2021-01-19 16:49
andytoshi changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit
https://bitcoin.ninja
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andytoshi >
i think, SPV security is pretty-much a no-go. so somehow bitcoin would need to understand the sidechain rules, which would require some sort of succinct verification primitive (e.g. SNARKs or STARKs or something)
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andytoshi >
but then on top of that there are incentive issues
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andytoshi >
where a sufficiently large bitcoin reorg could cause all the coins on the sidechain to be stolen
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andytoshi >
and it's really unclear to me how/if that can be solved
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andytoshi >
even with moon math
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rubikputer >
andytoshi: how impractical would it be to verify a snark proof in a tx? assuming pairing primitives were soft forked in
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rubikputer >
I've been trying to see how much work people have put into it
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rubikputer >
work/thought
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andytoshi >
if you were willing to trust a trusted setup
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andytoshi >
pretty damn practical
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sipa >
if the verification key is part of the output, it can be a personal setup, no?
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rubikputer >
I was under the impression it would be impractical to post the verification key to chain repeatedly if you're trying to do something like a prove state transitions of a sidechain
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jeremyrubin >
you can enforce 1 state transition per block, and then batch within each tx?
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rubikputer >
I guess it would make economic sense if you had enough activity on the sidechain to offset the costs, but bootstrapping a new sidechain would be tricky since it would be too expensive or you'd need to increase the time between blocks a lot before it would make sense
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sipa >
given that verification of a snark is O(1) work, the key can't be big
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sipa >
as verification at least needs to inspect the entire key
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sipa >
the prover keys can be huge, though
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sipa >
i'm not sure what the use cases of a snark with personal setup would be
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jeremyrubin >
sipa: conceivably if you have the taproot assumption (some N of N signers) it's somewhat useful?
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jeremyrubin >
The snark key means that any 1 of N can effectively generate a valid "delegated" spend
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jeremyrubin >
so improves availability
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jeremyrubin >
further, it is "corruptible" but not "cheatable" -- e.g., if a party was at one point honest, they can't undelete their setup key
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rubikputer >
doesn't vk size increase with the circuit size?
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sipa >
if it does, it's not succint
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sipa >
or at least, if it does substantially
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sipa >
it can grow logarithmically or so and be a snark
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jeremyrubin >
verification
*time* can be circuit size tho iirc in some
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jeremyrubin >
not sure if that still meets snark def
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sipa >
sublinearly doesn't imply small, though :)
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sipa >
but typical snarks iirc have O(1) verification time; just a few pairing operations
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sipa >
bulletproofs are O(log n) in proof size, but O(n) in verification time, so they're no snark
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jeremyrubin >
not sure it's completely accurate tho
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jeremyrubin >
too many acronyms
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jeremyrubin >
hmm; it's claimed in some places that STARKS are a subset of SNARKS
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jeremyrubin >
but they have polylog v time / space
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jeremyrubin >
(this is the source of my confusion on if snark def permits > O(1) ver)
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sipa >
over O(1) yes, but it has to be sublinear
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rubikputer >
^ this is my understanding as well
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jeremyrubin >
not sure
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jeremyrubin >
reading over exact defns in the snark paper
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jeremyrubin >
succinct is defined as O(|F| + |x| + |z|)
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jeremyrubin >
Where F is a function, x is the input, Z the output
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jeremyrubin >
so it's not clear to me what exactly |F| is
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jeremyrubin >
Madars: ?
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jeremyrubin >
the next sentence says " (i.e., verification time doesnotdepend on|w|, norF’s running time)"
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jeremyrubin >
so |F| is what?
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rubikputer >
isn't it the verifier of w?
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rubikputer >
oh then |F| might be a description of F?
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jeremyrubin >
F is an arbitrary function on public and private information
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jeremyrubin >
description of F is circuit size?
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