<aw->
you can "spoof" a signature by simply including "\n[GNUPG:] GOODSIG ..." in the message you're signing! and the parser will believe that it's a 'good' signature! Hahahaha
<Regenaxer>
oh
<aw->
hi Regenaxer
<Regenaxer>
Hi aw-!
<yunfan>
aw-: maybe intentioned :D
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<beneroth>
aw-, bwahaha nice
<mtsd>
Good morning!
<Regenaxer>
Good morning beneroth, mtsd!
<beneroth>
Good morning mtsd, Regenaxer !
<mtsd>
:)
<beneroth>
this Intel bug drama makes me like OpenBSD more and more
<beneroth>
now they accused of leaking the bug, when they weren't part of the embargoed group who knew it but figured it out themselves
<tankf33der>
openbsd is nothing special
<tankf33der>
slower and slower.
<beneroth>
because being suboptimal, or because of additional security checks everywhere?
<beneroth>
problem is not enough people looking at the code. Linux is probably more secure in general-
<beneroth>
but I like the OpenBSD spirit
<mtsd>
I have been considering OpenBSD as well, but I feel the same about number of people looking at the code
<mtsd>
A chicken and egg problem, in a way
<beneroth>
yeah
<beneroth>
not just code viewing, even just a larger more diverse user base gives you more bug reports and battle testing
<beneroth>
bad security bugs found in all three big BSDs
<beneroth>
least found in OpenBSD, best reaction time
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<aw->
hi all
<aw->
beneroth: shouldn't you be favouring a diff arch instead of different OS? ex: ARM > Intel
<aw->
i don't see how openbsd will suddenly make Intel cpu issues acceptable
<beneroth>
my work PC is AMD for... 4-5 years now :)
<beneroth>
T
<beneroth>
OS security is workaround. hardware must be secure.
<aw->
well.. considering Intel are based off the AMD spec, i can't see the difference
<beneroth>
but yeah.. I haven't found one data center offering non-intel yet... leaves me with building my own hardware and renting rackspace? I don't really want to do that...
<beneroth>
well Meltdown and this FPU leak bug is a difference, no?
<beneroth>
what would you recommend? raspi 64bit?
<beneroth>
(for servers)
<aw->
yeah that's because ARM 64-bit is still relatively "new".. i'm not aware of datacenter-level arm CPUs
<beneroth>
yeah probably
<aw->
i don't recommend raspi, no
<beneroth>
I'm looking forward to servers with arm for quite a time now. its in "coming soon" state for like 1-2 years now, afaik...
<aw->
we need open source CPUs
<beneroth>
all server hostings (both VPS and dedicated) are all running with Intel CPU. Why? is this Intel ME such a useful tool for that environment, or why is it not more mixed? (I can understand one company wants to stick with one hardware setup..but...)
<beneroth>
yeah.. is there even a chance for that? that industry has some high barriers of entry, no?
<aw->
beneroth: i worked at hosting companies for ~7 years, before IntelME.. amd64 CPUs problem was always cooling.. they get too hot
<beneroth>
ah, interesting
<aw->
so when you have 20,000 cpus in a datacenter, the last thing you want is more heat
<beneroth>
T
<beneroth>
didn't know about AMDs problems
<aw->
there's also the choice... if you look at board manufacturers like Tyan, Supermicro, etc.. their hardware support for Intel is 10x higher
<beneroth>
network effects and scaling effects :/
<aw->
and the amount of options for each Intel CPU (xeons, etc) are so high, so for someone whose job is to spec hardware for the next 2-3 years, more options = better
<aw->
i think some companies like OVH get away with much lower hosting costs by having "creative" use of racks and cheap hardware.. so i wouldn't be surprised to see AMD in the OVH servers
<aw->
the future needs open source CPUs
<aw->
RISC-V, but Regenaxer doesn't like it ;)
<mtsd>
Chuck Moore, inventor of Forth, is into chip design these days. Well, since quite a number of days :)
<mtsd>
Yes, I think it is an interesting approach. His inventions usually are
<mtsd>
Nice thing to be doing when you are aged somewhere around 80. Designing cpus
<beneroth>
awesome
<beneroth>
aha. so the plan is to get Regenaxer into hardware? :P
<beneroth>
though first we need some more people getting fluent in pil ASM. :)
<aw->
beneroth: i'm getting there
<aw->
i wrote a Hello World in pil ASM
<mtsd>
I started reading the docs on structures and ASM lately. It will be a challenge for me, but it is a direction in which I would like to go
<aw->
but it doesn't work
<beneroth>
I want to get into it eventually, too. But yeah, you will grok it first. :)
<aw->
mtsd: have you read "The Elements of Computing Systems" ?
<beneroth>
agh
<beneroth>
whats that? processor concepts?
<mtsd>
aw- , no I haven't
<aw->
it's accompanied by an optional course, available on Coursera
<aw->
beneroth: yes
<mtsd>
Sounds good, I will have a look
<aw->
really great book to get started with building a CPU from scratch
<aw->
asm, all that stuff
<mtsd>
Great!
<aw->
amazing book, amazing Coursera course as well - easily one of the highest quality online course you can find on there
<mtsd>
Like you, I have been building pil apps for some time. But I would like to know what is really going on, to gain a deeper understanding of Pil
<beneroth>
thanks for the tip, aw- !
<aw->
yes, totally get that book you will love it
<mtsd>
Written by Noam Nisan?
<aw->
mtsd: yes and Shimon Shocken
<aw->
you can watch their course videos for free as well
<mtsd>
Found it. It is not even very expensive. Nice!
<mtsd>
325 pages. I had expected a tome of immense thickness, haha
<aw->
yeah most books focus on too many non-important details
<aw->
this one is very focused: build a CPU from scratch
<aw->
and it's literally "from scratch",... logic gates (and/or/not/nand) -> all the way to writing your own compiler and programming language which can run on that CPU
<mtsd>
I am looking at the preview on amazon now. Seems very good, I am probably going to order the book
<aw->
i find this kind of stuff requires some kind of interactiveness.. with a "project" at the end of each chapter, it forces you to validate and confirm what you read
<mtsd>
I have been looking for something like this for some time
<aw->
mtsd: awesome! start with Chapter 1, then hit up Coursera for the videos and additional material
<mtsd>
We are lucky in this community, since we have Regenaxer. It is possible for us to experiment, try things out and ask questions
<mtsd>
We have the opportinuty to learn pil ASM well, really
<aw->
indeed
<aw->
I can recommend another book on this subject, but it's much bigger, much heavier, and more of a "here's everything you need to know about computer architecture"
<aw->
it's almost mostly aimed at people who want to program FPGAs
<mtsd>
It is down to us to put in the work, I think. It is a lot of work, but very rewarding
<aw->
lots of math, and formulas, etc.. but also a great book IMO: Digital Design and Computer Architecture - Harris & Harris
<aw->
mtsd: indeed, the work is worth the effort
<aw->
err.. the effort is worth it?
<mtsd>
Wow. I just received an e-mail. A company here wants me to come and demonstrate Picolisp after the summer.
<mtsd>
Amazing. And scary.
<beneroth>
wohoo. congrats!
<beneroth>
how did they hear about you?
<mtsd>
Well, I met them for an interview some time ago. They have offered me a job, so I took the chance to ask if they wanted to know more about Pil
<Regenaxer>
mtsd: Cool!
<mtsd>
IT consultants, they have a number of clients. I thought it a good opportunity to see if I can spread the language a bit ;)
<Regenaxer>
:)
<mtsd>
I better construct a demo that displays all the fantastic features of Pil
<mtsd>
Regenaxer, I am probably going to ask you some questions in preparation for this
<Regenaxer>
Sure!
<mtsd>
Thanks!
<mtsd>
It would be fantastic if this actually turns into some real opportunities
<Regenaxer>
indeed
<mtsd>
Promise to try and send some work your way in that case, Regenaxer
<Regenaxer>
Thanks!! :)
<mtsd>
I'm the one who should say thanks, really. Thanks for creating Pil and for all help getting started.
<Regenaxer>
:)
<mtsd>
This is easily the productive, and most fun, way to write programs I have ever encountered :)
<mtsd>
Brings smiles to my face every day
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<beneroth>
T
<beneroth>
:)
<Regenaxer>
mtsd, do you have any idea what their interests are, what they need?
<Regenaxer>
Easiest would be to pick and perhaps modify an existing demo
<mtsd>
I think I will show them the project I am working on now. It is a program used by various office functions here.
<mtsd>
It includes many aspects of Pil application development.
<Regenaxer>
ok, perfect
<mtsd>
One thing to point out is how fast you can get features out using Pil. And how easy it is to host, backup and handle
<Regenaxer>
T
<mtsd>
Inexpensive Linux hosting takes you a long way here. No need to handle webserver configurations, database setups etc etc
<mtsd>
Lower costs and quicker turnaround
<Regenaxer>
right
<mtsd>
Good for the clients, I would say
<mtsd>
And, if projects can be finished quickly, a new client can be taken on. Good for consultants :)
<Regenaxer>
:)
<mtsd>
Their clients are mostly non-technical companies. That means the users probably do not care that much about technology choices, as long as it does what is needed
<Regenaxer>
That's best
<mtsd>
Yes, I think so too
<mtsd>
They seem interested in having me work for them already. Using my favourite language would make me a lot more productive, of course ;)
<beneroth>
a list of products/projects (to show the range of uses, and industry usage) would probably be good (does not need to reveal company names or such, I guess)
<mtsd>
Yes, true
<beneroth>
and business-wise I see the biggest advantages in productivity and maintainability
<mtsd>
I can only compare my experiences using Python/ Django, Java and Pil
<mtsd>
Pil wins on all accounts, hands down
<mtsd>
Productivity and maintanability is unmatched
<Regenaxer>
Glad to hear that :)
<beneroth>
disadvantage is required dev skill (but well, you want good devs, no?)
<mtsd>
T
<mtsd>
I hear the arguments "dev skill required" and "How to find people who knows this?" from time to time
<beneroth>
and less "ready to use" "off-the-shelf" libraries... but well, this forces one to develop good solutions instead of just glueing some subpar dependency hell together
<mtsd>
But you do want good devs, right? And us Pil users have made a choice we like. Very much
<mtsd>
As for "how to find people who knows this"...
<Regenaxer>
Yes, but finding good people is indeed difficult
<beneroth>
well don't search people who already know it. search people you who you can educate into it and educate into your business needs. if all you do is public widespread knowledge, then you do nothing special and you don't have any edge over competition, no?
<beneroth>
buzzword CV filtering is bullshit
<beneroth>
a good IT guy can be taught into anything within 2 months, I say
<mtsd>
You can choose a common technology today and build something. Then use what you have built for a while, only to find out that the IT industry moved on and your technology choice is now considered obsolote or un-fashionable
<beneroth>
most people are bad, granted :(
<mtsd>
And you are still stuck finding people to work with it
<mtsd>
Happened at my office, several times
<beneroth>
for some parts of IT personal it is an company attraction feature if they can learn "fashionable" stacks there (for their next job hop)
<mtsd>
Exaclty, beneroth!
<mtsd>
*Exactly*
<mtsd>
These people leave a trace of projects behind that hardly anyone wants to touch anymore
<mtsd>
Whereas someone working in what is considered a "fringe" technology might know this tech much better and be a lot more interested in working with it long term
<mtsd>
More productive, less likely to jump ship as soon as something new and fashionable comes along
<mtsd>
Just my thoughts on the subject :)
<beneroth>
a accounting SaaS I know manage to not find a php programmer with more than just a bit website-fiddling skill to maintain their backend. now the plan is to outsource it. I just wonder about the idea of outsourcing a accounting logic backend...
<beneroth>
T
<mtsd>
I never want to leave Pil. Really.
<mtsd>
Why would I do that? :)
<beneroth>
I would categorize programmers by knowledge of programming paradigms (OOP, functional, ...). maybe rough work-field (databases, network protocols, ...) and experience (range and depth of work/study of DIFFERENT areas)
<beneroth>
categorizing programmers by one technology or language is too shallow
<beneroth>
in the end its all just making zeros and ones appear in the right order :P
<beneroth>
tech knowledge is rather easy. industry-specific knowledge is hard. not much logic and not much you can re-use from one field in another.
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, seen the tooltip? :D
<beneroth>
"This is how I explain computer problems to my cat. My cat usually seems happier than me."
<Regenaxer>
no, which one?
<Regenaxer>
on xkcd?
<beneroth>
xkcd 722
<beneroth>
aye
<beneroth>
you probably don't get them displayed in your browser :P
<Regenaxer>
hmm, no tooltips on my touch screen ;)
<beneroth>
usually the tooltip is another joke
<Regenaxer>
didn't know
<Regenaxer>
Ah, a long press shows it!
<Regenaxer>
cool!
<Regenaxer>
Long press on the image
<beneroth>
I believe most company are horrible bad at hiring. but I have yet to search for an hire myself to get any real data on this :)
<Nistur>
mornin'
<Nistur>
... just about... it's still 11:30 here
<beneroth>
pretty early for a dev :P
<beneroth>
12:30 here
<Regenaxer>
Hi Nistur
<Nistur>
o7
<Nistur>
Regenaxer: random question... have you seen 'Blot'? a zero interface blogging platform? Unfortunately (heh) written in Node.js :P https://blot.im/ I was thinking, suuuuuuuuuuurely that's not a difficult thing... and should be possible in pil quite easily, right? Even if it 'only' supports markdown and plaintext, you already have support for that, right?
<Regenaxer>
No, never heard of
<Nistur>
basically, it just displays files as posts and pages
<Regenaxer>
We *do* have a Wiki written in Pil, picolisp.com
<Nistur>
yup
<Nistur>
I know that :P
<Regenaxer>
ok
<Regenaxer>
So why bother?
<Nistur>
I was just wondering how difficult it'd be to basically recreate blot :P
<beneroth>
just do it
<Regenaxer>
no idea ... you could try :)
<Nistur>
hehe :P I have a few uses for websites at the moment, and I don't want to install wordpress again, so I might do that :P
<Nistur>
when I saw blot, I was considering that, but then I figured that pil might be nicer than node.js ;)
<Regenaxer>
Which purpose do you intend?
<Nistur>
basically, a blog is what I want/need. Updates for news type things, and some static pages. I'm most certainly not a blogger, but a blog does have the necessary functionality
<Regenaxer>
Can't you simply use the pil wiki?
<Regenaxer>
Some other people did already
<Nistur>
yeah, I might do, I'll take a look :)
<Regenaxer>
Mansur Mamkin and Vidyuth Kini
<Nistur>
:) I think it'd be nice to get a blogging platform in pil, because whereas it _can_ be done in a wiki system, but it's generally easier using a blog for things that have chronological updates, and a wiki pages
<Nistur>
but for now, I'll play around with the wiki and see where I get to
<Regenaxer>
ok
<beneroth>
why not static pages?
<beneroth>
(I don't expect static pages to be an answer, but this is a question to find out what you really need)
<Nistur>
what I Want to use it for is mostly having chronological updates, so if I push in a new article, it shows an exerpt (the intro usually) on a list page, newest first, and then when you click on it, the article is displayed. I _can_ do that manually with a static system or a wiki, but it's more effort to manage, whereas if I use a blog, I just create a new post and it takes care of it automagically
<beneroth>
sounds like a simple task using pilDB and Regenaxer webframework form.l or cyborgars (easier, but much less features) web.l
* Nistur
needs to point one of his domains at that
<aw->
Nistur: if you want a pil static blog generator, i can give you the code for my personal blog
<aw->
it's pretty much exactly the same thing as that "Blot" thing, except not NodeJS, and doesn't require Dropbox
<aw->
oh ssorry, no it's not the same.. mine requires you write the posts in Markdown, and then run a command to generate the HTML
<aw->
you can probably write on yourself in a few hours.. that's how long it took me haha
<Nistur>
aw-: might still be interesting to see :) I think it might be worth making something like blot anyway at some point (if I get the time I may look into it, but I'm still trying to find time to work on my _other_ pil project) that will parse and render markdown like that
<beneroth>
just add a "submit" button and a pil webserver running the command = cms finished
<beneroth>
@aw-
<Nistur>
the point was, I wanted a site, with blog-like features, and I didn't want something as heavy as WP, and I don't REALLY have time to get sucked down into another rabbit hole :P
<aw->
Nistur: apt-get install markdown
<aw->
err sorry: apt-get install discount
<aw->
converts Markdown to HTML.. so you just need to wrap the output with your page title/footer, and then you have a full html page
<Nistur>
aw-: pacman -S discount
<Nistur>
;)
<aw->
but yes I agree, it's a rabbit hole
<beneroth>
well sometimes it's good to follow the white rabbit
<Nistur>
beneroth: I have so many rabbits, I could open up a sex shop
<Nistur>
what I'm trying to do right now is pick which rabbits are worth fattening up for the pot, and which I can ignore (for now)
<Nistur>
(yay, mixing metaphors!)
<beneroth>
:D
<beneroth>
omglol, USA starts trade war against china (tariffs on $50 billion in Chinese imports)
<beneroth>
maybe USA could pressure EU into banning Windows? *dreaming*
<Regenaxer>
:)
<beneroth>
we could get subsidies to further develop pilOS :P