<whitequark>
you can hate on android all you want, but they really got their shit together in the last few releases and made a great OS
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<wpwrak>
colorful :)
<wpwrak>
i'd go right to cyanogenmod, though. the only real chance for long-term updates.
<whitequark>
sure, for me android pretty much equates with CM or replicant :)
<whitequark>
nexuses got a decent upgrade schedule, but CM still beats them on everything
<whitequark>
... except proprietary lock-in
<wpwrak>
damn. not having that wuold really suck ;-)
<whitequark>
yeah. I mean, NSA should have all my data too, right?!
<whitequark>
heard of latest Snowden reveal? NSA tapped into Google's privately *owned* fiber between their privately *owned* DCs without Google's knowledge
<whitequark>
bet they're pissed off now
<wpwrak>
they shouldn't be pissed off. they should build data centers elsewhere. actually, they've been doing this for a while already ...
<whitequark>
I doubt they could stop building datacenters in US, though
<whitequark>
hm.
<whitequark>
or maybe they can? what's worse, the stick of losing your customer's data or the carrot of having response time under 100ms?
<roh>
they're talking about crypting more stuff now
<wpwrak>
they can build the everywhere, then choose a date replication algorithm that keeps non-US things outside the US
<roh>
right direction...but only partially helpful tho ;)
<roh>
in the end... its a us company
<roh>
but hey.. multinational companies often move if pissed off enough
<whitequark>
roh: yeah, it's been for a while
<whitequark>
wpwrak: I think that's pretty much what amazon does
<whitequark>
guess that's we'll see soon
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<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: kewl, you already passed 5k and do the design work
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: btw, the funding page is nicely done. a bit of pleasant visuals goes a long way :) plus, you have good information there, too
<DocScrutinizer05>
thanks
<DocScrutinizer05>
sebastian's work
<DocScrutinizer05>
he even couldn't resist to integrate an easter egg
<DocScrutinizer05>
wich i'll use if some user asks for pink ponies again
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<wpwrak>
;-))
<cde>
DocScrutinizer05: easter egg?
<DocScrutinizer05>
ponies
<wpwrak>
pink easter ponies
<DocScrutinizer05>
the angry blue one is scary
<DocScrutinizer05>
the magic one
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, I think they all are magic
<cde>
I don't follow. do you have a link?
<DocScrutinizer05>
number 8
<DocScrutinizer05>
#ponies
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, it's called the shadowbolt
<DocScrutinizer05>
particularly tell me how you get a blob-free hardmac running, for PSM without hogging AÜE CPU
<cde>
PCI/PCIe don't actually require a blob, the latency of the bus is low enough
<DocScrutinizer05>
APE*
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, embedded usually has no PCI/PCIe
<cde>
correct
<DocScrutinizer05>
and latency of a CPU in zero-clock mode is low, but not THAT low
<cde>
also correct
<DocScrutinizer05>
tbh I prefer a blob to a firmware in some fused flashrom inside the WLAN chip
<DocScrutinizer05>
at least I can update the blob any time
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I can RE it, if I can
<cde>
well the flash can also be updated; unless you meant an actual rom
<DocScrutinizer05>
THAT however usually requires WINDOWS blobs apps
<DocScrutinizer05>
since chip manuf doesn't bother to ship a FOSS linux tool to do such update
<DocScrutinizer05>
so the FW blob you load in chip init time is the clearly better alternative
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/ in / on
<qi-bot>
DocScrutinizer05 meant: "so the FW blob you load on chip init time is the clearly better alternative"
<cde>
ok
<DocScrutinizer05>
and the heck I have no problems whatsoever with a blob of DATA on my linux system, fsck GNU and RMS
<DocScrutinizer05>
the assumption that such *data* was a *program* relevant for GNU is erratic anyway
<cde>
so you are willing to surrender your freedom for a little bit of convenience?
<DocScrutinizer05>
was it this very cahnnel or another one where I stated just today: "why is a closed source program allowed when it runs in user land on a GNU linux system, but _not_ allowed when I offload it to a coprocessor located on a peropheral chip?"
<DocScrutinizer05>
au contraire, cde. I *insist* in my freedom to use and tamper with such blobs
<cde>
that's good
<cde>
but you shouldn't give your moneys to companies that sell you hw with blobs
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, I can as well keep my money and eat it
<DocScrutinizer05>
but it's not as tasty
<DocScrutinizer05>
IOW: there is no choice
<cde>
there is a choice. for example you can choose not to buy Apple hardware
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, I can as well keep my money and eat it
<DocScrutinizer05>
oh, I already said that
<cde>
also, you can choose not to buy on Amazon to protest their DRM policies
<DocScrutinizer05>
I can also choose to not breathe anymore
<cde>
yes. to protest the fact that the universe is not free software
<DocScrutinizer05>
don't tell me about my choices to NOT do something
<DocScrutinizer05>
since that's a) obvious and trivial, and b) leading nowhere
<cde>
correct
<DocScrutinizer05>
tell me which choice I have for a WLAN chip that can do hardmac and still offers packet injection, firmware update, and monitor mode
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd actually be happy when you come up with *any* other choice than "not do it"
<DocScrutinizer05>
but honestly, I'm not too interested in perpetuating the debate with that other guy as of yesterday
<DocScrutinizer05>
it ended in him revoking his donation since Neo900 wasn't able to offer the WLAN pink ponies he hoped for
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I wasted ~90min on that
<DocScrutinizer05>
so on the end he asked "tell me is the wlan chip sharing RAM with the CPU"
<DocScrutinizer05>
then he revoked his donation after we told him that it#s connected via SPI
<DocScrutinizer05>
futile effort to discuss with those zealots
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's not like we are averse against freedom and FOSS, you know ;-)
<cde>
yes. we also both like ponies, but in moderate amounts
<DocScrutinizer05>
just we need a hardmac chip (aka 'cpu on chip, so main CPU can sleep and chip handles PSM')
<DocScrutinizer05>
which rules out all softmak (driver runs on APE CPU) solutions
<DocScrutinizer05>
softmac even
<cde>
afaik all USB-based solutions are softmac due to the high latency of the bus. unfortunately you can't wake up the CPU with USB
<DocScrutinizer05>
ideally we find a chip that can do both hardmac and softmac - iirc the prism54 been such a critter
<DocScrutinizer05>
err, that would rather speak for hardmac
<cde>
yes, that's what I meant. the MAC runs on the stick
<DocScrutinizer05>
right
<cde>
a way to do what you need is to identify a GPIO out of the AR9271 chip that could be used to wake the CPU which would then proceed with the transfer over USB
<DocScrutinizer05>
though via USB you can control the RF lowlevel, the bandwidth is sufficient and the CPU usually strong enough (heck it even can do SDR)
<DocScrutinizer05>
USB sticks usually are used on laptops and the like, where CPU never sleeps
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I think for softmac drivers it's not relevant which interface is used to attach the WLAN radio
<DocScrutinizer05>
the prism54 softmac worked fro USB dongles
<DocScrutinizer05>
for*
<DocScrutinizer05>
it had a FOSS softmac, a blob hardmac firmware, and they worked on a FOSS hardmac firmware
<DocScrutinizer05>
the latter never got finished afaik
<DocScrutinizer05>
too many mysteries inside the chip
<cde>
yes that is sad
<cde>
lekernel did in fact some amazing work on it
<lekernel>
and then found out about FPGAs
<lekernel>
:)
<lekernel>
we had a bunch of things working nevertheless. UART, GPIO, USB, PCI, some of the crypto acceleration, and most of the transceiver
<DocScrutinizer05>
mandatory features for WLAN: PSM/low-power_always-on, 54Mb, independant operation (no constant support from main CPU), monitor mode. Almost mandatory: packet injection. Nice to have: no blobs
<DocScrutinizer05>
if any of the hardcore freedom lovers wants us to change those priorities, then they need to come up with a suggestion how to handle that in a way so the other 99.9% of users are also satisfied
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh I forgot: small package
<DocScrutinizer05>
and a useful hw interface
<DocScrutinizer05>
and full documentation aka available drivers in linux
<DocScrutinizer05>
FOSS drivers
<DocScrutinizer05>
we're appreciating all help we can get on identifying the right chip for us
<DocScrutinizer05>
if it then is also sourcable in small quatities, all the better (euphemism!)
<DocScrutinizer05>
we'll happily use any chip you manage to come up with, as long as it satisfies the above requirements
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<whitequark>
hey folks, do you possibly know what *module* one could use for 6lowpan?
<whitequark>
not on-chip RF.
<mth>
DocScrutinizer05: in the GCW Zero is a Realtek 8188CUS; it's far from perfect but it is usable
<mth>
there is a mainline kernel driver, but that doesn't actually work when we test it (handshaking with AP gets stuck)
<DocScrutinizer05>
o.O
<mth>
there is a driver from Realtek itself that works, but is huge and ugly code
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh
<mth>
it has a blob in the wifi chip itself, but everything that runs on the CPU is open source
<mth>
apparently the 8188CUS is no longer available, but the 8188EUS is and it's pretty similar
<mth>
I noticed in his github that Larry Finger is cleaning up the driver code for the EUS
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, I'm sure we had that one on our radar
<mth>
but I don't have the EUS hardware yet, so I can't test it
<DocScrutinizer05>
oops, nope, W2CBW003 8686
<DocScrutinizer05>
W2CBW0015 8787
<DocScrutinizer05>
TiWi 5/6/7/8
<DocScrutinizer05>
jorJin
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'll have a look into the realtek 8188
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* DocScrutinizer05
wonders if we should set up a wiki page based on the feasibility study
<DocScrutinizer05>
you're aware of the feasibility study, are you?
<roh>
doesnt exist atheros usb chipsets are as near as it gets
<roh>
most important: n support. in front of anything else on wifi.
<roh>
loads of people disable b/g support nowadays and i've seen routers delivered that way in the stock firmware
<mth>
I hadn't seen that study yet
<roh>
me neither.. nice work
<roh>
my best guess would be ar9170 or something near that series
<roh>
but i havent checked module avail or how big these are
<roh>
anyhow.. whichever vendor makes the race.. there needs to be some way to flash/ramload that hardmac to be able to update its firmware (closed or not) and a proper process to get these. i got quite some devices around which basically arent useable anymore due to 'too old wifi'
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<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: what's PSM ?
<cde>
indeed, what's PSM?
<roh>
*sigh* .. it seems the only hardmac i find which does 'proper' ap mode now is ar6kl
<roh>
no monitor mode tho
<wpwrak>
i've received some somewhat enigmatic hints that it may be possible to adapt the brcm80211 driver also for the BCM43362. this would be a very embedded-friendly chip (apart from its current closedness)
<cde>
what's wrong with ath9k? seems the most foss friendly wifi
<wpwrak>
it has binary-only firmware, potentially with redistribution issues. but i guess these could be worked around. with modules available.
<cde>
the feasibility study is cool but it doesn't change the core problem which is the lack of open-source baseband
<wpwrak>
mth: and yes, the Realtek is an old but apparently viable alternative. olimex use it, too.
<wpwrak>
whitequark: why do you need a module ? it's easy enough to build with chips
<whitequark>
wpwrak: let's say a novice in electronics wants to build one
<whitequark>
well, a system on top of one
<whitequark>
easy enough for you with how much decades of experience? three? :)
<roh>
cde: softmac, not intended for embedded
<wpwrak>
whitequark: does the result pass certifications ? or is it sufficient if it just works ?
<whitequark>
just works
<roh>
atleast not for stuff such low-power
<cde>
roh: not the wifi, the gsm/umts part (option)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: PowerSavingMode
<cde>
it's orders of magnitude more complex
<wpwrak>
whitequark: then he could just copy any of my rf230 designs. there are now three tested ones to choose from: atben, atusb, and antorcha (function tested but rf performance not quantified). anelok probably works, too.
<wpwrak>
whitequark: if he really really doesn't want to touch chips, he could find a GPIO-programmable uSD slot and toss in an atben.
<dos1>
[19:44] <cde> the feasibility study is cool but it doesn't change the core problem which is the lack of open-source baseband
<cde>
thanks DocScrutinizer05
<dos1>
and that problem will persist for very long time
<cde>
unless we tackle it
<dos1>
as it's pretty impossible to do properly and legally
<cde>
it is actually. use a faraday cage
<dos1>
unless you don't want to use it :P
<cde>
yes true
<wpwrak>
dos1: doing it properly alone would be a challenge. legally, well, you could probably always sell it as "lab equipment" :)
<wpwrak>
else, pretend its purpose it to spy on friends. that seems to be a good enough excuse
<DocScrutinizer05>
good luck with UMTS, even more you'll need it with LTE
<DocScrutinizer05>
in ST-E a team of ~500 worked for ~1 year to make the UMTS<E stack work so that we could do first tests in carrier networks, and even then a 10min without breakdown of the connection were a huge success
<cde>
yep. I know someone who used to work there
<cde>
they sold everything to Broadcom, very sad
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<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: 500!!!
<whitequark>
fuck.
<whitequark>
did you rewrite the damn thing from scratch?
<DocScrutinizer05>
and compared to LTE the CMU200 you need to check what your homegrown GSM stack does OTA is just the spare money
<wpwrak>
making something work can sometimes take many times the effort of doing it from scratch ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
dunno what you refer to, but ST baked the chip and ST & Ericsson built the UMTS and LTE radio stack from scratch and made it work
<DocScrutinizer05>
google for NovaThor
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: I thought vendors just pull through the decades-old code
<wpwrak>
seems that they were smarter than to do that :)
<larsc>
until things collapse over them
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually we didn't re-use the code of the previous chip generation
<DocScrutinizer05>
we peaked a lot
<DocScrutinizer05>
peeked
<wpwrak>
peeked ?
<wpwrak>
ah :)
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<wpwrak>
that's usually the most efficient approach
<wpwrak>
do it your way but let existing proven code help you to find it
<larsc>
but sometimes it's just NIH
<DocScrutinizer05>
sometimes, yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
when ST contributed ugly code that been replaced by other ugly code from Ericsson ;-P
<cde>
DocScrutinizer05, NovaThor uses a modem from renesas right? (previously nokia)
<cde>
afaik their new lte stuff was only used by Samsung
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway, I see the probability to see a community-driven FOSS LTE stack any time soon to be == 0.000000000000001%/year
<cde>
it was to be used in the new LTE NovaThor which sadly never came to be
<cde>
well we have openlte which is already somewhat advanced
<DocScrutinizer05>
the modem is from ST
<DocScrutinizer05>
ST micro
<DocScrutinizer05>
and customers were all the big names
<DocScrutinizer05>
even Nokia, before they canceled that
<cde>
DocScrutinizer05, are you talking about samsung? they used ST-E chips in a couple of phones
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm talking about ST-E NovaThor chip
<cde>
I meant the customers
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, Samsung used them
<DocScrutinizer05>
rim, LG, dunno whom
<DocScrutinizer05>
nokia
<cde>
but they failed, ultimately. now Qualcomm has all the market
<DocScrutinizer05>
possible
<DocScrutinizer05>
i left there a year ago
<DocScrutinizer05>
and probably for a reason
<cde>
oh, you worked at ST-E? very cool! were you at the Rennes site?
<DocScrutinizer05>
Nuernberg
<DocScrutinizer05>
datacom
<cde>
I see. well you were right to leave I guess. did you also work on the baseband?
<DocScrutinizer05>
nope, datacom
<DocScrutinizer05>
Nuernberg radio stack been 2 floors below my desk
<DocScrutinizer05>
I had the joy to deal with all the interfaces
<DocScrutinizer05>
HSI, UART, you name it
<DocScrutinizer05>
shared RAM :-o
<DocScrutinizer05>
but
<DocScrutinizer05>
but Nuernberg had only a part of the radio stack team
<DocScrutinizer05>
and part of the chip makers
<cde>
btw fun fact: NovaThor uses the plan9 filesystem :)
<larsc>
the mic is probably in there because it was on the pcb anyway
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<DocScrutinizer05>
honestly you'd need more than a internet connection to send out spam
<DocScrutinizer05>
doesn't sound plausible to me
<dos1>
replace sending spam with any other malware activity
<DocScrutinizer05>
why should you use a hijacked internet via open AP, when all you get is... internet. Which is dirt cheap anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's about abusing the IT infra, thus about infecting PCs
<DocScrutinizer05>
you possibly could do that better from inside a WLAN rather than from outside, but if that really accounts for the expense and effort of that approach
<DocScrutinizer05>
sounds like a hoax to me
<dos1>
possibly
<dos1>
but still, neat idea
<dos1>
and scary
<dos1>
if you'd have to carefully check what sits in every electric device you own to just feel safe, that certainly wouldn't be fun
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think hijacked routermodems are waaaay more scary
<DocScrutinizer05>
and we seen that only a month ago
<dos1>
:nod:
<DocScrutinizer05>
with a lot of D-Link
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd get really scared when the blackhats manage to hijack the DSL-multiplexers
<DocScrutinizer05>
or the real routers, like cisco
<DocScrutinizer05>
but I guess NSA would kick them off their lawn in a millisecond
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<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: they do
<whitequark>
for a long time
<DocScrutinizer05>
I bet on that
<DocScrutinizer05>
particularly in china et al
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
was it micro-VAX where they actually implemented hw-backdoor?
<whitequark>
someone made a botnet of several 100k's of vulnerable modems (think admin/admin) and portscanned /0
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehehehe
<DocScrutinizer05>
which brand/make?
<whitequark>
various
<whitequark>
I think they hijacked an existing botnet with a vulnerability
<whitequark>
read the paper, it's very fascinating
<DocScrutinizer05>
indeed
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<DocScrutinizer05>
HEHE >>We would also like to mention that building and running a gigantic botnet and then watching it as it scans nothing less than the whole Internet at rates of billions of IPs per hour over and over again is really as much fun as it sounds like.<<
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