arigato changed the topic of #pypy to: PyPy, the flexible snake (IRC logs: https://quodlibet.duckdns.org/irc/pypy/latest.log.html#irc-end ) | use cffi for calling C | mac OS and Fedora are not Windows
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<njs> out of curiosity: how much of a slowdown do you think we would see on CPython if we used PyPy's cffi-based ssl module instead of the current stdlib version?
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<bbot2> Started: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-64/builds/6228 [mattip: force build, stdlib-2.7.16]
<mattip> we should update the vendored cryptography, we have v1.7.2 from 2017-01-27, latest release is 2.6.1 from 2019-02-07
<bbot2> Failure: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-64/builds/6228 [mattip: force build, stdlib-2.7.16]
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<LarstiQ> njs: is there anyone who understands it well enough in theory to predict that?
<njs> LarstiQ: I don't know, but probably anyone who's worked on _ssl.py would at least have a more-informed guess than I do :-)
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<mattip> njs: it might be easier to benchmark and make the case for sqlite3
<njs> mattip: dealing with old versions of ssl is about 100x more painful than dealing with old versions of sqlite3 though
<njs> maybe 1000x
<mattip> right, but there are two issues: is a cffi-based c-extension inherintly slower, and
<mattip> is a cryptography-based (cffi) _ssl slower
<njs> it's really just an idle thought at this point, but with the rumblings about possibly splitting parts of the stdlib out into independently versioned packages, moving the ssl module to pypi does have some attractions
<njs> but then you'd want the version on pypi to work beyond cpython
<mattip> as long as it is a ensuressl type of move
<njs> yeah, it would be that if anything
<mattip> the issue of "what is python.org going to ship" needs to be hashed out in some meeting with the debian/redhat packager maintainers, anaconda, pypa,
<mattip> with some representatives from big companies (Brumberg, Boeing, ...)
<mattip> would be good to get them all in one room and reach some working big-picture axioms
<mattip> I think your mail on discourse (which I cannot find in the web ui at discuss.python.org) lays it out well, but not sure it is reaching the right people
<njs> I mentioned it on python-dev too
<njs> and that thread is just one piece of the larger conversation
<njs> but also I'm not really sure what business it is of anaconda or bloomberg whether it's possible to upgrade IDLE within a single python version or not?
<njs> (IDLE and distutils will probably be the actual first test cases for generalizing ensurepip)
<mattip> using PyPI is not unversally accepted as a good thing
<mattip> but maybe we can sell the ensurepip approach in a way that makes corporate happy
<mattip> and does not complicate the life of distro maintainers like debian, anaconda
<mattip> design it from the ground up to support non-pip use cases
<njs> (also, debian already breaks up the stdlib into separately installable pieces)
<mattip> right, but then when someone does `pip install` it breaks, so now we are making that also break the stdlib packages
<mattip> but I'm sure you have discussed this to death with others, so I will stop
<njs> hmm, that's a good point
<mattip> one last thought - I wonder if there is a way to convince distros and conda-forge to upstream their package-fix recipes
<mattip> so pypi packages become much more like conda-forge and distro-specific ones
<mattip> then maybe `pip install` becomes less destructive
<njs> the main reason 'pip install' is destructive is that now you have two inconsistent sources of truth about what's installed
<njs> pip's package database, and conda/apt/yum's package database
<njs> and unfortunately there's no quick fix for that :-/
<mattip> doesn't have to be quick, just agreed-upon-going-forward, but in order to do that all the right people have to be in the conversation
<mattip> seems like PyCon packaging summit was a good start
<njs> I've had a bunch of conversations with the conda folks about this, and I think it's fixable in their case, but so far it hasn't seemed to stick
<njs> for apt/yum I don't think there is any solution, except maybe pip should refuse to work in that case unless you write, like --please-destroy-my-distro-package-manager
<mattip> everyone is so involved in putting out the fires, it is hard to think big
<mattip> without re$ource$ it is hard to imagine things changing for the better
<mattip> and it is hard to create win-win scenarios
<njs> well, maybe Peter's B-corp will solve it :-)
<njs> there are a lot of win-win scenarios in packaging in general, it's just super hard to get everyone on the same page
<mattip> :)
<mattip> it can be 99% win-win, but the 1% who loses is going to make lots of noise
<mattip> much easier to torpedo new things that to change legacy code
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<mattip> but we are off topic for #pypy
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<kenaan> mattip default a6c18dc8a3c6 /: set owner attribute, fix test for more modern OpenSSL
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<kenaan> mattip default 6658d2817ce4 /lib_pypy/_cffi_ssl/_cffi_src/openssl/ssl.py: handle old OpenSSL without SSL_OP_ENABLE_MIDDLEBOX_COMPAT
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