<ELLIOTTCABLE>
my own personal rule is: three commits of working implementation-code *or* tests (example-code, and framework-setting-up-code, don't count),
<cuttle>
i just want to upload to github now
<cuttle>
it's totally working now
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
before I `touch README.markdown` or name the project or anything else
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ahhhh okay
<cuttle>
only 1 commit but that's because i didn't commit along the way
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
well you can change the project name later
* ELLIOTTCABLE
laughs
<cuttle>
haha aight
<cuttle>
yeah
* ELLIOTTCABLE
slaps cuttle with the large, slimy, granular-commiting-donkey
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
failing that, poke around to find a short word that's available in your package-manager of choice, and doesn't have much in the way of google results.
<cuttle>
gshuf not found :p
<cuttle>
BREAKING BADDDDDDDD
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
`brew install coreutils`
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
DON'T TELL ME
<cuttle>
ONE EPISODE LEFFFFTFTTFTFTT
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm a season behind
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
watched House Of Cards yet? 'cause <3
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: CRAZY shit
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yeah about to
<cuttle>
roommate keeps telling me to :p
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“transgendered mycosis”
<cuttle>
it's next on my list
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“tendrilly”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“naricorn”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(the horny segment of the rhinotheca covering the nostrils of albatrosses and some other birds)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(incase you were curious)
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: but yeah i'm sure you've heard about ep 514 being the highest rated on imdb
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
a pale purple that is redder and paler than average lavender, bluer and paler than phlox pink or wistaria (sense 2a), and bluer, lighter, and stronger than flossflower blue
<cuttle>
hahaha
<cuttle>
i finally figured out rebase
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh my god, politics make you stupid.
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: *extremely* skeptical of the methodology of the study
<cuttle>
because psychology is 99% bullshit
<cuttle>
and
<cuttle>
"the more advanced that people's math skills were, the more likely it was that their political views, whether liberal or conservative, made them less able to solve the math problem."
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
didn't get to look
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wat
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
also, I'm a big believer in psychology.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's exactly why I don't like things like Haskell.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I just don't think *provability*, well, *matters*.
<cuttle>
uh
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
what matters is feel, and experience.
<cuttle>
not relatefd
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
nononono just speaking in generalities now.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
in that I believe in the study of psychology.
<joelteon>
lots of haskell h8 in here
<cuttle>
well i mean i like how it feels to program in haskel
<joelteon>
devyn come back me up
<cuttle>
i couldn't give a shit about proving my programs correct
<cuttle>
that's why i use it
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I simply don't quite believe in treating psychology as yet-another-mathematical-science
<cuttle>
well, basically
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
then again, I don't ‘believe in’ treating *computer science* as yet-another-mathematical-science
<cuttle>
it's chock-full of not just feely-stuff, but absolute bullshit masquerading as mathematical science
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
which, by the way, is making me love the SICP soooooo much more than I ever thought I would from inimino's description
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
'cause the forewords make it sound like the authors totally agree with me on that ;)
<cuttle>
yeah
<cuttle>
but yeah like
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
certainly not a fan of absolute bullshit masquerading as mathematical science.
<cuttle>
people draw huge broad conclusions based on like n=1 studies
<cuttle>
and think
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but that's most of computer science, too.
<cuttle>
not the same thing
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
mmmm, same thing in a different way.
<cuttle>
computer science isn't *science*
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
apples and oranges are both fruit.
<cuttle>
it doesn't claim to find truths about the world
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm not sure if we're disagreeing and arguing,
<cuttle>
well i mean
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
or agreeing and using a lot of words to do it.
<cuttle>
psychology claims to find truths about the world
<cuttle>
have you ever taken a psychology class
<cuttle>
because if you haven't, you are arguing based on a different presentation of psychology than I have
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
probably. almost certainly forgot all of it.
* ELLIOTTCABLE
nods
<cuttle>
I promise you people who get degrees in psychology would disagree with you
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm agreeing that it's bullshit *as a mathematical science*
<cuttle>
on its purpose and nature
<cuttle>
i mean, aesthetics and design and stuff is fucking awesome
<cuttle>
and stuff on that front, studying how people think
<cuttle>
isn't bullshit, and isn't pretending to be a mathematical science
* ELLIOTTCABLE
nods
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so we're on the same page there
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
just different definitions of “psychology”
<cuttle>
yeah i just mean the Field of Psychology is bullshit
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
psychology-the-science bothers me in the same way as computer-science-the-science:
<cuttle>
if the Field of Psychology were that
<cuttle>
what you like
<cuttle>
then it wouldn't be bullshit
<cuttle>
basically it's 100% people imposing their morals and preconceptions onto scant data
<cuttle>
like, all of it
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that is, I feel like it's indiscriminately applying “MATH IS SO COOL AND IT MADE ROCKETS WHEN WE STUDIED IT HARD!!!! SO IT SHOULD HELP US MAKE <THIS OTHER THING> IF WE DO <THAT THING> THE SAME WAY!!!!”
<cuttle>
well, you make websites
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ugh
<cuttle>
some people make 3d-renderers
<cuttle>
and computers that control rockets
<cuttle>
so sometimes math is *very* necessary
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh, absolutely
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
you forget that I like math
* cuttle
nods
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but the problem is that people try to apply that sort of computer-science, which isn't really related to software design at all … to software design.
* cuttle
is fucking excited to take more math classes
<cuttle>
yeah i getcha
<cuttle>
but i mean even look at agda, it's fucking cool
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
to my phone's operating system, to my web-browser, to my running-tracker app, to my social network.
<cuttle>
most of the thing you're talking about ends up being cargo cult snake oil
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yeah old argument you've heard out of me a thousand times
* ELLIOTTCABLE
shuts up
<cuttle>
like monads in web dev
<cuttle>
so yeah i agree there
<cuttle>
for sure
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wheeeee let's cargo-cult math into computers!!!!!!
<cuttle>
but like, program design and category theory are *deeply* related
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and then, when we discover the parts of computers that that, unbelievably, *is* useful for,
<cuttle>
and that is fucking cool
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
let's cargo-cult the results of THAT discovery, into the rest of computers, too!
<joelteon>
lattices are useless, right
<cuttle>
haha
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yeah also compiler design
<joelteon>
and B-trees and stuff
<joelteon>
useless fuckin' theoretical math
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: the kind of discrete math that is often cargo-culted into program design is very useful there too
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I treat compiler-design like aforementioned rocket-science. literally.
<cuttle>
so yeah I will not argue that cargo cult mathematics is not pretty widespread in programming
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's simply a completely different category than, well, “software development.”
<cuttle>
well i mean there's nothing fundamentally different between a compiler and something else
<cuttle>
i think a lot of the time
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
how many people, even *in this room*, of all rooms, have actually written something for which computer-science was more applicable than UX-design?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
maybe half.
<cuttle>
somebody applies math to programming and solves a problem in an entirely new and great way
<cuttle>
and then
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and how many of those peoples' total projects, undertakings, and desired-products, *were* of that nature?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
probably one. maybe two.
<cuttle>
for the next half century that same solution is repeated and learned as a premade tool
<cuttle>
and people say
<cuttle>
"we don't need math"
<cuttle>
but then all the really fundamentally new solutions come from math
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
there might be one or two people (even in *this room*, which is dedicated to that topic!) of who's corpus the majority is “computer-science”-applicable.
<cuttle>
like, games have physics and shit all over the place
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hm
<cuttle>
databases have math all over the place, it's just
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that has a realllllllly interestingly deja-vu feel.
<cuttle>
most people accept what was already figured out once
<cuttle>
instead of knowing it
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
you know what it feels to me, like you just said?
<cuttle>
what
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
remember our old model for discussing “the Ruts?” your oases?
* cuttle
nods
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
design-in-the-vertical, and design-in-the-horizontal
<cuttle>
OH YEAH
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
you're positing that all advancements in the horizontal, come from math
<cuttle>
hmmmm
<cuttle>
not quite
<cuttle>
because
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whereas all advancements in the vertical, come from user-experience tweaking
<cuttle>
i mean yeah that's a cool connection
<cuttle>
definitely not a one-to-one matchup there
<cuttle>
but yeah
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hm
<cuttle>
like, horizontal advancements usually refer to new ways of programming
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I think mathematics is just one, of many, “surveying” tools.
<cuttle>
whereas what i'm talking about in the way of new solutions from math can be
<cuttle>
the same old programming languages
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
for throwing oneself out along the horizontals. getting away from the comfort zones.
<cuttle>
but new algorithms and stuff
<cuttle>
like
<cuttle>
database designs
<cuttle>
and rendering algorithsm
<cuttle>
and natural language processing and statistics algorithms
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
unrelated: what's that HoTT stuff?
<cuttle>
it's like
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
the page has *nothing* I understand.
<cuttle>
you know set theory
<cuttle>
sets and functions
<cuttle>
the math you learn all through high school and stuff
<cuttle>
math built on sets
<cuttle>
well, this is an alternative on that fundamental level
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
leaving in a second, by the way
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
>:
<cuttle>
aw aight
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but always have phone etc
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
<3 IRCcloud notifs
<purr>
Let it be known that ELLIOTTCABLE hearts IRCcloud notifs.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
crap
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-- IRCcloud notifs
<purr>
Let it be known that ELLIOTTCABLE is indifferent to IRCcloud notifs.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
<3 IRCCloud
<purr>
Let it be known that ELLIOTTCABLE hearts IRCCloud.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-wholoves irccloud
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE: irccloud is loved by ELLIOTTCABLE.
<devyn>
whitequark: my issue is more that the former applies to me but not the latter, and some people lump them together and take offense to that somehow, which then offends me :p
<devyn>
whitequark: also what's up with the video lol
<purr>
lol
<whitequark>
devyn: so you have an issue with ignorance and stupidity. must be tough living
<joelteon>
ok, new minecraft world
<joelteon>
this one is way better
eligrey has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<purr>
<elliottcable> hr'd jolfing an O{S
chjj has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
sharkbot has joined #elliottcable
chjj has joined #elliottcable
sharkbot has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Sorella has joined #elliottcable
_whitelogger_ has joined #elliottcable
<purr>
<eboy> We need some command to murder the person who created the aforementioned command.
_whitelogger__ has joined #elliottcable
_whitelogger_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
alexgordon has joined #elliottcable
gazoombo has quit [*.net *.split]
gazoombo has joined #elliottcable
_whitelogger___ has joined #elliottcable
_whitelogger__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
cloudhead has joined #elliottcable
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: 'cause that's my public bitcoin address
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: my point, if anything, is *proven* by the project you linked.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
feels like joelteon is *completely* disconnected from the channel, at any given time
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm always under the impression that he's not *actually in the channel*, and just treats `/msg #ELLIOTTCABLE <blah>` as a form of stream-of-conscioussness, newline-delimited, twitter.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
since nothing he talks about has anything to do with what the *other* five people being active in the channel at any given time, are talking about.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that said:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
joelteon: NEW MINECRAFT WORLD GENERATION IS SO EXCITING. I'm playing again, for the first time in a month or two, tonight, with the girlfriend
<purr>
<sephr> it was my sexy name
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
devyn: preface to what I'm about to say, I *do* like you
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
devyn: but understand that other people have different definitions of words, than you do.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
devyn: to me, and by my definition, you *are* weeaboo.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
devyn: similarly, the two categories you mentioned, are very similar to me.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
in the same way that idiot 5cript k1dd3s and Haskell developers are all “programmers” to non-initiates … and equally opaque, difficult to understand, and perhaps in some cases, repulsive (“ew lookit dose geeeeks”),
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
‘those with an affinity for Japanese culture’ and “am i kawaii? uguuu~ cosplay all the time!!!11!1” are, basically, the same thing
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and, although they aren't enough to make me dislike *you*, specifically, they're equally-much of a turn-off to me, socially speaking … in the same way that a quintessential jock wouldn't *care* that you, a Haskell developer, aren't some idiot |<00L-4SS script-kiddie, because you'd still be a queer geek to them.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I am the quintessential American. EL OH EL GUNS DOGS TRUCKS PATRIOTISM
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
not a very enlightened view, perhaps. Nonetheless, it's a perfectly valid one, and one that you'd do well to remember exists. *shrug*
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: Freefall looks good; are you a Schlock Mercenary fan?
<joelteon>
alexgordon: my parser has linear time complexity now
<alexgordon>
joelteon: \o/
<joelteon>
exactly
<joelteon>
now to see what's new in rust
<joelteon>
i like to install rust HEAD every week or so and go try to compile my bot
<joelteon>
and count the number of errors i get
<alexgordon>
hahaha
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
lol.
<purr>
lol
eligrey-space has joined #elliottcable
eligrey-space has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: first time I heard about that
<whitequark>
(schlock mercenary)
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: your point is proven? I don't follow
fwg has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<alexgordon>
schlong mercenary?
<alexgordon>
i.e. a prostitute?
<joelteon>
2 errors so far
<joelteon>
ok 3
_whitelogger___ has joined #elliottcable
fwg has joined #elliottcable
eligrey has joined #elliottcable
fwg has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
rf has joined #elliottcable
<rf>
derrrrrr
<rf>
russfrank -> rf
<joelteon>
derrrrrrrrrr
<joelteon>
hi russfrank
<joelteon>
how's it going
<rf>
its going well
<rf>
recovering from mhacks
cloudhead has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
alexgordon has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.]
<purr>
<locks> I was attempting a yoke, but it was a leaky abstraction and I ended up with scrambled eggs
PragCypher has quit [Quit: Leaving]
cloudhead has joined #elliottcable
duckinator has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
<devyn>
whitequark: yes, life is difficult
<devyn>
(I say that sarcastically)
<whitequark>
do you say the fact that you say it sarcastically, sarcastically?
<whitequark>
that would be one nice strange loop
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I don't think that's fair at all. You should endeavour to understand my definition of what I am rather than trying to apply your own
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: but you have issues with people being anything more than passively interested in cultures other than the ones they were born into anyway, for some reason, so I don't expect that of you
<whitequark>
devyn: what is "passive interest in culture"?
<devyn>
whitequark: “oh cool, the ancient egyptians had heiroglyphs” vs. trying to understand the literary works of those days
<whitequark>
devyn: to be honest, I'm not sure if there is a distinction
<whitequark>
interaction with any foreign will affect you, no matter how little
<whitequark>
and conversely, there's a boundary you will stop at.
<whitequark>
perhaps for you it's further than "hey, they have those weird symbols", but it still exists
<devyn>
I'm not contesting that
<whitequark>
I mean, I understand your rhetoric
<whitequark>
but I'm not sure if it's a red herring or not
<devyn>
I'm just saying that elliott has a weird threshold (to me) that is fairly intolerant
<whitequark>
"elliott should know better". gotcha.
<devyn>
it's absolutely my own opinion, but, of course, I believe it's the right one to have, because it is my own
<joelteon>
man i'm some kind of fucking idiot
<joelteon>
i've spilled two separate kinds of food on my pants
duckinator has joined #elliottcable
<devyn>
whitequark: and I think it's actually one of only a few positions of which I can't, no matter how hard I try, understand the basis for its counterargument
<joelteon>
and they're new
<devyn>
to me it just seems xenophobic to want to mostly ignore other cultures
<joelteon>
man working with graphics libraries is the wurst
<whitequark>
try not using sausages for painting
<joelteon>
what, so you mean raw OpenGL?
<whitequark>
it depends
<whitequark>
and while my opinion may be seen as controversional, and, dare I say, flame-inducing, but I honestly, deeply believe that German sausages are the wrong choice for putting pixels on the screen.
<whitequark>
personally, my opinion is "something much less useful than haskell".
<whitequark>
but it's interesting conceptually.
<whitequark>
it also shares some of the "fuck you engineering" spirit that ec likes.
<whitequark>
>We should note that in Nock and Hoon, 0 (pronounced “yes”) is true, and 1 (“no”) is false. Why? It’s fresh, it’s different, it’s new. And it’s annoying. And it keeps you on your toes. And it’s also just intuitively right.
<cuttle>
whitequark: yeah i haven't gotten to the details of the language yet, but I didn't really enjoy the anger and hubris :p
<cuttle>
that's not intuitively right
<cuttle>
that's just like different to be different
<whitequark>
it's like an attempt to troll language geeks
<whitequark>
which I predict to be extremely successful
<cuttle>
lol
<purr>
lol
<cuttle>
i swear i've seen something by this guy before
<cuttle>
the use of "jets" to refer to c functions is really familiar
<cuttle>
whitequark: what do you think of this idea:
<cuttle>
i really liked when he said "you can represent data as functions, but representing functions as data is more interesting when using computers. you can send data over a network. how do you send functions?"
<cuttle>
i like that
<cuttle>
so I want to make something homoiconic, but with a way richer core data structure than lisp
<cuttle>
it would be a transparent data structure, not OO like Io
<cuttle>
and it would simply be a way of interpreting a sequence of binary data, and it would be very open about this