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<tesswill>
Hello all! I hope I have the right area. I'm looking to chroot a linux distro like puppy or tiny core linux or archlinux in android for the Exynos 5420. can anyone point me in the right direction?
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<Wizzup>
tesswill: hiya
<Wizzup>
We're not really android focussed, but I think a chroot should be doable?
<Wizzup>
What device do you have
<Wizzup>
I'll reply on list
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<tesswill>
Hello Wizzup! do you mean the mailling list? I subscribed and the email I sent is "Exynos 5420 linux kernel chroot in Android KitKat possible?"
<Wizzup>
I read it
<Wizzup>
I will reply in a bit
<Wizzup>
currently busy/out of the country
<Wizzup>
back ... tomorrow evening. :)
<Wizzup>
afk
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<tesswill>
ahhh ok thank you Wizzup!
<mdrjr>
tesswill: are you using a tablet?
<mdrjr>
if so.. You'll need to find out how and rebuild the kernel with the loopback driver support (to use the complete linux installer on Play Store)
<mdrjr>
or figure out either how to extract the contents of their images to a ext* part of your tablet and chroot from there
<tesswill>
yes I will be.
<mdrjr>
and no. Don't even bother to PM me because I won't teach you how you can possibly break your tablet
<tesswill>
well see my plan is to rebuild the kernel / android that samsung will provide with the blobs. right?
<mdrjr>
tesswill: btw what's the kernel version on your 12.2? I have a 10.1 2014 note
<tesswill>
and then build a kernel with a distro that has the exynos instructions built in
<tesswill>
i haven't bought the tablet yet. I'm just gathering the info first before I get it.
<mdrjr>
Buy a Chromebook instead :P
<mdrjr>
if you want to run Linux
<tesswill>
I don't want to use the "complete linux installer" on the play store.
<tesswill>
well see, i'm avoiding "plastic" of any kind.
<tesswill>
and well the chromebook looks awesome, the keyboard is plastic. sooo its a no go.
<tesswill>
i'm getting a stainless steel keyboard and attaching the samsung tablet. no plastic :P
<mdrjr>
back of the tablet is pure plastic
<tesswill>
there's non-plastic coatings I can put on it :P
<Wizzup>
you can also put coatings on the chromebook keyboard
<Wizzup>
;-)
<tesswill>
yes you can do that, but after awhile, those coatings come off from all the typing....
<tesswill>
i even thought of getting "key caps" of zinc...
<tesswill>
and that turned out to be very painful solution.
<tesswill>
but see, I want an android AND linux solution.. both working side by side.
<tesswill>
for some reason I have in my head, that when I build the samsung with the exynos hardware blobs, I can also add in other kernel variables that "tie in" with the chroot linux aspect.
<tesswill>
ultimately I want to run the android part with 4 cores, and the chrooted linux side with 4 cores...
<mdrjr>
hahaha
<tesswill>
hmmm you laughing at the 8 core splitting idea?
<mdrjr>
yes
<tesswill>
LOL thought so.
<Wizzup>
well
<Wizzup>
you should virtualise one of them
<Wizzup>
then it may be possible
<Wizzup>
mostsly
<tesswill>
well see chrooting is a form of virtualizing.... like a
<tesswill>
jail of a sort.
<tesswill>
and from my understanding the libraries if they are compiled properly against the exynos kernel then would be able to use 4 of those cores.. right?
<Wizzup>
I think limited to certain cpu cores is done in other ways
<Wizzup>
limiting, but also possible with a chroot if it inherits certain cpu 'stats' (masks)
<Wizzup>
but anyway
<Wizzup>
I don't even have a working kernel on my chromebook2 that enables all 8 cores
<Wizzup>
only four
<tesswill>
ahhh see i read up on that. with the newer exynos 5420, i read that they worked out that issue already
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<mdrjr>
AFAIK the only device ATM that can do the 8-core at the same time
<tesswill>
so yea it says it can now, BUT not in the way i thought it would.
<tesswill>
4 small cores for all the regular proccssing and 4 big cores for all the heavy graphical proccessing...
<Wizzup>
mdrjr: the chromebook also has a 5422 one, I think it would work in mainline
<mdrjr>
Wizzup: I haz no idea :( I don't own a CB2 yet :(
<Wizzup>
They call is 5800, but it's the same
<Wizzup>
call it*
<tesswill>
i'm reading up on the different big.LITTLE's two modes...
<mdrjr>
Wizzup: I don't know if the firmware needs to allow it
<Wizzup>
it's a scheduler thing
<tesswill>
yea a scheduler, the cores are not all equal.
<tesswill>
4 small and 4 big.
<tesswill>
"Heterogeneous Multi Processing is a clever piece of technology because the Linux kernel (in Android) needs to know that not all the cores are equal."
<tesswill>
I wonder if I install a chroot linux distro, would it still have the HMP??? that's why i came here to see if I can build a chroot alongside the samsung kernel which uses the exynos 5420.
<tfiga>
there is no difference between HMP and SMP for userspace
<tfiga>
you just have 8 CPUs and it's up to the kernel to schedule tasks between them considering their performance
<tfiga>
all the CPUs in big.LITTLE systems implement the same architecture and can run exactly the same code, they just differ in implementation (A7 vs A15), which translates to different performance levels
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<tesswill>
ahhh ok , thanks tfiga.
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<WarheadsSE>
tesswill: STOP, you're not going to magically get Linux on the tablet in some awesomesauce fashion by rebuilding the kernel. IF you need anything kernel wise for a chroot, ALL YOU NEED is that driver/kernel module.
<WarheadsSE>
Keep asking everyone the same questions, thrice. We might Just do it for you!!1
<Wizzup>
WarheadsSE: btw, openrc (from gentoo) works fine in chroots
<Wizzup>
but mostly because it doesn't need to take over init and basically everything
<Wizzup>
tesswill: but yeah, a chroot is nothing more than a 'virtual root' for the system. The kernel is shared by chroots and the main system, and you cannot (easily) have both Wayland/X and Android running at the same time
<Wizzup>
Tablets are usually even less supported, compared to chromebooks
<Wizzup>
What kind of device are you looking for exactly
<WarheadsSE>
Wizzup: yes, I know that.
* Wizzup
shivers at the thought of systemd
<WarheadsSE>
I made the comment becuase I know the chances he will come back with that question
<Wizzup>
hehe
<WarheadsSE>
The sheer number of "but.. i get an error in a chroot" that is a result of "I tried systemctl" is a good bench mark for an imaginary number.
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<tesswill>
hello warheadsse, that's fine. I got that. I don't need the kernel for a chroot.
<tesswill>
but don't all the libraries need to be build with the same kernel?
<tesswill>
"ALL YOU NEED is that driver/kernel module" <- which I would get from samsung's kernel build. right?
<WarheadsSE>
Argh.
<WarheadsSE>
That'd be in the host's kernel. Which is, in this case, the Android kernel. So ONLY if something was missing, would you bother with touching that.
<WarheadsSE>
The userland is NOT bound to the kernel.
<WarheadsSE>
Nothing would ever get done in Linux if you had to rebuild the entire userland every time you updated the kernel.
<tesswill>
" ONLY if something was missing,"
<tesswill>
but see that's my point. if I want to run x-windows inside android, then I need libraries, right? and those libraries will be compiled? against the kernel, right?
<tesswill>
i hightly doubt that the android that samsung compiles is going to have the xwindows libraries or references, right?
<tfiga>
tesswill: I think you need to read what chroot is
<tesswill>
well i did read the wikipedia on it.... but I'm a bit confused, hence why i've been searching all this time. can any distro be chroot into?
<tfiga>
essentially when you call chroot all it does is making the / (root) point at the directory you specified
<tfiga>
and start the specified shell command
<tfiga>
you don't boot into a new system, you just switch the location of your root
<tesswill>
yep, i get that. i've read lots of how-to's on doing a chroot for different distros for android.
<tfiga>
now after you chroot you can execute binaries from the new root, assuming they are compiled for your architecture (ARM <= v7 in this case)
<tesswill>
i guess maybe i'm confused as to how the processing is handled. that comes from the kernel, right? with the exynos, it will handle the switching via the 8 core, it all comes from the kernel?
<tesswill>
EXACTLY!
<tfiga>
from kernel point of view there is nothing special
<tfiga>
the shell command started by chroot is just another process
<tesswill>
thank you... so logically, you would look for a distro that is compiled for the exynos, right?
<tfiga>
running along the ones previously existing
<tesswill>
yes.
<tfiga>
the kernel operates on physical devices, while root is a logical concept
<tfiga>
so it just remembers that the new process started by chroot has its / attached to some path
<tesswill>
so for the kernel, its just about handling the different processes, right?
<tesswill>
the 8 core scheduling, etc.
<tesswill>
right?
<tfiga>
yes
<tesswill>
now if I have some functions like x-windows, and a terminal, sshd, mysql, they all need libraries that work with that specific kernel?
<WarheadsSE>
You look for a distro that is compiled for the CPU instructions inside the Exynos
<WarheadsSE>
not "for the exynos"
<WarheadsSE>
I've explained that.
<tfiga>
tesswill: no, the kernel will run any userspace for given processor architecture
<tesswill>
yes, and I get that. now linux-exynos is for what exactly?
<WarheadsSE>
kernel.
<tfiga>
linux-exynos is about supporting given _hardware_ (Exynos) in the kernel
<tfiga>
and then the task of the kernel is to run any applications made for your CPU architecture, regardless of particular implementation of this archtiecture (Exynos, OMAP, Tegra, whatever)
<WarheadsSE>
This is regarding getting hardware support for the SoC into the kernel. Not "porting"
<tesswill>
yes. so naturally i'd gravitate towards linux-exynos, because its focus is on the hardware in the kernel, and someone might know of some "work" with it on one of the distros... right?
<tfiga>
I don' think this is what you need
<tesswill>
i'm a systems guy and not a developer. hence why i haven't 'groked" it yet. and so I came here to the source of what i'm after....
<WarheadsSE>
This is not the source of what you are after!
<tfiga>
from what I read you already have a working kernel
<tesswill>
i have nothing yet.
<tesswill>
not even a kernel.
<tfiga>
but you have an Android tablet
<tesswill>
i'm looking for work already done so i don't have to re-invent the wheel.
<tfiga>
or I read the wrong thing?
<tesswill>
not yet no. i will soon
<tesswill>
i will have the tab pro 12.2 soon
<tfiga>
right
<tfiga>
so it will run Android
<tfiga>
and it will have a kernel there
<tfiga>
that runs that Android
<tesswill>
and I will be making a ROM out of the... YES
<tesswill>
now that kernel...
<tesswill>
will have the exynos instructions....
<tfiga>
there is no such thing as exynos instructions
<tesswill>
but see, those kernels for the android don't have other features I "may" want, as I want to have x-windows, mysql, etc runing as well.
<tesswill>
hmmm.
<tfiga>
Exynos is just yet another chip that has standard ARM core inside
<tesswill>
ok PATCH then?
<tesswill>
yes i know that. sorry if i'm not using the right terminology. lol
<tfiga>
but yes, that kernel has some Exynos-specific drivers
<WarheadsSE>
KERNEL NOT SQL!
<tesswill>
warheadsse, do you have difficulties working with noobs? lol
<WarheadsSE>
tesswill: Oh, I am sorry, didn't you defends yourself previously from "quaint sarcasm" as "not a noob"
<tesswill>
oh everyone is a noob at SOMETHING. and right now, i'm a noob at this.
<WarheadsSE>
I keep saying the same things you and keep wandering down the dark alleys in the opposite direction of where I am pointing a flashlight.
<tesswill>
but that doesn't mean i'm a noob at other things. :D
<tesswill>
well if that is the case warheadsse, and you may be right, i'm not stupid, sooo the commuication is being lost somehow.
<tesswill>
sooo try and dumb it down for me. ;)
<tfiga>
I'd like to point you at some good book about this, but the problem is that I can't really recall any...
<tesswill>
look. i get the "exynos drivers" and I go and compile a kernel.
<tesswill>
i get that. i guess i just assumed... that someone on here might know of someone that is working with the exynos on linux on a specific distro.
<tesswill>
and has all the basics setup.
<tesswill>
so I dont' have to do everything from scratch. because i'm very rusty with compiling.
<WarheadsSE>
tesswill: I will not explain it like you are 5.
<tesswill>
*sigh* ok. how about you just don't explain at all. because clearly i don't get what you're trying to say.
<WarheadsSE>
I keep saying this. You don't need to compile a kernel, unless, say, loopback or ext4 are not present
<tesswill>
there isn't a bell ringing in my head that's saying 'ohhhhhh ok, i get it now".
<tesswill>
yes. I get what you are saying! I honestly do
<tesswill>
so lets continue on with that discussion.
<WarheadsSE>
I have figured there _aren't_ bells. You're headed towards help vampirism
<tesswill>
down that logic you just said.
<WarheadsSE>
Mkay.
<tesswill>
so I go and get a copy of solaris 10 iso
<tesswill>
and I go and put that on an SD card and do a chroot to it
<WarheadsSE>
1) that's not ARMv7 cpu instruction set. Fail.
<tesswill>
I would get a bash shell from the chroot.
<tesswill>
ahhh ok
<tesswill>
thank you WarheadsSe.
<tesswill>
ok. so I owuld Fail. you are correct.
<WarheadsSE>
It's like running PPC on x86
<tesswill>
NOW. I would have to find a linux distro that would run on an ARMv7, correct?
<WarheadsSE>
There are many, and well documented.
<tesswill>
yes i'm aware of that.
<WarheadsSE>
In the case of gentoo, you'd want at least a stage3+ ARMv7
<tesswill>
so I would pick any. and then I would run the bash and low and behold I would be running that linux distro inside the chroot bash, right?
<WarheadsSE>
(but that's another gentoo specific techinical road I will leave to steev and Wizzup)
<steev>
hm?
<WarheadsSE>
* close
<WarheadsSE>
You'd be running bash in a <distro> userland
<tesswill>
but what about x-windows? I would need the mali drivers for it, right?
<WarheadsSE>
But the Mali drivers for xorg are not kernel drivers.
<tesswill>
and I would have to compile the library for those mail drivers?
<steev>
WarheadsSE: i'm trying to read the scrollback and i have nfi wtf is going on
<WarheadsSE>
steev: YW
<tesswill>
no. they are not kernel drivers.
<tesswill>
they are drivers for the display to see, right?
<WarheadsSE>
steev: also, I'm sooooo sorry
<steev>
no
<WarheadsSE>
They are the kernel-interface drivers (drm)
<steev>
it's for GLES
<steev>
you can use fbdev with x, without gles, or drm. and xorg works fine with it
<WarheadsSE>
btw steev, kwin_gles + 5800 w .. some binary pile <3
<steev>
WarheadsSE: what?
<steev>
5800w ?
<WarheadsSE>
steev: s|w|w/|
<tesswill>
hmmm but if I used the maili drivers then my x-windows would work a bit better, wouldn't it not?
<WarheadsSE>
No
<WarheadsSE>
mali is NOT a 2d GPU
<tesswill>
i never said it was. maili is for the graphical aspect of things.
<tesswill>
the tab pro 12.2 uses maili
<steev>
no, mali is for 3d
<WarheadsSE>
Nope for 2d.
<tesswill>
yes. 3d
<WarheadsSE>
* not
<tesswill>
so if I wanted to have 3D with my x-windows, then i should have the mali drivers, right?
<WarheadsSE>
First off, you're still calling it x-windows, which is cracking me up.
<WarheadsSE>
Second, it will only help with GLES acceleratable items.
<WarheadsSE>
Which there aren't that manny.
<tesswill>
sorry. xorg.
<WarheadsSE>
s/nn/n/
<tesswill>
ok.
<tesswill>
thanks for your time
<WarheadsSE>
Now then, can we move on to the next, better educated question you have?
<tesswill>
do you know of anyone that is working with the linux-exynos drivers with puppy or with tiny core linux by chance?
<WarheadsSE>
How.. does that matter/
<WarheadsSE>
You don't need linux-exynos (ala Exynos SoC specific drivers) for anything you've stated yet.
<WarheadsSE>
This happens to be a mainline-ing effort, and the Mali binaries don't always work with that.
<tesswill>
so does kernel deal with memory?
<WarheadsSE>
How much experience do you have with Linux/Unix?
<tesswill>
i've been using linux since 1994. why do you ask? hmm slackware .34 i think. its been such a long time
<tesswill>
i'm just rusty with compiling.
<tesswill>
anyways. i'm sure I'll figure something out. i'm sure you're very busy doing other things. thank you very much for your time.
<tesswill>
enjoy your evening
<WarheadsSE>
The you should know what manages the memory.