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<beneroth> Regenaxer, if I see correctly, src64/ht.l was not updated to handle 4 byte UTF-8 (e.g. in ht:Prin)
<beneroth> # 18dec18abu
<beneroth> oh, htFmtE does handle the fourth byte
<beneroth> argh
<beneroth> Regenaxer, nevermind, I cannot read
<beneroth> Regenaxer, pil version of ht:Prin is extremely faster in my use case, should never have done this evil ht:Prin pipe lol!
<beneroth> ht lib should really only used when directly printing to stream....
* beneroth knows now...
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<Regenaxer> beneroth, you mean using 'replace', right? Good to know
<Regenaxer> Also, my proposal yesterday was rather stupid
<Regenaxer> (pipe (exec "picolisp" "-loop (
<Regenaxer> This is nonsense, as 'pipe' does already fork a picolisp process
<Regenaxer> So something like (pipe (loop ... would be better (if using a pipe at all)
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<beneroth> Regenaxer, no, using make, iterating over the string
<beneroth> I think 'replace was once only replacing the first occurrence, might that be? at least I thought so, once. Does the current one check for all replacements (additional arguments) in one go, or using multiple iterations?
<beneroth> hm.. probably 'replace would be better than make for chop...
<Regenaxer> 'replace' takes an arbitrary number of argument pairs
<Regenaxer> In my example I used 2
<Regenaxer> "<" and ">" iirc
<Regenaxer> make is also fine, and more flexible
<Regenaxer> only if speed is extremely critical, 'replace' as a single function call would be faster
<beneroth> ok.
<beneroth> ah yes, for removing characters make is handier, replace would need a second filter call
<beneroth> or is (replace "^K" NIL) okay?
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<beneroth> it is :)
<beneroth> : (pack (replace (chop "Andreas") "r"))
<beneroth> -> "Andeas"
<nullnullnull> how to eval script with picolisp? (and exit debugger, non-interactive)
<beneroth> hi nullnullnull
<beneroth> picolisp source files are read and evaluated with (load) and (script)
<nullnullnull> hi mate
<nullnullnull> but I tried with --eval and --load
<nullnullnull> sec let me check again
<beneroth> show me your entire invocation/cli command, and the source file (if its bigger, put it on pastebin or so)
<Regenaxer> replace needs no second filter
<Regenaxer> you can pass "" or NIL
<beneroth> Regenaxer, yes, I find out
<beneroth> *found
<beneroth> :)
<Regenaxer> ah, yes, sorry
<beneroth> everything is fine
<Regenaxer> Hi nullnullnull
<nullnullnull> hi mate
<Regenaxer> :)
<nullnullnull> here's my command line: picolisp -eval myfile.pico
<beneroth> Regenaxer, what do you use for string replacements, meaning replacing entire substrings, repeatedly? I'm currently using (while (match) ...) for this. not the most optimized solution probably, but alright.
<nullnullnull> it enters the interactive-mode
<Regenaxer> nullnullnull, does this help?
<beneroth> nullnullnull, you can just do "picolisp myfile.pico"
<beneroth> Regenaxer, good link
<Regenaxer> beneroth, yes, usually 'match'
<nullnullnull> sec
<beneroth> nullnullnull, explicitly calling 'eval is rather rarely needed in picolisp, only really in generic programming
<nullnullnull> yeah but I wanted to do some automations , like running many scripts at once
<nullnullnull> I wanted to exit the interactive mode when the file is loaded so I can continue running my script
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<Regenaxer> nullnullnull, you want to stop the script, get a REPL, then continue?
<beneroth> running in background in bash, the common way: pil myfile.pico &
<nullnullnull> when I run the picolisp myfile.pico it enters the interactive mode like this "> "
<beneroth> yeah then it has reached its end
<nullnullnull> hmm
<beneroth> put an (bye) on the last line of your script to finish the program, exiting the process
<nullnullnull> oh
<Regenaxer> "> " is the prompt if you call (in NIL (load))
<Regenaxer> <enter> then continues
<beneroth> nullnullnull, also you probably should use "pil <your-script.l>" instead of picolisp
<nullnullnull> sec let me try adding "bye"
<beneroth> picolisp is the picolisp runtime binary
<Regenaxer> I always use hashbang
<nullnullnull> pil? ok sec
<beneroth> pil is a bash script loading some additional "standard" libraries
<Regenaxer> #!/usr/bin/pil
<nullnullnull> ah good to know ;) sec I will try it
<Regenaxer> #!/usr/bin/pil arg
<Regenaxer> #!/usr/bin/pil -load "arg1" "arg2" ...
<Regenaxer> (trick to pass multiple args to hash-bang)
<beneroth> put this #! at beginning of your script, make the file executable with chmod u+x, then you can execute it directly
<Regenaxer> right
<beneroth> e.g. ./your-script.pico
<beneroth> nullnullnull, sorry if we tell you things you already know well :) what is your background?
<nullnullnull> no no i'm new to lisp :P
<beneroth> yeah, but what about linux? :D
<nullnullnull> good with linux
<nullnullnull> btw the (bye) worked!
<beneroth> good :)
<nullnullnull> thanks guys ;)
<Regenaxer> :)
<beneroth> yeah picolisp programs don't exit automatically, when they have nothing to do they go into the read-eval-print-LOOP and wait for input :)
<nullnullnull> if i wanna exit with failure i need to add param to bye right?
<beneroth> you're welcome :)
<beneroth> aye
<nullnullnull> nice :D
<Regenaxer> yes
<beneroth> btw. its handy to run a pil + window
<beneroth> then you can try out things
<beneroth> and
<Regenaxer> btw, there are also some scripts in the distro
<Regenaxer> in bin/
<beneroth> lookup the reference using (help 'sym), e.g. (help 'bye)
<beneroth> or (doc 'bye)
<nullnullnull> like this? pil (help 'bye)
<nullnullnull> I will look in bin/ folder sec
<Regenaxer> yes, you start
<Regenaxer> $ pil +
<Regenaxer> :
<Regenaxer> then
<Regenaxer> : (help 'bye)
<Regenaxer> or
<nullnullnull> ah inside the interactive mode
<Regenaxer> : (doc 'bye) # starts a browser
<Regenaxer> yeah
<Regenaxer> 'doc' defaults to the w3m text browser
<Regenaxer> but you can change it
<nullnullnull> so the picolisp is a bit different than the commonlisp right?
<Regenaxer> eg : (doc 'bye "firefox")
<Regenaxer> yes, a lot different
<nullnullnull> gonna check the docs how to set maxtimeout with sockets there ;)
<Regenaxer> (doc 'listen)
<nullnullnull> : doc 'listen
<nullnullnull> -> listen
<Regenaxer> The parens are missing ;)
<nullnullnull> oh
<Regenaxer> 'doc' is a function ;)
<nullnullnull> w3m: Can't exec
<Regenaxer> I see, not installed
<Regenaxer> I'd recommend to do sudo apt install w3m
<nullnullnull> ah by default not installed any module right?
<Regenaxer> or set your BROWSER environment variable
<Regenaxer> w3m is not part of picolisp
<nullnullnull> but w3m is the only module for sockets?
<Regenaxer> No, it is a text browser
<nullnullnull> I wrote the connect like this: (let? s(connect "" 80)(close s))(bye)
<Regenaxer> yes, fine, but instead of 's' an upper case 'S' is strongly recommended
<beneroth> see the naming conventions:
<beneroth> they don't have semantic meaning in the language, but are best practice for getting readable and good code, and to avoid common mistakes
<nullnullnull> thanks mate ;) I'm reading now the docs, to see about the timeout
<Regenaxer> 'connect' has no timeout. You can use 'abort'
<beneroth> connect does not retry itself
<Regenaxer> (let? S (abort 60 (connect ...
<nullnullnull> oh
<beneroth> Regenaxer, database question, how can I merge (rel birthday (+Ref +Number)) and (rel birthday-2 (+Ref +Number)) into a single index (but two properties) ?
<Regenaxer> +Aux is not suitable?
<beneroth> not possible, would need creation of a custom prefix +idx class, yes?
<nullnullnull> abort -- Undefined
<beneroth> I want to have two index entries, not a combination
<Regenaxer> nullnullnull, did you start 'pil'?
<beneroth> nullnullnull, use pil instead of picolisp
<Regenaxer> 'picolisp' is not enough
<nullnullnull> ah it's different
<nullnullnull> sec
<Regenaxer> beneroth, why birthday-2?
<Regenaxer> isnt it redundant?
<beneroth> second person, same contact
<Regenaxer> ok
<Regenaxer> and why +Number and not +Date?
<beneroth> not separating person in its own entity here
<beneroth> Regenaxer, haha, yes right should be date
<beneroth> I'm still sleeping
<Regenaxer> :)
<beneroth> nullnullnull, start picolisp and pil in interactive mode, then type: abort
<beneroth> (without parens)
<beneroth> then you get the value of the symbol 'abort
<Regenaxer> Why do you need a *single* index?
<nullnullnull> yes worked mate, btw the "abort" is exit with success
<beneroth> nullnullnull, in picolisp interactive mode you see abort -> NIL. in pil you see abort -> (("N" . ... it's lisp source code
<Regenaxer> So no timeout?
<Regenaxer> (abort 5 (connect "server" 80))
<beneroth> nullnullnull, you can set *Bye to exit differently
<nullnullnull> yeah I saw it
<nullnullnull> yes but the Bye is for the good exit (when the connection established)
<nullnullnull> like this:
<nullnullnull> (let? s(abort 2(connect "" 82))(close s))(bye)
<beneroth> abort is not exciting, your usual (bye) gets reached
<nullnullnull> ah
<beneroth> abort is only aborting the command(s) (the prg) you gave it
<nullnullnull> so I need to make an if statement if "aborted"
<beneroth> yes
<beneroth> not every abort is meaning the programm should exit with a failure code :)
<Regenaxer> (let? S (abort 2 (connect "" 82)) (println S) (close S))
<nullnullnull> sec
<beneroth> Regenaxer, when searching for a birthday, I do not bother which persons birthday it is :D
<beneroth> Regenaxer, nice way would be to make a separate Person entity. but I do not to this for this current projects because of reasons.
<Regenaxer> ok, so 2 indexes, but ((bd1 +Cls bd2 +Cls) ...) in 'select'
<Regenaxer> like last time
<Regenaxer> searching 2 indexes in a row
<beneroth> Regenaxer, just wanted to confirm that there is "merge this into one index" prefix around :)
<beneroth> Regenaxer, yeah, that is fine :)
<Regenaxer> you can merge in the superclass with +Ref2
<nullnullnull> "NIL -- Small number expected"
<Regenaxer> the index in the superclass
<beneroth> Regenaxer, ah yes, exactly. +Ref2 but on same class I want :)
<Regenaxer> no idea atm :)
<beneroth> Regenaxer, nevermind :)
<Regenaxer> nullnullnull, which call expected the number?
<Regenaxer> 'close'?
<Regenaxer> but let? will not go there
<beneroth> Regenaxer, I should stop asking you things I know with 99% certainty xD
<Regenaxer> hehe :)
<Regenaxer> 1% is needed sometimes
<nullnullnull> ok fixed it
<beneroth> Regenaxer, T. though arguably it was less with this specific question.
<nullnullnull> (let? S(abort 2(connect "" 82))(close S)(bye))(bye 2)
<beneroth> nullnullnull, make some spaces please XD
<nullnullnull> the first bye is for good connection, the second bye2 for timeout
<nullnullnull> ok :D
<Regenaxer> you need an 'if' then
<beneroth> nullnullnull, I mean (let? S (abort 2 (conn ....
<beneroth> :)
<nullnullnull> because the abort is surronding the area around the first "bye"
<Regenaxer> (let S (connect) (if S (...) (bye 2)))
<nullnullnull> and it reached the second "bye" if timeout
<beneroth> nullnullnull, T
<beneroth> T = picolisper slang for: yes, agree, right
<Regenaxer> (let S (abort 2 (connect)) (ifn S (bye 2) (doSomething S) (bye)))
<nullnullnull> ifn = if not?
<Regenaxer> yes
<nullnullnull> ah nice
<beneroth> (when) if without else case
<beneroth> (unless) ifn without else case
<Regenaxer> T, most conditional functions have a negated version
<Regenaxer> if <-> ifn, 'while' <-> 'until'
<beneroth> better to read, and tiny bit faster to execute :)
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<Regenaxer> T
<Regenaxer> and to avoid 'not'
<Regenaxer> (if (not S) ..) <-> (ifn S ...)
<nullnullnull> good to know, thanks guys ;)
<Regenaxer> In CL it does not matter, the compiler will remove the 'not'
<Regenaxer> But pil is an interpreter
<beneroth> nicer code -> nicer/faster/smaller execution
<Regenaxer> exactly
<beneroth> in picolisp the source code is exactly what gets executed
<beneroth> it gets translated to a binary representation in memory, but that is just a compacter representation of the same, nothing gets changed
<nullnullnull> REPL
<beneroth> nullnullnull, just out of curiosity, how did get interest in picolisp and find us?
<nullnullnull> im trying to learn about all the programming languages :P
<beneroth> good reason :D
<beneroth> you work as programmer? which languages did you already learn?
<nullnullnull> yes mate, python and java atm
<nullnullnull> and scripting with bash a bit
<beneroth> picolisp is bad for happiness. the more I get used to it, the more I deeply hate mainstream languages (e.g. C#)
<beneroth> nice
<nullnullnull> I saw the "Crystal" language, it's also nice
<beneroth> in C# I spend nearly all my time fighting its idiosyncrasies and the type system. doing actual programming is the small part :(
<beneroth> nullnullnull, oh didn't hear about that one. nice. looks a bit like python or Golang
<beneroth> but very young, only 1 year old
<nullnullnull> it's like best of ruby and best of C
<beneroth> I think the best of C is that it is so primitive and a small language. which is kinda also it's worst.
<beneroth> but a nice language, not so bloated.
<beneroth> bloat is the big evil in "picolispism" :D
<beneroth> KISS the holy grail
<Regenaxer> yep :)
<nullnullnull> for example in crystal u write the connection like this: require "socket";"",80,connect_timeout:2); s.close
<beneroth> I see
<nullnullnull> btw why there are many lisp stuff out there? I saw many lisps
<beneroth> the original lisp language splittered in many dialects in the 1970s
<nullnullnull> the commonlisp is the original one?
<Regenaxer> yes, hundreds
<Regenaxer> no, CL tried to mix them up
<beneroth> and they can be very different, the thing making a language a lisp is equivalence of code and data, which kinda always results in this typical (parens) style
<Regenaxer> CL was very late
<nullnullnull> oh
<Regenaxer> (in the 80s or so)
<Regenaxer> Lisp is from the 50s
<nullnullnull> cuz i saw "newlisp"
<beneroth> see the timeline table at the end on the wikipedia article:
<Regenaxer> Newlisp is not really a lisp
<beneroth> (I think it is not really correct for picolisp)
<nullnullnull> oh
<Regenaxer> only paren syntax
<beneroth> Lisp is the second oldest high programming language still in use
<nullnullnull> yeah they didnt mention anything about linux support
<beneroth> second after Fortran
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<nullnullnull> and I thought pascal is old :P
<beneroth> Lisp is, and was the whole time, the most powerful language. in recent decades other languages copied most lisp features, except the "code is data" which gives it its ultimate abstraction and flexibility power
<beneroth> Pascal is younger. and dead, I think, except for introduction courses.
<beneroth> Fortran still lives because it has many important mechanic and physics simulation libraries, which you cannot re-implement without extremely huge efforts.
<nullnullnull> and it's part of gcc
<nullnullnull> gnu fortran
<beneroth> The original lisp was meant as a teaching language, not to be programmed with. therefore its designed from logic thinking, not from how to build compilers (like C and most languages)
<nullnullnull> so only the oldest people used lisp right?
<beneroth> no
<beneroth> but... interested freaks, yes
<beneroth> Lisp was always the main language of AI programming and research, or until recently when machine learning took over the field
<nullnullnull> cuz I dont remember hearing about lisp when I was @ college or @ school
<beneroth> yeah it was always a niche
* jan6 wonders why people don't use lisp for AI nowdays, much
<beneroth> if a programmer has heard of lisp, its a good sign that it is a well informed programmer. if a programmer knows some lisp, its likely a better than average programmer
<nullnullnull> yeah , I heard about lisp when I started doing "some researches" about all the "alive" programming languages
<beneroth> jan6, because AI now is mostly number crunching statistics, not symbol logic
<beneroth> some people say you should learn lisp just to learn its way of thinking, so you get a better programmer in other languages too
<beneroth> I think this is absolutely valid
<Regenaxer> T
<beneroth> Lisp invented the if statement. the garbage collector. and much more.
<nullnullnull> btw I noticed that the commonlisp is not really "unified", I saw many compilers there like sbcl, ccl, allegro and more
<beneroth> last "kinda" single version was Lisp 1.5, then followed MacLisp, and then it splittered. Common Lisp was an attempt to unify the lisps again, but the result is a mixture of many things, similar to C++
<beneroth> aye, exactly
<nullnullnull> oh
<beneroth> when I wanted to learn lisp, I found out about those many compilers and platform problems, so I turned away from Common Lisp. had enough of that with C++ xD
<nullnullnull> but they confused the people, so many versions
<beneroth> T
<beneroth> now I do much of my programming purely in picolisp. it is simple. it is pragmatic and extremely practical oriented. and it is over 30 years old, was always used for real business applications, so well tested and proven. not some young niche thingy.
<nullnullnull> and some people told me that: one day (maybe) an old programming language might rise from the dead again
<beneroth> but as a lisp it's rather different than mainstream languages. and within the lisp family, picolisp is a radical sticking extremely to the "code is data", no compiler, and fexpr usage. fexpr is a lisp language element which came out of fashion in most lisps (because fexpr cannot be compiled, essentially. but they're more powerful than compilable macros)
<nullnullnull> yeah, btw mate you're using emacs ide or vscode?
<beneroth> the good languages are not dead. even many bad ones are not dead (e.g. cobol)
<beneroth> I use emacs. my employee uses vs code. Regenaxer uses vip, his own picolisp implementation of vim.
<nullnullnull> ah nice
<nullnullnull> and cobol is mainly used for banks right?
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<beneroth> I detest vs code for being based upon electron, which I see as a bloaty insecure card house. and I'm not an big fan of MS, even when they are currently forced to play nicely.
<beneroth> nullnullnull, yeah cobol is big in finance and insurance stuff. for historic reasons. the companies never re-implemented their old shit and are scarred to switch, because they forgot how their old programms work (as the programmers got retired)
<beneroth> all I know about cobol is that is a kind of ugly bad mix of fortran and C++, in a way
<beneroth> designed by committee, originally intended for database and number calculation
<nullnullnull> maybe one day: someone will make a converter from cobol to some X language
<beneroth> surely someone already did
<nullnullnull> oh
<beneroth> I worked with Fortran to C transpilers
<jan6> if you somehow get a cobol job, I heard that it pays well, probably because everyone hates it, lol
<beneroth> works well. problem is, the output code is usually unreadable
<beneroth> jan6, exactly. and not so many people around anymore who have experience with it.
<nullnullnull> but if there's a converter, why they keep using cobol?
<jan6> because you can't read the converted code?
<jan6> because it "just works" ?
<nullnullnull> like for example to convert from cobol to java
* jan6 *shivers*
<nullnullnull> or no chance :P no idea
<jan6> STOP RUN.
<jan6> DISPLAY 'Hello World'.
<nullnullnull> reminds me of the DBA jobs, not many people out there
<jan6> good luck translating that ;P
<nullnullnull> ah but the tool will automatically convert that for you
<jan6> yes
<jan6> but not readably
<nullnullnull> ah
<nullnullnull> looks nasty :P haha
<jan6> also seems most converters are paid, because of course they are
<jan6> "COBOL was the first widely used high-level programming language. It is an English-like language which is user friendly. All the instructions can be coded in simple English words." lol
<nullnullnull> like writing a bed time story :P
<nullnullnull> and then you will have your calculator app
<nullnullnull> yeah not free
<nullnullnull> cobol to java
<nullnullnull> "75% of the world's business data is still in Cobol" dam
<jan6> 2008, mind you
<jan6> I'd estimate it to be ~50%-ish now ;P
<nullnullnull> oh old article :D
<jan6> "I know it's an old man's game. I like the position of being the younger individual in the market," he says. "You're going to have people retiring and nobody to fill their shoes. So I think my job stability is about as good as it can get."
<nullnullnull> but nice idea, if I learn cobol today and then go apply for cobol jobs (they will pay good)
<jan6> ^ pretty much the point of even learning cobol nodays ;P
<jan6> there's always less and less cobol programmers, so if you get a job, you're basially guaranteed job(s) till everyone gives up, because old pros just die or retire ;P
<nullnullnull> :D
<jan6> Nevertheless, Cobol programming is still a useful skill for IT professionals to have. "The world doesn't need 100,000 new Cobol programmers, but it does need several thousand new Cobol programmers," says Drake Coker, chief technology officer for Cobol at Micro Focus International. "There is a lot of work out there for people who know how to take a new system with new technology and marry it to an existing
<jan6> system," he adds.
<jan6> so yeah, if you know cobol, perl, lisp, python AND java then you're guaranteed to be in high demand ;P
<jan6> add javascript and VERY high demand ;P
* jan6 shakes fist at all dem kids using web apps for everything
<nullnullnull> also perl?
* jan6 shakes fist at node.js and stuff too
<jan6> perl used to be the language of choice to hack things together in, plus old web scripts
<jan6> nowdays python tends to fill that hole
<nullnullnull> what about ruby?
<jan6> idk
<jan6> optional
<nullnullnull> ;)
<jan6> I love the lisp one, explains very well how I feel about it ;P
<Regenaxer> Wrong! There are not generally more parens in Lisp than in C-style languages
<Regenaxer> Count them!
<jan6> yes
<jan6> (but(they(accumulate(a(lot(more))))))
<Regenaxer> yep, and only one kind, "(" ")"
<jan6> (there(never(was(another(kind(ya(doof(;(P)))))))))
<Regenaxer> Well, PicoLisp has super-parens [ and ]
<jan6> ((((that)is)cheating)!)
<jan6> (also afaik only ] is super, [ is just a different symbol with same function)
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<Regenaxer> No, it behaves different from )
<Regenaxer> ] closes all to the matching [, or till top level
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<jan6> yes, that's what i meant about ]
<jan6> but [ isnt super
<Regenaxer> I think it is, as it behaves differently
<Regenaxer> [a b c) won't work
<jan6> yeah, still
<jan6> [ is basically a second version of ( and ] will close [ or any amount of ) (for convenience)
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<Regenaxer> yep
<jan6> would be nice if it closed any amount of [ too ;P
<Regenaxer> This would not be good
<jan6> not right now, sure
<jan6> not when it's already used differently for a long time
<Regenaxer> this, plus it loses its power
<Regenaxer> you can't have a complicated sub-expression embedded somewhere with [ and ]
<Regenaxer> hard to explain ;)
<Regenaxer> You can't specify where to stop the closing then
<jan6> k
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<Regenaxer> Super parens are not so important any longer - now that editors match parens
<Regenaxer> I use them rarely
<Regenaxer> Mainly in Repl if I'm too lazy
<jan6> ()o()k(),() ()t()h()e()n().()
<jan6> (if the fancy text styling is annoying you can say to stop ;P)
<Regenaxer> No problem :)
* jan6 wonders if it'd be worth it to make a function for the irc client to (auto(paren(text(for(funzies)))))
<Regenaxer> Haha, not sure
<nullnullnull> btw guys, there's no way to exec script (like -eval) on the fly right? so I must save my script to a file and run it with "pil <filename>"
<Regenaxer> (call "script")
<Regenaxer> or (in '("script" args) (line ...
<nullnullnull> sec
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<nullnullnull> pil (call "script inside here")
<nullnullnull> : (call "script")
<nullnullnull> `Script started, file is typescript`
<nullnullnull> it calls system file
<Regenaxer> ok
<nullnullnull> I mean instead of: pil +
<nullnullnull> is there a way to write script directly in one line?
<nullnullnull> like pil -eval 'script here'
<Regenaxer> hmm, 'evql' is not for script
<Regenaxer> s
<Regenaxer> pil -'call "script"'
<nullnullnull> thanks mate ;) worked
<nullnullnull> btw I didn't find that info in the documentation
<nullnullnull> about the -'call "script"
<Regenaxer> : (doc 'call) ?
<Regenaxer> or you mean the '-'?
<Regenaxer> see the "invocation" chapter in doc/ref.html
<nullnullnull> ah sec
<nullnullnull> ah the invocation, I missed that one :P
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<Regenaxer> np :)
<Regenaxer> or, $ man pil
<Regenaxer> a very short intro only
<nullnullnull> yeah I forgot about the man command ;) I always used --help
<Regenaxer> Yeah, the man is more pro-forma, just for an initial start
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