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<Xach>
elderK: you know what else?
<francogrex>
Hi, do you know if there is a way to mprotect a memory address to make it exec from lisp?
<Xach>
francogrex: sure.
<Xach>
francogrex: not a standard way
<francogrex>
Xach yes ok i can live with the non-standard
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<francogrex>
it's more experimenting, I am trying to
<elderK>
Xach: nope? :D
<Xach>
elderK: the comments in the TeX sources
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<Xach>
elderK: also the gang of five email list, which was assumed private and has some gossipy snark
<elderK>
That sounds fun :D
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<francogrex>
cffi:foreign-funcall-pointer a pointer to execute an asm code, in my 32bit the address is executable, in 64 bit it isn't
<francogrex>
so I though it might be worth trying to mprotect and see if that works
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<elderK>
francogrex: Yeah, if you've created some... "machine code", you're going to need to tell the system to treat that data as executable, the pages that it lives on
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<elderK>
Otherwise, you'll get a fault.
<elderK>
So, you're going to want the memory you have that "code" in, page aligned, etc.
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<elderK>
So, I guess you'll need to use the FFI to acquire memory suitable for that "binary code", as well to make the relevant pages executable.
<francogrex>
elderK: yes :) I understand the principle. but now the practical Q is how?
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<elderK>
Use the FFI to give you access to functions to say, allocate foreign aligned memory.
<francogrex>
do you have a pointer, a address (no pun intended) of a webpage that explains that?
<elderK>
defcfun, etc.
<elderK>
Just the CFFI manual I'm afraid.
<elderK>
Or do you mean the actual calls you need to make memory like, executable?
<francogrex>
elderK: yes the actual calls to make the mem address exec
<elderK>
What you're probably going to want to do, is study the mmap and mprotect functions.
<francogrex>
ok, i suppose that sbcl has already as a core function
<elderK>
Studying the relevant manpages for those functions, and related ones, should do the trick.
<elderK>
:)
<elderK>
Yeah, mprotect will do it.
<elderK>
If sbcl doesn't give you some call for that, you'll need to use CFFI.
<elderK>
:) Hope that helps some.
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<francogrex>
elderK: yes i actually could use the cffi to do those indeed (in an impl independent way)
<francogrex>
thx
<elderK>
NP Glad to help :)
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<luis>
The CFFI manual includes an FFI tutorial, FWIW.
<pjb>
francogrex: the how is easy: write it in C; the translate it to lisp using CFFI for the calls and data structures that cannot be translated.
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<jcowan>
Better yet, write a C->CL compiler (or better, get Vacietis working). "Build a man a fire", etc.
<beach>
froggey wrote a translator from LLVM IR to Common Lisp that is used in Mezzano.
<jcowan>
Nice
<elderK>
Goodnight all :)
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<wusticality>
hey folks, i had a question about clojures in CL
<wusticality>
how are the actually implemented? that is, if i have something like this:
<beach>
Do you mean closures?
<wusticality>
(let ((x 10)) (lambda () (incf x))) ; not sure if this is quite right
<beach>
Looks right.
<wusticality>
haha yeah beach, apologies, i've been working in clojure forever haha
<wusticality>
that's funny
<Xach>
wusticality: there is a lot of freedom of implementation, as long as the results are consistent
<Xach>
wusticality: there's a great book that lays out many options, it's called Lisp in Small Pieces.
<wusticality>
is only the -binding- for x captured in the closure, or is the entire lexical environment somehow
<wusticality>
Xach: awesome i'll take alook
<beach>
A function can be thought of as an environment and some code. When the function is called, the caller provides the environment to the callee. The callee can then create lexical variables extending the base one.
<wusticality>
another question is if it's somehow done by the compiler / interpreter, or if it's somehow done with the respective function / macros let / lambda
<wusticality>
beach: interesting - so is the callee's environment somehow passed as an invisible argument to the callee?
<beach>
wusticality: The LAMBDA turns into some code that captures the current environment and packages it up to become the closure, i.e, the code/environment pair.
<beach>
wusticality: Yes, typically in a register.
<wusticality>
beach: is that an artifact of the lambda special form, or via a macro, or what? i'm mostly just curious if it's done in lisp somehow, or if it's an artifact of the compiler
<Xach>
there's an older book called Anatomy of Lisp that may be available more cheaply, but I did not find time to read it and I don't know if it is useful on this topic.
<beach>
Xach: I think it is useful.
<beach>
wusticality: I don't know why you are talking about artifacts. And why you make a difference between "the compiler" and "lisp".
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<beach>
wusticality: The compiler detects that X might be captured, so X is not allocated on the stack or in a register as it otherwise would.
<wusticality>
I mean, I'm super familiar with closures, but reading Practical Common Lisp, I'm curious how it's actually implemented - that is, at the compiler / interpreter level or in lisp somehow using some macro magic
<wusticality>
ah
<Xach>
wusticality: Lisp in Small Pieces does a nice progression from a slow interpreter to a fast one by showing the tricks that can be brought to bear for efficiency.
<Xach>
it is pretty neat
<beach>
wusticality: Instead, it is allocated on the heap in some kind of structure. The compiler generates code for LAMBDA that captures that structure and the code for the function and creates a closure object.
<wusticality>
i see, so lambda is definitely a special form i'm guessing
<shka_>
it is
<wusticality>
ahh
<beach>
wusticality: When the closure object is called, the compiler has arranged for the caller to grab the environment out of the closure object, stick it in some pre-defined place, and call the code of the function.
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<wusticality>
interesting
<wusticality>
i definitely want to read more about how it's implemented, i'll check out those boks
<wusticality>
*books
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<jcowan>
alas, LiSP costs an arm and a leg and I know of no bootleg.
<jcowan>
(in English)
<beach>
jcowan: If you find a bootleg, I would like to know so that I can report it to the translator (who is my wife).
<Xach>
I thought technical books were expensive until I got a tractor and priced useful attachments for it
<pjb>
It doesn't cost that much. Just use Amazon and buy it!
<pjb>
72 euro.
<wusticality>
pjb: which book
<pjb>
LiSP.
<sjl_>
Lisp in Small Pieces, which people confusingly abbreviate as "LiSP" to be punny.
<beach>
Isn't the French version of it or its successor available online?
<wusticality>
copy paste, run through google translate :P
<wusticality>
j/k
<jcowan>
I think not.
<pjb>
Nope.
<beach>
OK.
<beach>
I don't know where I got that from.
<pjb>
And there's a 2nd edition in French that has not been translated yet AFAIK.
<jcowan>
AFAIK there is no English version of the 2nd ed.
<beach>
pjb: yes, that is true.
<beach>
I don't think it will be.
<beach>
At least, my wife has not been contacted about it. :)
<pjb>
They can learn French.
<jcowan>
I think more than twice before I buy any book costing more than USD 5 (approx EUR 4.5)
<pjb>
jcowan: let that motivate you to read it!
<jcowan>
People have learned languages to read just one book (notably Hebrew)
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<beach>
Speaking of which, I should try to learn some Italian before I go to ELS2019.
<jcowan>
My life expectancy does not permit me to think as many times as it would take to justify a purchase of that size. Not to mention the time it takes to learn French.
<wusticality>
i'm surprised LiSP is not *ahem* available on google somewhere
<beach>
wusticality: Like I said, if you find it, I will report it to the translator.
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<beach>
wusticality: She certainly would not sign your copy at ELS even if you begged her.
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<shka_>
hm
<shka_>
first link that popped up in google shows 384,50 PLN for this book
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<wusticality>
i supposed another question is, is it any good
<wusticality>
(i'm guessing so)
<shka_>
that would be just over $100
<shka_>
or about 90 euro
<beach>
wusticality: It is quite good.
<wusticality>
I'll throw it on the reading list
<wusticality>
ttfn, gotta switch locations
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<shka_>
well, i gotta go
<shka_>
see you all later
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<jcowan>
$100 is the price I'm familiar with.
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<luis>
The LIDL supermarkets were selling chainsaws a while ago but I couldn't convince myself (or my SO) that I actually needed one. It was quite tempting, though.
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<shka_>
good evening
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<LdBeth>
Good morning
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<dim>
I'm not seeing anyway to fix that pesky SSL problem... I enjoy CL but sometimes I entertain thoughts of moving to a platform where I'm not alone with my difficulties, or just don't have them because someone else needed them fixed and it's been done already (not saying that racket or guile might be such platforms)
<dim>
maybe I should just port pgloader to the JVM thanks to ABCL that said
<anamorphic>
Xach: that's an awesome article
<anamorphic>
I need to go poking around those Erik Naggum archives...
<jcowan>
I did that a few weeks ago, and it was fun at first but eventually a monstrous weariness of spirit came over me
<jcowan>
the dead attacking the deaa
<jcowan>
dead
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<jmercouris>
how does one make a lexical context?
<jmercouris>
I've read "LET creates its own lexical context within the lexical context of the enclosing function"
<jmercouris>
how does it do that?
<LdBeth>
((lambda (x) (lambda () x)) 1)
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<jmercouris>
macroexpanding let within sbcl yields nothing interesting
<LdBeth>
because in CL lambda and let are not implemented like the same way is scheme
<LdBeth>
^ in
<jmercouris>
right, I'm not interested in Scheme
<astalla>
It is a special operator, the evaluator and the compiler treat it specially. But yes, at the core you can imagine it as a function application.
<LdBeth>
but they are still equivenlent in the sense of formal definition
<jmercouris>
I see, so it makes an anonymous function to create a lexical context?
<Bike>
No.
<Bike>
That's just something that would be equivalen.t
<jmercouris>
I see
<Bike>
Let makes a lexical context because it does. That is what it is defined to do.
<jmercouris>
Bike: what does it actually do?
<jmercouris>
okay, it has access to something special that we do not
<Bike>
Sure you do. You can use LET.
<jmercouris>
and if we are to reimplement let ourselves, we'd have to use anonymous functions as closures?
<jmercouris>
am I getting it right?
<LdBeth>
create a data sctructure called lexical context
<Bike>
Depends on what kind of reimplementation you have in mind.
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<astalla>
No, it does not. It is special-cased by the compiler/evaluator. But conceptually, it works as if it were a function application - without the overhead.
<Bike>
You could define a LET macro expanding into calls to anonymous functions, sure.
<jmercouris>
and what about let*, how might that look?
<Bike>
let* is just a bunch of lets in a row, if you don't mind the declarations.
<pjb>
dim: the solution is to prepare a chain of certificate up to the CA, and to specify it to cl+ssl so it can do the verification. Disabling the verifications defeats the purpose of using SSL!
<jmercouris>
Bike: a function that is enclosed by another, does it have access to the parent functions variables?
<LdBeth>
of cause
<Bike>
It can refer to outside bindings, yes. That's what a closure is.
<pjb>
dim: use (CL+SSL:USE-CERTIFICATE-CHAIN-FILE certificate-chain-file)
<jmercouris>
(lambda (x) (setf x 10) (lambda (y) (print x)))?
<Bike>
Sure.
<pjb>
dim: the chain file is the concatenation of the .pem of the certificates.
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<dim>
pjb: why the other SSL tools are okay with the OS defaults and not CL+SSL?
<pjb>
dim: perhaps CL+SSL doesn't know how to access the system CA chain?
<pjb>
the fact is they are installed all over the place.
<pjb>
Each application (ie. browser) has its own…
<dim>
in that case I'm doing PostgreSQL protocol with ssl and comparing to psql
<pjb>
if you know where the OS default chain is, you can give that path to cl+ssl.
<pjb>
For example, on my system /etc/ssl/certs/ is empty :-(
<pjb>
I've got a /opt/local/libexec/qt4/certs/rootcerts.pem
<dim>
on my laptop it seems to be /etc/ssl/cert.pem, on this pgloader user's debian system there are 456 files in /etc/ssl/certs, and I need to fix the problem for any pgloader's user, now and future
<dim>
it need to just work, as works psql and many other apps just by default, without having me to do anything system specific each time
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<pjb>
And there are a few more .pem files that seem to contain certs in /Applications/*.app
<dim>
it seems to always come at a surprise here that someone would ship software written in CL to users who know nothing about CL, sometimes I'm thinking I'm doing it wrong :/
<pjb>
No, you're a pioneer :-)
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<dim>
are we still talking about that programming language with a standard fixed in the 90s? it could be funny if it wasn't 2018 already
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<Xach>
dim: i wish i could help
<anamorphic>
dim: so what are you coding anyway?
<dim>
anamorphic: pgloader, it's on github, it does many things related to loading data in PostgreSQL, including full database migrations
<Xach>
i wish the situation with secure connections was a lot better
<anamorphic>
Oh yeah, pgloader is famous for switching from python to CL I think
<Xach>
dim knows a bit about that story
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<dim>
it's less often that I tell it, and I still love the parts when I say that I searched for a modern programming language after having lost patience in the Python 2/3 situation ;-)
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<anamorphic>
Funny how one needs to search the past to find a modern language
<dim>
it stops being funny when you're the only one who can't establish a secure connection in between a given client and server both having openssl available in the OS, believe me
<Xach>
dim: is it something you can reproduce locally?
<anamorphic>
Yeah I totally understand that.
<dim>
if I search for “postgresql X509_V_ERR_UNABLE_TO_GET_ISSUER_CERT_LOCALLY” 2 of the first page of answers on google are pgloader issues
<anamorphic>
Yeah I have postgres running here - maybe if you can post a lisp paste (?) Can try it out
<dim>
just open a connection using Postmodern and with a URL that requires SSL
<anamorphic>
OK
<anamorphic>
What impl do you happen to be using
<dim>
you can first do the following in your shell: psql postgres://localhost:5432/dbname?sslmode=require to see it working
<dim>
here it's with SBCL (because CCL is currently broken)
* Xach
tries to do it with dockerr
<dim>
thanks guys, I appreciate your help
<astalla>
dim: have you tried asking to the CL+SSL maintainer(s)?
<anamorphic>
Same (docker)
<anamorphic>
dim: what version of postgres?
<dim>
any would do I guess, this one happens to be PostgreSQL 10.5
<anamorphic>
OK I have 11.1.. Will try with that anyway
<dim>
thanks!
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<anamorphic>
dim: OK psql postgres://localhost:5432/template1 -U postgres sslmode=require sees to work
<anamorphic>
dim: do you happen to have a convienient postmodern code snippet handy? I've not used postmodern before
<dim>
oh, if I set cl+ssl:*make-ssl-client-stream-verify-default* to nil then it connects on the laptop it seems
<dim>
because otherwise it's like it still requires even if in the context you ask it not to... for reasons
<anamorphic>
Hmmm I've never used that before
<anamorphic>
Are you on the Windows?
<dim>
yeah it seems to make the deal on the other server too
<dim>
so as pjb said of course that breaks the whole idea of being secure, to a large extend, so it should not be the default
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell schweers when he/she/it next speaks.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I'm not sure if it's great code, and it's entirely undocumented since it was mostly a quick hack, but it did work.
<anamorphic>
dim: Well today I learned that postmodern has a lovely API. Previously I used CL-SQL
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<pjb>
dim: I don't find any ssl stuff with my postgres installation; perhaps it uses openssl, and you'd have to look where openssl seeks the systemwide chain by default. Otherwise have a look at the documentation or sources; I'd guess you'll have to reproduce the code searching for that file in lisp…
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<dim>
what PostgreSQL does is call SSL_set_verify(conn->ssl, SSL_VERIFY_PEER, verify_cb), that's it, so the rest lies in OpenSSL itself
<housel>
You could run postgresql under strace to see what files it's trying to open
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<dim>
or I can expose the setting (cl+ssl:*make-ssl-client-stream-verify-default* nil) to the end user so that when then get CA failure they may choose to disable cert verification altogether
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<anamorphic>
dim: (member :windows *features*)?
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
dim: you could add a restart like disable-cert-verification
<dim>
fiddlerwoaroof: my audience is people that know nothing about CL, restart isn't the right approach here, even though I love that they exist
<dim>
but yeah I'm thinking of pgloader --no-ssl-cert-verification
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Well, you could use handler-bind to say something like "SSL Certificate Verification failed, retry with verification disabled?"
<fiddlerwoaroof>
And then supress that message if --no-ssl-cert-verification flag is passed
<dim>
yes something like that is what I have in mind
<dim>
it still feels wrong on many levels, but at least would render pgloader usable in some cases rather than none
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I dunno, I think it's pretty standard to use this sort of pattern in common lisp
<fiddlerwoaroof>
low level code signals a condition, libraries add recovery methods via restarts and your toplevel handles conditions and invokes the appropriate recovery method
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<pjb>
housel: strace is not enough, it may have an algorithm looking in some data structure before trying to syscall.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I wish we had a non-lisper friendly command line debugger.
<pjb>
housel: like, searching in environment variables…
<pjb>
Don't disable ssl verification. Teach people on how to install certificates, and make it easy to do.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
pjb: I know, my free-time project backlog is pretty full
<pjb>
Win the lotto, hire lispers to implement it ;-)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I'm hoping someone uses that strategy to hire me
<dim>
pjb: you're saying that as if you knew how to make it happen. any specific advice how to make it easy for CL on machines you're never supposed to log in?
<LdBeth>
fiddlerwoaroof: me too
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<dim>
and now after like a dozen builds, I randomly get The alien function "CRYPTO_num_locks" is undefined.
<dim>
who's wanting to fix CL handling of .so libs? please?
<dim>
(oh ok I had removed a patch to src/hooks.lisp that fixes that problem on debian, but not sure if it's helpful on other OSes)
<anamorphic>
Man it sucks that you're running into probs... Is this one a matter of email cl+ssl maintainer, hey updated the .so.N version?
<copec>
What is the typical license for open projects that this community has gravitated towards?
<fe[nl]ix>
dim: what is your TLS issue ?
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<dim>
fe[nl]ix: certs verification failing with CL+SSL and succeeding with psql
<dim>
maybe the hook to (cl+ssl:reload) should always be there
<fe[nl]ix>
what is the root cause ?
<fe[nl]ix>
copec: there is no Lisp community
<fe[nl]ix>
copec: but MIT is the most common
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<copec>
Thanks!
<pjb>
dim: well, yes it may be difficult to know for random machines. That's why applications are bundled with their own certificate chains.
<fe[nl]ix>
dim: I have a plan to fix the library issue for the common cases
<pjb>
dim: did you link with libcrypto?
<dim>
PostgreSQL doesn't have its own chain, so I don't know what's next there
<p_l>
pjb: well, linux systems using openssl have somewhat standard location for "Web-friendly" list of CAs
<p_l>
as well as ways to add certs there
<dim>
fe[nl]ix: if you need guinea pigs I'll find some time!
<pjb>
dim: if you linked with libcrypto, check that the symbol is present in it. Otherwise, you may need a different version of openssl.
<fe[nl]ix>
dim: I'll try to write something down soon
<pjb>
copec: I use AGPL3.
<p_l>
dim: best would be if system default store (on typical linux system, it's in /etc/ssl, is used
<dim>
pjb: this one is a classic of CL+SSL when used in an image that you restart, you need to (cl+ssl:reload) for reasons
<copec>
Do you have a public repo profile (of projects) pjb?
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<dim>
how to signal another thread/worker when using lparallel?
<dim>
kill-tasks it is
<jasom>
So I was looking at low-hanging fruit on the benchmark game, and noticed that OCaml was desetroying sbcl on the binary-trees test (this is essentially a GC/allocation test). I peeked at the code, and it was forking a new process for each parallel task, thus *greatly* reducing the peak heap size for any process. Applying the same change to sbcl got a 3x speedup
<no-defun-allowed>
well that's slightly cheating but ok
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<aeth>
They all cheat
<Odin->
"Let's outsource GC to the operating system"?
<aeth>
You see things like FFI, inline assembly, etc.
<jasom>
no-defun-allowed: this is within the parameters of the benchmark; the liveness is defined for each item, and this does not change that
<no-defun-allowed>
alright
<jasom>
aeth: I thought inline assembly was no longer allowed (they changed the rules a bit in the past couple years)
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<aeth>
I guess you could argue that that's not inline assembly?
<jasom>
interesting
<aeth>
Are libraries allowed? Because if there are you can't really avoid define-vop because some libraries can use it to provide a fast path for SBCL
<jasom>
indeed there appears to be no rule against inline assembly.
<Odin->
Why should there be?
<Odin->
I mean, if there was, shouldn't there also be a rule against using optimisation directives?
<aeth>
Anyway, no matter what the rules are, what you wind up with is... basically... programs micro-optimized to the extent that you'll never, ever see in the wild, except maybe in a BLAS+LAPACK implementation or something (and *that* in itself might itself be gaming benchmarks in a sense because LAPACK is afaik often used to benchmark)
<Odin->
You don't need many operations to go from "benchmarks game" to "gamed benchmarks".
<White_Flame>
"Metrics are a wonderful servant, but a terrible master."
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<asdf_asdf_asdf>
Hi. Did in Common Lisp are events? I want use: (event-control-left 25), but in Lisp not have events. In JS is: addEventListener?
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<Odin->
That's not actually a language feature of JavaScript.
<Odin->
I think it's considered a part of the DOM.
<Odin->
What's the context for this code?
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
I want in console CMD in Windows move (shift) letter "a" about 10 position in right for example.
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<asdf_asdf_asdf>
Common Lisp in standard package not support events?