<wolfspraul>
it could go into much more depth in many areas, but it's a great start I think, should be safe from deletion for irrelevance or quality reasons, I would hope
<rjeffries>
I am so old I remember when wolfspraul dismissed the idea of writing up Ben NN on wikipedia. ;)
<rjeffries>
we all learn and grow and change
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I'll look for your screen photos tomorrow.
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul agree the Milkymist article is Most Excellent. congrats!
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: you may want to take a coffee. they're just a moment away ...
<rjeffries>
ok then
<rjeffries>
I am wondering what the FPGA chip in MM costs in the 100 qty sharism is buying
<rjeffries>
ok the reason I asked was I did not see in on RC3 bom, thx
<wolfspraul>
because rc3 pcb has not been made yet
<rjeffries>
in any case from my POV at current qty 1 price your margin is pretty thin
<rjeffries>
understood
<wolfspraul>
you and your margins :-)
<wolfspraul>
If there is one thing I'm not worried about, seriously, it's competition from Ron Manufacturing Enterprises, Inc.
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<rjeffries>
buxiness guys are such a total pain in the you know what
<rjeffries>
yes you have NO FEAR in terms of me
<wolfspraul>
looking at bom items for these small runs tells you very little. best is to try out with some runs, then you learn a lot.
<rjeffries>
yes prices drop a lot in volume
<wolfspraul>
keep in mind that in the end the raw materials for all this are still dirt cheap
<wolfspraul>
mostly what you pay for is people's time, knowledge, experience
<wolfspraul>
also yield, very important. don't forget. who owns the yield?
<wolfspraul>
if you ask that, I know you are serious :-)
<wolfspraul>
people who ask about bom first, ...
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
but naturally 95% or more ask about bom first
<wolfspraul>
I did the same a few years back.
<rjeffries>
bom is all I have to look at. I was only curious as to the FPGA I had no idea the price range
<wolfspraul>
gotta start somewhere
<wolfspraul>
39
<rjeffries>
not as much as I thought
<wolfspraul>
proprietary IC prices are largely impacted by strength of IP, target market/customer, etc.
<wolfspraul>
some people pay 10 USD, some 500 USD
<wolfspraul>
it all depends
<wolfspraul>
the IC itself, if you take out all investments (with you cannot, of course), is always just a few pennies
<rjeffries>
nods
<wolfspraul>
so xilinx 'makes' 38.50 USD on this
<wolfspraul>
in a super simplistic calculation
<wolfspraul>
probably with high-end process nodes like 45nm in this case the contracts with Samsung also have a lot of back-and-forth payments when reaching this or that target
<wolfspraul>
they work on 28nm now, for the -7 generation
<rjeffries>
by the way in higher volumes yiedl belongs to the assembly house they make educated guess the first time the see a design, iuf the yield is crappy next time you pay more
<rjeffries>
in fact it is a partnership bewteen desgn engineering and the manufactuter
<rjeffries>
all that matters to you is it costs you $39 and change
<rjeffries>
(for thsi chip in this volume at this time)
<wpwrak>
no comments on my vga ? sneef.
<rjeffries>
hang on
<rjeffries>
where is the link wpwrak?
<rjeffries>
oh now I see I missed it
<rjeffries>
amazing
<rjeffries>
like an elephant that dances. amazing period
<rjeffries>
I will admit I would not choose to read War and Peace on that display
<wpwrak>
i could be improved a little by using two more signals for additional colors. right now, it's 3 bit color :)
<rjeffries>
ah
<wpwrak>
yeah, the horizontal resolution is faux-320. since the gpios are so slow, i only have one update cycle per pixel. in the ingenic cpus, you can't write a value directly to a port but you have to either set or clear. so i alternate set and clear commands. this means that the worst-case resolution is only 160 pixels.
<wpwrak>
and even there i had to cheat. the timing isn't quite vga. my scan lines are about 10% longer. luckily, most monitors tolerate this.
<rjeffries>
fascinating experiment. now I am off to bed. cu
<wpwrak>
ah no, only one signal left for grey levels
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: I see a lot of grey stripes in the video. is that on purpose or an artefact of the theora conversion? can you upload the .avi original from your camera?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: yeah, tat's a feature of kdenlive :-(
<wpwrak>
the original video has copyrighted background music (radio). i'll put it at a safe place ...
<wpwrak>
(copyrighte) well, non-open
<wolfspraul>
upload it, I convert to ogg without sound, and delete the original
<wolfspraul>
how about that?
<wpwrak>
yeah, had something similar in mind :) just via my server. the bottleneck is the upload anyway.
<dvdk>
--disable-muxer : maybe we can disable the broken ffmpeg ogg demuxer?
<kyak>
dvdk: i think it's for you to decide, you are the mplayer expert :)
<dvdk>
kyak: only unwillingly )
<dvdk>
s/)/:)
<roh>
interresting how much energy is put into delivering crippled sw
<roh>
just my 2 cents (out of the perspective to have seen this all before) .. the support work would be much more bearable if you dont deliver mplayer at all instead of one which can only play half the stuff
<dvdk>
roh: we can only play quarter of the stuff anyway, due to nanonote's weak cpu :)
<dvdk>
roh: no problem to re-encode to your favourite format?
<roh>
dvdk: bwahahaha... its not 1996 anymore dude
<kyak>
in fact, we can deliver mplayer with only ONE stuff.. due to necessity to decode to Ben's screen and capabilities
<dvdk>
roh: have to do it to not get wolfgang into any trouble on nanonote shipping (openmoko phones had these problems already)
<dvdk>
i.e. patent ligitation
<roh>
besides.. in reality there is neither the screen nor the audio out good enough for 'video' or 'music' . its ok for scummvm-sound tho
<roh>
dvdk: i know. i was working at openmoko
<dvdk>
roh: it has a stereo out.  good enough isn't it?  as good as my desktop-pc
<roh>
thats why i said.. dont ship broken sw. better not ship it at all.
<kyak>
roh: in reality i watch tv shows on Ben connecting it to car's audio system, when the traffic is super hard
<dvdk>
screen size is debatable, but werner is working on a solution already :)
<dvdk>
i think an mplayer alternative would be to use a minimal player besed on liboggplay which is the demuxing/seeking framework that firefox uses.
<dvdk>
but still more wok.
<dvdk>
s/wok/work
<kyak>
besides, i don't know why roh keeps insisting that mplayer is "broken" :)
<dvdk>
kyak: look at the mplayer sourcecode, then you'll understand :)
<roh>
kyak: ever looked at the code?
<dvdk>
two dudes, one thought.
<roh>
today somebody mentioned that there is a fork of mplayer now.. mplayer2. no mencoder anymore and they tried cleaning up the source.
<roh>
sounded like a project for somebody loving pain
<dvdk>
roh: saw that already. looks extremely nice.  but first things first :)
<kyak>
why would i look into the code? it works, and nobody has offered an alternative
<dvdk>
roh: we're all loving pain, aren't we, spending our free time in front of the pc _working_ :)
<roh>
i use mplayer code a lot. as example how real-world-fileformats look like and what fields are where. and how not to write your code if you need it secure or maintainable... nice simd in ffmpeg still...
<dvdk>
kyak: it only works sometimes (unfortunately).  but still mplayer is extremely optimized and minimalistic (no threading etc., data flow optimized for cahces), so matches nanonote quite well
<roh>
dvdk: better than spending it sitting in an office being paid for killing time NOT working.
<dvdk>
roh: cool, do you currently hire :)
<kyak>
dvdk: that's what i'm saying; the source code might be crappy, but it works better than anything else (for Ben?)
<roh>
dvdk: hehe.. no. but i know lots of people who have such jobs. and its not good for health.
<dvdk>
kyak: looks like configure enables most ffmpeg codecs by default, maybe we should rip that out and only manually enable codecs.  that keeps patents creeping in once we upgrade to newer svn revisions
<roh>
there was a 'beware of patents' switch somewhere
<viric>
dvdk: hey, let me try your advice :)
<dvdk>
roh: not any more
<dvdk>
morning viric
<dvdk>
roh:?
<viric>
guten tag
<dvdk>
roh: you know, mplayer/ffmpeg people already gave up on any unproductive stuff to kill their time.
<kyak>
dvdk: the whitelist approach sounds reasonable
<roh>
you mean the flag is gone?
<roh>
nice. finally some realism *g*
<dvdk>
roh: looks like it.  mplayer release tarballs: also gone, too much work, doing release management :)
<roh>
i can understand.. who should maintain and test a code path nobody seriously uses?
<dvdk>
viric: try a few times, kyak also had a black screen on first tries.  be patient!
<viric>
I was trying to find that 'screenw' 'screenh' line you sent... I think you sent it already, but I could not find it in my mail box
<dvdk>
roh: if nobody uses it?  don't maintain it! :)  already fbdev:vidix hit that fate, just not working.
<kyak>
viric: at that time, it helped me to wait around 1 minute :)
<dvdk>
ogg/ogm demuxer: similar fate.
<viric>
dvdk: well, the video *starts in black*... that makes it also a bad test :) specially when you get the floating point codecs
<dvdk>
viric: hehe.  yes nanonote put -ac tremor into the config file i guess.
<roh>
man i love this li-lo makita .... doing renovations in our new hackerspace.. and somebody brought a battery powered hammer-drill
<roh>
s/lo/po/&g
<viric>
dvdk: and I could not see any cpu usage difference between theora and fftheora
<dvdk>
viric: maybe depending on content.  it should be.  ffmpeg renders directly into the dma buffers, whil theora has an additinoal copy.  plus many other differences (cache usage etc.)
<dvdk>
viric: you have to give -fs to make it scale and -screenw -screenh to tell it your screen dimension
<viric>
what I am forgetting?
<dvdk>
-fs
<dvdk>
?
<viric>
aah
<dvdk>
or press 'f' during playback?  wouldn't try that, though :)
<viric>
MPlayer interrupted by signal 11 in module: video_read_frame
<viric>
it looks like 'random crashes'
<dvdk>
viric: uname -a?
<dvdk>
Linux BenNanoNote 2.6.32.27 #1 PREEMPT Thu Feb 24 12:46:39 CET 2011 mips GNU/Linux
<viric>
Linux nano 2.6.36 #1 PREEMPT Thu Mar 10 12:41:34 UTC 2011 mips GNU/Linux
<dvdk>
viric: maybe here's the problem?
<viric>
dvdk: If I take out the '-fs', it works just fine. but no scaling, ofc.
<dvdk>
viric: you mean it won't crash?
<viric>
it does not crash.
<dvdk>
viric: either timing, or in full-screen it writes beyond the bottom edge of the screen
<dvdk>
how does it look? where is the video placed?
<viric>
centered
<dvdk>
hmm.
<dvdk>
you could try -geometry 320x240+0+0 or something instead of -fs to see when it stops working
<viric>
-geometry 320x240+0+0 hangs
<viric>
well crashes, like with -fs
<dvdk>
try 320x120 etc.
<viric>
300x200 crashes too
<dvdk>
does it output some frames before crashing?
<viric>
yes for soem seconds
<viric>
256x144@0x0 works just fine
<dvdk>
viric: this would disable the scaler, try 256x100
<dvdk>
viric: maybe you just have a CPU with bad silicon ? :)
<viric>
haha
<viric>
256x100...
<dvdk>
maybe dma engine messess with other cache/ram accesess? i mean there is no pattern in the crashes.
<viric>
crash
<dvdk>
enabling the scaler increases ram bandwidth, i guess (has to read more pixels for interpolation)
<viric>
the kernel does not crash, at least.
<dvdk>
viric: it's surprisingly hard to crash :)Â Â not even writing beyond the screen crashes it immedeately
<dvdk>
viric: should try with MPlayer-r33304.tar.gz, it could still be an mplayer bug due to different timing
<dvdk>
viric: playing from nand of from sd-card?
<viric>
from nand
<dvdk>
same here
<dvdk>
other than that enabling the scaler does not change *any* details how software accesses memory.  so cannot see a reason for memory corruptions.  only timing changes.
<Jay7>
dvdk: I'm using escape sequences to disable cursor on fb in kexecboot
<Jay7>
may be this is more convient way
<dvdk>
Jay7: but it's the same problem, just relying on /dev/tty, isn't it?
<Jay7>
dvdk: put sequence on stdout :)
<dvdk>
yeah, with stdout being /dev/tty
<Jay7>
        fputs("\033[?25l", f);
<Jay7>
where f is STDOUT
<dvdk>
jay7: i think KD_GRAPHICS might do more? like disabling scrolling?  also it restores the srceen when doing KD_TEXT afterwards.
<Jay7>
this will disable cursor on controlling terminal
<dvdk>
yeah, and /dev/tty is aways the controlling terminal :)
<Jay7>
when you running mplayer via ssh your pty will be controlling terminal :)
<viric>
dvdk: xiangfu was in charge. I hope he fixed it already.
<viric>
(quite long ago)
<dvdk>
jay7: that's the problem, with your code and with mine.  there is some ioctl to map framebuffer to terminal, but too much hassle...
<Jay7>
but ioctl can't disable cursor on pty as I understand
<Jay7>
so I'm using esc seq which is working there :)
<dvdk>
jay7: but that's no use anyway, since pty != framebuffer
<Jay7>
ah.. seems I understand what you mean
<viric>
dvdk: I don't use any reflash_ben :) nanonixos does not require rootfs reflashing for updating the OS ;)
<Jay7>
this will disable cursor on ssh but not on fb
<dvdk>
jay7: btw same with ioctl.
<Jay7>
yes, but ioctl will disable cursor on fb but not on ssh :)
<Jay7>
hm.. may be call both? :)
<dvdk>
jay7: i guess ioctl() is a superset of esc
<Jay7>
iirc, that ioctl is applicable only on linux console
<Jay7>
or at least tty
<dvdk>
jay7: well, but that's what i'm coding for, no video output via ssh :)
<Jay7>
I should re-read that docs
<Jay7>
libcaca ;)
<dvdk>
jay7: already supported by mplayer ? :)
<dvdk>
mplayer -vo aa
<Jay7>
I just have same problem with kexecboot
<Jay7>
e.g. you may run it with fb UI from serial console
<Jay7>
then it's hard to guess fb<->tty mapping
<Jay7>
well, afk for some hours
<dvdk>
cu
<dvdk>
kyak: is current multimedia/ffmpeg package  really patent free?
<dvdk>
kyak: i guess not:
<wolfspraul>
there is no 'patent free'
<wolfspraul>
we work this from practical threats backwards
<wolfspraul>
that means, to my current knowledge, we should stay away from MP3 and anything from the MPEG LA
<dvdk>
FFMPEG_DECODERS=mp3, mpeg2video wmav1 h264
<dvdk>
kyak: ok, somhow ffmpeg Makefile pulls per-codec flags CONFIG_FFMPEG_ENCODER_* ? where are they described?
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: that's what i meant.
<dvdk>
ah, nice, there's a Config.in  now i understand how this is supposed to work.
<wolfspraul>
our best protection is that patent lawsuits are expensive, and that there is always the (small) chance that due to a lawsuit, a patent gets declared invalid
<wolfspraul>
that's pretty much all that is holding the parasites back
<wolfspraul>
then of course the (still) golden 20 year rule, even if we make it a 25 year rule to be safe :-)
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: being a corporate entity really makes life difficult here.
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: i mean i can host mplayer on my dyndns server and nobody would ever come after me :)
<wolfspraul>
the law is still impartial, in the major markets. so worst case you have to become a patent troll and make it back, even if from someone else :-)
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: that's what samsung is doing against apple currently.  aaah, i hate it.
<wolfspraul>
I cannot imagine that such hosting could cause you practical trouble, never heard of such a case at least.
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: but while they still each other, nanonote can strive for world domination.
<dvdk>
s/still/sue
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: I'm a not-for-profit private person, no chance under german law.
<wolfspraul>
yes sure, like I said I focus on real threats, not fear.
<wolfspraul>
let's take out mp3, mpeg4, h.264
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: and windows media, and ac3, and... only vorbis, flac etc. as far as i see., also mpeg1
<wolfspraul>
Ogg Theora is by now such a hopeless loose that if we are lucky we stay under radar.
<wolfspraul>
looser
<wolfspraul>
if anything the next big battle will be over WebM
<wolfspraul>
let the lawyers make their keyboards crack over that one...
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: if they create a patent pool over Theora, i'm going amok.
<wolfspraul>
who is 'they'?
<wolfspraul>
many people are creating patent pools
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: over theora? mpegla is trying to do that just now, afair.
<wolfspraul>
but it will not be worth to go after Theora, because Theora users are too poor
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: but i mean it's already in firefox.
<wolfspraul>
well let's see. and meanwhile the clock keeps ticking.
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: so that gives theora quite some market share.
<wolfspraul>
I doubt that, but I don't care either we can build our thing.
<wolfspraul>
what's the best guess - how many of the world's tech patent lawyers are currently full-time on the smartphone front?
<wolfspraul>
must be thousands of them
<wolfspraul>
writing and writing and writing. and charging someone.
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: and who writes the law?  more lawyers :)
<wolfspraul>
I feel pretty good about our patent strategy right now.
<dvdk>
can somebody help to list the codecs that are ok to go into the firmware?
<dvdk>
ffmpeg gives us:
<dvdk>
oh my god that list is too long for irc.
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
white-list is better
<wolfspraul>
mp2 is arguably ok btw, or so I read
<wolfspraul>
ogg
<wolfspraul>
flac
<dvdk>
mpeg1 and mp2, yes the xiph stuff i know.
<wolfspraul>
what else do we need?
<dvdk>
the codecs used on mobile phones amrnb etc. are ok ?  dunno
<dvdk>
h261 should be ok?
<wolfspraul>
don't know
<wolfspraul>
wait until someone wants them
<dvdk>
ok, pragmatic.
<dvdk>
but what about demuxers? no patents on them?  only allow mpeg, avi, ogg, mkv?
<wolfspraul>
don't know. like I said I would add things case by case as needed.
<wolfspraul>
seems Ogg is a good starting point
<wolfspraul>
then FLAC, seems popular on some p2p sites and should be patent-safe
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: ogg alone won't help much, very limited container.  mkv is open-source and used by webm, so should be ok, too
<wolfspraul>
that's all I can tell you about
<wolfspraul>
great, you know this much better than me :-)
<dvdk>
of course, flac
<wolfspraul>
I can only say - whitelist, case by case upon request, and then we look into the threat situation
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: already patched configure to not include codecs by default
<dvdk>
start with zero, then whitelist
<wolfspraul>
great
<dvdk>
ok, that's a short list of codecs to enable :)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (horror movie) heh, nice idea ;-) alas, the part where the things is shown in action is very short compared to the rest. not sure if my cutting improved that, though
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: (video)you like like make suspense !!
<kristianpaul>
that room light switching was misterious.. actually i get cautght first by the "OPEN" green msg at the left :)
<kristianpaul>
hmm suspiciously the ben lcm get white just in the time it is showing up in the big screen, is it  light issue or?..
<viric>
Before the dvdk code.... how was the video playing in the nanonote?
<viric>
How could it be usable?
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (white screen) that's just when i turn off the lcd clock. then the display fades. i need to turn off lcd refresh because it would take away precious bus bandwidth. and it would also add noise to my timing.
<kristianpaul>
ah ok
<viric>
wolfspraul: The nanonote plays VP8 video just fine!
<kristianpaul>
:o
<viric>
I've just encoded a video, and it even takes less cpu than theora decoding
<viric>
encoded in the PC, played in the nanonote.
<viric>
But I see flicking
<wolfspraul>
viric: you mean in terms of including vp8 in the whitelisted codecs?
<viric>
wolfspraul: yes
<wolfspraul>
I think it should be fine, right? I am not aware of any agressor there, right now.
<viric>
google says it's caring that there are no patent infringement in it
<wolfspraul>
there's also dirac, which for some reason seems to get little attention but technically is not bad
<wolfspraul>
sure, let's whitelist it then :-) [vp8]
<viric>
isn't it for some peculiar bandwidth?
<viric>
very low bandwidth, or so
<viric>
I forgot its advantadges
<wolfspraul>
no I think it's general purpose
<viric>
ah
<wolfspraul>
just no big corporate giant behind it
<wolfspraul>
no idea, it just came to mind when you mentioned vp8 as another potentially whitelisted codec
<wolfspraul>
I have never once seen dirac in use, anywhere :-)
<wpwrak>
VP8 should be about as safe a google money :)
<viric>
'google money'?
<wpwrak>
viric: google are trying to push that codec. if someone got sued over it and lost, that would be very very bad press for google.
<viric>
btw, mplayer seeks perfectly in matroska containers, but it crashes on ogg containers
<viric>
wpwrak: I agree
<wolfspraul>
that's my concern over VP8, that it is Google. This will be hashed out in the old boys club between Google, MPEG, Apple, Microsoft, etc.
<wpwrak>
viric: so if we'd run into problems with it, it's very likely that google would try to help. particularly given that qi-hw's business ethics are about as evil as mother theresa's, so it would look even worse.
<viric>
well
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: yes, it may get you drawn into a battle, that's true
<viric>
mother theresa is not a very good example I suppose
<wolfspraul>
I wouldn't expect one dime of support, or one tear, for that kind of logic.
<viric>
She is famous for his war against gays
<wpwrak>
viric: (mother theresa) in public opinion ;-)
<wolfspraul>
this is not how things work in the real world
<wolfspraul>
anyway, we see where VP8 goes. at this moment I agree we can consider it to be a free codec.
<viric>
yes
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: naw, if someone got burned for using VP8, others would shun it too. that would be bad for google's investment into it and the value they expect it to have.
<wolfspraul>
fine but there are dozens of players, who knows who cares about what.
<wolfspraul>
many of them will not give a damn about someone else's reputation
<wolfspraul>
but we should give VP8 the benefit of the doubt, otherwise we are just in FUD land ourselves, cannot operate like that...
<wolfspraul>
hey, many may not even give a damn about their own reputation, as long as they get filthy rich
<wolfspraul>
that wouldn't be unheard of, I think is safe to say :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (reputation) what i mean is that qi-hw would look 100% the victim. if, say, microsoft got burnt over vp8. half the world would celebrate and the rest would say that they can very well help themselves. so there would be much less incentive for google to lend a helping hand.
<wolfspraul>
I think in politics you celebrate victory strictly only after it's really over. Until then, even 1 second before the end, expect any dirt from any direction :-) No, I wouldn't count on anything in such a scenario.
<wolfspraul>
and I wouldn't want to be in it even, that's why I still prefer peaceful and more or less forgotten (by the mainstream) Ogg Theora...
<wolfspraul>
I think several people emailed google about their vp8 ic cores - no response
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: with ogg, you'd have the whole free software world up in arms. that may not be too bad either.
<wolfspraul>
correct
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: but yes, staying under the rader is a good strategy as well
<wolfspraul>
stay close to home, don't venture too far
<wolfspraul>
if you really want to pick a fight with Google, Apple, etc. first thing you need to get in touch with high-profile lobbyists, high-profile lawyers, high-profile anything
<wolfspraul>
and why would they even want to talk with you? they have their own agenda. and so on...
<wolfspraul>
bah
<wolfspraul>
maybe you could pull a groklaw and do it all grass-roots, but that kind of thing is rare, and even groklaw is shutting down now
<wolfspraul>
that was a strange coincidence of forces to overlap from one field (free software) into another (law). but you should not count on this happening again, at least I wouldn't.
<wolfspraul>
so you may be crushed, and nobody cares
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: all i'm saying that it would hurt google if someone lost a lawsuit over vp8. in terms of reputation ("i trusted google and lost"), in terms of discrediting their technology and their assurances ("it's not as safe as they claimed"), and perhaps also in terms of establishing a precedent. so it would only be logic if google tried to help you win that case.
<wolfspraul>
that's happening every day, thousands of times
<wolfspraul>
only if you connect it to a pr campaign
<wolfspraul>
and a successful one
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: "copyleft hardware company sued over VP8" that pr writes itself ;-))
<wpwrak>
make that "Google's VP8"
<wolfspraul>
I'm telling you it's all work.
<wolfspraul>
it's not like you or me are the loudspeaker of the world, and the other 7 billion are waking up wondering each day what we have to tell them today
<wolfspraul>
I would never believe in vp8 hoping that if there was a problem, Google would come help me.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: no, but everyone who is contemplating the use of VP8 because of its supposed patent-free state would want to listen in this case
<wolfspraul>
only that I say "nice story, google pr team" :-)
<wolfspraul>
yes, but getting that message out is hard work in itself
<wolfspraul>
I'm not saying it's impossible, I understand you.
<wolfspraul>
but it will not happen by itself, and there are many strategies.
<wolfspraul>
google may also distance themselves from you
<wolfspraul>
if you even get them to issue 1 press release including your name
<wolfspraul>
"this case is about XYZ, not about VP8."
<wolfspraul>
what do you do then?
<wolfspraul>
that press release will be picked up globally
<wolfspraul>
you counter it saying "no!"
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
ha ha
<wolfspraul>
I want to see how that continues :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: you should probably contact them before making a press release :)
<wolfspraul>
no I meant them, I'm just randomly suggesting another approach for Google, the "that's not our stuff" approach.
<wolfspraul>
they won't even do you the favor of listing your name in their statement
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: sure, they can do that. but it may make them look even worse.
<wolfspraul>
may
<wolfspraul>
but their loudspeaker first of all is 1000 times louder than yours
<wolfspraul>
they will first try the easy thing to get over this
<wolfspraul>
they are fighting with stuff every day, they also need to keep their desks clean
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: do you think they have lawsuits over VP8 going on at the moment ?
<wolfspraul>
hmm. pure speculation.
<wolfspraul>
you might think that some lawyers somewhere are looking at this, for sure.
<wolfspraul>
maybe some are collecting evidence, preparing a case
<wolfspraul>
there is a lot you can do before 'lawsuit', i.e. going to a public court
<wolfspraul>
I'm sure Google's legal time has ongoing VP8 related work
<wolfspraul>
I trust Google here actually.
<wolfspraul>
they want this thing to 'just work' so they can spread their ads.
<wolfspraul>
will Apple/Microsoft really go all-in over this? no idea. just random speculation.
<wolfspraul>
right now it seems the smartphones wars keep them busy
<wpwrak>
yeah. a good way to occupy the giants :)
<wolfspraul>
I am sure there are private attempts under-way for VP8 licensing arrangements.
<wolfspraul>
that's pretty much a given
<wolfspraul>
the MPEG LA will 'suggest' this or that to Google
<wolfspraul>
I think that we can be sure of.
<wolfspraul>
mostly they want money, not go to court with all sorts of pesky rules. SO those licensing negotiations may drag on for years.
<viric>
Isn't it simply nice for quite all the parties (apart from the patent owners that want revenue)?
<wolfspraul>
as a side effect of the licensing negotiations they can start to create documents/paper-trail for going to court later, but that's several steps later due to the uncertainties once they do that
<viric>
VP8 decoderes in hardware, in software, all for free for everyone.
<wolfspraul>
viric: keep in mind how the 'patent protection' works
<wolfspraul>
I love to explain it to you.
<viric>
:D
<wolfspraul>
it's a way for all of us to become rich
<wolfspraul>
we can sell the same thing many times
<wolfspraul>
nobody 'owns' anything
<wolfspraul>
it's a form of communism actually
<wolfspraul>
so it works like this
<wolfspraul>
on your website, you call your friends to submit 'patents' to you that make VP8 a 'safe' technology
<wolfspraul>
when you have a whole stack of such patents, you offer all VP8 users the safety of your protection by virtue of a payment into your bank account
<wolfspraul>
that's all
<wolfspraul>
for those that don't understand the beauty of your protection, your stick are the public courts
<wolfspraul>
you can do this
<viric>
Do you think companies are not starting to put vp8 on their devices afraid of something?
<wolfspraul>
and if Werner likes your business model, he can start too, asking his friends to submit, creating another 'safety' pool, and charging the same people you are charging already
<wolfspraul>
you can even sell your customer list to him!
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: you think that's the plan behind OIN and such ?
<wolfspraul>
there's more and more money everywhere, can you see it?
<wolfspraul>
no more house flipping
<wolfspraul>
let's get into patents now
<viric>
I've not understood clearly 'my role', 'my website', and all that in the explanation... I may need more words
<viric>
I don't understand 'submit patents' either
<wolfspraul>
ok I was just kidding anyway
<viric>
:)
<wolfspraul>
that 'submit' can be left very undefined
<wolfspraul>
you can run the whole scheme on pure fear
<wolfspraul>
the power of words
<wolfspraul>
when you write to your customers, you don't need to tell them exactly which patents you own
<wolfspraul>
you just need a good name and logo
<wolfspraul>
viric: which country do you live in?
<viric>
So, I would be selling some assurance that the payer will not be infringing anything
<wolfspraul>
yes!
<viric>
ok
<viric>
then I got it
<wolfspraul>
that they are not infringing on the intellectual property of you and your friends
<viric>
wolfspraul: I live in Catalonia, but most governments in the world won't recognize it as a "country" by internationally agreed legal terms.
<viric>
wolfspraul: and thus I'm counted as a Spanish citizen
<viric>
regardless of my opinion.
<wpwrak>
viric: no, you can't sell an assurance against infringing on anything. you can sell an assurance that you won't go after them, though. whether they accept or not depends on how dangerous they think you are. see SCO and those (few) licenses they sold.
<viric>
wpwrak: ah clear. ok.
<wolfspraul>
yes, my wording may not have been very precise.
<wolfspraul>
and SCO probably shows you the limits of the model, I agree with Werner.
<wolfspraul>
I don't understand OIN, no idea.
<wolfspraul>
let's hope Google can keep VP8 free
<wolfspraul>
even if they drag out any public lawsuits for a few years, with endless licensing negotiations - fine by me
<viric>
and Google advertised itself as assuming responsabilities if VP8 infringes any patent, proposing its own lawyer forces to protect VP8 users?
<wolfspraul>
Google cannot do that
<wolfspraul>
Google has no power over the patent system.
<viric>
lawyer forces
<wolfspraul>
Google will never ever lend out their high-paid legal team to support some Joe Doe in a patent case.
<viric>
So if someone gets sued for VP8 usage infringing patents, google lawyers will come as help
<wolfspraul>
not in a million years
<viric>
:)
<viric>
Is google using vp8 anywherE?
<viric>
I remember youtube used h264 in its html5...
<wolfspraul>
yes I think they are migrating quite strongly, no?
<viric>
I don't remember youtube switching from h264 to vp8
<viric>
maybe it happened
<viric>
I don't know
<viric>
They are closing google video, that's true. I received a letter as a google video uploader about that
<viric>
The first brave user of vp8 should be google itself. But I don't know how brave it is by now :)
<wolfspraul>
it's a very respected codec, remember it was bought from a company with quite some history
<wolfspraul>
it's a solid option, for sure
<viric>
I mean brave related to patents
<wolfspraul>
yeah well. that's outside of Google's control mostly.
<wolfspraul>
they are an attractive target because they have money.
<viric>
But it would look strange, if Google said VP8 is patent free and Google itself was not using it
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: why should google not offer legal advise ? what they can't do is offer to just compensate for all damages, otherwise you'd have trolls going after even the least small shop, hoping for big goolg emoney
<viric>
GRrr how to measure the battery left in the nanontoe?
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: he, correct. I see now you start to think around some corners too :-)
<wolfspraul>
I have no idea, it's all speculation.
<wolfspraul>
I would never for one second hope that Google helps me with _ANYTHING_ if I have a problem.
<wolfspraul>
if you want to believe that, go try and we find out... Maybe I'm wrong.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: well, it's always safer to not count on getting help
<wolfspraul>
and like you also noticed now - they have to be careful.
<wolfspraul>
there are lots of setups
<viric>
Grr I don't have /sys/class/power_supply/battery in 2.6.36.3
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: but in this sort of case, it seems that it would be to google's disadvantage if you lost a lawsuit over their codec
<wolfspraul>
you create a small company, I sue you. google helps you. After some more twists we both get rich from google money :-)
<wolfspraul>
if you think that kind of thing cannot happen, well...
<wolfspraul>
if there even were a 0.001% chance that it might work, someone will try
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: yes, of course. or you sell a ben with all codecs under the sun, including vp8. then sisvel knocks on your door for mp3 and you run to google crying about vp8.
<wolfspraul>
I want to stay out of all this.
<wolfspraul>
I want to make products that work, build a customer base, grow it. Have real users. etc.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i note with approval that you've been thinking of ways to improve the financial situation of sharim ;-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: create a sister company that takes care of the legal issues, suism.cc ;-)
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
the first product would not be the ben nanonote but the qizha patent pool :)
<wpwrak>
hey, who understands chinese IP laws anyway ? a golden opportunity for a reign of FUD ;-)
<kristianpaul>
hahah
<rozzin>
trollism.cc. I might actually like to have that one....
<LunaVorax_mini>
I didn't knew at all that the minisd card slot was offering so much possibilities :o
<LunaVorax_mini>
That's insanely awesome
<wpwrak>
LunaVorax_mini: in fact, we can even do a little better. i now have doubled the number of updates (at half the pixel clock) and it more or less works at least on one of my monitors
<wpwrak>
LunaVorax_mini: (possibilities) never underestimate the power of bitbanging ;-)
<LunaVorax_mini>
That's fantastic wpwrak
<kyak>
now, that UBB-VGA output by wpwrak fits together well with job being done by dvdk :)
<LunaVorax_mini>
That's not true 320x240, I understood it right ?
<wpwrak>
kyak: alas, you can't combine the two. each already eats most of the memory nbandwidth
<wpwrak>
LunaVorax_mini: it's somewhere between 160-320x240, with line doubling
<kyak>
wpwrak: hm.. are you saying there is no practical application for that thing ? -\
<wpwrak>
kyak: you could use it for slide shows and similar applications
<kyak>
still, it is very good
<LunaVorax_mini>
No transition but is the Ya Nanonote still planned
<LunaVorax_mini>
And therefore planned for 2012 ?
<wpwrak>
LunaVorax_mini: i think the ya will be planned as soon as someone provides funding :)
<LunaVorax_mini>
How much do you need ?
<kyak>
(in most cases, this question is followed by money ;)
<LunaVorax_mini>
haha
<wpwrak>
LunaVorax_mini: i guess about 500 kUSD may be sufficient. my lowest estimate would be around 300 kUSD, but that's probably too low
<LunaVorax_mini>
Hum ok
<LunaVorax_mini>
You need 1000 fanboys like me then
<LunaVorax_mini>
:D
<wpwrak>
LunaVorax_mini: that would be development and a small (3 kunits) initial production run
<LunaVorax_mini>
Ok, I see
<wpwrak>
LunaVorax_mini: also assumes very few people on the payroll and them working with compensation close to subsistence level
<wpwrak>
in other words, the community needs to participate as well. otherwise R&D cost goes up quite a bit.
<LunaVorax_mini>
Ok I see
<LunaVorax_mini>
I think it's time to save for a donation
<LunaVorax_mini>
Count on me I'll do so asap
<wpwrak>
LunaVorax_mini: cool, thanks ! i don't know what wolfgang thinks of donations as a means of financing, but if it comes to that, any contribution would be welcome
<wpwrak>
LunaVorax_mini: btw, with community participation, i meant sharing the design work. we did part of this in the gta02-core project and it worked quite nicely for a while. the problem we had there was that we depended on openmoko.com to supply components. and this promise was never fulfilled.
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: hmm, if you want a ben-phone, you could just add a GSM module ...
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: i have one
<kristianpaul>
(GSM Module)
<kristianpaul>
but too big too muchs wires, is a sim548
<kristianpaul>
also the board dint router voice part..
<LunaVorax_mini>
wpwrak,
<kristianpaul>
anyway
<LunaVorax_mini>
wpwrak, in some way, donations is the only efficient way for me to contribute to what you are doing as my programming and electronic design knowledge are very limited for now
<LunaVorax_mini>
So far the only "usefull" thing I've done was to show the Ben to people at knowledge and impress them about "how small it is" ;)
<LunaVorax_mini>
Funny to see that in some people's head "computer" = "big"
<LunaVorax_mini>
I may be na
<LunaVorax_mini>
naive but
<LunaVorax_mini>
Isn't the FSF interested about giving you some fund ?
<LunaVorax_mini>
Supposing that the FSF have funds to give, I don't know how they work exactly
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: wich GSM Module you recomend? :-)
<wpwrak>
LunaVorax_mini: hmm, i don't think the FSF sponsors projects directly
<LunaVorax_mini>
Ok wpwrak
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: if you want to go fancy, there's a company called "option" that make nice little UMTS modules. but it may be hard to get documentation.
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: otherwise, lemme dig ...
<dvdk>
btw anybody knows the patent status of AC3?  this is utilized in mplayer, as an audio-filter (not codec) (getting linker errors if I disable it).
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: there are also other, slightly larger models, in the same family
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: note the large quantity of documentation at the bottom of the page :)
<kristianpaul>
wow is amll
<kristianpaul>
small*
<kristianpaul>
(doc) oh yes
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: if you dig a little in gta02-core, you'll also find untested schematics and there should be a footprint for the ge864 somewhere as well
<wpwrak>
here it is: svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/gta02-core/ge864/ge864.fpd
<wpwrak>
also completely untested, of course ;-)
<kristianpaul>
:/
<kristianpaul>
anyway, may be the 3g/edge/gsm part will be just enought
<qwebirc81180>
hi guys, i wonder if there is the ability of booting the ben nn by 'alarm'. (bios-clock?) so the device could p.e. boot every day @ 05:00 and wake me up by music :D
<qwebirc81180>
would be great for using as pda
<qwebirc81180>
reminders are appliance #1 for pda's
<wpwrak>
qwebirc81180: good question :) i don't know if the hardware and the kernel support it, but i can at least not find anything quickly that would indicate it's impossible
<wpwrak>
qwebirc81180: i.e., you may want to experiment a bit :)
<qwebirc81180>
the bad is: I'm an advanced user, able to start a compile-run, but unable to really change sourcecode :\
<wpwrak>
(designed for a different architecture, but it should also work on the ben)
<qwebirc81180>
but in my opinion, this could massively improve the useability of the ben nn
<wpwrak>
qwebirc81180: change "unable" to "not yet able" ;-)
<qwebirc81180>
hehe, freerunner-code on ben?? :D
<wpwrak>
it's all linux ;-)
<qwebirc81180>
wpwrak: right ;) but i'm not sure if it's a good idea to start learning programming with age 53 ;)
<qwebirc81180>
as for linux: I'm with it since 0.99pl6 (SLS-Linux) :D
<qwebirc81180>
but only as user and 'make'er ;)
<qwebirc81180>
oh, btw, I should use my 'real' nick ;)
<Fusin>
:P
<Fusin>
is there a RTC in Ben, or does it use only software clocks?
<viric>
there is
<LunaVorax_mini>
Hum, reading the Guo Nanonote page. Are you really sure that it'll have the same design in 5years ?
<LunaVorax_mini>
Early question may be a stupid question :)
<Fusin>
.
<wpwrak>
Fusin: (53) bah, that's no age ;-) and the hardest part of doing anything is convincing yourself that you can do it ...
<Fusin>
my problem is: i already run for following evolution in hard and software technology
<wpwrak>
LunaVorax_mini: i wouldn't consider anything beyond a ya as anything than a small quantity of vapour released in the hard vacuum of outer space ;-)
<Fusin>
how could i learn to master them?
<wpwrak>
Fusin: mastery take s a while :) start small. pick objectives that are a little beyond your knowledge, so that they don't overwhelm you but still give you something new.
<Fusin>
ben is new and freerunner too (linux outside big boxes is really exiting)
<Fusin>
altough to tell the truth: for daily use i just ordered an android Phone and an android pad :D
<Fusin>
for the 'real' use
<Fusin>
ben and freerunner are atm toys to play with
<Fusin>
and for showing collegues what linux can do
<wpwrak>
Fusin: yeah. FR is getting a bit long in its teeth, too. well, same thing for the ben. there are many incremental improvements that could/should be made.
<viric>
Fusin: what *linux* can do? With an Android you can show what it can do too
<Fusin>
right, but android is more a gui than the os itself
<viric>
Fusin: and linux is only the kernel
<Fusin>
right
<viric>
:)
<viric>
Maybe something more like 'what companies + volunteers  publishing free software and hardware' can do
<Fusin>
not enough evangelists ;)
<mstevens>
Fusin: I want to like android but I can't get on with it
<Fusin>
I don't like it, I just want to use it, because it works and does what it's suposed to do. no more no less
<Fusin>
and it's not owned by gates nor jobs ;)
<Fusin>
ping
<wpwrak>
Fusin: (ping) you need to specify the destination address :)
<Fusin>
without destination we accept ALL pongs ;)
<wpwrak>
Fusin: still, where do you send the ping packet ? :)