01:03 <stacksmith> Is anyone around?

01:05 <stacksmith> Regenaxer: I built the aarch64 pil and it appears to work. I am not sure how to run the tests

01:08 <stacksmith> I'll have to dig in tomorrow. But it starts up cleanly, at least.

06:27 <Regenaxer> stacksmith: Great, thanks! Good news so far

06:28 <Regenaxer> You could run the unit tests with: $ ./pil lib/test.l -bye +

06:28 <Regenaxer> It should just print "OK"

06:38 <stacksmith> Regenaxer: Yes - test.l reports "OK".

06:39 <Regenaxer> Cool!

06:40 <Regenaxer> So most things should be OK

06:40 <stacksmith> Thanks for the quick fix.

06:40 <Regenaxer> I expected that, as the arm64 port I'm using a long time already on Android

06:40 <Regenaxer> just the Linux-Differences

07:41 <haha_> "PicoLisp has an elegant, unobtrusive, totally optional object system". But then you can find: "This object architecture is used throughout the whole system, including the DB and GUI. And prefix classes are an essential part of it..". So are objects just there for a small part of people who want it or will I have to use them because they are everywhere?

07:42 <Regenaxer> This is completely up to you, I would say

07:44 <aw-> hi all

07:44 <Regenaxer> Hi aw-

07:44 <aw-> haha_: used "everywhere" = only in DB and GUI

07:45 <aw-> haha_: i never use objects

07:45 <haha_> oh so it's just a bit misleading.

07:45 <haha_> i see

07:45 <haha_> thanks!

07:45 <aw-> yes misleading text, where did you read that?

07:45 <haha_> http://picolisp.com/wiki/?unifyinglanguage

07:45 <haha_> and in one of the books

07:46 <Regenaxer> yeah, "used throughout the system" is misleading

07:46 <Regenaxer> "the application framework" is more correct

07:46 <Regenaxer> unifying language was about DB and GUI

07:47 <beneroth> hi all

07:47 <beneroth> hi haha_

07:47 <aw-> right right

07:47 <aw-> hey beneroth and Regenaxer, rare to see you guys here on the weekend

07:47 <Regenaxer> Hi beneroth

07:48 <Regenaxer> yeah :)

07:48 <beneroth> hi Regenaxer

07:48 <Regenaxer> Today it is so stormy

07:48 <beneroth> aw-, gf is away and I have a ton of work xD

07:48 <beneroth> yeah rainy here

07:48 <Regenaxer> Even the trains stopped in Germany

07:48 <beneroth> lol

07:49 <aw-> here too

07:49 <Regenaxer> (some lines I hear)

07:49 <aw-> Typhoon arriving in a couple hours

07:49 <beneroth> uh

07:49 <Regenaxer> yeah, heard about it

07:49 <Regenaxer> My wife's brother is in Okinawa, there it was a few days ago already

07:50 <beneroth> haha_, the object system is completely optional unless you want to use the pil DB. you can fully stay in functional land or whatever land you prefer.

07:50 <aw-> oh yes it rolled right over Okinawa

07:50 <haha_> thank you all

07:50 <beneroth> haha_, but it is to say, picolisps OOP mechanic is very elegant and reasonable.

07:51 <beneroth> multiple inheritance is solved in a very meaningful way -> inheritance is ordered

07:51 <beneroth> classes and objects are technically the same thing

07:53 <beneroth> Alan Kay said "I'm sorry that I long ago coined the term "objects" for this topic because it gets many people to focus on the lesser idea. The big idea is "messaging""

07:53 <beneroth> I would say the picolisp OOP is all about messaging.

07:54 <beneroth> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/1998-October/017019.html

07:57 <Regenaxer> true, pil keeps with the concept of objects sending messages to each other

07:58 <Regenaxer> this got lost in C++ or Java, they just talk about methods, thinking about wem as a kind of privat functions only

07:58 <beneroth> yeah

07:58 <Regenaxer> a very static concept

07:58 <haha_> i started programming with java, so OOP was the only way i could think in. it took a lot of time until i realised that it's not the only way to program. that i could just use functions without coupling them to data. now i don't really see why i would need it and i'm very wary of it.

07:58 <beneroth> all curry

07:59 <haha_> i should look into it more

07:59 <beneroth> haha_, well centralising all functions which work with specific data together is sometimes useful. sometimes not.

08:00 <beneroth> haha_, what picolisp OOP is not: strong encapsulation in the sense of access limitations. picolisp is all about transparency and full access, and so everything can inspect and change everything.

08:00 <beneroth> that is a big difference to Java et al OOP.

08:00 <haha_> i agree that sometimes it could be useful. i'm not against it. i just don't want to be forced to use it

08:00 <beneroth> and I think it is meaningful in some way to have those strong access limits, because it is meant for programmers who can't handle freedom

08:01 <beneroth> yeah the java "everything is an object and OOP except that it isn't" is stupid and annoying :)

08:02 <Regenaxer> I use classes and objects only when things are not clear initially how far they will be extended in the future

08:03 <Regenaxer> A strict, well-defined algorithm does not need classes

08:03 <beneroth> T

08:10 <haha_> that's very helpful

08:11 <haha_> thanks again

12:01 <aw-> hmmm

12:01 <aw-> seems the typhoon is right over me now, but no wind or rain

12:02 <Regenaxer> the eye

12:07 <aw-> no it passed

12:07 <aw-> well.. very different from last week

12:08 <beneroth> last week was bad I heard

12:08 <aw-> yeah

12:10 <aw-> it hit me straight on, ripped through some seawalls a couple km from here

12:10 <beneroth> wow. how did this turn out?

12:11 <aw-> today? barely even noticed the wind..

12:11 <aw-> last week it was strong enough to wake me up

12:11 <beneroth> damage? (last week I mean)

12:12 <aw-> oh, well you know.. it's not the first time we get typhoons ;)

12:12 <aw-> in a couple days most of the ocean debris was cleaned up

16:45 <tankfeeder> haha_: from lietuva? :)

16:47 <haha_> tankfeeder: yes

16:47 <tankfeeder> I’m from Riga

17:13 <haha_> cool