andytoshi changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit https://bitcoin.ninja
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<andytoshi> i think, SPV security is pretty-much a no-go. so somehow bitcoin would need to understand the sidechain rules, which would require some sort of succinct verification primitive (e.g. SNARKs or STARKs or something)
<andytoshi> but then on top of that there are incentive issues
<andytoshi> where a sufficiently large bitcoin reorg could cause all the coins on the sidechain to be stolen
<andytoshi> and it's really unclear to me how/if that can be solved
<andytoshi> even with moon math
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<rubikputer> andytoshi: how impractical would it be to verify a snark proof in a tx? assuming pairing primitives were soft forked in
<rubikputer> I've been trying to see how much work people have put into it
<rubikputer> work/thought
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<andytoshi> if you were willing to trust a trusted setup
<andytoshi> pretty damn practical
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<sipa> if the verification key is part of the output, it can be a personal setup, no?
<rubikputer> I was under the impression it would be impractical to post the verification key to chain repeatedly if you're trying to do something like a prove state transitions of a sidechain
<jeremyrubin> you can enforce 1 state transition per block, and then batch within each tx?
<rubikputer> I guess it would make economic sense if you had enough activity on the sidechain to offset the costs, but bootstrapping a new sidechain would be tricky since it would be too expensive or you'd need to increase the time between blocks a lot before it would make sense
<sipa> given that verification of a snark is O(1) work, the key can't be big
<sipa> as verification at least needs to inspect the entire key
<sipa> the prover keys can be huge, though
<sipa> i'm not sure what the use cases of a snark with personal setup would be
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<jeremyrubin> sipa: conceivably if you have the taproot assumption (some N of N signers) it's somewhat useful?
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<jeremyrubin> The snark key means that any 1 of N can effectively generate a valid "delegated" spend
<jeremyrubin> so improves availability
<jeremyrubin> further, it is "corruptible" but not "cheatable" -- e.g., if a party was at one point honest, they can't undelete their setup key
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<rubikputer> doesn't vk size increase with the circuit size?
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<sipa> if it does, it's not succint
<sipa> or at least, if it does substantially
<sipa> it can grow logarithmically or so and be a snark
<jeremyrubin> verification *time* can be circuit size tho iirc in some
<jeremyrubin> not sure if that still meets snark def
<sipa> no
<sipa> sublinearly doesn't imply small, though :)
<sipa> but typical snarks iirc have O(1) verification time; just a few pairing operations
<sipa> bulletproofs are O(log n) in proof size, but O(n) in verification time, so they're no snark
<sipa> eg
<jeremyrubin> not sure it's completely accurate tho
<jeremyrubin> too many acronyms
<jeremyrubin> hmm; it's claimed in some places that STARKS are a subset of SNARKS
<jeremyrubin> but they have polylog v time / space
<jeremyrubin> (this is the source of my confusion on if snark def permits > O(1) ver)
<sipa> over O(1) yes, but it has to be sublinear
<rubikputer> ^ this is my understanding as well
<jeremyrubin> Hmm
<jeremyrubin> not sure
<jeremyrubin> reading over exact defns in the snark paper
<jeremyrubin> succinct is defined as O(|F| + |x| + |z|)
<jeremyrubin> Where F is a function, x is the input, Z the output
<jeremyrubin> so it's not clear to me what exactly |F| is
<jeremyrubin> Madars: ?
<jeremyrubin> In https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/879.pdf what is |F|
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<jeremyrubin> the next sentence says " (i.e., verification time doesnotdepend on|w|, norF’s running time)"
<jeremyrubin> so |F| is what?
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<rubikputer> isn't it the verifier of w?
<rubikputer> oh then |F| might be a description of F?
<jeremyrubin> F is an arbitrary function on public and private information
<sipa> i guess so
<jeremyrubin> description of F is circuit size?
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