i never said it wasn't?
<mkdir>
rqou: do I need anything aside from a dev board and vivado? just want to so that i can buy it all now
<awygle>
And I extremely don't identify as an academic
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<rqou>
awygle: but you also went to $FANCY_SCHOOL :P
<rqou>
mkdir: i highly recommend getting a chinese saleae logic clone
<rqou>
but yeah, mkdir: do what whitequark said and get a good/better one too
<mkdir>
awygle: so basically a cheap scope?
<whitequark>
if you use a 24 mhz scope
<whitequark>
the fastest signal you could observe is going to be like 4-6 mhz
<whitequark>
which is dumb
<awygle>
mkdir: the main difference is you can't diagnose anything analog. So power supplies, crosstalk, EMI.
<whitequark>
i routinely run out of bandwidth on my 100 mhz one
<mkdir>
do i need a logic analyzer if i get a scope?
<prpplague>
yea 200MHz is really good "sweet spot"
<whitequark>
mkdir: they're for completely different tasks
<rqou>
500 mhz scope i didn't have to pay for ftw :P
<mkdir>
ah
<whitequark>
a logic analyzer is for debugging digital buses
<prpplague>
mkdir: all depends on how many signals and type you are looking at
<awygle>
For FPGAs you basically only need a logic analyzer (unless you use a garbage bidirectional level shifter)
<whitequark>
a scope is for debugging analog stuff
<whitequark>
lol awygle
<whitequark>
burn
<mkdir>
hmm
<mkdir>
hoom hum
<mkdir>
ty
<awygle>
whitequark: self-owns are my specialty
<whitequark>
awygle: i needed one when debugging a smia camera
<mkdir>
and i may get some breadboard and wires for kicks but not sure if i need it
<mkdir>
lol,
<whitequark>
cuz its like 60 mhz
<whitequark>
and i needed to look at the eye
<awygle>
ah
<whitequark>
sublvds etc
<rqou>
personally i hate breadboards
<rqou>
but i occasionally use one
<rqou>
very rarely
<awygle>
yeah sublvds is basically analog
<whitequark>
i use breadboards all the time
<whitequark>
solderless
<whitequark>
plug like 20 mhz signals into it
<mkdir>
i mean they can be helpful for extra space
<whitequark>
it breaks hilariously but sometimes works
<mkdir>
solderless breadboard, what that?
<awygle>
I use them sometimes. More often lately.
<mkdir>
oh
<whitequark>
they're not really rated over maybe... 1 mhz
<mkdir>
the plug ones
<whitequark>
google it
<rqou>
i usually use jumper wires or just direct soldering
<awygle>
When I was doing RF it was obviously just no
<whitequark>
awygle: i remember when i made a hv psu
<whitequark>
at like 5 A
<whitequark>
assembled it on a breadboard
<awygle>
Unless I wanted to add like, a badly tuned slow wave filter or something
<rqou>
breadboards are like randomly sprinkling several pF capacitors all over your circuit
<rqou>
:P
<whitequark>
awygle: to its credit it lasted a few hours
* awygle
really wants to do a slow wave design
<whitequark>
but it melted very badly eventually
<awygle>
whitequark: lol awesome
<awygle>
how hv?
<mkdir>
kk nything else my friends? or am i good? heres the list: spartan 7 dev board, soldering iron + solder, logic analyzer, scope, breadboard + wires, multimeter?
<whitequark>
cuz the transformer heated up from core losses
<prpplague>
whitequark: hehe
<whitequark>
i think it went to maybe 3-5 kV
<whitequark>
unregulated
<whitequark>
just an LLC topology
<awygle>
mkdir: that seems like enough to be getting on with
<rqou>
at least you weren't like the idiots that somehow managed to melt the university's fancy breadboard-with-built-in-sig-gen-and-scope :P
<awygle>
As you specialize your interests you'll see if you need specialized equipment or anything
<awygle>
Power supply is useful, maybe
<whitequark>
yeah get a lab PSU
<mkdir>
hmm kk ty
<mkdir>
power supply
<whitequark>
i prefer switches, others swear by linear ones
<rqou>
warning: most of the chinesium ones are not very good
<whitequark>
i had a chinese linear psu go into wild oscillation once
<whitequark>
and i disassembled it
<rqou>
they can generate massive power spikes switching on/off
<awygle>
I should do a power supply design sometime, I've never done anything very complicated in power electronics
<whitequark>
and it actually had a short between line and ground
<mkdir>
can you link me awygle
<whitequark>
or maybe no
<whitequark>
36Vac and ground
<whitequark>
something insane
<whitequark>
clearly has been designed by an idiot
<azonenberg_work>
you get ~2 updates per second across all channels when polling the i/v
<whitequark>
don't get usb oscilloscopes
<whitequark>
ever
<azonenberg_work>
while the front panel LCD is a lot faster
<whitequark>
useless pieces of shit
<rqou>
lol
<whitequark>
get a scope with a real display and real knobs
<awygle>
lol. but yes, true
<rqou>
meanwhile NI's ipad one seems to actually kinda work
<rqou>
totally overpriced though
* awygle
retreats back into "family in town"
<whitequark>
rqou: you can take my knobs from my cold dead hands
<awygle>
welcome to the channel mkdir
<azonenberg_work>
whitequark: i want a scope with no display and no knobs
<azonenberg_work>
And no usb port :p
<whitequark>
though i personally don't subscribe to the idea that you need one set of knobs per channel
<rqou>
azonenberg_work: oh, you mean an NI product :P
<whitequark>
at 4 channels that's unwieldy
<whitequark>
also, 2channel scopes are useless :p
<azonenberg_work>
rqou: I want four SMAs, a QSFP+, and a gray metal 1U case
<whitequark>
(joking)
<mkdir>
lol
<mkdir>
hmm this power supply is so expensive
<rqou>
i have a tds3054 that i didn't pay for; it's pretty great :P
<mkdir>
thanks for linking though awygle
<whitequark>
azonenberg_work: i want something i can chunk into my luggate and have it working
<azonenberg_work>
mkdir: Define expensive
<mkdir>
like
<mkdir>
3k
<rqou>
really shallow sample depth though
<awygle>
azonenberg_work: someday I'll convert you to 0.5U
<mkdir>
$3k
<whitequark>
mkdir: rigol scopes are nice
<whitequark>
cheap and they have a loooot of sample depth
<whitequark>
like 24M
<azonenberg_work>
mkdir: ok wow that actually is a bit pricey
<awygle>
1054z is what I have
<rqou>
ping q3k regarding siglenthax?
<whitequark>
you can also buy the cheapest model and unlock the better features in software
<whitequark>
they have keygens
<mkdir>
anything cheaper mates?
<awygle>
Scope wise
<whitequark>
awygle: 1074z
<azonenberg_work>
mkdir: I have two of these https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMC8042/DC-Power-Supplies-/-Lab-Power-Supplies/ in a 2U rack case
<azonenberg_work>
So total of 4 channels
<whitequark>
that works as 1104z :p
<mkdir>
ok ty
<awygle>
whitequark: well yes lol
<awygle>
that's why I got them
<whitequark>
don't listen to azonenberg all his solutions are absurd overkil
<azonenberg_work>
If you want a big step up from the chinesium power supplies i highly recommend these
<whitequark>
you don't need them at this point
<azonenberg_work>
But there are plenty of lower end options
<mkdir>
azonenberg_work: this is my purchase list atm: spartan 7 dev board, soldering iron + solder, logic analyzer, scope, breadboard + wires, multimeter, power supply
<azonenberg_work>
mkdir: Yeah this is overkill if you're at that level
<mkdir>
anything else before i can end my shopping spree?
<rqou>
oh yeah btw mkdir in case you haven't noticed this channel is also a pretty good "unofficial upgrade" channel :P
<azonenberg_work>
mkdir: What are you planning on soldering?
<azonenberg_work>
That will really determine your shopping list :p
<rqou>
azonenberg_work: he's a newb dartmouth student :P
<whitequark>
rqou: try not discussing xilinx or they'll send a dmca takedown again
<azonenberg_work>
and fwiw i have not breadboarded a circuit in *years* except for when teaching people
<whitequark>
annoying fucks
<mkdir>
true lol
<rqou>
whitequark: wait what?
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<mkdir>
well i may need to interface with other boards
<azonenberg_work>
mkdir: I just spin boards :p
<mkdir>
which is why included the soldering iron and breadboard
<azonenberg_work>
oshpark is cheap
<azonenberg_work>
breadboards have garbage signal quality at any sane speed
<mkdir>
true, but you don't spin fpga boards, do you ?
<rqou>
so there's somehow a die shrink of the sk9822 which is itself a die shrink of the original apa102
<rqou>
hashtag china
<awygle>
oh i've actually used this thing. sort of.
<whitequark>
it's a really nice chip. it has power, usb, boot i2c, and a 32-bit bus to the FPGA
<awygle>
it was on a dev board
<whitequark>
that's it
<awygle>
whitequark: have you considered doing the "abuse rloc to pre-par larger circuits" trick on glasgow?
<whitequark>
rloc?
<rqou>
i never really liked cypress parts since they're pretty expensive and complicated and not particularly open, but i suppose it's still cheaper than the giant switch+uc hack that i had in mind
<awygle>
relative location constraints
<whitequark>
rqou: huh? how are they not open
<whitequark>
you get the complete datasheet without NDAs or anything
<whitequark>
even for FX3
<whitequark>
even though they insist on using their framework for some stupid reason
<rqou>
psoc for one isn't open
<rqou>
i thought the framework was closed?
<rqou>
for fx3
<whitequark>
oh i never looked, i won't use it anyway
<rqou>
good luck implementing usb-ethernet lol
<whitequark>
what's the problem?
<rqou>
step 0) which protocol would you like
<whitequark>
i could implement usb-ethernet even on current glasgow
<whitequark>
i actually might
<rqou>
rndis, cdc-ecm, or a clone of the asix chips?
<whitequark>
rndis and cdc-ecm
<rqou>
different ones give you support for different subsets of platforms
<prpplague>
rqou: not always futile, but certainly takes skill to legally bring their feet to the fire
<rqou>
i mean, i've had this discussion with rob landley regarding busybox gpl enforcement, and he has also given up
<whitequark>
oh?
<rqou>
basically he found that most vendors, after massive effort, would drop a tarball containing either an unmodified busybox or a busybox with modifications so ugly they weren't even worth cleaning up to be upstreamed
<prpplague>
rqou: yea, a lot of the chinese markets are difficult to enforce
<prpplague>
rqou: how is ol' rob, i have seen him in a while
<rqou>
he was doing the j-core/SEI thing for a while
<cr1901_modern>
He frequents #j-core
<rqou>
then Business(TM) happened
<prpplague>
cr1901_modern: ahh yea i would expect that
<cr1901_modern>
... Jesus, it didn't even register until now
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<florolf>
rqou: re callsign databases vs gdpr: at least the bundesnetzagentur (the german fcc-counterpart) publishes a complete list of all callsigns<->real names (you can opt out of having your address listed)
<rqou>
apparently Yahoos can't park but Lockheed-ers can't even drive properly
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<rqou>
whee, i am now using AS1668 (at $WORK)! retro low AS numbers ftw :P
<azonenberg_work>
rqou: i used to work for AS91
<azonenberg_work>
so... :P
<rqou>
well Berkeley is AS25 so i still win :P
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<gruetzkopf>
1668.. AOL TDN?
<shapr>
I think this channel is more fun than the 'real' fpga channel
<qu1j0t3>
shapr: we can change this!
<rqou>
gruetzkopf: welcome to working for the company of legacy :P
<shapr>
eh, I'm happy with this channel
<gruetzkopf>
i'm a AOL customer :P
<rqou>
lol nice
<gruetzkopf>
(still nothing faster than my legacy 2MBit ADSL in my area..)
<rqou>
wait is your ADSL AOL?!
<gruetzkopf>
yep
<rqou>
wtf!!
<gruetzkopf>
well, technically telefonica by now (and it's bitstream access, where the line is terminated by Deutsche Telekom and ATM-forwarded)
<rqou>
that's neat
<rqou>
lol you seem to have a better idea of how this works than i do, and i work here :P
<gruetzkopf>
iirc we've started on AOL dialin in 1998?
<gruetzkopf>
(i'm always looking for old telco gear (especially X.25 and ATM these days))
* Miyu
figured someone had to be German to still have 2 MBit ADSL
<Miyu>
even remote Polish villages have 1 Gb fiber these days
<Miyu>
:)
* qu1j0t3
is 6 Mbit/sec ADSL and I am fine with it :)
<rqou>
gruetzkopf: well, lots of stuff is slated for decomm but i don't know if i can snag any of it (probably not :( )
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<rqou>
gruetzkopf: i probably currently have more bandwidth than actual AOL customers :P
<mithro>
Guess you have never been to Australia...
<cr1901_modern>
I've heard horror stories about AUS
<mithro>
We pioneered pay per gigabyte downloaded
<cr1901_modern>
Isn't it basically a monopoly down there for Internet?
* qu1j0t3
isn't in Aus, but yes, data is very expensive there generally
<rqou>
let's just say that a while back i discovered that even our corp network sucks in Australia
<qu1j0t3>
and IT are a pack of drongos
<rqou>
gruetzkopf: hey, since you seem to be really familiar with telco internals, i have a question for you
<rqou>
do you think you can poke around and figure out whether $WORK still owns a rack of modems in a dusty corner somewhere? :P
<rqou>
or is this also terminated by the phone company?
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<pie__>
gruetzkopf just knows too much about telco :P
<pie__>
also im confused
<pie__>
why does germany have AOL
<pie__>
well, I guess I just always figured thats an american only company
<jn__>
why does $country have Deutsche Telekom?
<jn__>
(the ...T. company)
<rqou>
hey, at least Telekom isn't quite as unpopular as the red checkmark company that are the corporate overlords
<qu1j0t3>
LOL
<rqou>
yeah, i (indirectly) work for the red checkmark company so something something glass houses
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<azonenberg_work>
Miyu: my parents are getting cable soon for the first time
<azonenberg_work>
until then, they had ADSL that was, if memory serves me right
<azonenberg_work>
864K down x 192K up
<Miyu>
wow :)
<rqou>
yeah but everybody knows that "American exceptionalism" means that we're always the most assbackwards
<shapr>
USA internet is not that great
<shapr>
Sweden had $100 a month 100Mbit fiber to 90% of the country in the early 2000s
<Miyu>
I don't think I have ever met a satisfied US internet customer
<Miyu>
though some seem to have resigned themselves to $200/month for terrible service with the forced addition of lots of TV channels
<Miyu>
:)
<Miyu>
and random monthly charges being added by the ISP
<azonenberg_work>
Miyu: lol this is what happens when you run it as a business and not a regulated utility :P
<azonenberg_work>
i'm getting business cable at the new location, voice + data but no TV
<azonenberg_work>
for something like $180ish a month?
<azonenberg_work>
and its going to be 75M down x 15M up or something silly
<azonenberg_work>
(it's almost impossible to get halfway decent upstream performance anywhere in the us)
<rqou>
but but states rights and relaxed regulations for businesses are like in the Bible or something right? /s
<rqou>
also guns
<rqou>
Europeans have just never tasted true FREEEEEEEEEDOM /s
<qu1j0t3>
wow trollerific
<rqou>
thanks :P
<qu1j0t3>
Free-fire Fridays
<azonenberg_work>
rqou: despite what the current politicians may have you believe
<azonenberg_work>
a right to self-defense and restrictions on predatory monopolies are not in any way mutually exclusive
<azonenberg_work>
It's just impossible to find anyone who wants both running for any US political office :p
<rqou>
hey you're a white male, why don't you run for office? :P
<rqou>
just put on a suit or something and you'll fit right in :P :P
<azonenberg_work>
rqou: i'd meet the same fate as bernie, i think
<azonenberg_work>
Not dirty enough, unwilling to play the game and bribe the right people
<azonenberg_work>
so you get nowhere
<shapr>
that's why I don't get into politics
<qu1j0t3>
shapr: You just haven't found the right investors!
* azonenberg_work
has zero chance of ever getting into politics until and unless they introduce the "prostitution policy" for political campaigns
<azonenberg_work>
Prostitution is a great precedent for restrictions on political activism, as absurd as it may sound
<azonenberg_work>
Because it is an example of an act that is legal between consenting adults until money changes hands
* azonenberg_work
wants to see a policy where you can endorse any political candidate you want, but accepting any compensation to do so is a federal felony
<azonenberg_work>
For both the payer and the payee
<shapr>
er, huh
<shapr>
+1 insightful
<qu1j0t3>
and then how about severing the metaphor by decriminalising sex work
<azonenberg_work>
So if a newspaper runs a full-page ad for your campaign, the editor of the paper and your campaign chair go to prison
<pie__>
all of a sudden im not actually sure how youd fund a capmaign though?
<azonenberg_work>
qu1j0t3: it doesnt matter, because the legal precedent is set
<azonenberg_work>
i.e. it is possible for an act to be legal only if not paid for
<azonenberg_work>
Even if that particular act becomes legal to buy, the precedent remains
<azonenberg_work>
pie__: thats the point, you don't fund campaigns
<pie__>
azonenberg_work, makes sense i guess
<azonenberg_work>
Once you get enough signatures on a petition (collected by unpaid volunteers) you are listed on the ballot
<azonenberg_work>
News media can interview you and do a story on your platform
<azonenberg_work>
But you can't pay them to get more coverage than the other guy
<whitequark>
i think none of the FOSS toolchains are even close to supporting them
<whitequark>
and it'd be kind of really awkward with migen too
<pie__>
azonenberg_work, ah.
<azonenberg_work>
Possibly add an additional "common carrierr" restriction preventing media from exercising discrimination with who they do stories on.
<azonenberg_work>
i.e. if you run a story about a candidate you also have to run stories about the opposition of similar length
<pie__>
sounds good to me
<whitequark>
azonenberg_work: counterpoint: this obligates media to run stories about fringe fascists
<whitequark>
thus giving them a platform and a recruitment tool
<azonenberg_work>
whitequark: assuming said fascist has enough votes on the petition to get on the ballot, they have the same right to run for office as anyone else
<azonenberg_work>
And have people laugh in their face about how nasty of a person they are, but hey
<daveshah>
whitequark: the nextpnr backend has full support for relative constraints, it even uses them for carry chains
<whitequark>
daveshah: whoa
<whitequark>
docs?
<daveshah>
it literally just needs some attribute syntax to be added
<whitequark>
ha, that's an interesting way to use C++
<whitequark>
I like it
* azonenberg_work
remembers he REALLY needs to get nextpnr ported to greenpak and coolrunner
<rqou>
hopefully before i get annoyed enough to write ShinyKinglerPAR
<gruetzkopf>
is kingler in the mega evolution list? :P
<rqou>
idk actually
<rqou>
Kingler is supposed to be a Rust reference
<rqou>
shiny kinglers are green, like greenpak :p
<whitequark>
what's a kingler anyway
<whitequark>
oh god a pokemon
<rqou>
lol yeah
<rqou>
why "oh god"?
<openfpga-bot>
[jtaghal] azonenberg pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/fAWcR
<openfpga-bot>
jtaghal/master 0c01995 Andrew Zonenberg: Fixed bug causing infinite recursion in refactored FTDI code. Confirmed that JTAG-HS2 now works in JTAG mode
* azonenberg_work
thinks the last thing we need is more toolchains right now
<openfpga-bot>
[jtaghal-cmake] azonenberg pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/fAWcu
<openfpga-bot>
jtaghal-cmake/master d8b5d76 Andrew Zonenberg: Updated to latest submodules
<openfpga-bot>
jtaghal-cmake/master 9774f42 Andrew Zonenberg: Added protobuf detection and cppcheck target
<awygle>
I pay 35$/mo for 70M down 20M up, I don't agree with azonenberg_work's "equal coverage" rule for the reason whitequark stated, I agree with qu1j0t3 about sex work and am generally ambivalent about azonenberg_work's proposed political system
<azonenberg_work>
awygle: i prefer to let fascists be seen and ostracized rather than taking cover in the darkness
<sorear>
can I generally assume 20M will always be Mb and never MB
<azonenberg_work>
sorear: I have never seen a network speed, anywhere, measured in bytes per second
<qu1j0t3>
awygle: well that covers everything!
<qu1j0t3>
maybe irc should be run in digest fashion. you get one post every four hours.
<awygle>
I'd get more done at work that way
<qu1j0t3>
same
<qu1j0t3>
now i just need an adult to enforce this on me
<awygle>
accountabili-buddy
<pie__>
heh. soneone told me theyre rolling out 10 terabit internet
* awygle
returns to driving 120 miles for a concert he's lukewarm on
<pie__>
i didnt believe it
<balrog>
"equal coverage" rule?
<balrog>
wut?
<balrog>
I should just read scrollback
<pie__>
actually i might be off by a few zeros there
<balrog>
azonenberg_work: business cable? watch the cancellation terms
<pie__>
man i dont remember, it was some absurd thing though
<pie__>
might have been 10 gigabit
<pie__>
ah whatever
<azonenberg_work>
balrog: what cancellation terms?
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<balrog>
azonenberg_work: I know that comcast has a 50 or 60% buyout policy
<azonenberg_work>
when i terminated my account on bainbridge they sent ME a check for $49.99
<balrog>
if you cancel, you have to pay that percentage of your remaining months to terminate
<azonenberg_work>
which was the pro-rated fraction of the month i had prepaid without using
<balrog>
some business internet providers have a 100% buyout policy
<balrog>
which means if you cancel, you're still paying everything you would have paid until the end of the contract
<balrog>
(comcast forces 2 year contracts)
<azonenberg_work>
It might have been a contract to start but it was month to month by the time i moved out
<balrog>
comcast also renews your contract for you
<azonenberg_work>
And i plan to stay in this house for 20+ years
<azonenberg_work>
And there are no other ISPs anywhere nearby
<azonenberg_work>
its comcast or dsl
<azonenberg_work>
So i'm stuck with them no matter how much i hate them
<qu1j0t3>
azonenberg_work | And have people laugh in their face about how nasty of a person they are, but hey // Have you looked around lately? It doesn't work that way in practice.
<azonenberg_work>
If a fiber provider starts up in the area, worst case i can wait a little while to switch
<qu1j0t3>
azonenberg_work: deplatforming is, so far, the only thing we know that works
<azonenberg_work>
qu1j0t3: i know of several news articles in which people were caught in news coverage of white supremacist rallies etc
<azonenberg_work>
and were fired over it etc
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<qu1j0t3>
your president and most of his staff are open white supremacists, dude. whatever Equal Time thing was done, failed.
<azonenberg_work>
Have not done any formal statistical analysis to see how common this is
* azonenberg_work
watches dominos line up
<balrog>
azonenberg_work: yeah, thanks to at-will employment in most states :)
<balrog>
as for ads, I have no problem with politicians buying full page ads in newspapers as long as they're paying market rates
<balrog>
now if a newspaper doesn't want to do business with them.... that can be a sticking point for some people.
<sorear>
the problem is that most people can't make a clear distinction between "ostracism" and "censorship", myself included
<qu1j0t3>
sorear: I do see widespread confusion about that but also no need to stop deplatforming
<balrog>
(endorsements of politicians from editorial boards are generally considered okay because editorials are opinion pieces and those boards are supposed to have some sort of independence from the newspapers' management)
<azonenberg_work>
balrog: you're missing the point, the goal was to prevent well-funded campaigns from having an advantage over folks without corporate backing
<azonenberg_work>
"Paying market rates" implies being able to afford the market rate
<balrog>
probably campaign contribution limits, but those got struck down by the supreme court
<azonenberg_work>
deeper pockets should not translate to an increased chance of winning the election
<balrog>
(I think that's what most other countries do)
<azonenberg_work>
i'm not proposing limits, i'm proposing to eliminate campaigning :p
<balrog>
good luck completely rooting it out
<azonenberg_work>
i mean honestly i would like to see congress chosen at random a la jury selection
<azonenberg_work>
serve for a term of "vote on one bill" then leave :p
<azonenberg_work>
But i dont see elimination of politics as a career being a popular issue for any career politician to approve...
<qu1j0t3>
azonenberg_work: couldn't possibly be worse.
<azonenberg_work>
qu1j0t3: thats my thought, i'm sure it will have problems but they will have a hard time being worse than what we have now :p
<prpplague>
balrog: not getting too into the depth of the discussion on one side or the other, but more pointing out a legal interpretation of some free speech isssues
<prpplague>
balrog: a business that operates as a public forum, can not make decisions or censor free speech on their platform. this gives them protection from lawsuits based on the content
<sorear>
i'd like some mechanism for people who make policy decisions to actually have experience with policy
<azonenberg_work>
sorear: yes that would be nice
<prpplague>
balrog: if however, the platform restricts content, and make direct decisions over what is presented and available, then they no longer have the legal protection from being sued for the content
<azonenberg_work>
on the flip side, the more time you have in a position of influence the more time you have to get bribed etc
<prpplague>
balrog: until now, companies like facebook and goolge have argued that they are public forums when they have been sued
<prpplague>
balrog: if however, someone can show that they are actively making publication choices, then the door is opened to a wide range of lawsuits
<azonenberg_work>
prpplague: i was proposing a more extreme level of equality where a publication must either not do a story on any candidate
<azonenberg_work>
or publish equal length interviews with everyone on the ballot
<azonenberg_work>
i.e. banning them from exercising any editorial control whatsoever
<prpplague>
azonenberg_work: yea, i was responding to balrog posting the xkcd link
<azonenberg_work>
in the same way that e.g. the fire department can't provide preferential treatment to one person over another
<azonenberg_work>
in this context a media outlet would be considered a public utility which must provide equal service to everyone
<balrog>
cyrozap: yeah dmitry puts all his work under a nonfree source-available license it seems
<pointfree>
There were some people here in ##openfpga who were interested inkjet printing circuits. I can't quite remember who. I think they were qu1j0t3 and genii... anyway, I gave a quick talk on paper & pencil computers at SVFIG https://twitter.com/lowfatcomputing/status/1032825348201754630
<pie__>
oh wow haha
<pie__>
it would be cool if you could build a computer with a literal stack of papers
<pie__>
holy shit you can make diodes just by doing that?
<pie__>
that actually works?
<pie__>
diode resistor logis iis a thing...
<pie__>
logic
<rqou>
there are claims that wwii pows made diodes and radios out of rusty razors
<mIKEjONES2>
diodes? O_o
<pointfree>
At the talk on Saturday Sam Falvo suggested a membrane keyboard from two graphite keyboard contact patterns with hole punched paper in-between (forming membranes). But right now I'm working on an electrostatic-motor mechanical display.
<rqou>
pointfree: btw did you see my EL display experiment?
<balrog>
pointfree: you have more detail / results on that? :)
<balrog>
pointfree: like, you can do transistors, but how reliable?
<pointfree>
rqou: I've been following it and I'm tempted to try it myself. Do you know of any pcb fabs that will do it? What's the lifespan of these EL displays?
<rqou>
i mean, those pcbs are just from OSHPark
<rqou>
or did you mean "will apply the EL material?"
<rqou>
no idea about lifespan yet
<rqou>
afaik you can indeed get custom shaped EL panels
<rqou>
idk about segmented or with the "really unusual" outcome i have in mind
<pointfree>
balrog: I haven't yet replicated Scott's paper and pencil transistors: https://hackaday.io/project/21622-graphite-circuitry-experiments The macroscale geometric diodes work when you have a tiny gap between the anode funnel and cathode block. I get negative reverse bias voltage and positive forward bias voltage on my multimeter. Neither reverse nor forward bias crosses zero.
<pointfree>
rqou: Yeah. If I wanted to sell a board could I have a fab apply it for me?
<pie__>
analog radio frequency stuff looks awesome
<pie__>
idk about WYSIWYG thoug :D maybe :D xD
<pointfree>
qu1j0t3: ooh nifty
<tnt>
Is there anything to tweak in nextpnr to optimize timing for ice40 ? I'm playing with a very small toy design (that doesn't really do anything useful, just test logic basically). icecube reach ~70 MHz arachnepnr does ~40 MHz and nextpnr does ~23 MHz.
<qu1j0t3>
pie__: WATCH THE VIDEO
<gruetzkopf>
no, it can't
<gruetzkopf>
"closest" i can find in the ticketing system is beijing
<gruetzkopf>
(which is not close at all, i know)
<pie__>
qu1j0t3, k
<rqou>
gruetzkopf: yeah, figured that would be the case
<benreynwar>
Has anyone run migen simulations using Verilator?
<benreynwar>
I saw that LiteX was using verilator but wasn't sure whether it's easy to do something similar for a simple migen module, with a migen test.
<rqou>
<troll>how come europeans can get so many entities to put their databases together but americans can't even build a healthcare website that works</troll>
<gruetzkopf>
well there's only two organisations involved in thsi
<gruetzkopf>
the "western" UIC (union internationale de chemins fer) and the "eastern" OSShD
<rqou>
but how did they manage to put together these two organizations?
<gruetzkopf>
(there's huge overlap these days)
<gruetzkopf>
"hey, we have international traffic, let's agree on minimum standards" was known to people in 1921-1922
<rqou>
apparently not by the US :P
<rqou>
American exceptionalism strikes again :P
<rqou>
didn't you hear, it's all about "America First" nowadays :P
<sorear>
we've got two oceans preventing much in the way of linkage and a bs federal law against even importing trains
<rqou>
wait we do?
<gruetzkopf>
caltrain was hoping to buy either siemens desiro ML or stadler FLIRT 3
<rqou>
i didn't know about that
<gruetzkopf>
that's on hold since the currend POTUS is in service
<rqou>
gruetzkopf: do you know if the new BART Antioch extension is a European-made train?
<rqou>
it's standard gauge and has "very European-looking" door open buttons
<gruetzkopf>
(which leads to a project in my area being finished quicker than planned, because siemens suddently has more capacity to build desiro High capacity)
<gruetzkopf>
those look very european
<sorear>
siemens has a factory in california because of the rule
<gruetzkopf>
front shape, schafenberg coupler
<rqou>
yeah apparently NIH-ing everything didn't work out so well for BART :P
<gruetzkopf>
those look like stadler GTW if i had to guess
<gruetzkopf>
kind of the diesel brothers/ancestors to the FLIRT line