<alexgordon>
cloudhead: "javascript: definitely not a cult!"
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wut
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I feel precisely the fucking opposite
<alexgordon>
which bit?
<pikajude>
no alexgordon
<pikajude>
nobody died
<pikajude>
except for me
<pikajude>
i died
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cloudhead: I can't absorb a Big, Complex New Idea (something you would consider meaningful, in other words) in fuckin' 40 minutes
<alexgordon>
why are you feeling bereaved
<pikajude>
i'm lonely
<pikajude>
i got dumped
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I need a weekend with a whitepaper to absorb and consider
<alexgordon>
oh
<pikajude>
i feel sad
<alexgordon>
pikajude: you got dumped?
<alexgordon>
by yourself?
<pikajude>
yes
<alexgordon>
shit man
<pikajude>
?
<pikajude>
well she wouldn't be dumping anyone else
<alexgordon>
you dumped yourself man
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I *want* conferences to be about 1. networking, 2. mingling / propagation of ideas from *different fields*, and 3. talks that are small, bite-sized chunks of Things I Don't Normally Interact With
<pikajude>
i didn't dump myself
<pikajude>
someone else dumped me
<alexgordon>
oh ok
<pikajude>
why would i dump myself that's ridiculous
<alexgordon>
-shrug
<purr>
alexgordon: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<alexgordon>
pikajude: have you tried resorting to prostitution, alcohol, or both?
<pikajude>
alcohol makes me feel worse
<pikajude>
unfortunately
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: lol if you don't see why that talk is funny then you don't get it
<purr>
lols
<alexgordon>
even the first line is lol
<alexgordon>
> As front-end dev educator, my heart broke every time a student proclaimed “I hate JavaScript.”
<alexgordon>
dripping with poe
<cloudhead>
They aren't bite-sized and small though, they are 45 minutes about something a child could learn in kindergarden
<cloudhead>
I'd rather there be no talks at all tbh, than the examples I gave
<cloudhead>
I agree it's about networking and mingling
<cloudhead>
and 3. for me is *new ideas*
<cloudhead>
but please don't bore me for 45minutes about trivial shit
<cloudhead>
the big/complex ideas are also not meant to be fully absorbed during the talk, it's more like an intro to something much broader which you can look up at home with a cup of tea
<alexgordon>
who actually pays to go to these confs?
<cloudhead>
but if you're gonna waste my time with a wtfjs talk or your new cool routing library
<cloudhead>
then please
<cloudhead>
I have better things to do
<cloudhead>
alexgordon: I don't know
<cloudhead>
I would never
<cloudhead>
it's so easy to get a talk accepted if you wanted to go
<cloudhead>
I mean, the barrier to entry is so low
<cloudhead>
you can talk about cat gifs
<alexgordon>
seems like confs are just reading for people who are too lazy to read, lol
<purr>
undefined
<cloudhead>
yeah like, really expensive social audiobooks
<alexgordon>
xD
<alexgordon>
bedtime stories!
<alexgordon>
I need ice cream
<cloudhead>
it's also gotten worse lately because of the new diversity meme
<alexgordon>
uh oh, be careful saying stuff like that in this channel :P
Coraline is now known as CoralineZzz
<cloudhead>
lol
<alexgordon>
your head will be on a pike by morning
<cloudhead>
I hope this channel isn't contaminated
<cloudhead>
the whole internet is already
<alexgordon>
wait and see!
<alexgordon>
the internet was a lot better when people used it to discuss facts
<cloudhead>
I've managed to curate my experience pretty well though over the years
<cloudhead>
I don't see too much of the memery that is ongoing
<alexgordon>
it seems the more popular something is, the more the discussion becomes about feelings
<alexgordon>
probably because the concentration of engineers decreases
<alexgordon>
irc is way too uncool to be affected, obviously
<cloudhead>
yeah that's pretty much it
<cloudhead>
:<
<cloudhead>
irc is pretty safe
<cloudhead>
I have nothing against feelings (I have plenty of them) but they shouldn't be thrown around at people on the internet
CoralineZzz is now known as Coraline
<cloudhead>
especially anger/hate
<cloudhead>
there's so much of that these days
<alexgordon>
it's just cause that's the way most people think, and always have done
<alexgordon>
before we had religion telling people what's right and wrong
<alexgordon>
now we have facebook
<ljharb>
cloudhead: what do you mean "contaminated" exactly
<alexgordon>
-popcorn
<purr>
alexgordon: alexgordon probbly got some.
<cloudhead>
alexgordon: haha yes..
<ljharb>
cause it kinda sounds like you're saying that the internet is for being autistic and emotionless
<cloudhead>
contaminated by mindless+loud entitled people who think the internet is made for them
<ljharb>
ok, can you give me an example?
<ljharb>
because that description applies to people who say "feelings don't belong on the internet" too
<cloudhead>
the internet isn't made for anyone
<ljharb>
right
<ljharb>
soooo nothing doesn't belong on the internet
<ljharb>
glad we agree
<cloudhead>
yes
<ljharb>
that's not the same thing, ofc, as "anything belongs on every part of the internet"
<ljharb>
just like in real life, there's appropriate and inappropriate venues for any behavior
<cloudhead>
right, but the internet is not the same as the not-internet
<ljharb>
sure it is
<ljharb>
it's full of people
<cloudhead>
it's a medium
<ljharb>
what else needs to be the same?
<ljharb>
yes, so is "a room"
<alexgordon>
cloudhead: I'm starting to appreciate religious moral absolutism. the problem with moral "relativism" is not that people might act without morals, but that they invent new ones...
<cloudhead>
alexgordon: yeah, agreed
<alexgordon>
xD
<cloudhead>
and people are pretty bad at inventing them
<cloudhead>
usually if someone isn't happy in a room, they can leave, but on the internet it's not so easy to leave
<cloudhead>
so people try to impose their moral values on others in that space
<cloudhead>
and that's the problem
<ljharb>
what's an example?
<ljharb>
you can leave any space you want
<ljharb>
(separate from the issue of people following you elsewhere to bother you, ofc)
<alexgordon>
well the worst problem is the groupthink, people shut themselves in little boxes with like-minded people
<cloudhead>
an example is twitter and the league of social justice warriors
<ljharb>
cloudhead: you can leave twitter any time you want
<cloudhead>
I don't have a problem with twitter
<alexgordon>
it's great, in a way, that I can find communities of people with the same interests as me, but it seems to have a bad effect on society
<cloudhead>
I'm happy there
<ljharb>
also heads up, using the term "social justice warrior" is a pretty clear signal that one is "contaminated" by 4chan and its ilk
<cloudhead>
but I wish others wouldn't try to impose their values in that big room
<alexgordon>
like when millions of people are convinced that they have to vote with a pen and not a pencil because MI5 is going to erase all the ballot papers... cause they read it on their part of twitter
<cloudhead>
I've never been on 4chan
<ljharb>
cloudhead: can you give me an example? preferably one that's minimally emotionally charged.
<cloudhead>
hah
<cloudhead>
there is no such thing
<cloudhead>
they are all charged to the brim
<ljharb>
just to minimize the tone of this debate here
<ljharb>
i'm sure you can use your judgement
<cloudhead>
hm I don't know haven't you been on twitter this year?
<cloudhead>
it's hard to avoid
<ljharb>
i'm asking about your perspective, which my being on twitter can't reveal
<cloudhead>
it's pretty common to get shut down on twitter because you express a diverging opinion, and by shut down I mean more like, internet-stoned
<cloudhead>
it hasn't happened to me, thankfully
<alexgordon>
ljharb: social justice warrior is someone who is perpetually outraged by social justice issues
<cloudhead>
but it's just as bad to see it happen to someone else
<ljharb>
alexgordon: yes that's not what i meant
<ljharb>
cloudhead: ok, that's the "internet mob" thing, which is different (altho perhaps often overlapping) with "imposing values"
<cloudhead>
well that's what the mob does though
<ljharb>
i'm asking for an example of a specific diverging opinion
<cloudhead>
it imposes its values
<cloudhead>
ugh it happens all the time when around feminism or women in tech
<cloudhead>
literally there can't be a conversation about that on twitter without people freaking the fuck out
<ljharb>
then it should be easy to give me an example
<cloudhead>
except I unfollow people who bring those subjects up
<Coraline>
That definition of SJW is dismissive
<alexgordon>
mine?
<Coraline>
SJWs like me do important work
<alexgordon>
well clearly it's a term that means different things to different people
<Coraline>
Yes it's used as a pejorative
<alexgordon>
to me it's purely a perjorative term
<Coraline>
I wear it as a badge of honor
<cloudhead>
ljharb: actually a great example is the Moldbug debacle
<ljharb>
cloudhead: ok
<alexgordon>
Coraline: social justice activist is probably a more positive term
<ljharb>
cloudhead: so basically, the guy writes a ton of things that people don't like, he was selected to speak at a conference, a bunch of people objected
<Coraline>
I'm a fucking warrior
<alexgordon>
xD
<alexgordon>
to me the term has the connotations of like "War on Drugs"
<Coraline>
OMFG I cannot be here
<ljharb>
cloudhead: why does moldbug get to impose his values any more than the people who don't like what he has to say?
<cloudhead>
ljharb: he isn't imposing, that's the thing
<ljharb>
cloudhead: he clicks "publish", that's imposing.
<alexgordon>
Coraline: o7
<cloudhead>
no it isn't
<ljharb>
cloudhead: if he wants to not impose his values he shouldn't share them
<cloudhead>
it's on his own blog
<ljharb>
otherwise what's the point
<ljharb>
so? it's public.
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<ljharb>
putting anything into the public space is imposing your thoughts on the public.
<cloudhead>
sure but you don't have to see it if you don't look for it
<cloudhead>
nope
<alexgordon>
guuuuuuuys
<cloudhead>
imposing has a different meaning
<ljharb>
cloudhead: the fact that it exists means that some people do have to seei t
<cloudhead>
no..
<ljharb>
cloudhead: because certain values encourage certain behaviors and attitudes that have profound effects on society.
<ljharb>
you can't publicize ANY idea ever without imposing the effects of it on potentially everyone.
<ljharb>
what those effects are may be debatable
<alexgordon>
last time this happened we lost whitequark :S
<cloudhead>
that's a very loose usage of the word
<ljharb>
but it's never "no effect"
<cloudhead>
everything has an effect, yes
<cloudhead>
haha
<ljharb>
and if one of the consequences of moldbug publishing his thoughts is that people are mad at him, why does he get to cry about it?
<cloudhead>
people can be mad at him, that's fine
<ljharb>
and they can be mad at λconf too
<cloudhead>
but there are spaces in which everyone should be able to coexist
<ljharb>
and that's fine too
<cloudhead>
and twitter is one of those
<cloudhead>
conferences is another
<ljharb>
that's a bold claim that i don't see how you can make
<cloudhead>
well it's my opinion
<ljharb>
and "everyone" *already* can't coexist on twitter, or in conferences. that's the very problem.
<cloudhead>
is that true?
<cloudhead>
the problem is that people aren't ok with other people's opinions
<ljharb>
if a woman can't go to a conference without getting groped, *and* the conf organizers won't do anything about it, how can you claim that women can coexist there?
<alexgordon>
in the end, we all die, and get eaten from the inside out
<ljharb>
for example
<cloudhead>
alexgordon: :<
<cloudhead>
well exactly
<ljharb>
if your opinion is "i am lesser", then NO, i should NOT be ok with that opinion
<cloudhead>
that's exactly what I'm saying is the problem
<ljharb>
cloudhead: right, so, codes of conduct are a path to everyone coexisting at conferences. and that *necessarily* means excluding certain opinions and behaviors from being at the conference.
<ljharb>
you can't include everyone without defining boundaries for everyone.
<ljharb>
in civilization we call those "laws"
<alexgordon>
lol unfortunate implications
<purr>
lolnope
<ljharb>
in religion they're commandments, or ethics, or whatever
<ljharb>
at conferences, they're a "code of conduct"
<cloudhead>
but opinions are just opinions
<ljharb>
no, they're not
<ljharb>
they can be harmful
<cloudhead>
not if not acted upon
<alexgordon>
ljharb: you saying we need codes of conduct to stop people groping women?
<ljharb>
that includes speaking them out loud tho.
<ljharb>
alexgordon: based on all of human history? we sure need something
<ljharb>
cloudhead: the only way an opinion is just an opinion is if it never leaves your brain
<cloudhead>
yes
<alexgordon>
do you think, without a code of conduct saying "no groping", people would just go all out and grope ALL the women?
<ljharb>
and you can feel free to always think whatever thoughts you like. but just like "your right to move your fist stops at the tip of my nose", your right to have opinions without consequence stops at my ears.
<cloudhead>
haha
<ljharb>
alexgordon: no, obviously not
<ljharb>
alexgordon: i'm not saying that rules are what stops everyone
<alexgordon>
well, is there any overlap between people who obey codes of conduct and people who grope women?
<cloudhead>
the thing I object is that /his/ opinion is not ok, but other opinions are
<cloudhead>
this is the whole problem
<cloudhead>
and it's a mob effect
<ljharb>
alexgordon: it's not that the code of conduct actively stops people, obviously.
<ljharb>
alexgordon: it's that it establishes norms, and establishes clear processes about punishment/addressing wrongs
<ljharb>
alexgordon: just like laws don't stop murder, but they establish the norm that murder's not ok, and they make it clear what happens when you murder
<ljharb>
alexgordon: so let's not keep going down this clearly logically fallacious path, k
<alexgordon>
lol I just don't get it
<purr>
lols
<alexgordon>
think that most people know that it's not ok to grope
<ljharb>
consider that perhaps that's your personal failing, and not a flaw in the logic
<ljharb>
maybe most people do know that
<ljharb>
but nonzero people don't
<alexgordon>
I think the purpose of having a code of conduct is to make people feel better about having "done something", not for any practical reason
<ljharb>
that's probably part of the reason many confs/orgs institute one, sure
<ljharb>
many things aren't done purely for noble reasons
<ljharb>
but the *effect* is what matters, not the purpose.
<ljharb>
and the *effect* of a code of conduct is that it begins the slow journey towards a world where that place/medium/conf/whatever actually has established norms and punishments that serve to minimize the bad behavior, whatever it is.
<alexgordon>
the effect, if there is one
<ljharb>
if you think it has no effect, then there should be no objection to instituting one literally everywhere.
<cloudhead>
isn't that called 'the law' and it already exists?
<ljharb>
and if you think it's somehow worse than the status quo of "no code of conduct", then, how about we just try this for a couple decades and see, because it hasn't been tried before?
<ljharb>
cloudhead: for groping, sure. but there's plenty of behaviors that aren't legally regulated that aren't appropriate in some venues.
<alexgordon>
aha!
<ljharb>
cloudhead: and also, the law has a necessarily much lower bar
<cloudhead>
that's exactly the problem
<ljharb>
cloudhead: yes but "do X and you go to jail" is different from "do X and you can go literally everywhere in the world except this one building"
<ljharb>
and the latter is much more appropriate to apply with far less rigor than is required for the former.
<cloudhead>
for sure
<ljharb>
so it's a false equivalence that "oh the law should handle it"
<cloudhead>
I just don't like the arbitrary nature of these new 'laws'
<ljharb>
the law should handle more of many things and less of many things, but it can't ever be a replacement for a per-venue/company/conf/etc code of conduct.
<ljharb>
it's private property or a private event
<ljharb>
it's arbitrary by nature
<ljharb>
if you don't like it, don't attend
<cloudhead>
I don't
<ljharb>
i own my house, and i have full reign to tell you to do what i command (within the law) in my house or GTFO
<cloudhead>
but it's a contamination
<ljharb>
and similarly, if i throw a conf, i have the same Royal Power
<cloudhead>
it's spreading
<ljharb>
it's not "contamination", it's "how private property works"
<ljharb>
and yes, concern for all people's well-being is spreading. that's a good thing
<cloudhead>
except it happens in public places
<cloudhead>
ie: the internet
<ljharb>
the internet isn't a public place.
<Pyrrh>
ljharb++
<purr>
Let it be known that Pyrrh loves ljharb.
<ljharb>
not all of it.
<Sorella>
It's how society and social relationships in general work. Nobody has to interact with people they don't like…
<cloudhead>
earlier you said it was
<Sorella>
For any reason. Whatsoever.
<ljharb>
cloudhead: i said that *somewhere* on the internet, there's room for anything
<ljharb>
cloudhead: but for example, twitter is a private company. they can arbitrarily and at any time dictate who is on their platform.
<ljharb>
cloudhead: if you don't like it, tough.
<ljharb>
cloudhead: same applies to facebook, and to irc
<ljharb>
cloudhead: and by virtue of freenode policy delegating authority to ops, the same applies to each freenode irc channel
<alexgordon>
this discussion is way too abstract now
<cloudhead>
yes
<cloudhead>
it doesn't matter who "owns" the space
<ljharb>
yes it does
<cloudhead>
it still operates as a public space
<ljharb>
the owner of the space is the ULTIMATE AUTHORITY on what happens there
<ljharb>
that's what "owner" means
<ljharb>
in fact, if it's owned, it's not public, also by definition
<cloudhead>
that's irrelevant
<ljharb>
you can't argue semantics and then say semantics are irrelevant.
<cloudhead>
you're talking about ownership
<ljharb>
"public" is "lack of ownership"
<cloudhead>
I was talking about use
<ljharb>
that's literally the only thing it means
<cloudhead>
no it isn't
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<cloudhead>
everything is owned by someone
<cloudhead>
doesn't mean there aren't public spaces
<cloudhead>
anyway, this is not going anywhere
<ljharb>
and rules still apply in those kind of public spaces.
<cloudhead>
different kinds of rules, but yeah
<alexgordon>
can we all just agree that javascript is the best language on earth?
<ljharb>
alexgordon: i accept your pandering
<alexgordon>
xD
<alexgordon>
let's get back to FACTS
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<cloudhead>
disliking javascript would get me kicked out of this channel
<cloudhead>
so.. yes :D
<cloudhead>
facts are nice
<cloudhead>
if you believe in them
<alexgordon>
been working on my compiler
<cloudhead>
:O
<cloudhead>
how's it going!?
<alexgordon>
lol it's not that great
<purr>
undefined
<cloudhead>
heheh
<alexgordon>
thanks for the input purr
<cloudhead>
javascript is great isn't it
<alexgordon>
I need to learn llvm ir
<cloudhead>
:<
<cloudhead>
WHY
<alexgordon>
need a target language for my compiler!
<cloudhead>
just write a vm
<alexgordon>
I guess
<alexgordon>
probably not a bad idea actually
<cloudhead>
you can create a simple bytecode based on your needs
<cloudhead>
and then an interpreter for that
<cloudhead>
yeah it'll be quicker than targetting llvm
<cloudhead>
llvm is good if you have static types though
<cloudhead>
do you?
<alexgordon>
sort of
<cloudhead>
I think I'd still write a custom backend, you can always target llvm later
<alexgordon>
static types with holes
<cloudhead>
I see
<alexgordon>
:D
<cloudhead>
do you have a nice playlist for coding
<cloudhead>
something pretty chill
<alexgordon>
is that required for writing a compiler?
<cloudhead>
most of the ones I found on soundcloud are like you're getting penetrated in a dark nightclub
<cloudhead>
yes, absolutely
<cloudhead>
no I need it for me
<cloudhead>
just wondering if you had something
<alexgordon>
try asking elliott
<alexgordon>
I notoriously only listen to 70s jazz
<cloudhead>
ok
<cloudhead>
I think I already have listened to all 70s jazz
<alexgordon>
xD
<alexgordon>
sometimes 80s jazz
<cloudhead>
:o
<cloudhead>
now you lost me
<cloudhead>
anyway, everyone knows the 60s was the best decade for jazz >:D
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<alexgordon>
yay working
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<alexgordon>
why doesn't this wooooooork
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<cloudhead>
alexgordon: what's happeningg
<cloudhead>
did you write an irc client?
<alexgordon>
lol
<purr>
undefined
<alexgordon>
was trying to print out a generator in node
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<alexgordon>
but apparently node doesn't know how to print generators and just prints {} instead
<alexgordon>
so I thought I was getting an empty object
<cloudhead>
nice
<cloudhead>
do you willingly use node?
<alexgordon>
lol
<purr>
lolwut
<alexgordon>
"when did you stop beating your wife?"
<cloudhead>
haha
<cloudhead>
exactly
<alexgordon>
I willingly use node!
<alexgordon>
:S
<cloudhead>
Are you seeking help
<jfhbrook>
YOU willingly used node cloudhead !
<cloudhead>
the past tense is important here I feel
<jfhbrook>
I had to work on a bunch of the libraries you abandoned! >:O
<cloudhead>
we all make mistakes
<jfhbrook>
pff
<cloudhead>
oh which ones in particular
<jfhbrook>
vows for one
<jfhbrook>
also that static fileserver I had to write a replacement for
<cloudhead>
ah that's not too bad
<jfhbrook>
basically anything nodejitsu continued to use
<cloudhead>
hairy problem though
<cloudhead>
did you work at nodejitsu?
<jfhbrook>
yeah
<cloudhead>
people still use node-static for some reason
<jfhbrook>
those people are fools
<alexgordon>
lol
<purr>
lololol
<cloudhead>
I thought it was replaced like, 10 times by now
<jfhbrook>
well
<cloudhead>
the node people like to rewrite stuff
<jfhbrook>
wholly replaced at nodejitsu by me
<cloudhead>
it's part of the ethos
<cloudhead>
good job
<jfhbrook>
then isaac wrote his own because mine didn't have exactly the caching behavior he wanted
<jfhbrook>
rather than, y'know
<jfhbrook>
sending me a pull request -_-
<cloudhead>
yes
<cloudhead>
part of the ethos
<cloudhead>
I thought isaac's one replaced node-static
<jfhbrook>
mine predated his
<cloudhead>
I see
<jfhbrook>
and he explicitly told me his was better because my caching was "wrong"
<cloudhead>
classic isaac
<jfhbrook>
at least modern isaac seems a little better about these things
<jfhbrook>
I think those people eventually realized that you have to either clean up your messes, or admit defeat
<jfhbrook>
so why did you actually disappear from node
<jfhbrook>
and I don't mean "oh I realized I didn't like javascript" because
<jfhbrook>
you could have written a self-important blog post
<jfhbrook>
or have still been contact-able
<cloudhead>
cause I found better, and cause node went to shit
<jfhbrook>
node didn't go to shit until like 0.12 though
<cloudhead>
it was on a downslope
<cloudhead>
I could see it already
<cloudhead>
then ryah left
<jfhbrook>
nah, totally different issues
<cloudhead>
and that was it
<jfhbrook>
ryan leaving was probably a good thing for the project tbh
<cloudhead>
:/
<cloudhead>
well, tbh it all started when callbacks appeared
<cloudhead>
and replaced promises
<cloudhead>
that was the first blow
<cloudhead>
big mistake
<jfhbrook>
pff
<jfhbrook>
I don't think so---any promise implementation we had back then wouldn't have been compliant with the current ones, for instance
<cloudhead>
there wouldn't have to be current ones
<jfhbrook>
also the callbacks are a simpler API
<cloudhead>
if the built-in one was good
<jfhbrook>
and imo not actually all that error-prone
<jfhbrook>
I don't *mind* promises but I don't think they're actually *good*
<cloudhead>
callbacks are just a more primitive tool
<jfhbrook>
which works for node
<jfhbrook>
you don't need that many moving parts
<cloudhead>
anyway I realised I didn't want to be writing javascript ever again
<jfhbrook>
rumor had it you signed a contract in blood that said you weren't *allowed* to write javascript
<jfhbrook>
true story
<cloudhead>
:o
<jfhbrook>
see this is what happens when you don't write a self-important blog post
<cloudhead>
I know :/
<cloudhead>
Why I Quit Node.js And Why This Matters To Everyone
<cloudhead>
I was also pretty burnt out at the time
<cloudhead>
the Less project kind of burnt me out
<cloudhead>
so I needed a break from all things open-source
<alexgordon>
cloudhead: what do you use if not js?
<cloudhead>
alexgordon: ecma6 of course!
<alexgordon>
hahaha
<cloudhead>
jkz
<cloudhead>
now mainly go and haskell
<alexgordon>
no dynamic languages?
<cloudhead>
not really no
<cloudhead>
I don't see the point
<cloudhead>
if I have a quick script to write I'll use shell
<cloudhead>
or perhaps ruby
<jfhbrook>
I kinda hate ruby
<ljharb>
oh right, i knew i knew your name from somewhere
<jfhbrook>
I haven't written a ton of it
<ljharb>
i made a few PRs to lessjs
<jfhbrook>
but everything I've ever seen in ruby has made my eyes bleed
<cloudhead>
hmm yeah
<ljharb>
ruby is fine when it's written like it's not ruby
<ljharb>
ie, using parens, avoiding implicit metaprogramming voodoo, etc
<cloudhead>
I think if you write it like perl, there is beauty
<alexgordon>
cloudhead: I dunno, I feel like I've outgrown static type systems. prefer to just check in my head
<cloudhead>
heh yeah exactly
<jfhbrook>
I just think blocks are fucking stupid on their face
<jfhbrook>
and I think importing and overriding other peoples' classes is fucking stupid on *its* face
<cloudhead>
ruby should be used as a perl replacement
<cloudhead>
not a python replacement
<alexgordon>
ruby should be used for rails and no more ;)
<jfhbrook>
but python is largely a perl replacement
<cloudhead>
alexgordon: "check in your head" <- how big is your head
<alexgordon>
cloudhead: huge, on at least one of two levels
<jfhbrook>
anyways I gotta go shopping, which is all well and good because I can't even with this conversation rn
<cloudhead>
hehe
<jfhbrook>
I'm seriously tempted to quit programming right now that's how burned out I am
<jfhbrook>
I only have a week to get my head on right
<jfhbrook>
it's awful
<cloudhead>
thing is, ruby doesn't have a proper import system, that disqualifies it from serious work
<alexgordon>
yes
<cloudhead>
jfhbrook: I've done that a few times by now :<
<cloudhead>
got sucked back in twice
<jfhbrook>
I don't mean open source work
<cloudhead>
quit for one year each time
<jfhbrook>
not like that sarah mei crap
<cloudhead>
no I mean completely
<alexgordon>
cloudhead: I find that most of the errors I get in python are caught by pyflakes
<alexgordon>
programmers build these complicated static type checkers and then use them to find typos ;)
<cloudhead>
hehe
<ljharb>
type bugs are so non-problems it's kind of funny
<alexgordon>
all the rest of the errors are caught by tests
<alexgordon>
so that coves like 90% of it
<ljharb>
every static typing adherent is so zealous about typing but the kinds of bugs people make just aren't type-related usually.
<cloudhead>
that's the thing though, in haskell I just don't write tests, I write type signatures instead
<alexgordon>
well horses for couses
<ljharb>
that makes sense in a language that is immutable
<alexgordon>
courses
<cloudhead>
I mean, C may aswell not have a type system
<alexgordon>
yeah but C is useless
<alexgordon>
USELESS
<cloudhead>
D:
<cloudhead>
all the best things are written in C
<alexgordon>
I used to write tons of C, then I realised I was wasting my time making the same data structures over and over again, and I haven't written any C for about 5 years
<cloudhead>
haha
<cloudhead>
yes
<alexgordon>
if I have to, I write C++
<cloudhead>
you have to copy paste
<cloudhead>
or embrace the void*
<cloudhead>
all hail the void*
<alexgordon>
fuck that. I need std::vector for sanity purposes
<cloudhead>
yeah, this one time, I almost learnt c++
<cloudhead>
but then I didn't
<alexgordon>
life is nothing without sexually transmitted diseases
<cloudhead>
dodged that bullet
<cloudhead>
I think I would enjoy a dynamically typed haskell
<cloudhead>
I think that would be lisp though
<alexgordon>
mmm
<cloudhead>
hmm
<cloudhead>
I mean, not having runtime errors is quite nice
<alexgordon>
cloudhead: in 20 years, maybe you will enjoy my language!
<cloudhead>
:D
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<alexgordon>
so I guess a stack-based vm is best for a functional language
<alexgordon>
time to rip off the jvm :P
<cloudhead>
hah good luck
<cloudhead>
I've always preferred register based vms in terms of implementation