<B0101> Azonenberg: Hi, hows your work on MEMS?
<azonenberg> Going pretty well, I'm going to be doing another few experiments over the weekend with the goal of preparing specimens to cross-section image on the SEM later on
<azonenberg> i want to measure some of my layer thicknesses
<azonenberg> My Si wet etch process pretty much works, the only thing left to do is fix the exposure source (better lamp) and use a thinner Ta2O5 layer to reduce overetch
<azonenberg> if all goes well i'll do another evaporation run in mid-august on half of a <110> wafer coated in ~50nm Ta2O5
<azonenberg> put 100-200nm of Cu on that
<azonenberg> then cleave into dies and start actually building devices
<B0101> oh, thats interesting.
<azonenberg> End of August to early September i should be able to do some high-aspect-ratio tests
<azonenberg> then soon after that build an actual comb drive
<azonenberg> all of the other processes are mostly figured out
<azonenberg> I'll probably do the first version really simple, only a couple of fingers with barely visible motion
<B0101> hmm... ok
<B0101> Azonenberg: You should make some videos about your experiments
<azonenberg> B0101: Maybe at some point
<azonenberg> A lot of the litho has to be done under darkroom conditions so there wouldnt be much to see
<azonenberg> But if i have some time i can try to set something up
<B0101> Do you have an electron microscope?
<B0101> Ok, I am just kidding, of course its too expensive
<azonenberg> B0101: Not *yet*
<azonenberg> But i can get access to one on campus here and there
<azonenberg> And I plan to buy one in about 5-10 years when i have the budget
<azonenberg> It'd cost about as much as a decent car
<azonenberg> *nice car
<azonenberg> $20K ish
<azonenberg> Hmm
<azonenberg> If I evaporate 80/20 NiCr it should resist KOH nicely
<azonenberg> without need for a secondary hardmask
<azonenberg> But i dont know if it will work with tungsten boats
<bart416> azonenberg, IR camera...
<azonenberg> ?
<bart416> Isn't the photoresist UV sensitive?
<azonenberg> Oh
<azonenberg> You mean for filming stuff
<azonenberg> Yeah, IR would work if i had one
<azonenberg> The only IR camera i have is focused for really short range
<azonenberg> like 6"
<azonenberg> And isnt easy to refocus (electrical tape holding the lens elements together, etc :P)
<bart416> Old CCD webcams are pretty IR sensitive if you remove the filter and replace it with a piece of photo film
<azonenberg> bart416: Thats actually what i have
<azonenberg> I have no filter at all
<azonenberg> so it's sensitive to visible + IR
<bart416> Ah
<azonenberg> But the lens got a bit messed up and kinda hacked
<bart416> Then again, I sort of had a lot of time to perfect it
<azonenberg> so its held together in what happens to be a very short range focus
<bart416> We have to do some sort of uhm thesis like test at the end of highschool
<bart416> (obviously less complicated)
<bart416> Mine was about tracking a hand against a wall
<bart416> We solved the skin colour problem by IR, also way less noise heh
<bart416> But it depends on a camera to camera basis if it works well
<bart416> The cheaper ones are usually easier
<bart416> azonenberg, how paranoid are those idiots :|
<azonenberg> lol no idea
<bart416> Also, I got my BGA soldering process to work while drunk, lol
<azonenberg> lol
<bart416> That's the good news
<bart416> The bad news is that I went through roughly 40 ICs to get it to work well
<azonenberg> Lol
<azonenberg> What pitch?
<azonenberg> and what kind of pcb?
<bart416> scrap pieces of dual layer PCB
<azonenberg> And what kind of chips?
<bart416> 0.4mm
<azonenberg> o_O
<bart416> NVRAM
<azonenberg> and i thought the 0.8s i had were small
<azonenberg> Grr
<azonenberg> Four more pins to route
<bart416> lol
<azonenberg> in a sea of wires between an FPGA and a SRAM
<bart416> I'm looking into package on package for my ARM Cortex board
<azonenberg> This design really needs six layers
<azonenberg> And probably a bga fpga
<azonenberg> That one little spot right between the fpga and the ram is getting too dense to route anything
<bart416> heh I'm first drawing everything on paper >_>
<azonenberg> i probably wont be able to clock the ram faster than 20-40 MHz given those deltas in trace length
<azonenberg> And how would you do that for something like this? :P
<azonenberg> One of the problems is that this fab (expresspcb) cant do really tiny vias
<azonenberg> Or blind vias
<bart416> they might just work azonenberg
<azonenberg> So i cant route under any power vias
<azonenberg> And they cant do vias smaller than 660um outer diameter with a 200um hole
<azonenberg> *wants laser-drilled microvias*
<bart416> lol
<R0b0t1> Blind via?
<azonenberg> R0b0t1: A via that doesnt penetrate the board all the way
<azonenberg> and goes from an outer layer to an inner one but not out the other side
<azonenberg> buried vias go between two inner layers and dont penetrate either surface
<R0b0t1> Ah
<azonenberg> This fab cannot do either
<R0b0t1> I'd never seen those on things I've handled. Are they relatively rare?
<azonenberg> Relatively
<R0b0t1> Well, one you can't see, but...
<azonenberg> Except on things like GPUs and mobos
<azonenberg> Where there are so many you'd never see them
<azonenberg> And cell phones
<azonenberg> Those things are so dense you wouldnt believe it
<azonenberg> They basically pile the top and bottom board surface with components
<azonenberg> laser microvia in every pad
<azonenberg> and do all the interconnect on inner layers with buried vias :P
<azonenberg> i'm exaggerating a little bit, but they're DENSE
<azonenberg> Check out this guy for example http://www.huv.com/gumstix/Gumstix2-big.jpg (gumstix single-board computer)
<azonenberg> All BGA for the ram, flash, and cpu
<azonenberg> one tssop
<azonenberg> looks like a SMT cap array for decoupling (or maybe that's bus termination resistors)
<azonenberg> lots of 0402 or 0201 decoupling caps
<azonenberg> vias everywhere
<azonenberg> In the back http://www.huv.com/gumstix/Gumstix-big.jpg you can see the lack of significant blind vias on this one
<azonenberg> since the BGA vias go all the way  through
<azonenberg> But they are using a process that can do uber-tiny traces that go between bga pads etc
<azonenberg> The one i'm using doesnt go below 150 micron trace width
<bart416> Some motherboards and cellphones have up to 8 layers
<azonenberg> try 12+
<bart416> And sometimes even components embedded in between the layers
<azonenberg> Yeah, those are rarer
<azonenberg> But not unheard of
<bart416> 12+ is only on very expensive high end products though
<azonenberg> Yeah
<bart416> 8 is normal manufacturing at this point
<azonenberg> Like the ones that use $20,000 FPGAs in 1900 ball packages? :P
<bart416> Yeah, that sort of stuff, lol
<bart416> "Oh hey 4 power layers!"
<azonenberg> Yeah, i wanted to do that
<bart416> I'm doing 500 pins on two layers
<bart416> It's mathematically possible
<bart416> heh
<azonenberg> 500 total pins, or 500 pins on one chip?
<bart416> one chip
<azonenberg> bga?
<bart416> yes
<azonenberg> But i'd be willing to bet you have big pitch and tiny traces
<bart416> Why do you think I needed to perfect 0.4 mm pitch process?
<azonenberg> I assumed it was for something small lol
<azonenberg> These things are blurring the line between PCBs and ICs
<azonenberg> using photolithography and plasma etching for vias
<azonenberg> resistors and caps embedded in the board
<bart416> I wonder if you could layer / layer deposit your own PCB to more than two layers
<azonenberg> Given a vacuum evaporator and such, i could make them using IC-style materials :P
<azonenberg> 500nm Cu + 200nm SiO2
<azonenberg> per layer
<azonenberg> Start with a dual layer FR4+30um Cu substrate for power
<azonenberg> lay down a thick dielectric layer, punch vias
<azonenberg> fill vias with conductive material and CMP flat
<azonenberg> Well its 0430 here and i've been up a bit longer than planned... time to get some sleep lol
<bart416> lol
<bart416> 'nite
<R0b0t1> azonenberg, whoah
<berndj> azonenberg, hi.  speaking of vacuum evaporators, do you think FR4 would outgas too much for a nice layer of Cu?  at least Cu isn't crazy reactive like Al is, but still... need to have a good free path length
<berndj> that pacman ghost thing or whatever it was is cute :)
<nathan7> berndj: the nyanotechnology?
<lekernel> given that FR4 smells sometimes, it probably outgases
<azonenberg> berndj: Hmm
<azonenberg> I've evaporated Cu before, but on Si and SiO2
<azonenberg> and Ta2O5
<azonenberg> if anything outgasses it'd be the epoxy
<azonenberg> the glass wont care
<azonenberg> lekernel: What you might be smelling is particulates though
<azonenberg> But yes, it probably does
<azonenberg> berndj: also, that's a nyan cat
<berndj> oooh the one that's rainbow-propelled!
<azonenberg> Yeah
<azonenberg> Didnt you recognize it?
<berndj> no, my pop culture fu is rather weak
<B0101> Azonenberg: Hi, have you got any updates or discoveries
<azonenberg> B0101: Running some copper experiments tonight in an hour or so
<B0101> hmm for the interconnects?
<azonenberg> For hardmask, actually
<azonenberg> I want to see a) how well it survives KOH, and b) design a better etch
<azonenberg> SC2 is too fast
<azonenberg> gotta dilute it