mbishop changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | Grab OCaml 3.10.2 from http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/release.html (featuring new camlp4 and more!)
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* rwmjones suspects no one has ever used GTree.icon_view
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<orbitz> can i dynamically load a module, like a plugin?
<Smerdyakov> Only in bytecode, or with some relatively new extension for native code that I'm not very familiar with.
<orbitz> what API?
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<flx> module Dynlink
<orbitz> thank you
<flx> btw, when you find the time, I suggest browsing through the list of available standard module; the list isn't long
<Yoric[DT]> (Or Asmdynlink for native code)
<flx> is that already in the main fork?
<flx> hm, s/fork/branch/
<Yoric[DT]> Not that I remember.
<Yoric[DT]> But I vaguely remember being able to download and use it several years ago.
<Yoric[DT]> Actually, it was to dynamically link bytecode plug-ins to a native program.
<Yoric[DT]> Probably not the same thing after all.
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<bluestorm> the accepted OSP projects have been published 3 days ago
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<bluestorm> they're interesting
<flx> quiet ambitious some
<bluestorm> however, it seems to me that the proportion of french students is much higher as last year
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<bluestorm> i'm not sure about this because i don't remember the composition of last year teams
<bluestorm> s/as/than/
<bluestorm> let's hope that the projects will live longer that last year's one, anyway
<orbitz> i'd like to see the arithmetic one the most
<orbitz> the scope of the project i sa little bit beyond what i'd expect though, not sure if it's a good thing
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<bluestorm> orbitz: what would you expect ?
<bluestorm> (i must say i was a bit puzzled by that Complex.(... i ...) thing too)
<orbitz> bluestorm: i would have expected what it plans on making work still being just ocaml valid syntax, just translating it to correct types
<orbitz> one of the examples want juxtaposition to mean multiplication
<orbitz> maybe they are taking tips from Fortress?
<bluestorm> hm
<bluestorm> i'm not sure what example you're talking about
<orbitz> flx: d'oh, i'm so stupid, if i had just scrolled down another inch on the ocaml wesite i would have seen dynlink
<orbitz> A convenience extension will
<orbitz> be provided so that, for any module X, it is easy to enable the transformation
<orbitz> of expressions like X.(3x+x*y) into X.add (X.mul (X.of_int 3) x)
<orbitz> (X.mul x y)
<bluestorm> ah, i see
<orbitz> what do you think of the proposal bluestorm ?
<bluestorm> hm
<flx> it does go quite far (maybe too far :-o)
<flx> but maybe it's ok
<bluestorm> better that the QtCaml's one :-'
<bluestorm> -t+n
<orbitz> i didn't read that one, is it ugly?
<flx> really?
<flx> wouldn't it be nice to have better C/C++ conversion tools for ocaml
<flx> (well, interface mapping or what one would call it)
<bluestorm> hm
<bluestorm> of course it would be nice but
<Yoric[DT]> Nice.
<Yoric[DT]> (I'm talking about OSP)
<Smerdyakov> Oh. I was talking about the mating habits of dust mites.
<orbitz> Smerdyakov: technically you weren't talking at al
<Smerdyakov> I sure was. Just ask Al.
<bluestorm> The QtCaml proposal insists on not that interesting choices (gccxml, and creating a GUI for that), and doesn't mention at all the part that seems important to me : what will the ocaml-side code/library looks like ?
<bluestorm> anyway
<bluestorm> orbitz: the camlp4 proposal goes quite far indeed, but if it's done in a modular/layered way, i don't think the overall complexity would hurt the simple use case
<bluestorm> if you're afraid of an unnecessary complexity, i think you could see how the project goes, and maybe contact the involved students, i'd guess they would be glad to hear an interested user's wishes
<bluestorm> btw Yoric[DT], now that the ocaml forge is set up, what about putting your lazy list stuff on it ?
<bluestorm> they're looking for projects now, and a bit of visibility wouldn't hurt on your side
<orbitz> certainlyu as a user the extra complexity should not effect me as i can decide not to use it, it just seems like it is trying to go that extra step to be like writing math than the project explicitly states, but hopefully it works out as i'd love me some easy to use expressions
<Yoric[DT]> bluestorm: I'll do that.
<Yoric[DT]> Just toooo tired to think right now.
<bluestorm> :p
* Yoric[DT] is having a rough year.
<orbitz> it's no even may!
<Yoric[DT]> I know.
<Yoric[DT]> But I've been working full-time-and-a-half since September.
<Yoric[DT]> Actually, since September 2006.
<Smerdyakov> Yoric[DT], what leads you to decide to work full-time-and-a-half?
<Yoric[DT]> Who said I had any word in that decision ?
<Smerdyakov> Yoric[DT], I don't know of any situations in French society where people are forced to work.
<Smerdyakov> (Unless they committed a crime, maybe :-)
<Yoric[DT]> :)
<Yoric[DT]> Well, I have a full-time work as a lecturer.
<bluestorm> i'm not sure work in prison is mandatory
<Yoric[DT]> Plus it turns out that the system/network administrator is less competent than I was when I was 14.
<Yoric[DT]> So whenever someone needs something done, they ask me, not him.
<Smerdyakov> Yoric[DT], you should just recognize that you are choosing to do that work.
<Yoric[DT]> Roughly, that's +25% .
<Yoric[DT]> In addition to which there's this "oh, we're one lecture short, we're not going to hire someone else to do it -- plus you're the only one who knows anything about compilers -- plus that's the only way you're going to get students to work on projects related to your research -- would you mind doing it ?"
<Yoric[DT]> So yes, at some level, I am deciding that this work needs to be done and that I'm willing to sacrifice some sleep to get it done.
<Smerdyakov> Well, thanks for reinforcing my inclination to avoid faculty jobs. :)
<Yoric[DT]> My pleasure.
<Yoric[DT]> But don't worry, with our Beloved President, it's going to get worse before it gets better.
<bluestorm> hm
<Smerdyakov> I wasn't considering French faculty positions, anyway. Those seem to be very disheartening everywhere but at the Ecoles Normales or however that's gosh darned spelled.
<Yoric[DT]> That's if it gets any better at all.
<Yoric[DT]> They're cutting down on budgets, decreasing the number of lecturers, increasing the number of hours, vaguely mentioning carrots and increasing the length of the stick.
<Smerdyakov> I'm going to be starting a 60%-time post-doc soon, while working on a start-up company in the other 40%.
<Yoric[DT]> Plus, but that's my personal problem, I am in a very-much-applied research team, while I'd like to do fundamental research.
<bluestorm> Smerdyakov: i'm quite sure it is possible to work "a lot" in every interesting job out there, not only faculty jobs
<Smerdyakov> Hopefully 2 years is long enough to make a cartload of money with the start-up. :-)
<Yoric[DT]> :)
<Yoric[DT]> What kind of start-up ?
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<Smerdyakov> Programming language design and implementation, sold in a way where the customers don't realize that's the source of the value added. :)
<bluestorm> do you plan to go back to research after that ?
<Yoric[DT]> Smerdyakov: nice.
<Yoric[DT]> That's the kind of thing I'd want to do if I weren't in research.
<Yoric[DT]> That's also the kind of thing I'm trying to do during research hours, of course :)
<Smerdyakov> If I "solve the money problem," in Paul Graham's words, then one of the first things to do will be develop a new OS/computing platform where everything is verified and everything has the right interface, based on static types.
<bluestorm> alone ?
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<Smerdyakov> I think I could do it alone over years, but it would be nice to have help. :)
<Smerdyakov> I expect to have a certified core ML compiler soon in my research work, and that would be nice to develop into something production quality, too.
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<Yoric[DT]> Smerdyakov: well, keep us updated.
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<orbitz> i hope 40% of your time equasl 100% of my time cuz start-ups are lots of time.
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<delamarche> looking over extlib now
<delamarche> it rocks
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<delamarche> I'm not sure if this has been done (can't find it on the hump) but I'd like to see a bit more done with streams... like a 'map' and folds at least
<delamarche> i realize that this will materialize the entire stream
<delamarche> so i guess it's just a one-liner to from_list it instead
* delamarche is thinking out loud
<Yoric[DT]> I have it in one of my modules.
<delamarche> Public, or is it a secret homebrew module that gives you a competitive advantage in some niche industry? :D
<delamarche> oscigen looks really cool too
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<Yoric[DT]> :)
<Yoric[DT]> Public, being reworked to be more presentable (and to use ExtLib).
<Yoric[DT]> I'll try and release a new version this month and put it on OCamlForge.
<delamarche> Awesome!
<delamarche> i've been away from ocaml for too long... I forgot how much fun it was.
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<Yoric[DT]> Yeah, I had the same reflex last year when I returned to OCaml.
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<delamarche> I've moved to a new city where I don't have many contacts and I'm looking for work, so I'm brushing up on data structures / algorithms-ish type problems so I can crush interviews... writing solutions to Bentley's Programming Pearls right now
<delamarche> so I decided to throw some OCaml at it to keep things interesting
<delamarche> although if I start mapping and fold_lefting in an interview, I imagine they're going to look at me funny
<Yoric[DT]> Well, I had an interview a few months ago.
<Yoric[DT]> Big software services company.
<Yoric[DT]> They had never heard about OCaml.
<Yoric[DT]> So I told them it shared some ideas with Lisp & Python :)
<delamarche> Hopefully they'd heard of those :)
<Yoric[DT]> They were very interested in Python.
<delamarche> I heart python.
<Yoric[DT]> :)
<delamarche> But after programming in any language for a while I feel the need to switch up
<delamarche> Familiarity breeding contempt, and all that.
<Yoric[DT]> Yeah.
<Yoric[DT]> Sometimes, I wish I programmed in Haskell :)
<Yoric[DT]> Usually, this lasts until I need printf :)
<delamarche> hahahaha
<delamarche> I still haven't tried Haskell yet.
<delamarche> I keep flipflopping between Scheme and OCaml
<delamarche> Scheme feels like the programming equivalent of doing yoga
<delamarche> It's just like, this is so relaxing, face the sun, breathe deeply, watch the parentheses fade away and all becomes clear
<Yoric[DT]> I have the same feeling with Haskell.
<Yoric[DT]> The absence of printf is probably the equivalent of not being able to fetch some beverage while you're doing yoga, or something such.
<delamarche> Really? I should try it.
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<delamarche> Heh.
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<delamarche> argh.
<delamarche> No iteri in stream either
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<Jedai> Though I'm very late on this issue, printf is available in Haskell (in the Text.Printf library, standard in GHC)
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<mfp> Jedai: not quite the same, is it? "Mismatch between the argument types and the format string will cause an exception to be thrown at runtime."
<jlouis> haha
<jlouis> runtime error is equivalent to fail :)
<jlouis> Go read http://www.brics.dk/RS/98/12/ ;)
<mfp> just one step away from "untyped", at least it's not "Mismatch between the argument types and the format string will cause unspecified behavior at runtime."
<mfp> the functional unparsing paper again? :)
<bluestorm> there are several ones out there :-'
<mfp> was it also in a functional pearl, or maybe I'm just confusing it with the one on pickler combinators (which was a functional pearl, and referred to Danvy's paper)
<bluestorm> seems it was even made into a "proof pearl" : http://www-verimag.imag.fr/~monin/Publis/tphols04.ps
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<orbitz> any good tutorials on using all the ocaml tools to build a project?
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<Anarchos> hmmm the last commit of alan frisch in driver/optmain.ml let my compilation failed :/
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