jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language<http://cliki.net/> logs:<https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp,http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.5, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<holycow> .
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<AeroNotix> hmm, I have a macro that is forming defmethod bodies but this creates an issue where the defmethod name will be unknown to user code so things like return-from will be slightly annoying to write. How to solve that
<AeroNotix> ?
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<Bike> implicit nil block?
<AeroNotix> Bike: haha, that's what I was just trying to see if it would work :)
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<holycow> anyone know of any interactive music generator programs done in common lisp? not scheme or the like?
<holycow> not googling much right now. open music is interesting, still configuring that
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<LdBeth> z
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<LdBeth> holycow: Opusmodus.org . Unfortunatly it's property software
<holycow> oh wow
<holycow> huh, thanks for the link
<holycow> checking it out
<LdBeth> and macOS only.
<holycow> i was just looking for supported os
<holycow> okay that is too bad
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<holycow> LdBeth: that looks like amazingly high quality software
<holycow> very impressive
<LdBeth> Aactually it is ;)
<LdBeth> If you are interested in sound synthesis, Common Lisp Music is where worth to look at
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<holycow> did not know about that either
<holycow> neat
<LdBeth> anyway just look at https://www.cliki.net/Music
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<holycow> thank LdBeth
<holycow> still cannot get over how high quality opusmodus is
<holycow> especially given that it is a cl app
<holycow> most apps have some hard edges especially around the interface side of things
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<holycow> this one even has an amazingly polished website
<holycow> i might have to fire up one of my macs and get it to play with
<LdBeth> Writing pretty interface it not had with Clozure CL as long as you know some Cocoa
<LdBeth> And the good news is Clozure CL is free open source
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
<holycow> mornin
<LdBeth> morning
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<no-defun-allowed> morning beach
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<no-defun-allowed> how are you?
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<beach> Me? Fine as usual. Yesterday I created the #sicl channel to avoid polluting #clasp with my own stuff.
<beach> no-defun-allowed: What about you? How are you?
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<no-defun-allowed> alright i guess. i've been incredibly this lazy this weekend
<beach> no-defun-allowed: Laziness is a virtue in computer science and software development.
<no-defun-allowed> lol, i'm "planning" i guess
<beach> Sure.
<beach> Many people work way too hard. They think that, when they are tired in the evening, they have had a good day of work. I personally try to let the computer do as much work for me as possible.
<no-defun-allowed> i got the channel implementation finished in cl-decentralise so i have to write some kind of async handler for it and also some uses for the system.
<beach> Sounds good. I don't know what it is, but it still sounds good. :)
<no-defun-allowed> i'll make a looping macro of some kind which reads a block, and runs thunks based on what channels it belongs to
<no-defun-allowed> it's an abstraction for making consensus and mirroring systems
<beach> Got it.
<no-defun-allowed> blockchains are way too costly and federation is really boring and is effectively centralisation but with more servers
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<holycow> it does sound intriguing
<no-defun-allowed> (also matrix.org sucks and i want to make a better solution for running the decentralised web of things)
<holycow> :)
<holycow> ohhhh ... you are building one of those
<holycow> neat
<no-defun-allowed> thanks
* no-defun-allowed goes to matrix-client.el cause that way she knows links won't break
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<LdBeth> Can't see why matrix sux, it's just a protocol.
<no-defun-allowed> >
<no-defun-allowed> federation is really boring and is effectively centralisation but with more servers
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<no-defun-allowed> back
<no-defun-allowed> cl-decentralise lives at https://gitlab.com/netfarm.gq/cl-decentralise, it's in an organisation cause there'll be projects built on top and i have friends who like the idea
<no-defun-allowed> beach: is there a way to teach minion your program exists so you can look like a badass and say "minion, tell foo what cl-bar is" like you do?
<beach> Sure.
<beach> minion: help
<minion> There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
<beach> minion help adding terms
<beach> minion: help adding terms
<minion> To add a term, say something like ``minion: add "term" as: the definition''. I will remember the definition.
<no-defun-allowed> nice!
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<no-defun-allowed> *ahem*
<beach> minion: Help forgetting
<minion> To make me forget something, say something like ``minion: forget term''. I'll forget what I know about that term or nickname.
<no-defun-allowed> minion: add "cl-decentralise" as: cl-decentralise is a consensus building protocol designed for fast prototyping and development.
<minion> OK, done.
<no-defun-allowed> that was a mouthful
<no-defun-allowed> ty
<beach> ywlcm
<no-defun-allowed> back when cl-d was a python project and it was much larger and fuzzier, people complained i wasn't going fast enough.
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<beach> People complain about lots of things. Don't listen to them.
<no-defun-allowed> turns that if you rush things to meet quotas ideas aren't fleshed out properly and are incomplete
<beach> I totally agree.
<no-defun-allowed> the original project, nettle, tried to manage a tree of objects using parent-child links and children were never verified.
<no-defun-allowed> this meant that anyone could modify children instead of just the linker. with my demonstration system for cl-d i'll split the object into automatically generated "unsigned" parts and "signed" user parts
<no-defun-allowed> it's strange how people do web projects honestly. many make the interface and single-server logic without understanding how they will send it to other servers.
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<no-defun-allowed> maybe it's cause no one hired back end devs or the interface has to look amazing the first time to hook people in
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<beach> no-defun-allowed: Not my domain, but it sounds like you have good ideas with respect to traditional ways of doing things.
<beach> no-defun-allowed: What is your dayjob?
<no-defun-allowed> thankyou.
<no-defun-allowed> i'm an unemployed 17 year old student.
<beach> Well, if you are a student, then you kind of have a full-time job.
<no-defun-allowed> that is true
<beach> 17? So are you in high school (or equivalent)?
<no-defun-allowed> re "strange order of design": it's like someone took SICP's wishful thinking and applied it to a whole project
<no-defun-allowed> yes, i'm in high school.
<beach> I see what you mean about design.
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<beach> There is a lot of bad design in software. I am planning to write a book about it.
<no-defun-allowed> i'd love to read that when it comes out
<beach> Thanks.
<LdBeth> interesting
<aeth> The Unix Hater's Handbook 2?
<no-defun-allowed> if it's called that i'll actually buy the book
<LdBeth> The Common Lisp School of Design
<no-defun-allowed> "problem solving methodology? more like problem starting methology: the book"
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<no-defun-allowed> at school we're taught "analysis, plan, design, evaluate" or words to those meanings
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<beach> I won't tell you the name of the book because it is so witty (in my opinion) that someone might steal it before I get the book out.
<no-defun-allowed> nice
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<beach> I wrote this page on "uniform reference semantics" several years ago, but there have been some recent questions about what it means, so here is a link: http://metamodular.com/Software-engineering/uniform-reference-semantics.html
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<flip214> beach: if you need a proof reader, you know where to find me ;)
<beach> I do. Thanks!
<flip214> best time might be in winter... then I'd spend a week in Bordeaux or so, having +20°C more than here ;)
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<flip214> oh, and BTW, I rebased all the SICL typo commits into one-commit-per-file and did a PR.
<flip214> should be much easier to merge, if you're so inclined.
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<beach> flip214: January and February are generally rotten here when it comes to the weather. December is usually nice, though.
<beach> flip214: That would be great! Can you send a link to my gmail address, please?
<beach> I think I have merged most of them already.
<beach> Oh, got it. Thanks.
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<shka_> beach: good day
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<shka_> i have a question
<shka_> in every node
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<beach> shka_: Hold on. I'll have a look.
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<beach> shka_: It is not strictly necessary. I have written versions without the parent reference. But in certain applications, you might want to avoid inserting and deleting elements by always starting the search at the root.
<shka_> do you happen to have version without parent floating around?
<beach> shka_: For example, let's say you are implementing an editor buffer and you want to keep lines of text in the leaves.
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<beach> ... then you can keep a pointer to the current line and when it splits, you can use the parent pointer to accomplish the new insertion.
<beach> Let me have a look.
<shka_> beach: i want to make immutable queue
<shka_> so i always insert at the left-most
<shka_> and delete at the right-most
<shka_> but i will have to COW so i will need full path regardless
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<shka_> oooh, neat
<shka_> thanks!
<beach> Sure.
<shka_> somehow i couldn't figure out deletion
<beach> It's messy.
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<nisstyre> .j #scheme
<shka_> it is all cool now, that should help
<nisstyre> woops
<shka_> nisstyre: it happens
<beach> nisstyre: Apparently, #scheme is very quiet. :)
<nisstyre> beach: yeah
<shka_> easy, pretend that you are writing scheme in CL! ;-)
<beach> But then you have those FUNCALLs that give it away.
<nisstyre> beach: macros can solve that
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<beach> I suppose.
<shka_> jackdaniel has this nifty reader macro that simply turns [foo bar] into (funcall foo bar)
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<heisig> You can also write a with-functions macro that generates appropriate FLET bindings, such that (with-functions (g) BODY) turns into (flet ((g (&rest args) (apply g args))) BODY).
<shka_> serapeum fbind does that
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<jackdaniel> the most useful macro I have is the one ripped from cmuutils, namely the collecting macro
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<jackdaniel> syntactic sugar causes a parenthesis cancer (or so they say)
<beach> They do?
<jackdaniel> at least Alan Perlis did, it is a paraphrase. original was: "Syntactic sugar causes cancer of the semi-colons"
<beach> I know the original, but I had never seen the variation.
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<LdBeth> I think the orignal one applies to PL/I
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<SaganMan> lol jackdaniel
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<shka_> beach: do you always store the class of node in the container?
<beach> shka_: I don't understand.
<shka_> right
<shka_> (make-instance (leaf-class *tree*))
<shka_> i seen stuff like this before in your code
<beach> Oh, no I don't always do that.
<beach> But it can come in handy.
<beach> If some client wants leaves with additional information in them.
<shka_> wouldn't be it even better to have defgeneric make-leaf?
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<shka_> and dispatch on class of the tree
<beach> Sure, that's another solution.
<shka_> ok
<shka_> thanks, i will remember this trick
<beach> A third one is to have a generic function LEAF-CLASS that dispatches on the container class. The MOP does things like that.
<shka_> yeah, that's what i do in cl-ds
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<shka_> but i don't need that on internal node, so i do this only on leafs
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<shka_> interface passing style
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<frgo> Question (off topic): What kind of API authoring tools (Non-REST) and code generation tools are there that you guys are considering good stuff?
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<Shinmera> frgo: What do you mean?
<frgo> Shinmera: Some editor that allows me to create and maintain an API spec for functional APIs during design phase and then generate code from that API spec for a set of languages.
<frgo> I also need to create beautiful-looking PDFs from that spec.
<Shinmera> Then I can only say that everything I've seen that advertises to do this is a catastrophe in practise.
<frgo> No, unfortunately I can't use just some kind of DSL in Lisp for that.
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<frgo> Me too, so far. All the tools that are kind of doing the trick are for REST APIs. I don't need that yet.
<Shinmera> UML is the historical failure example
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<frgo> Yeah, but the one example that almost all SW developers are kind of used to.
<frgo> At least the Java people.
<Shinmera> poor souls
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<frgo> And I need to coordinate an API for Salesforce platform with a Non-Lisp company.
<pjb> frgo: have a look at elephant, the protocol generator.
<frgo> Oh - that'S a new one. Looking ....
<jackdaniel> frgo: thrift has language-agnostic protocol definitions
<jackdaniel> (and it covers wide variety of languages)
<jackdaniel> ((common lisp included))
<frgo> pjb: Where do I have to look for elephant?
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<frgo> jackdaniel: Looking ...
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<jackdaniel> what is nice such protocol may be used to interoperate between different languages (i.e Go vs CL)
<frgo> Thrift seems to be like the olden golden DCE IDL / Corba IDL.
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<pjb> frgo: sorry, it's named etiquette.
<pjb> elephant is a OO database.
<pjb> (hey! I had the first letter right!)
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<pjb> frgo: but actually, any generator can be good, for example, cl-ometa. or just your own custom macros.
<frgo> pjb: Thx. Still: Do you have a web URL for me? (I seem to be too dumb to ask google=
<frgo> )
<frgo> Thx!
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<AeroNotix> Are there any webrtc libraries available? A quick google doesn't turn up anything
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<shka_> beach: can i copy some parts of 2-3-tree implementation from climacs?
<shka_> and republish it as MIT
<beach> From CLIMatis?
<shka_> from climatis
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<shka_> names are confusing ;-)
<beach> I prefer BSD if that's fine with you.
<beach> The 2-clause BSD.
<shka_> hm, well actually i can change my license
<beach> I think the two are compatible.
<beach> Should not be a problem.
<shka_> they are
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<shka_> great, now i should finish that damn queue :]
<beach> Heh, yes, I see.
<shka_> i need it because without that writing some generators is kinda awkward
<beach> I see.
<shka_> which is annoying because it works just fine if i need a stack and list will do
<shka_> ok, got to do other stuff
<shka_> see you later!
<beach> Have fun.
<loke> beach: I went back to looking at presentations and copy&paste
<beach> Good.
<shka_> cleaning my floor is not fun but thanks :D
<loke> I have some problems though
<beach> What are they?
<loke> Well, remember that the issue I had was to find out a way to extend DEFINE-COMMAND such that it's possible to know the presentation type?
<beach> I do remember that.
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<loke> I haven't figured all of this out, but what I'm testin gis this:
<loke> I type the command "Copy to clipboard" and it will prompt me for an object to copy. At this point, all objects become clickable (since the command is specialised on T)
<beach> OK.
<loke> I click the command, then it records the actual object. Once I press return, it simply calls the COM-COPY-TO-CLIPBOARD function with this object as argument.
<loke> The issue, I think, is that the knowledge of the presentation type is lost at the point of clicking on the object. Everything after that only deals with the object.
<beach> Right.
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* loke also noted something else...
<loke> I was wondering why when I clicked on a Maxima equation, the copy-to-clipboard thing decided to copy the Lisp Sexp form... Turns out that since i have multiple presentaton-translators, once of which being the Maxima-expression-to-CLIM:EXPRESSION (so that I can insert maxima equations into the Lisp REPL), it decided to apply that translator when I clicked on the object.
<loke> I guess that was becasue that's the translator that was defined first.
<loke> I think this goes to show that having commands that specialise on T is problematic.
<beach> You do get a menu if you have multiple translators.
<beach> That way, the user can choose.
<beach> The menu is ordered alphabetically it seems, at least by default.
<loke> beach: Indeed. But in the case of the clipboard, you don't want any translation
<beach> Right.
<loke> beach: but... now that I'm thinking about it... Would the following stragegy work?
<loke> What if instead of specialising on T, I let com-copy-to-copy-to-clipboard specialise on some speaicl object, let's call it CLIPBOARD-OBJECT-WRAPPER or something like that. I can then have a single translator that translates any object T into a CLIPBOARD-OBJECT-WRAPPER byt simply instnatiating it like so: (make-instance clipboard-bject-wrapper :object OBJ)
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<beach> How will that solve the problem? It seems to me you still lose the presentation type. No?
<loke> beach: Hmm...
<loke> yes. oops.
<beach> I think you should turn this into a special kind of command.
<loke> At least the unwanted call to the translator will be avoided. So that's one problem solved.
<beach> ... and not use the standard mechanism for supplying arguments to commands.
<loke> But what if there is a way (by adding a feature, perhaps) to have the presentation-translator function know what the original presentation type was?
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<loke> Then the wrapper object could hold two slots: The object and the presentation type.
<beach> Sure, if you can find such a way.
<loke> Looking at the code for define-presentation-translator now...
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<loke> beach: yay. It should be possible.
<loke> The translator is called with the actual presentation object as one of its keyword arguments
<beach> Oh, excellent!
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<loke> Yes!
<loke> All I had to do was to add a second argument to the arglist in the translator named PRESENTATION
<beach> That's great!
<loke> Neat
<loke> I'll implement this thing tomorrow
<beach> At work? :)
<loke> It is funny that CLIM has so many magic symbol names thta can be user
<loke> used
<loke> Now that I know what to look for, it's actually documented in the entry for DEFINE-PRESENTATION-TRANSLATOR
<loke> "arglist, tester-arglist, and doc-arglist are each an argument list that must "match" the following "canonical" argument list.
<loke> In order to "match" the canonical argument list, there must be a single positional argument that corresponds to the presentation's object, and several named arguments that must match the canonical names above (using string-equal to do the comparison)."
<loke> (object &key presentation context-type frame event window x y)
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<beach> I see. I'll read it too.
<beach> Looks good.
<loke> OK, going to sleep now. I'll play around with this later.
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<beach> 'night loke.
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<shrdlu68> How is sxhash calculated for CLOS objects?
<Bike> implementation dependent
<Bike> sxhash has to work ont he level of EQUAL, but two distinct standard-objects are never equal, so
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<shrdlu68> I wish to sxhash the subsequence of a sequence without subseq'ing, any idea how I can do this?
<Bike> what are you using the sxhash for?
<pjb> shrdlu68: you don't have to read each element of a sequence to sxhash the sequence.
<pjb> shrdlu68: you can use just the two or three first elements, or the first the middle and the last one, etc.
<shrdlu68> Bike: Array index (mod (expt 2 24)), disregarding collisions (for now)
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<Bike> you mean you want the hash code to be an array index? and you want two distinct EQUAL objects to have the same index
<shrdlu68> Bike: Precisely.
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<Bike> if you really want to avoid subseq, i suppose i'd just use my own hash function, and mix up the elmeents
<shrdlu68> I see, thanks y'all.
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<shka_> shrdlu68: so you gave up on bit trie?
<shka_> it really isn't that hard to make it work :-)
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<shrdlu68> shka_: I didn't give up, just evalutating options :)
<shka_> right
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<shrdlu68> Haha, and I stopped inlining, which was messing profiling results. Found a major bottleck, now down to 5s with my 35kb test-file.
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<shrdlu68> shka_: sb-sprof results without inlining make much more sense: https://gist.github.com/shrdlu68/081a78c6196b676395ca518a268d9119
<shka_> yes
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* Xach is happy to have lparallel
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<holycow> neat vid about lisp use: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svmPz5oxMlI
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<Xach> that is our own stylewarning!
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<holycow> ha!
<holycow> hi Xach
<no-defun-allowed> Hello Xach
<j`ey> I was there while that was filmed!
<holycow> neat. where was this filmed?
<j`ey> Nottingham, UK
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<holycow> oh, it says it in the description, the interviewee has an almost canadian accent
<k-hos> any ideas why calling (compile-file "test.lisp" :system-p t) in ECLs repl would emit a .fasc file instead of an .o
<k-hos> doesn't seem to call gcc
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<LdBeth> k-hos (IRC): I suppose it’s equivalent to byte-compile
<k-hos> their examples on the site say :system-p t is supposed to make it emit .o files by invoking gcc
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<LdBeth> k-hos (IRC): on Darwin it works as expected
<LdBeth> What’s your OD
<LdBeth> OS
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<k-hos> windows 7, compiler is msys2 with mingw
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<k-hos> it probably thinks I don't have gcc, so it just defaults to .fasc
<k-hos> but I can't find any information about how to manually specify the compiler, or get it to emit just .c files
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<LdBeth> k-hos (IRC): seems you have to build ecl from source to config compiler
<k-hos> is the default for windows MSVC or something
<oni-on-ion> k-hos: env vars? "$ CC=gcc make" ?
<oni-on-ion> could you embed ECL instead ?
<k-hos> I kind of wanted to skip having to do that if ECL can generate an exe for me
<k-hos> environtment should be fine, since I am doing this all from msys2s bash
<oni-on-ion> k-hos: and you've seen this? https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/manual/ch26.html
<oni-on-ion> ahh. afaik on my tablet (win8.1) i've got ECL going with mingw
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<k-hos> I hadn't seen it, but I'm not sure how it applies
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<k-hos> standalone program is what I am trying to get, preferably by compiling all files involved and not loading them at run time
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<oni-on-ion> k-hos: well. bulding programs and choosing a C compiler i think are very related concepts. you did say that you checked the manual and i did not intend to not believe you but i did a google search and thats where i ended up
<oni-on-ion> i think if it loads C files at runtime that would be still just Compile Time.
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