<wpwrak>
i think the main purpose of systemd is to annoy anyone who has reached adulthood
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: it's true though that traditional init systems are unaware of dynamic environments
<whitequark>
e.g. ones where interfaces, devices and so on come and go, rather than having a single static configuration
<DocScrutinizer05>
ohwell
<DocScrutinizer05>
afaik that's what udev is made for
<whitequark>
udev is unaware of desktop though
<DocScrutinizer05>
desktop?
<whitequark>
desktop.
<DocScrutinizer05>
please don't tell me systemd is entangled with desktop
<whitequark>
this is the whole point of its creation, providing a more convenient interface to the DE
<DocScrutinizer05>
huh?
<whitequark>
similarly to e.g. networkmanager
<DocScrutinizer05>
W? T? F?!
<whitequark>
and pulseaudio and ...
<whitequark>
and while the solution is quite sub-par, the problems exist
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't see *any* desktop interface for PissAudio
<whitequark>
according to poettering, one of the goals for PA is to make audio subsystem aware of desktop session
<whitequark>
e.g. in Windows and OSX you wouldn't hear anything that is not produced by the currently running desktop session
<whitequark>
with bare ALSA you would
<DocScrutinizer05>
and for the life of mine I can't think of a valid usecase where user/desktop had to mess around with system-init
<whitequark>
starting services on-demand
<DocScrutinizer05>
what's wrong with sudo ifup ?
<whitequark>
e.g. the whole dbus activation business was created for that, and like udev and dbus itself (apparently) it's now folded into systemd
<whitequark>
wat?
<whitequark>
do you seriously suggest me to go to the console in order to make an USB modem work?
<DocScrutinizer05>
errr
<whitequark>
or do you suggest for whatever component responsible to go scrape the output of an utility which was never designed for that job?
<DocScrutinizer05>
fsck dat modem. I plug it in, udev takes care, network manager does the rest
<whitequark>
exactly
<DocScrutinizer05>
how's that related to sysinit?
<whitequark>
as I understand it, the idea is to run NM (for example) whenever a dbus request for it arrives
<DocScrutinizer05>
and no, you of course can create a .desktop file and click on the icon to execute whatever you like
<whitequark>
to get faster startup time
<whitequark>
*I* am not going to bother with creating anything
<whitequark>
it must just work.
<DocScrutinizer05>
poettering bullshit as usual
<whitequark>
a system that requires manual intervention to perform most basic possible tasks should just die
<whitequark>
it's not fucking 1995
<DocScrutinizer05>
right! kill poettering, kill all his monsters he created
<DocScrutinizer05>
when it doesn't need fucking "manual intervention" then pretty please don't make sysinit "desktop aware" since wtf is desktop meant/needed for, if not for "manual intervention"
<whitequark>
the desktop is meant for solving problems, not creating them
<whitequark>
and if I have to do *anything* to make basic hardware work, that's creating a fucking huge problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
exactly, so tell poettering to leave it alone
<whitequark>
a shout-out to CUPS, which suffers from similar idiocy
<DocScrutinizer05>
huh?
<whitequark>
although it seemed to get marginally better recently
<whitequark>
well, I don't know about you, but I don't think I ever managed to set up a printer with CUPS in shorter than ten minutes
<whitequark>
and it should take 0.
<whitequark>
and scanners just don't work *shrug*
<DocScrutinizer05>
so that's sysinit's fault now?
<whitequark>
that's a fault of linux on desktop in general
<whitequark>
if changing sysinit fixes that, then sysinit should be changed
<DocScrutinizer05>
I can't recall doing *any* config for 4 out of my last 5 printer-equipped systems I installed
<whitequark>
then you're lucky
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think we should change color of CPU ceramic, since when it changes that we for sure should do it
<whitequark>
last time I tried it, the printer in our office simply refused to do anything except interpreting binary input as text and promptly printing hundreds of pages of garbage
<whitequark>
never solved it
<DocScrutinizer05>
*shrug*
<DocScrutinizer05>
blame your crappy distro!
<whitequark>
oh fuck off
<whitequark>
my point is, init is no sacred cow. if changing it somehow actually makes desktop better, then it can and should be changed
<whitequark>
systemd doesn't seem like the solution to me, though
<DocScrutinizer05>
I really don't want a system that has a monster of sysinit that takes care of printer driver installation for all arbitrary printers hotplugged any time during system lifetime, possibly informing user on desktop about "systemd is now downloading printer driver for your fsckMe-piss-ink from internet, stay tuned and praise poettering!"
<DocScrutinizer05>
my point is sysinit is damn unrelated to desktop,, and for sure better stays like that
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<DocScrutinizer05>
as unrelated to desktop as my trousers are unrelated to the type of motor oil my car engine needs
<whitequark>
is there a divine rule "sysinit shalt not ever be related to desktop"?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, that's called basic logic
<whitequark>
a DE is something that ultimately controls *everything* happening on the machine
<DocScrutinizer05>
the two aare as unrelated as the display is unrelated to the PSU fan
<whitequark>
pretty damn logical that it should control service invocation
<DocScrutinizer05>
WTF?? get your stuff sorted! [2014-05-09 Fri 00:15:56] <whitequark> and if I have to do *anything* to make basic hardware work, that's creating a fucking huge problem
<whitequark>
on a desktop (or tablet) the kernel and all the crap around it is a mere UI support library
<DocScrutinizer05>
omg
<DocScrutinizer05>
I seem to recall why I parted here
<DocScrutinizer05>
you now have 3 statements that are 180° opposite to each other, seems not even possible in usual 3-dimensional continuum. 1) sysinit shall take care about lowlevel stuff, I don't want to hear about any of that 2) everything down to systeminit is controlled by desktop and we need generic means to do so, since usual windows and graphic toolkits don't suffice for that, so we need to link desktop into kernel 3) kernel does nothing
<DocScrutinizer05>
useful at all. On desktop engines it supports desktop, on all other systems you can forget about kernel since no desktop to support
<whitequark>
I didn't say anything at all about non-desktop systems, and systemd shouldn't ever touch them at all
<whitequark>
otherwise your summary is correct
<whitequark>
ok, no, almost correct
<whitequark>
I didn't say "link desktop into kernel", I did say "we need to add whatever interfaces desktop wants"
<DocScrutinizer05>
please go for M$-windows or even FF-OS
<whitequark>
nope and nope.
<DocScrutinizer05>
unix is a proper OS, not a glorified GUI
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<whitequark>
and what is a "proper OS" ?
<whitequark>
a proper desktop or touch-device OS *is* a GUI (and something to run it)