<seangrove>
Algebr`: Good point, should just be an http interface
<seangrove>
You build the unikernel in the terminal though, you probably want to do `push artifact && open in browser when ready`
<seangrove>
Cool, I like that idea, make drag + drop easy as well
<Algebr`>
browsers can do it, nice stress test + add it if not already in jsoo
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<struktured>
hooray to zarith. It works as a drop in replacement to Int64, at least for me. not a single function had to be renamed or modified. just removed open Int64, replaced with open Z
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<Algebr`>
was there something around that turned an opam file into a debian package?
<Algebr`>
okay wow, never saw this before: opam info oqamldebug
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<Algebr`>
bah, I got bumped not sure if anyone replied.
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<companion_cube>
opam publish seems to not understand the fields "install" and "tags"
<companion_cube>
this is strange
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<companion_cube>
now it works. wtf.
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<flux>
I guess no ocaml-related april fools jokes. we are one boring bunch of folks!
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<flux>
about that oqamldebug.. "here's this debugger for ocaml" "oh yeah and it has its own qt bindings as well" ?!
<hcarty>
pierpa: We already have opam using emoji. Adding them to the compiler seems like a logical step.
<companion_cube>
even to the compiler's boostrap
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<mrvn>
hcarty: so when you compile something for the 4th time and still get the same error the compile would add an angry emoji?
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<companion_cube>
that would actually be cool
<companion_cube>
"wake up!"
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<pierpa>
I was thinking more to the poop emoji in error messages
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<flux>
this brings me an awesome! idea
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<flux>
1) all compilations are submitted to teh cloud, alongside with the associated error messages
<flux>
2) error gets fixed by the developer and the new source code also is uploaded
<flux>
3) with machine learning learn how to go from broken code with error message X to working code without error message!
<flux>
4) ..
<flux>
5) profit!
<pierpa>
!
<freehck>
flux: point 3 could simply lead to commenting error strings. :)
<freehck>
it's so easy - just to comment defective source strings the compiler's blaming to.
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<flux>
well, if that's what developers usually do, then it would happen ;)
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<hcarty>
mrvn: I hadn't thought of that, but it seems like an excellent idea.
<zozozo>
does the compiler export its internal library for parsing/typing ocaml files ?
<Drup>
it's not the easiest thing to use, but yes
<Drup>
well, parsing is easy, typing, depends
<zozozo>
Drup: what are the relevant modules ?
<Drup>
For printing, Parse
<Drup>
parsing* bll ~~
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<mrvn>
zozozo: are you looking for ppx?
<zozozo>
not really, I have a friend who'd like to get some statistics about ocaml programs from what I understand, and so who would want to parse (and maybe type ?) ocaml source file
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<mrvn>
why not parse the mli/cmi files?
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<Maelan>
why those functions use “unit ptr” instead of “'a ptr”?
<companion_cube>
really, someone uses -warn-error and complains that his code is broken? -_-
<mrvn>
Maelan: because they are void and not any
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<malc_>
companion_cube: yeah?
<companion_cube>
well, retrocompat doesn't extend as far as warnings
<companion_cube>
it would be extremely bad, imho
<malc_>
companion_cube: deprecation without fallback is not very nice you know
<companion_cube>
well the functions are not going away before a long time
<companion_cube>
it's not as bad as -safe-string
<malc_>
safe string gave me much less troubles
<Drup>
malc_: having warn error on deprecation warning is asking for your code to break
<malc_>
Drup: so -3 is your suggestion?
<mrvn>
Maelan: I figure you aren't supposed to access the registered values through the pointer to the root.
<mrvn>
Maelan: only through get/set
<Drup>
malc_: No, my sugestion is not to *warnerror* on it
<Drup>
(especially in released packages)
<malc_>
Drup: i.e. -warn-error +a-3
<Drup>
not +a, that's wrong too, it will error on new warning
<malc_>
i'm fine with that
<mrvn>
Maelan: probably should be 'a Root.t instead of a generic ptr
<Drup>
malc_: then you are wrong, *shrug*
<malc_>
Drup: erm, please expand
<Maelan>
ok mrvn
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<Maelan>
what’s the rationale for that?
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<Drup>
malc_: your previous release should not stop building because new warnings are added in subsequent releases. That just terribly brittle and create incentive to not add new warnings
<Drup>
previous release *of your package*/ subsequent releases *of ocaml*
<Drup>
So, instead, limit yourself to current warning
<Drup>
-warn-error +1..50-3, for example
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<mrvn>
Maelan: for what?`
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<malc_>
Drup: and that's not brittle? i'm sorry but compiler writers are not terribly good at keeping the numbers the same (save for MSC)
<Drup>
What ? numbers are stable in OCaml ...
<Drup>
warnings are only added at the end on purpose
<Drup>
Did you even looked at how warning are specified ? u_u'
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<Maelan>
mrvn, for preventing to access the registered values through the pointer to the root?
<mrvn>
Maelan: if you pass it to a C function that changes the contents then you will randomly crash the GC.
<malc_>
Drup: 'Did you even looked at' == 'Have you seen'? No, I haven't.
<Maelan>
oh, local open syntax does not work at the type level
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<mrvn>
huh?
<mrvn>
type t = Foo.(t -> s)?
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<Maelan>
yes
<Maelan>
i get a syntax error
<mrvn>
indeed. file an issue
<Maelan>
you mean it is not normal?
<mrvn>
it sounds like a feature that should be there
<octachron>
it is normal, local open works only at the expression level for now
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<Algebr`>
The manifesto has caused some good discussion.
<toolslive>
it has been written from a web developer perspective though.
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<Algebr`>
some of it, I'm not a web developer though...
<Algebr`>
I wanted to add some stuff from the HN discussion, namely debugging lwt/profiling and apparently people have problems with syntax.
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<toolslive>
well, syntax is like spelling, as soon as you want to touch that, people will become hostile. (I'm Flemish, and we had spelling wars, so I know what I'm talking about)
<toolslive>
ultimately, syntax doesn't matter much. object.some_method versus object#some_method .....
<Algebr`>
post wasn't about things in the end but rather things that get in the way in the beginning
<Algebr`>
for some reason people get real confused about the `in` for each let, module syntax is heavy too
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<Drup>
the heavyness of module syntax is only sensible when you are doing fairly advenced things
<toolslive>
the let is weird to them because it's a concept they don't really have .... it's not an assignment it's an introduction of a name together with its scope
<Drup>
advanced*
<Algebr`>
also this comes up literally all the time: confusion about function, ie let foo = function h::t -> ...
<seangrove>
Yeah, function still causes me to pause when I see it
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<Drup>
Can you explain ?
<seangrove>
Silly, but just hasn't *quite* become muscle-memory yet (just a matter of time I'm sure)
<toolslive>
what hurts me is that I have servers in the field that die once in a blue moon due to a segv and the core is utterly useless. (it dies in GC way after the problem happened)
<Algebr`>
Drup: people don't understand that let foo thing = match thing with h::t -> is the same thing as let foo = function h::t -> ...
<Drup>
Ah, right
<Algebr`>
or rather get confused about it at first
<toolslive>
I don't know what the damn thing was doing at the time, and I don't know what's on the heap
<seangrove>
I'd love to see something similar to Clojure's let syntax: (let [x 10 y 20 z (+ x y)] body)
<Drup>
seangrove: I'm physically hurt by the lack of delimiters
<Algebr`>
toolslive: and if something is missing from the non web developers perspective then please feel free to add to it
<seangrove>
Drup: Yeah, line breaks make it a bit nicer ;)
<Drup>
seangrove: let and and and ..
<seangrove>
Drup: Bit delimiters could work too, just the repeated let .. in let ... in let ... in body
<toolslive>
I'm biased too: I couldn't give a rat's arse about windows
<Algebr`>
there was literally only two words about it.
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<toolslive>
anyway, I don't mind the syntax, I don't mind the editor (yes, I had to switch to emacs to get a decent ocaml env). But I do mind space leaks on bigarrays and I do mind programs crashing and me being unable to even find a strategy to attack the source of the problem
<Algebr`>
ah, i think you mentioned that on HN, I will add that as a section for advanced issues or something like that.
<toolslive>
yes. the toolslive there and the toolslive here are the same ;)
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<toolslive>
decent multi core remains an issue for what we do. If you see the hoops we jump through to push calculations to other cores... it's madness.
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<seangrove>
And yet the algebraic effects keep getting pushed off :(
<Drup>
seangrove: As someone working on the compiler said, "You don't want two new orthogonal compiler feature that can make your code segfault in the same release.
<seangrove>
Drup: Interesting take, make sense.
<seangrove>
What's the other one?
<Drup>
flambda
<Drup>
It's well tested and all that, but you can never be sure what people are going to torture the compiler with :D
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<seangrove>
Ok, makes sense
<seangrove>
Still, effect handlers open up some super exciting areas for me
<seangrove>
Looking forward to 4.04 I suppose :)
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<seangrove>
Sometime in 2017 hopefully?
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<Algebr`>
Drup: was the ppx rewrite of lwt example not wanted? I can close
<Drup>
Algebr`: there is another PR that rewrites all the examples and I didn't got time
<Algebr`>
ah, didn't see that, then I'll close
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<octachron>
I wonder if 4.04 will manage to have both algebraic effects and a short release cycle
<Drup>
That was not necessary, I would have closed it myself when the time come
<Algebr`>
Drup: ah, I'm neurotic about having stuff be just hanging.
<Drup>
octachron: So bold :D
<Algebr`>
how nicely does ocaml/opam play with docker?
<Algebr`>
I'd like to see an docker based work flow, is the container just expected to have the binary or built from source each time?
<octachron>
Drup, or a pick one of two situation
<seangrove>
Algebr`: The way I use it is to just treat the docker container as ephemeral
<seangrove>
You start with the ocaml/opam docker image, install the deps you want, and commit it for a new project
<Algebr`>
seangrove: did you intend to change everything to 1. 1. 1. 1. ?
<Algebr`>
ah
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<seangrove>
Algebr`: that was just me idly using markdown while I thought about what to write, feel free to close it and just copy/paste the paragraph itself.
<Algebr`>
nah, will accept and fix
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<yunxing>
Anyone with experience of Menhir? I'm thinking about to provide some wrapper functions on locations, but it looks like menhir doesn't allow me to put menhir keywords in ocaml header section
<Algebr`>
looks like docker is actually using all my cores.
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<toolslive>
Algebr: our CI infrastructure runs on top of docker. As long as you stay away from things like fuse, you're ok.
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<Algebr`>
I see, so general question: someone could make say a docker image with yojson or whatever already installed and you make a fork of it to add your logic?
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<seangrove>
Algebr`: Yup
<Algebr`>
uh, this doesn't seem right: ocaml/ocaml latest e7d2d583ab23 59 minutes ago 713.8 MB ubuntu latest 97434d46f197 13 days ago 188 MB
<Algebr`>
ocaml/ocaml is 713MB when ubuntu is 188MB
<toolslive>
as you see. it's rather straight forward
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<Algebr`>
awesome! I wish you could github star single files, or like make a pref list of single files
<Algebr`>
toolslive: why aren't you using the ocaml dockerfile lib?
<toolslive>
what ocaml dockerfile lib ?
<Algebr`>
opam info dockerfile
<toolslive>
ah. because I don't need dynamically constructed docker files. I need repeatable builds.
<Algebr`>
ah
<toolslive>
the things that are dynamic are passed in via environment variables, so there's no need to constantly change the docker file
<toolslive>
see the last lines (~140). The test suite to run is in ${SUITE}
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<seangrove>
How do I get `ocamlfind ocamlc` to output *.cm* files to a directory?
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<seangrove>
e.g. `ocamlfind ocamlc -o _client/client.byte client.ml` creates the final _client/client.byte, but it also creates client.cmi/cmo in the current dir
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<hcarty>
seangrove: I don't know if there currently is a way to do that
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<seangrove>
hcarty: hrm, that seems a bit bizarre. I have a few build targets, and I'd like for them not to clash. Right now ocamlbuild complains because of the top level cm* files, and then creates a _build/sanitize.sh script
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<hcarty>
seangrove: Something like a/m.ml and b/m.ml?
<seangrove>
hcarty: Just manually added a list of files to rm in the make target... not thrilled about it, but whatever for now.
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<Algebr>
I wonder if clang-format could made to work with OCaml?
<Algebr>
err, nvm, dumb idea
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<Algebr>
Will modular implicits have any practical affect on the ad-hoc comparators? >, <, etc
<Algebr>
C++ guy grilled me on that
<Algebr>
at a meetup
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<octachron>
Algebr, good. It might become pratical to just deprecate them
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<Algebr>
I think its kind of a wart.
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<octachron>
A wart that can raise exceptions
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<malc_>
octachron: and how would you handle custom comparators?
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<Algebr>
make that makes it a boil
<Algebr>
maybe*
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<octachron>
malc_, with modular implict? "let (<): {M:Ord} -> M.t -> M.t -> bool" and the user could modify the implicit module in the context to choose the right one?
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<malc_>
octachron: I meant C side
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<octachron>
malc_, I imagine by calling back the ocaml comparator function?
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<malc_>
octachron: i.e. every piece of code using custom_ops would have to be adjusted, somehow i doubt that's going to fly
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<octachron>
malc_, good point. At the same time, replacing < (or any part of the std libs) with modular implicits is already a colossal undertaking on the ocaml side
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<libbro>
Hello you all!
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<Algebr>
hello
<malc_>
octachron: yeah, i have this feeling that this undertaking will unearth lots of "interesting" things
<malc_>
anyhow...
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<seangrove>
Drup aantron: Just want to say \o/~yay~ for #89!
<aantron>
:)
<aantron>
its still a work in progress.. but close to done
<Drup>
Yep, progress is being made :D
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<seangrove>
Someday I'll get you two on board to provide a JSX-like module on top of it ;)
<Drup>
You would have to explain me what it is exactly :D
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<Drup>
Because it looked like it was pretty much "html/xml inside javascript code that builds up a datastructure"
<Algebr>
its html that desugars into function calls
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<Drup>
If I understand correctly, the main difference with tyxml's ppx is that it accepts non-html elements
<Drup>
right ?
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<Drup>
Actually, seangrove & Algebr: Just open an issue with a description/the right references.
<aantron>
and seangrove, if you have some design in mind, like if a whitelist or way to choose a custom module in tyxml, would allow to build some JSX-like module on top of tyxml, include such options in the issue
<aantron>
or if just an option "-lax" or something would be sufficient, etc
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<seangrove>
Drup aantron: I have ambition, but no specific plan. Just very impressed withh everything you've done thus far.
<seangrove>
When the time comes and I have something more specific in terms of examples, an possibly implementation, then I'll solicit you ;)
<Drup>
Still, open the issue
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<seangrove>
Drup: By the way, I'll be out in Croatia for a month from Monday, and then bouncing around Paris/Berlin/London, if you're up to meet in person
<Drup>
Depends on the time, I'm not in paris next week
<seangrove>
I won't be in Paris until May anyway
<seangrove>
But I'd love to harass you a bit after April ;)
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<Drup>
So, the only thing written on my calendar in may is "Stellaris", but it's probably going to be a full time activity x)
<Drup>
Just kidding, sure :)
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<Algebr>
Drup: okay, will try to create a good implementatable description of the problem and output desires.