flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 4.00.1 http://bit.ly/UHeZyT | http://www.ocaml.org | Public logs at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/ocaml/
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<Anarchos> Say f() is a C function using CAMLparam macros and doing callbacks to ocaml. Is it mandatory to call caml_acquire_runtime_system before CAMLparam macros if there are multiple C threads calling this function f() at the same time ?
<mrvn> don't drop the lock in the first place
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<mrvn> But if you don't have it then you haave to acquire it
<wmeyer`> hi
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<pippijn> Anarchos: whenever you call ocaml code, you must acquire the lock
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<wmeyer> hi pippijn
<wmeyer> it's so sunny here
<pippijn> hi
<pippijn> same here
<Anarchos> pippijn yes but CAMLlocal, is it thread safe if i used caml_c_thread_register previously ?
<Anarchos> my experience says not...
<Drup> not same here, and I'm quite happy not to feel like in an oven again. ;)
<pippijn> Anarchos: what about CAMLlocal?
<wmeyer> Drup: it has certain advantages! (especially on the beach; under umbrella; with a coctail; and laptop - never tried but may do so) here was quite hot for past few days, now it's chiling, but the sun is quite remarkable
<pippijn> whenever you do something that involves the runtime (such as allocating memory, serialisation, ...) you need to acquire the lock
<mrvn> I would acquire the lock
<mrvn> and carefull with your OCAMLParams, that won't do without lock
* wmeyer eating French camembert mhmmm
<pippijn> CAMLparam modifies global data, so you need a lock
<mrvn> eating fried French^W^WFrench fries.
<wmeyer> mrvn: with vinegar?
<mrvn> read&white
<mrvn> no mustard, no vinegar. bah
<wmeyer> if it's not vinegar then it's not french (myself never risked adding vinegar to fries))
<pippijn> vinegar..
<pippijn> that's british :\
<Anarchos> pippijn it is not mentionend in the official doc ??
<wmeyer> yeah, it came from France!
<pippijn> vinegar and ink
<wmeyer> but it's common
<wmeyer> but i don't do this
<wmeyer> maybe when i will have a british citizenship i will start
<pippijn> I wouldn't
<wmeyer> y
<Drup> wmeyer: vinegar in fries ? O_o I'm not sure we're talking about the same france here
<wmeyer> Drup: I thought you add vinegar to everything
<Anarchos> pippijn the manual just says to call caml_c_thread_register, not to acquire the runtime lock before CAMLparam macros
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<pippijn> The OCaml run-time system is not reentrant: at any time, at most one thread can be executing OCaml code or C code that uses the OCaml run-time system. Technically, this is enforced by a “master lock” that any thread must hold while executing such code.
<wmeyer> Drup: sorry to accuses you for such perversion
<Anarchos> pippijn i know that. I am just trying to do callbacks from external C threads
<pippijn> wmeyer: it's really british ;)
<wmeyer> nice
<pippijn> Anarchos: any code that uses the ocaml runtime system needs to acquire the lock
<wmeyer> i have to try once
<pippijn> Anarchos: so the manual says that
<Anarchos> pippijn don't miss my point : i use caml_acquire/release_runtime_system around each of my caml_callback code.
<pippijn> wmeyer: chips with vinegar and ink
<wmeyer> you know in TESCO near my work there is a small restaurant they sell fish & chips and vinegar as well
<pippijn> Anarchos: you don't get it?
<pippijn> Anarchos: CAMLparam *is* using the ocaml runtime system
<Anarchos> pippijn i called caml_c_thread_register in each of my C threads
<pippijn> that's fine
<pippijn> that doesn't change the fact that you are using the ocaml runtime system and thus need to acquire the lock
<mrvn> Anarchos: I would call caml_c_thread_register, acquire, and then a sub function that uses CAML*
<wmeyer> and then I'd use fork() :-D
* wmeyer in a dinner mood
<pippijn> I made a debian package for parmap
<pippijn> ubuntu
<wmeyer> nice
<Anarchos> pippijn now i get it, but i may prefer to see that explicitely stated in the doc :)
<pippijn> 19.10.2
<pippijn> first line
<mrvn> pippijn: upload to debian (mentors.d.n)
<wmeyer> xmonad is nice
<wmeyer> nicer than stumpwm
<wmeyer> when i fix my desktop i am going to get rid of this 500LOC of Lisp
<pippijn> mrvn: I don't want to maintain it :\
<pippijn> maybe after upstream accepted my patch
<Anarchos> pippijn thanks a lot. I just didn't make the point that CAMLXXX macros ARE part of the non-reentrant runtime system
<pippijn> Anarchos: ok
<mrvn> pippijn: There is an ocaml team you can push the package to
<wmeyer> Anarchos: of course, they register the stack frame
<wmeyer> pippijn: why don't use OPAM
<pippijn> I don't think they like it
<pippijn> wmeyer: because I want to support ubuntu LTS
<wmeyer> there is OPAM ppa on LTS
<wmeyer> everybody uses OPAM
<pippijn> hmm
<pippijn> yes, I know, and you've taken every opportunity to tell me
<mrvn> wmeyer: and will horribly break on the next ocaml update
<mrvn> mixing packaging systems is a bad idea
<rks`_> wmeyer: gerd would be very saddened by your words
<Anarchos> wmeyer i thought that caml_c_thread_register install a stack frame specific to each thread
<wmeyer> rks`_: I know, but I was a happy user of GODI
<wmeyer> and i know the merrits, OPAM worked for me better
<wmeyer> to be honest, but I didn't try my best with GODI
<pippijn> wmeyer: does opam have binary packages?
<wmeyer> i even tried odb, and it also worked (sometimes)
<wmeyer> pippijn: nope
<pippijn> then I don't want to use it
<pippijn> and essentially can't
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<pippijn> I have to install ocaml in this every time I build
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<pippijn> if I have to build ocaml and all dependencies from scratch each time, it will take too much time
<wmeyer> rks`_: the problem with gerd packages, is that he uses very cathedral approach to development. Otherwise they are all very high quality.
<rks`_> wmeyer: I was just teasing
<wmeyer> haha I know
<rks`_> no need to get into that here
<wmeyer> but i am honest
<rks`_> I know you are :)
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<pippijn> mrvn: should I first make a bug that asks for parmap to be put into debian?
<mrvn> pippijn: filing a RFP and including the url for the ppa is probably simplest
<wmeyer> I have to look at ocamlbuild, this week, but so far me git svn fails at the moment at ARM device. But I do have a plenty of stuff to do too apart from that :-)
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<dsheets> could someone help me with ocamlbuild + thread? http://pastebin.com/41it97r5
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<dsheets> the ocamlbuild invocation is $ ocamlbuild -use-ocamlfind -tag thread -lflags -dllib,-lsodium -pkgs ctypes.foreign,bigarray lib/sodium.cma
<mrvn> shouldn't there be a -pkgs thread?
<wmeyer> I thnk you have to use, use_thread
<wmeyer> rks`_: thanks :-)
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<dsheets> mrvn, -pkgs threads? it is the same... threads is required by this version of ctypes
<rks`_> wmeyer: btw, I don't remember if I answered you yesterday so : "oh great, thanks!" (about bin_annot)
<wmeyer> rks`_: haha :-)
<pippijn> mrvn: reportbug asks what package I want to report a bug about
<wmeyer> dsheets: actually "thread" is correct
<pippijn> should I say "other"?
<dsheets> wmeyer, -tag thread, you mean? why is it erroring?
<pippijn> ah, wnpp
<wmeyer> rks`_: it takes a bit of time though to know if this feature exists in ocamlbuild, maybe I should really think about improving the documentation
<wmeyer> because it links
<wmeyer> only
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<wmeyer> try to clean up the object files dsheets
<wmeyer> it's a linker problem, and you have to compile with -thread too.
<dsheets> yes... why is it generating a non-thread link command when it has the thread tag for this target?
<wmeyer> the best would be if ocamlbuild checked it, if the command is the same, and having a flag to not force rebuilding whole project if the command line chnged
<dsheets> i am using ocamlbuild for each component to be built without intermediate cleaning. is that so bad?
<wmeyer> I thought you just added it
<mrvn> wmeyer: overkill imho. how often do you change that line?
<wmeyer> so you have build something, and then linked with -thread
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<dsheets> wmeyer, i have http://pastebin.com/xZXHLxrt
<dsheets> well, i added threads in the PKGS at mrvn suggestion
<dsheets> but no change
<mrvn> dsheets: and the use_thread?
<dsheets> use_thread is to set the tag, no?
<dsheets> see FLAGS line
<dsheets> also, the tags in my original paste of _build/_log
<wmeyer> well, you have to use -tags "true: thread"
<gasche> 19:49 < wmeyer> rks`_: it takes a bit of time though to know if this feature exists in ocamlbuild, maybe I should really think about improving the documentation
<gasche> you mean that rks`_ should have done "ocamlbuild -documentation | grep annot"
<mrvn> In oasis you simply add "BuildDepends: thread"
<wmeyer> gasche: it's useful bot not documented!
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<wmeyer> oh maybe it is
<Drup> gasche: bin-annot is not (yet) in the stable ocamlbuild
<gasche> I have written a blog post about this
<gasche> Drup: fair point
<pippijn> mrvn: it should be an ITP, right?
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<wmeyer> gasche: it isn't? I thought it was added last year
<dsheets> i started with oasis but it seemed overkill and annoying to get it to do the $(CC) -shared -o $@ -lsodium bit
<mrvn> pippijn: No. That is when you want to maintain it.
<pippijn> oh
<dsheets> ocamlbuild -use-ocamlfind -tags "true: thread" -pkgs ctypes.foreign,bigarray lib/sodium.cmo
<dsheets> Lexical analysis error: Bad values in configuration line at line 1 (from string: "true: quiet, true:, thread")
<wmeyer> I have to fix my git svn first, to start doing ocamlbuild
<mrvn> pippijn: You want someone else to maintain it, so RFP (request for packaging) seems right to me. And CC the ocaml team on it.
<pippijn> I'm using reportbug
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<dsheets> same with _tags having true: thread
<mrvn> pippijn: that asks you if you want to Cc someones
<pippijn> ok
<pippijn> it didn't ask
<mrvn> Debian OCaml Maintainers <debian-ocaml-maint@lists.debian.org>
<wmeyer> hm dsheets you had a right syntax
<dsheets> perhaps the thread tag implementation doesn't work with .cma?
<mrvn> pippijn: maybe you have it configured to a to newbie-ish level
<pippijn> hm, probably
<wmeyer> it's best to use _tags dsheets
<pippijn> I don't know whether it sent anything, at all
<wmeyer> try to add in _tags proposed line
<dsheets> i did. it still doesn't work
<pippijn> Jul 25 20:00:28 oxdev postfix/error[2309]: 074358E03A5: to=<submit@bugs.debian.org>, relay=none, delay=0.42, delays=0.35/0.02/0/0.05, dsn=5.0.0, status=bounced (bugs.debian.org)
<pippijn> apparently not
<mrvn> In my _tags I have "<*.ml{,i}>: pkg_sdl". Doesn't that make everything build against sdl? That should only be for the GUI library.
<mrvn> pippijn: you might want to remove your mailserver from ~/.reportbug so it sends it directly.
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<pippijn> I put the debian smtp server
<wmeyer> dsheets: when you link with the .cma you add -thread?
<wmeyer> did you try to build a handwritten command?
<dsheets> i am using ocamlbuild
<dsheets> when i add -thread to -lflags, it works
<dsheets> that is good but also seems like a bug
<dsheets> i need it for cma, cmxa, and a
<wmeyer> hmmm, strange
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<wmeyer> if you feel it's a bug, then best what we can do is to fix it! please submit a bug on mantis if it looks like a bug, i will triage it
<wmeyer> I think I build applications with thread (batteries require it)
<dsheets> ok... it does seem unexpected to you? not something silly I'm missing?
<pippijn> I don't know whether it worked or not
<wmeyer> it looks all right; apart your command line is really complicated
<wmeyer> i rarely build libraries with -thread
<pippijn> oh, it worked
<wmeyer> so it's hard to tell
<pippijn> I don't think CC worked
<dsheets> i need it because the ctypes dependency on this branch uses it? i'm not entirely clear on why -thread is special vs another kind of interface/link?
<pippijn> oh, there is an X-Debbugs-Cc
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<wmeyer> so I'd need to look at the runtime system to know what -thread exactly does
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<Drup> (BatSeq, manly)
<Drup> (and ropes for the svg backend)
<pippijn> I wonder if js_of_ocaml has string length limits
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<Drup> js probably has
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* wmeyer is going to buy an FPGA
<pippijn> wmeyer: what are you going to code in it?
<wmeyer> pippijn: just for learning
<wmeyer> and I have quite few ideas
<pippijn> like what?
<wmeyer> custom hardware description language :-
<pippijn> you don't like system-c, verilog and vhdl?
<wmeyer> and apart from that I work at cores group and know so little about hardware at the moment
<wmeyer> no, i don't like them at all
<wmeyer> (means: system-c, verilog, or vhdl)
<wmeyer> but it's fun
<pippijn> I liked hardware programming
<wmeyer> to get the taste, such projects exist: http://caml.inria.fr/cgi-bin/hump.en.cgi?contrib=466
<pippijn> I didn't really like vhdl, but it was ok
<Drup> wmeyer: I had a project where we designed a high level synthesis tool with some DSL, it was fun :D
<Drup> (in M1)
<wmeyer> these languagaes are clumsy
<pippijn> wmeyer: implement an ocaml compiler accelerator in hardware :)
<wmeyer> that interprets lambda? possible and would be cool
<Drup> a spoc for FPGAs ! :D
<wmeyer> actually that's what my friend does pippijn (almost)
<Drup> (good luck with that x)
<wmeyer> Drup: thank you =)
<wmeyer> I found that hardware has some space for research, but computer science sadly, become a well explored area
<wmeyer> especially the compiler and programming languages space
<pippijn> wmeyer: heh?
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<Drup> wmeyer: indeed, that's start to be a well explored area, and by very very clever people
<wmeyer> well, the code generators are known since 60, look what the state of art is, we have fully verified compilers, we have fast code generators described by DSLs, we have programming languages like K to formalize computr languages etc.
<wmeyer> that makes me feel awkward
<wmeyer> and systems like Coq are just awesome, but to be honest I it goes to the edge, what can be a general purpose language
<wmeyer> (dependent types and proving in one)
<wmeyer> now, there is good bias going towards domain specific languages
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<wmeyer> Drup: I agree, and tend to say that this heaven for programmers will not last that long!
<Drup> wmeyer: the area is well explored from a research perspective, not from the practical point of view
<Drup> just look at the difference between state of the art GC and GC used in practice by "modern" (*gough*) programming languages
<wmeyer> Drup: seconded, but I am not interested in implementing 100% working system actually, i am more interested in describing idea and having a fun
<wmeyer> Drup: I can see this
<wmeyer> Drup: still somebody needs to write this C or C++ ;)
<Drup> wmeyer: oh yeah, it's probably the funniest part :D
<levi> There have been some research prototypes for low-level systems programming in safe languages, but they all tend to die after someone gets a Ph.D.
<wmeyer> levi: I hope someday we will get out of this engineering bagage, and implement second Linux in OCaml or Coq.
<Drup> levi: well, there is still ats
<Drup> wmeyer: linux in Coq ? I don't think it's reasonably possible :/
<wmeyer> but the lifecycle of programs is long: easy to change, cheap to store, and if works stays forever.
<wmeyer> Drup: you might think like this, but why actually not? Using verfied DSLs and code generators?
<wmeyer> Drup: ats is a DSL for system programming in fact
<levi> Many embedded systems vendors supply tools for doing code generation from formal specifications, typically in something nasty like SysML.
<wmeyer> levi: i quikcly checked, i read OMG and then resembled they designed CORBA and say thank you to myself
<levi> I imagine it works something like the code extraction feature of Coq, except that you end up with some sort of C/C++ code to implement a state machine.
<levi> Most practical systems right now use model checking rather than theorem proving, though.
<wmeyer> because there is abstraction leak from the actual hardware design constraints upwards the language it's defined in
<levi> I think it's mostly because you don't have to know how to write proofs to run a model checker.
<wmeyer> I see
<levi> It just explores the state space specified by your model and looks for counterexamples to your specified properties.
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