<shevy>
though there are more weird things happening ... hmm *** glibc detected *** dmesg: double free or corruption (!prev): 0x082a8038 ***
<JMcAfreak>
having fun?
<shevy>
:(
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<JMcAfreak>
yeah, figures. I hate it when my computer does that kind of crap to me
<shevy>
I am trying fsck.ext4 right now
<aedorn>
with it mounted?
<shevy>
FILE SYSTEM WAS MODIFIED REBOOT LINUX
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<reppard>
yeah probably dont want to fsck with the drive mounted
<JMcAfreak>
^
<JMcAfreak>
trust me, that would be a genuine Bad Idea.
<aedorn>
heh, too late now though.. go reboot and cross your fingers. You might be doing some fdisk fun though
<JMcAfreak>
I have screwed over so many OSes
<shevy>
aedorn hmm no, a reboot as-is would fail, mount etc.. is broken
<JMcAfreak>
... and I just noticed my pants are splitting
<shevy>
what confuses me is that busybox does not react :(
<JMcAfreak>
:(
<shevy>
alright, the moment of truth has arrived... see you either soon, or tomorrow, or perhaps even later in case my machine also has a hardware defect ;)
<reppard>
i've been programming ruby for a little while now but learned pretty much everything with ebooks or online documentation
<JMcAfreak>
reppard: I was going to say... Should've gotten the MineCraft one a long time ago
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<reppard>
nice to have a physical copy though
<reppard>
JMcAfreak: i am patiently waiting for Minecraft Pi
<JMcAfreak>
ah
<aedorn>
oh, I see shevy finally rebooted.. heh
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<havenn>
Anyone know a better, simpler way (other than obviously needed refactoring >.>) to get latest ruby version urls? https://gist.github.com/4395461
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<havenn>
Was thinking of setting up an API that reports urls for the latest versions of Ruby.
<lupine>
what does rvm do?
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<havenn>
lupine: Manually update urls via pull request.
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<matip__>
is there a syntax to do something like a + (b || c), where a, b and c are strings?
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<havenn>
Note to OP, patch 1.9.3-p362 is out for Topic! :)
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<yankeefan04>
I am trying to change my directory order and add a new one. I use unshift and it seems like it is in the correct order, then i leave and it goes back. is there something i need to do it save the directory order?
<yfeldblum>
yankeefan04, what's a "directory order"?
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<yankeefan04>
yfeldblum, it's the order by which my computer searches for files
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<yfeldblum>
yankeefan04, is this using the command-line tool `find`? is this using something in ruby?
<cajone>
yankeefan04: what you explained seems like some form of AI O.S, why unshift, are you using a hash table?
<canton7>
I'm betting on $LOAD_PATH
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<yankeefan04>
I am just in terminal trying to have it use my new folder when searching
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<cajone>
yankeefan04:are you storing the the info in a hash?
<yfeldblum>
yankeefan04, show your code on pastie.org
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<yfeldblum>
canton7, :D
<cajone>
:D
<canton7>
ah yeah, spot on :)
<canton7>
one of the only times I use #unshift :P
<yankeefan04>
so what is the problem?
<yfeldblum>
yankeefan04, and how are you trying to search?
<yankeefan04>
I am trying to save it as a default
<yfeldblum>
yankeefan04, i don't know what that means
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<yankeefan04>
so its standard operation to look in the folder
<yfeldblum>
yankeefan04, what do you mean by "save"? and by "default"?
<yankeefan04>
i added the folder in the pastie.org link
<yankeefan04>
with unshift
<yankeefan04>
then when i quit terminal and try to load code from that folder it fails again
<yankeefan04>
always load error
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<yfeldblum>
yankeefan04, indeed, and that will always happen, because changing $: only sticks until the end of your IRB session (or the end of the ruby program you're running)
<yankeefan04>
ah
<cajone>
ok yankee: you can not reference a hash by the order it is stored in, try saving to an array and referencing by index ( after sorting the required search requirements)
<havenn>
yankeefan04: Even global variables don't persist beyond the proces
<havenn>
process***
<yankeefan04>
alright, thank you
<canton7>
yankeefan04, if you're looking to auto-include work-in-progress gems in your home dir, for example, see /etc/gemrc and http://docs.rubygems.org/read/chapter/11
<canton7>
specifically gempath
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<shevy2>
ah well
<shevy2>
in the end I reinstalled :\
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<shevy2>
but I know what I won't do again... have multiple copies of things like libuuid.so.1
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<rubyretard>
hi all, i am looking for a solution to take an output from reverse engineering (a directory), parse it into .txt and ADD into a MySQL DB, is this doable with Ruby?
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<canton7>
sure. mysql can be a slight pain on windows though :P but not too bad
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<rubyretard>
canton7: thanks, not WIn32, using Debian 6.0
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<shevy>
ok
<shevy>
which docs are better
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<shevy>
ruby docs or python docs
<aedorn>
shevy: ruby and I see you fixed your read only FS
<shevy>
aedorn I cowardly reinstalled hehehehe
<aedorn>
oh lol
<shevy>
though I tried to kill the wrong libuuid.so.1 and that *blk*.so too... but that alone didn't fix it, there still was some other error
<shevy>
but I think I know how to avoid this problem in the future, so that is ok
<shevy>
the only thing that I still don't understand is why busybox didn't work
<havenn>
shevy: Ruby has an ISO spec (draft is free) and Python doesn't. Dunno which is 'better'.
<shevy>
havenn hmm I mean more like, the quality of the documentation? I have not worked much at all with python, only looked superficially at the python docs
<shevy>
I admit that I never looked at the iso spec hehe
<havenn>
shevy: I think most people think you have to pay for the ISO spec, but if you search the draft is free. :)
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<havenn>
P.S., draft and final are identical :P
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<seanstickle>
The Ruby spec is quite a nice read.
<seanstickle>
I learned a lot of my Ruby programming by reading that
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<aedorn>
thing I don't like about Python syntax docs is you kind of need to know what you are looking for. If you know the function you want, then you can find it fairly easy.. if you're looking for "what can I use to get this result" it's quite a bit more difficult
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<erkules>
where is the best place/book? to get into ruby (having some perl-foo)?
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<shevy>
erkules pickaxe is ok
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<shevy>
if you know perl already though, the easiest may be to just write a few ruby scripts and read through some online resources
<ChrisBolton>
I need to pass a username, password and client name but I'm having trouble figuring out what methods are accessible to me.
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<rubyretard>
/quit
<rubyretard>
exit
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<aedorn>
hmm
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<mercwithamouth>
quick question...how would i go about accessing the hash, @data http://pastie.org/5591801
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<aedorn>
heh, I have no idea why I'm digging into this soap api
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<ChrisBolton>
aedorn: because you are awesome?
<RubyPanther>
ChrisBolton: I thought everybody used soap4r
<ChrisBolton>
RubyPanther: I was warned against it.
<RubyPanther>
I was always warned against using anything else lol
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<aedorn>
hmm, can't really test this but it looks like you just need to set the basic credentials and then do your operations
<ChrisBolton>
RubyPanther: I also kind of inherited it from another gem.
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<RubyPanther>
newfangled SOAP would be enough to get me gouging at my eyes
<ruzu>
soap makes me feel dirty
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<Noldorin>
does Rake have a standard way to change the path to which "rake install" installs?
<aedorn>
ChrisBolton: c = Savon.client(wsdl: "http://rmsws.yieldstar.com/rmsws/AppExchange?wsdl", basic_auth: ["testuser", "testpass"]) , then just call your operations as you need. I can't see anything else and that's what their tomcat server is asking for
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<aedorn>
so same thing really.. are you in control of this service?
<prettymuchbryce>
Okay lets all write a ruby program one line at a time. I'll start.
<prettymuchbryce>
class OneLineAtATime
<ChrisBolton>
No I am not.
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<mercwithamouth>
def initialize(options = {})
<mercwithamouth>
# wasn't i nice there?
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<aedorn>
ChrisBolton: only other thing is double checking you're allowed into that API and it actually is setup correctly on their side for it. You can get some pretty damn weird things happening with Tomcat
<prettymuchbryce>
if options["echo"] == true
<ChrisBolton>
Cool. I was hoping to avoid talking to them but looks like that's the direction I'll have to go.
<ChrisBolton>
Thank you for your help aedorn.
<aedorn>
well, not much help, but welcome. I still hate SOAP. =p
<ChrisBolton>
As do I.
<shevy>
hmm
<shevy>
are 730 "def foo" much for a project?
<shevy>
where foo of course is another method name each...
<mercwithamouth>
x.@data = fail of course.. @data = fail....not sure how to use it
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<aedorn>
why does everythinig dealing with real estate a pain in the ass? I don't get it.
<shevy>
prettymuchbryce hmm no in many different files
<shevy>
aedorn because there is a lot of money in dealing with these things
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<shevy>
money turns people into evil beings
<ChrisBolton>
aedorn: Seriously I left real estate development to begin web development and mostly it's bureaucracy .
<aedorn>
I helped a local company automate some appraisal forms a few months ago. I couldn't believe how much money they paid for a piece of software that just lets you fill in the form and print. Something like several thousand dollars every few months
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<aedorn>
automated the whole form for them for some pizza and beer. I work cheap
<prettymuchbryce>
whats the difference between .first and [0]
<mercwithamouth>
o_O
<aedorn>
semantics
<mercwithamouth>
aedorn: wtf...why does that work?! =P
<aedorn>
mercwithamouth: because it's an array that's returned
<mercwithamouth>
well i know about accessors but i couldn't find it anywhere in the Geocoders source code
<mercwithamouth>
also wouldn't cache_hit would be....first, no? thank you by the way...
<prettymuchbryce>
its an array of Geocoder::Result objects which have the accessor data
<mercwithamouth>
hrmm oops..works exactly like a damn array should
<mercwithamouth>
=P
<aedorn>
no, it's an array before it's a Geocoder object.. or more precisely, it's an Array of Geocoder objects
<mercwithamouth>
thanks guys...i got so caught up fighting the fact that i saw an instance variable. i was tryin @data.instance_variable_get and a lot of other things i won't mention =P
<aedorn>
sometimes seeing [#<Object>] doesn't compute into a single element array. Hmmm... I'm sure there's a term for this like change blindness
<mercwithamouth>
hmm this requires a journal entry
<reactormonk>
which predicate evals to true with Integer.is_a? Numeric ?
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<spyzer>
hello everyone
<spyzer>
may anyone please tell me what can be a good ruby resource or book which can tell me the internals of ruby like how are global variables maintained, what happens in case of threading and insights in ruby itself
<spyzer>
that will be a lot of help
<spyzer>
i mean i want to move ahead from how to code in ruby -> how to use ruby
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<prettymuchbryce>
spyzer I've heard good things about The Well-Grounded Rubyist.
<prettymuchbryce>
I got it for christmas, but I haven't dug it very much yet. It does cover threading and global variables.
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<reactormonk>
globals? Not in ruby imo
<prettymuchbryce>
dug into it* Sorry.
<prettymuchbryce>
reactormonk What makes you say that ?
<mercwithamouth>
aedorn: now i feel bad....looking at the source code AND documentation they let you know that an array is returned
<mercwithamouth>
which well so does the feedback in the console
<spyzer>
well yeah its not a global
<spyzer>
i agree because after all even that is a property of the main object
<aedorn>
mercwithamouth: yes, well, like I said .. it's because you don't perceive it. In your mind you think if it's only one result, then it should be just the result and not an array of a single object. In other words - it happens to everyone from time to time lol
<spyzer>
but the thing is i wish to know depths of ruby as in how memory management takes place
<prettymuchbryce>
spyzer I believe there is a garbage collector
<spyzer>
so i wish to know how it works
<prettymuchbryce>
prob mark and sweep or ref counting
<spyzer>
what is the logic behind its cycles
<spyzer>
and that's juts one thing
<prettymuchbryce>
"I want to know what makes you tick, girl" -spyzer to ruby
<aedorn>
spyzer: There's no book... and since there's multiple variants of a Ruby interpreter, there are multiple ways it's done
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<reactormonk>
prettymuchbryce, how would you use globals in ruby? I don't see much besides $VERBOSE and $DEBUG that are interesting - maybe $LOAD_PATH
<spyzer>
so in other words if say i have to profile my ruby app that would depend on which interpreter i use(assuming i have written the code which i wanted to write lol)
<aedorn>
spyzer: To a degree, yes
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<reactormonk>
prettymuchbryce, sure there is a GC ;-)
<aedorn>
The way Rubinius handles memory, and how MRI handles it is a bit different. Same with JRuby, IronRuby, Maglev, and so forth
<spyzer>
well then i shall reframe my question is there some best practrices ruby bok out there which can minimize my performance dpendency on interpreters
<prettymuchbryce>
reactor monk I guess it depends on how you structure your application. I guess you guys just use statics variables on a main class (@@) for a singleton-style variable. I'm not sure what the tradeoffs might be for doing one or the other.
<reactormonk>
spyzer, don't do premature optimization :>
<spyzer>
like if you follow some standard pattern then you are bund to get similar results across implementations of rubyvm
<spyzer>
?
<reactormonk>
prettymuchbryce, tab completion ftw
<aschmitz>
Quick question: I have a class named Book, and a module with several classes, including Book. Inside that module, I want to access the "outer" Book class, not the module's Book class. How can I do that?
<reactormonk>
prettymuchbryce, imho the only singleton stuff you should have is somewhere in the main
<reactormonk>
aschmitz, ::Book
<aschmitz>
reactormonk: Thanks!
<spyzer>
reactormonk, yeah well you can say i am preparing for interview :P
<reactormonk>
aschmitz, I assume you see the logic behind the syntax
<spyzer>
so i need to know what will happen to my code when i execute it
<aschmitz>
reactormonk: Yeah, it makes sense. Wouldn't have guessed it, but it makes sense.
<aedorn>
spyzer: Not really... plenty of people have benchmarked all the implementations and some things you actually DO with it are the same, and some are wildly different.
<prettymuchbryce>
reactormonk I don't think you're too far off base there. Do you consider CONSTS singletons ? I like to use those frequently in many different classes.
<reactormonk>
prettymuchbryce, that's what CONSTANTS are for
<reactormonk>
prettymuchbryce, and I look at it in terms of dataflow - if there is no flow of data through globals, they're fine. Just pay attention that it is possible to overwrite them if needed, which is not possible in Ruby.
<spyzer>
well then i might have to backstep more and ask which is the best resource out there to learn ruby in its entirety be it a book or a website that teaches me ruby in the ruby way
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<reactormonk>
prettymuchbryce, activerecord used (may still use) a singleton for the connection - which kills any possibility of using more than one data source.
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<aedorn>
spyzer: Eloquent Ruby then Metaprogramming Ruby if you want to go the book route from psuedo-beginner to more advanced
<spyzer>
thank you :)
<prettymuchbryce>
reactormonk Yes you have to be careful in a big project such at that of course.
<reactormonk>
prettymuchbryce, and I'm not sure ruby scales
<aedorn>
followed by Practical Object-Oriented Design in Ruby for some organization theory
<prettymuchbryce>
reactormonk Define scaling :P
<reactormonk>
prettymuchbryce, but I'm sure you know the term technical dept, so feel free to apply your measures
<reactormonk>
prettymuchbryce, > 100k lines
<prettymuchbryce>
reactormonk technical debt. yep I know it well.
<prettymuchbryce>
reactormonk If you don't like ruby for big applications, what do you like? Java?
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<reactormonk>
prettymuchbryce, the only big application I worked for so far was rails, rather well organized, just the cucumber keywords were out of bounds.
<egman>
#mongo
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<reactormonk>
prettymuchbryce, I have to say I'm kind of intrigued by scala. Might just be a fanboy issue, though :-)
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<prettymuchbryce>
reactormonk Well I think rails can scale, but like every framework it has it's downsides. Anyway. This debate has been had many times by people smarter than me.
<prettymuchbryce>
reactormonk I like rails, but I also dislike it sometimes. It's fast. Thats it's main advantage.
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<reactormonk>
prettymuchbryce, fast? We had the issue of it being too slow.
<prettymuchbryce>
Fast to develop in. Not performance-wise. :P
<reactormonk>
^^
<reactormonk>
Can't say, it's all I've ever used.
<prettymuchbryce>
In this industry speed is important.
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<aedorn>
I'm glad I don't have to worry about performance, only development time
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<prettymuchbryce>
I worked with a Java Tomcat server. It was great. Scalable, customizable, but it seemed like it took a long time for the engineers to get stuff done.
<reactormonk>
Produce lemming after lemming?
<prettymuchbryce>
I wish I had to worry about performance. None of my pet projects seem to get a million views. So when that happens it will be a good day, not a bad one. :P
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<spyzer>
prettymuchbryce, lol
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<xybre>
So, I have a class that needs to compare against strings, or symbols and its optional whether the comparison should be case sensitive. About half the time it would be, and half the time it wouldn't be.
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<xybre>
I'm trying to think of a good method API for that.
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<xybre>
I've used = for normal object state equality and === for case sensetive matches across different types.
<xybre>
So I still need a case insensitive variant.
<xybre>
Just brainstorming here.
<prettymuchbryce>
Why not just convert both to lower case to check for case insensitivity ?
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<xybre>
Oh I know how to do it, I am just trying to think of a nice way of defining the method API for it.
<prettymuchbryce>
Oh i see. Sorry I misunderstood your question.
<xybre>
Like `object ==== "string"` if that even works.. its way too similar to the other = comparisons.
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<aedorn>
why not =~ and ==? =~ is almost like saying "approximately equates to" and == is more "definitive"
<xybre>
I was thinking `object.isometric? 'string'` but that might be weird to inject something like that.
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<xybre>
I was considering =~ but I'm concerned about clobbering the regex comparisons.
<xybre>
Hmm.
<xybre>
I could overload it with strings being case insensetive.. and regexes treated normal..
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* xybre
feels like that might violent the principal of least surprise though
<xybre>
er
<xybre>
violate^
<aedorn>
oh, yeah if you can do regex matching then no, don't do that
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<prettymuchbryce>
Okay i figured it out
<prettymuchbryce>
create a file named Gemfile in the directory
<prettymuchbryce>
then run bundle exec rackup
<prettymuchbryce>
put gem 'sinatra-base' in the file
<prettymuchbryce>
I do think there might be an issue with your hash though. I think in some ruby versions using colons like that is okay and some its not. I'm not totally sure.
<ecksit>
odd.
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<ecksit>
awesome work though! thanks.
<prettymuchbryce>
The reason is "Not every library has a strict mapping between the name of the gem and the name of the file you need to require."
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<prettymuchbryce>
I don't know.
<prettymuchbryce>
I think perhaps it's because the gem is named sinatra-base but the require is sinatra/base ?
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<echosystm>
when creating a block such as { |i| puts i }
<echosystm>
is there any default variable that can be used for the first parameter, thus removing the need for |i| ?
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<prettymuchbryce>
I'm just kidding, but I don't know the answer. I would think not.
<prettymuchbryce>
A lot of languages have something similar in for loops.
<echosystm>
groovy has "it"
<prettymuchbryce>
people just use i and j since the beginning of (epoch)time
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<Boohbah>
lol
<echosystm>
perl has... various insanity
<echosystm>
ruby must have something too
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<prettymuchbryce>
I really don't think so echosystm.
<prettymuchbryce>
You could use it if you like.
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<prettymuchbryce>
list.each do |it| puts it end
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<echosystm>
ok time for bed
<echosystm>
thanks anyway
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<jasonh>
is there a way to automatically generate a Gemfile from ruby code that has requires in it?
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<reactormonk>
jasonh, nope
<reactormonk>
jasonh, man up and write your Gemfile on your own ;-)
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* Hanmac
thinks there should be some gemfile-generator
<reactormonk>
Hanmac, well, it can only guess
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<reactormonk>
Hanmac, and it needs to download every possible gem from rubygems - or are the filelists indexed?
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<Hanmac>
reactormonk i mean like an bash program like: "Autor: <there you input>"
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<reactormonk>
Hanmac, isn't that gemspec?
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<Hanmac>
yeah that what i mean
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<atmosx>
don't you love the error messages when they are like that: Haml::SyntaxError: You don't need to use "- end" in Haml. Un-indent to close a block:
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<wpp>
atmosx: yeah i do :D
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<atmosx>
hehe me too :-P
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<Paradox>
atmosx, you might want to look into SLIM
<Paradox>
its a lot like haml
<Paradox>
but its a bit less derp about some things
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<Paradox>
like multi-line textual content
<Paradox>
or whitespace
<atmosx>
I already took a look at slim and it's good for what I want… but now I have done everythin gin haml
<Paradox>
it doesn't seem to fuck up whitespace as much as haml does with its alligators
<Paradox>
no matter how many alligators you throw at something
<Paradox>
they dont eat all the white space
<Paradox>
haml is nice though
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<Paradox>
infinitely better than erb
<atmosx>
and I'm not really fluid with HTML/CSS to begin with so, it's not trivial for me to change language
<Paradox>
if you know haml you know slim
<Paradox>
basically
<atmosx>
hmm okay I'll have a look at slim. Seems pretty easy after all.
<Paradox>
just drop the %
<Paradox>
there are some other differences
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<Paradox>
but thats the largest one
<atmosx>
I see
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<Paradox>
other things like the automatic whitespace and whatnot are really useful
<Paradox>
all too often i found myself having to do a + " " in haml
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<Paradox>
slim is also a fuckload faster than haml
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<wpp>
Paradox: is it well supported in rails?
<Paradox>
wpp, slim?
<Paradox>
very
<Paradox>
it even has generators
<Paradox>
so you can use it to generate your stuff
<wpp>
Paradox: awesome
<Paradox>
if you add the 'slim-rails' gem
<Paradox>
all your new generations have slim instead of erb templates
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<wpp>
Just read my RubyWeekly which linked to a github discussion about the binstubs thing, anyone followed that? Could someone explain what they were discussing?
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<iNerd>
ahh. hello.
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<wpp>
upps thought this was the rails irc. nevermind
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<Paradox>
get rid of kludgy sql from your where()s
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<iNerd>
urgh. I don't suppose anyone knows anything about haml? that channel is somewhat slow -_-
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<Mary2012>
ciao
<Mary2012>
!list
<Mary2012>
Mary2012: No warez here! This is not a file sharing channel (or network); read the channel topic. If you're looking for information about me, type « /msg ubottu !bot ». If you're looking for a channel, see « /msg ubottu !alis ».
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<evelyette>
/home/eleanor/.gem/ruby/1.9.1/gems/bundler-1.2.3/lib/bundler.rb:263: warning: Insecure world writable dir /home/user/dex2jar-0.0.9.11/ in PATH, mode 040777
<evelyette>
git://github.com/lrbalt/cache_digests.git (at master) is not checked out. Please run `bundle install`
<evelyette>
any ideas ?
<evelyette>
I've run bundle install but nothing is changed
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<shevy>
evelyette first thing you could do is change permissions
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<shevy>
second thing is to ask the guys on #bundler, they know most about bundler
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<Tuplanolla>
How can I restrict what can be accessed through a binding? I'm trying to only pass certain variables to ERB.
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<pothibo>
I'm not that comfortable with module and class methods, but I thought that this should work: https://gist.github.com/27a232159e65a13797e8 register_menu_for doesn't throw an exception but if I put a print "Hello" in the methods, nothing is printed. ideas?
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<waxjar>
i think you mean include on line 2 in navigationhelper.rb
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<pothibo>
is it possible to change scope of a proc? For example, I have a helper method that takes a block, now when I call this proc I want the proc to be called in a specific context that includes differnet methods
<Hanmac>
pothibo look for instance_eval
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<pothibo>
thanks!
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<GlenK>
so I had a dream about ruby last night. I couldn't talk to anyone or do anythng unless I wrote a ruby script to do so.
<emocakes>
ive had that dream before
<emocakes>
but with php
<emocakes>
it was a nightmare
<GlenK>
haha
<emocakes>
who am i to complain though, it could have been x86 asm
<emocakes>
;(
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<jrajav>
I sometimes have sex dreams where I suddenly feel the need to write a program to run on my partner. Like, literally, ON her. Like her body is an interpreter.
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<breakingthings>
so uh
<breakingthings>
i'm just gonna
<breakingthings>
pretend none of this ever happened
<emocakes>
mmm steamy jrajav
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<emocakes>
does she support multiple inputs?
<jrajav>
I think we're breaking breakingthings
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<yfeldblum>
Hanmac, declaring the setter methods to be private, so they can be called only by the instance (and typically only in the #initialize constructor)
<shevy>
the foo = ! foo toggles it without penalty?
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<yfeldblum>
shevy, what penalty?
<hoelzro>
shevy: what penalty do you expect?
<jrajav>
Yes, it's allowed by the rules of the game
<jrajav>
Not even a yellow card
<shevy>
dunno, cases where it would not work for instance
<Hanmac>
yfeldblum i thought that private forbits to be called with reciver (even self)
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<shevy>
jrajav is in a good mood today
<jrajav>
It's literally doing exactly the same thing as flag = flag ? false : true
<hoelzro>
Hanmac: only the explicit receiver
<hoelzro>
you must implicitly invoke private methods
<havenn>
jrajav: I dunno, I think if you want to cause confusion would be good to do something more like: flag_variable ^=! nil
<yfeldblum>
Hanmac, private methods suffixed with = (like #source=) are the only exception to that rule
<yfeldblum>
shevy, it will work in every case
<shevy>
ok
<yfeldblum>
shevy, except for your process receiving sigkill
<shevy>
jrajav can't get off the habit of breaking bots, can you? :P
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<jrajav>
It was MY bot that was always being broken!
<jrajav>
Poor guy
<jrajav>
He just wanted to do his job
<jrajav>
And maybe love a sexy robot named Eva
<jrajav>
And travel the stars
<Hanmac>
argh i still forgot to make feature requests for eval.in
<yfeldblum>
hoelzro, pmros, anyway the point of that file is an example of very limited use of `if-else` ... actually there's only one else and it's part of a `case-when-when-else`
<jrajav>
Hanmac: I hope you'll put one in to, you know, *actually show the result*
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<havenn>
Any OP around? Topic needs p362!
<yfeldblum>
pmros, nearly all the code is linear, and conditionals are of the break-early or return-early style; very little is nested
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<shevy>
ok now I learned the foo = ! foo thing... now my brain needs to remember it...
<Hanmac>
havenn i dont think so ... wasnt 362 be trainted? (i heard about critical segfaults)
<shevy>
what is "foo ^= true" doing again?
<Hanmac>
the same as your line before
<shevy>
it looks like a smiley
<yfeldblum>
shevy, `foo = foo ^ true`, which is the XOR binary operator
<shevy>
can I take code that is smiling at me seriously? :(
<shevy>
aha ok
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<yfeldblum>
shevy, binary or boolean operator, not bitwise operator for doing bit-fiddling
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<Hanmac>
smiling code is nice, but you should avoid code that laughs about you
<shevy>
lol
<shevy>
that is easy. I just paste that code into #ruby to get the lols
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<Hanmac>
you mean something like that? with_object(regex).any?(&:=~) :D
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<pmros>
I miss _why
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* hoelzro
waves
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<seanstickle>
_why? Nah, flaky dude.
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<jrajav>
He also wrote pretty terrible code apparently
<jrajav>
Just goes to show you don't have to be a good programmer to be a great programmer
<shevy>
yeah
<shevy>
I think it has to do with motivation and speed of your output
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<shevy>
you can spend years in a large project, doing little improvements, but the real net gains are very small
<shevy>
or... you end up abandoning it for bit rot :(
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<hoelzro>
I think it's about execution of ideas; everyone has good ideas, but few people actually follow through with them
<emocakes>
and motivation ^^
<emocakes>
if you care about what you are doing, it will be done righ
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<hoelzro>
someone once told me that it's not about having an idea; it's about being crazy enough to think that you can get that idea working in a reasonable amount of time =)
<emocakes>
if you dont care, monkey patching endures
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<hoelzro>
emocakes: very true
<emocakes>
i come from php land
<emocakes>
and a few months ago
<emocakes>
i got given 2 weeks to spit out a fully working rights management app which had organizations, departments, cost centers, permissions(time range based etc etc etc)
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<emocakes>
ive spent the past 4 months fixing it
<emocakes>
pressure :\ && not enough time to plan it out correctly
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<shevy>
emocakes!!! I like cake... but not emos :(
<swarley>
I like emos
<shevy>
good old php
<emocakes>
shevy, i cut myself?
<shevy>
then you would be a bleeding emocake, we can't have that!
<emocakes>
no
<emocakes>
id be a cake which cuts itself.
<emocakes>
:p
<swarley>
I wish my grass was emo
<swarley>
then it would cut itself too
<seanstickle>
emocakes: sounds like a job for Prolog
<shevy>
oh man, emos are useless ...
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<emocakes>
:'(
<emocakes>
i was feeling that way for a while
<emocakes>
im learning rails
<emocakes>
and there was so much 'magic' compared to php
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<emocakes>
that i was really reluctant to write any controller code, and i was angry at why it wasnt working how i wanted it to work
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<emocakes>
so i bit the bullet, and wrote out the controller code, and voila, it does what i want...
<emocakes>
magic huh?
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<seanstickle>
Uh, no.
<yfeldblum>
emocakes, heh :D
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<seanstickle>
I mean, I suppose it's magic in the same way that heating your steak cooks it.
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<aedorn>
I love steak.
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<emocakes>
i love sausage
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<emocakes>
erm, that didnt come out right
<emocakes>
who watches miami vice?
<emocakes>
the tv series
<emocakes>
?
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<pngl>
Is someone successfully using rvm under byobu? I get "rvm is not a function", but running my shell as a login shell under byobu doesn't sound like a good idea...
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<shevy>
emocakes in my quest to become cleverer, I must only watch videos where matz speaks
<emocakes>
i learnt a new word, 'cleverer' haha
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<seanstickle>
You are unfamiliar with the process of making comparative adjectives?
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<aedorn>
I really need to make an app to do system builds for me... perhaps that'll be my next project
<seanstickle>
You mean, like Hudson?
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<aedorn>
no, hardware wise.. system as in server components. Sitting here finding the best items at X price point is tedious and annoying.
<aedorn>
Guess that means I need to build the metacritic.com of computer hardware first
<seanstickle>
Ah, like a mobile agent.
<seanstickle>
Well, except for the mobile part, I guess
<seanstickle>
So, just an agent.
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<nmeum>
is it possible to disable rubys buffering?
<Hanmac>
nmeum can you show me in a sample there "rubys buffering" anoys you?
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<yfeldblum>
nmeum, you can use IO#sysread, #syswrite, and #sysseek, which are unbuffered by ruby (still buffered by the OS, though, and don't mix with the other IO methods), and you can also use IO#sync= to turn off ruby buffering for an IO instance
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<canton7>
IO#flush is also relevant here
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<pmros>
can I precompile ruby code in ruby 2 preview2?
<nmeum>
Hanmac, yfeldblum: I just used $stdout.sync = true
<pmros>
precompiling like rubinius
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<esdf>
can i sort that somehow according to num_players?
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<canton7>
esdf, one point: don't leave a gap between the function name and the open brackets, as you've done on line 6. it starts getting ambiguous quickly
<canton7>
but yeah, servers.sort_by!{ |x| x['num_players }
<esdf>
canton7: ah so open("")?
<esdf>
and ty
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<canton7>
(also, you don't need line 3 unless you're using ruby 1.8, and replace lines 6 and 7 with json = File.read('list.json')
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<canton7>
esdf, yup.
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<esdf>
aha ty
<canton7>
you're opening the file, but never closing it again. doesn't do any harm here, but in general it's bad practice
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<esdf>
canton7: well i want the output to actually load into zenity list
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<esdf>
nad have tabs you know "host name" etc like in that puts line
<esdf>
would i need to make an array out of the output for that to happen?
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<canton7>
i'm starting to get dead picky (but I'm bored): line 11, you don't need the \n at the end of the string. 'puts' sticks a newline on the end if you don't specify one explicitely
<esdf>
aha ok, im kinda new to ruby, so i don't know much
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<canton7>
I'm afraid I have no idea what a zenity list is
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<esdf>
zenity is that gui, like xdialog
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<esdf>
canton7: http://sprunge.us/hhWG?rb so what am i missing on line 11? i didn't quite understand servers = Hash[] comment :D
<canton7>
parsed.sort_by!{ |v| v['num_players'] }, and take out line 11.
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<canton7>
(done too much driving today... my brain's addled)
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<esdf>
ah ok
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<esdf>
canton7: well ok, now that that's done, what's the easiest way for me to load it in a gui? export to a file or let the gui(zenity) grab the output directly from ruby?
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<canton7>
I have no idea - not played with zenity before. I suspect making ruby fire up zenity would be easiest?
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<esdf>
hmm i'll try
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<esdf>
canton7: well i've piped the ruby output directly to zenity
<canton7>
esdf, depends on what you're doing. map has a very specific function - namely taking each element of an array and producing something from that element
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<canton7>
if that's what you're doing, map is often easier to read than each
<esdf>
canton7: well what i'm doing is parsing across whole object for those arrays
<canton7>
(and that is what you're doing here)
<esdf>
ah ok
<esdf>
ty
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<esdf>
canton7: so what does servers_list.join refer to btw?
<esdf>
having trouble figuring it out
<canton7>
servers_list is an array (#map returns an array), with each element being the value from line 10. Array#join takes an array and turns it into a string
<canton7>
e.g. [1, 2, 3].join('-') # => "1-2-3"
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<esdf>
hmm ok, i get parser.rb:13:in `<main>': undefined local variable or method `servers_list' for main:Object (NameError)
<canton7>
it should be defined on line 9. let's see your code exactly?
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<havenn>
Question of whether to use #map or #each reminds me of Almost Sinatra's "use map instead of each, it's shorter": https://github.com/rkh/almost-sinatra
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<esdf>
hmm
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<havenn>
I think I wanna use almost-rack and almost-sinatra for my next side-project. Rack in three lines, Sinatra in four. :)
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<esdf>
havenn, dno i'll use map because it returns values,, each returns array names
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<havenn>
esdf: The because "it's shorter" is just a joke. :P
<esdf>
havenn, but now i'd like to put each value in it's own column
<esdf>
havenn: oh :D
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<txdv_>
1 line less
<txdv_>
o you save so much effort
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<Hanmac>
esdf use map if you want to use the new returned Array, and use each if you do not care about the return of the block
<Hanmac>
samples: result = array1.map {|s| s.to_i} converts all elements into integers, array2.each {|o| o.enable} calls the enable method on all elements
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<reppard>
shevy: everything cool with you hd?
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<jessepollak>
anyone around who might have a second to help with a question about method_missing?
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<yfeldblum>
jessepollak, what's the question?
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<shevy>
reppard hmm I am thinking...
<shevy>
more and more code means more and more bugs, but also more and more features
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<jessepollak>
I'm trying to enable method missing on method chains. so let's say I have an DB object, called db and then call db.collection.query (and neither collection nor query are methods on DB), is there a way to get that whole method chain and then do something with it?
<shevy>
I often wonder if there would be less bugs, if ruby would be a simpler language, and with a larger standard library
<yfeldblum>
shevy, like java?
<yfeldblum>
jessepollak, no
<otters>
jessepollak: not really
<jessepollak>
could I recurse through the method missing chain?
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<yfeldblum>
jessepollak, why? what are you trying to do with the method chain?
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<jessepollak>
I'm just messing around, trying to recreate the functionality from the mongodb console for fun
<yfeldblum>
jessepollak, you could have the first thing return a proxy, which defines method_missing which returns a new proxy, which defines method_missing which returns yet a new proxy
<otters>
what I would do is define an ivar @method_chain and then append to it in method_missing
<jessepollak>
yeah, that's what I was thinking, but that's probably more pain than just creating a Collection object which gets returned and has the query method on it
<yfeldblum>
jessepollak, your best bet is probably to use real objects
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<yfeldblum>
otters, that breaks in ways that annoy everyone around you
<otters>
well that's probably why I don't have a job
<jessepollak>
thanks for the help guys
<jessepollak>
or girls*
<otters>
yfeldblum: how does it break exactly
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<yfeldblum>
otters, o = first.some_method ; a = o.some_method ; b = o.some_method
<otters>
yeah, you're absolutely right
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<shevy>
cuddly otters! I'd hire you right away for your nick alone
<otters>
<3
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<shevy>
yfeldblum problem with java is, imho, it is way too verbose. and I also think, it has lots of bugs too, when you write a really big application, so that in itself would not be a real improvement over ruby
<shevy>
I read from that guy who wrote a game with around... 500K lines of code in java or something like that
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<ecksit>
has anyone used a sintara and rails together?
<shevy>
in the end he abandoned that project, saying that it's too much code to maintain
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<whitequark>
shevy: well, minecraft is entirely in java
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<shevy>
what I notice so far is that, the larger a project becomes, the harder it is to make changes to it
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<whitequark>
shevy: this is not related to language
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<shevy>
different languages require more code
<whitequark>
I'd say that managing a 500 KLOC ruby project is far more complex than 500 KLOC java project
<canton7>
yeah, seconded
<seanstickle>
Why?
<whitequark>
if all other factors are equivalent (and we're in an ideal world.)
<arturaz>
thirded
<whitequark>
seanstickle: to say it very concisely, higher code density
<whitequark>
you squeeze more meaning into the same amount of LOC
<seanstickle>
whitequark: so?
<shevy>
yeah, for equal amount of lines of code, for a serious project, the ruby project would be more complex
<arturaz>
seanstickle, IMHO because of the dynamic typing. You can't ever get sure what gets called from where and how :)
<seanstickle>
Haha
<whitequark>
seanstickle: complexity does not arise from purely lines of code, but from the logic behind them
<workmad3>
once you're at that scale of code, I'd be very hesitant to make any general statements about complexity and maintainability personally
<yfeldblum>
in a 500 KLOC java project, you would likely have 400KLOC of getter/setter methods :D
<seanstickle>
I welcome you to try and manage a 500 KLOC project in x86 assembly.
<seanstickle>
Which I have.
<seanstickle>
It is not easier.
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<seanstickle>
Although it is considerably less "code dense"
<workmad3>
it depends on design, code organisation, what language aspects are in use, etc.
<whitequark>
seanstickle: oh indeed, but note that I talked about "meaning" (yeah I just invented this term, but it helps the explanation)
<whitequark>
seanstickle: x86 assembly requires you to care about a great deal more things than Java to implement the same logic
<whitequark>
there is probably a better way to express this.
<seanstickle>
So, if it's a less expressive language, it's more complex. And if it's a more expressive language, it's more complex.
<seanstickle>
Sure, this all makes perfect sense.
<seanstickle>
It's arbitrary make up stuff hour!
<workmad3>
assembly has a lot more 'incidental complexity' (to steal the term from fred brooks)
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<whitequark>
^ what he says
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<workmad3>
personally, I'd say that large projects require more care to change, no matter what the language
<seanstickle>
Yup. Agreed.
<workmad3>
they need more design, more care
<workmad3>
and if you approach large projects with the same approach as small projects, you end up with a maintenance nightmare
<whitequark>
"programming in the small" vs "programming in the large"
<seanstickle>
Doghouses vs skyscrapers.
<whitequark>
this also reminds me of a very nice article by B. Stroustrup
<whitequark>
he should've kept writing instead of creating languages :)
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<workmad3>
personally, I think we need more recognition of the differences between computer science and software engineering
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<shevy>
whitequark what I would like to find out is, whether it is possible to create a language, similar to ruby, faster, with less features (and also simpler), and as a consequence of this alone, to have more software, with less bugs
<workmad3>
in the same way that we have a recognition of differences between (for example) material sciences and structural engineering
<whitequark>
workmad3: we need to stop thinking that people who are good in computer science should build actual projects
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<whitequark>
exactly
<whitequark>
the recognition is already there and is well understood by businesses
<seanstickle>
I've heard this same complaint for the last 20 years, and it's not getting any better.
<seanstickle>
I declare it a hobbyhorse issue.
<shevy>
seanstickle damn, you old! :(
<whitequark>
seanstickle: I'd say the problem is not contained within IT
<whitequark>
for some reason, there is a strange notion that graduating from university will make you a better employee
<workmad3>
it doesn't help that computer science seems to almost be a dumping ground for bits that other subjects don't want to cover
<whitequark>
well, it does mean you can probably do pointless things for years straight. but that's all.
<seanstickle>
No, but it does signal that you are more likely to be a good employee.
<workmad3>
maths department doesn't want to teach algorithms? dump it in computer science!
<shevy>
it's a selection process, some make it through university, some not. not that this says anything about success
<workmad3>
same with logic
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<shevy>
yeah, you could be the perfect slave with perfect degrees :)
<whitequark>
seanstickle: I don't see how it does.
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<seanstickle>
whitequark: signals that you are capable of being patient enough and careful enough to complete the sort of work that most places that hire college grads have for you to do.
<seanstickle>
whitequark: the content of your studies are entirely secondary.
<workmad3>
seanstickle: I'd probably say that it used to be the case
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<whitequark>
seanstickle: in other words, it signals that you can dump 5 years of your life into shit you don't care about
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<whitequark>
in that sense of being a good employee, indeed.
<seanstickle>
whitequark: there you go.
<GlenK>
bah. none of this applies to electrical engineering just to give one example
<workmad3>
seanstickle: back in the days (at least in the UK) where the incentive was on producing good graduates, not in increasing pass rates
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<seanstickle>
workmad3: signaling systems do tend to get undermined in that way.
<whitequark>
GlenK: I'm not talking about the cases when you actually need the knowledge you (can) receive
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<seanstickle>
workmad3: the poorer classes buy knockoffs of expensive goods as well.
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<seanstickle>
workmad3: generating the creation of new luxury goods to be used as a signal.
<whitequark>
GlenK: more about the things where to become a manager you need to have a diploma. of any sort. which doesnt' mean more than any other A4 piece of paper.
<havenn>
There should be a degree for solving 333 or more Project Euler problems.
<seanstickle>
havenn: that's because you think that degrees are about knowledge
<seanstickle>
havenn: which is where you are mistaken
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<havenn>
seanstickle: *should* - I make a normative claim!
<seanstickle>
havenn: good luck with those.
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<workmad3>
degrees shouldn't be about having knowledge
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<workmad3>
they should be indicative of the ability to acquire knowledge and learning
<seanstickle>
And we should all be paid what we're truly worth.
<seanstickle>
But we don't live in magical unicorn rainbow land.
<whitequark>
you know when the education system is functioning correctly? when students would fight (metaphorically and sometimes literally) to acquire the knowledge they need
<whitequark>
not when they get in university because their parents said so
<seanstickle>
Ha
<workmad3>
seanstickle: nah, in magical unicorn rainbow land, we don't get paid
<whitequark>
or they need a fucking piece of paper
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<whitequark>
which is easier to buy if needed, which also avoids pointless wasting of your time
<seanstickle>
workmad3: well, true. but we do get all our other wishes.
<workmad3>
seanstickle: we do the best we can, and others do the same, and society ticks on fine with everybody contributing what they can :P
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<havenn>
seanstickle: I <3 Unicorn and Rainbows! Puma is nice too, but for MRI forking seems the way to go. >.>
<seanstickle>
workmad3: indeed they do.
<workmad3>
seanstickle: and the complete divorce of that from actual reality is part of why I no longer like star trek :)
<seanstickle>
workmad3: and economic signaling keeps working just like it always has.
<whitequark>
seanstickle: it's not like there is even a theoretical way of determining how much you're worth. you're worth exactly as much as how you could sell yourself.
<seanstickle>
whitequark: and your magical dreams are equally nonsensical.
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<seanstickle>
whitequark: together, we can establish the Kingdom of Puppy Rainbow Heaven
<whitequark>
seanstickle: it's not like I pulled that argument about students fighting for knowledge out of thin air.
<seanstickle>
I think I know where you pulled it out of.
<seanstickle>
;)
<workmad3>
however, it's good to identify the ideal so that we can have IRC discussions about how far away from that ideal we are :)
<havenn>
I'm curious how much copy-on-write friendly GC in 2.0.0 will benefit Unicorn memory usage irl.
<seanstickle>
workmad3: assumes that we have the same ideal. which is doubtful.
<workmad3>
seanstickle: in my ideal world, we do :P
<seanstickle>
hA
<havenn>
seanstickle: So you are for degrees, or against them, or indifferent?
<shevy>
in the ideal world you two would be happily married with one another
<whitequark>
a spherical seanstickle in vacuum
<seanstickle>
shevy: you are so romantic!
<workmad3>
whitequark: is that a punchline or a threat? :)
<seanstickle>
havenn: I look at what there is, and how things seem to work.
<seanstickle>
havenn: I make no normative claims.
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<whitequark>
workmad3: the former. I think.
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<seanstickle>
Given my waistline these days, a spherical seanstickle is not so far from the truth
<whitequark>
seanstickle: unless you can make a normative claim, you are unable to change anything, for you do not know the direction of change
<seanstickle>
whitequark: that's the price I pay.
<whitequark>
a price you pay for what?
<seanstickle>
Doing what I like to do.
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<whitequark>
if I only looked at how the things seem to work, I won't be able to do what I want.
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<whitequark>
because the latter had to include a fuck off to a lot of people.
<whitequark>
but your position might be different.
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<seanstickle>
I just want to understand how things work.
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<seanstickle>
Well, and retire with some money.
<whitequark>
so, you're for pure knowledge after all? :D
<seanstickle>
Maybe?
<whitequark>
knowledge without a reason and without a will
<shevy>
pure knowledge and pure power
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<shevy>
whitequark to CONQUER THE WORLD!!!
<seanstickle>
All men by nature desire to know.
<whitequark>
seanstickle: I disagree, but can understand you.
<seanstickle>
I am one of them.
<whitequark>
hahaha
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<whitequark>
by nature I'd say not
<shevy>
hmm I dont need to know everything, but I must control everything
<whitequark>
or maybe just not all
<shevy>
you humans are so puny
<shevy>
you make me sick
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<shevy>
gah
<workmad3>
I've been gradually disillusioned from the idea that I can know everything
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<workmad3>
and from the idea that anyone can know everything
<shevy>
I have to either fix a complicated bug, or rewrite from scratch... and once again I chose to rewrite ... :(
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<workmad3>
and from the idea that there is an absolute truth to things that can be known...
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<whitequark>
I wonder how much knowledge human brain can actually acquire. Given there are people who remember every single second of several decades of their life
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<seanstickle>
whitequark: quite a bit
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<seanstickle>
I had to learn mnemonic techniques from the middle ages to keep up with the stuff I wanted to learn.
<seanstickle>
My natural memory was insufficient
<workmad3>
whitequark: physicists have worked out the quantum information density limit, so they can tell you the limit of information that a volume the size of the human brain can hold (in terms of information entropy)
<shevy>
whitequark those people scare me
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<whitequark>
workmad3: yeah I know about those calculations
<workmad3>
whitequark: translating that figure into a usable bit of information is a bit difficult though :)
<whitequark>
but the brain is far less dense than that, of course
<seanstickle>
Try not to confuse information with knowledge though.
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<whitequark>
seanstickle: I don't.
<seanstickle>
I don't need to memorize the position of all the points on a parabola.
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<shevy>
that's what you say now, but wait until your life depends on it
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<workmad3>
I wonder if the limit of human memory is beyond what can be input in a human lifetime?
<shevy>
ever saw "The Saw" or "Cube"? yes? those are the situations where your life could depend on it!!!
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<shevy>
so you better learn all there is to know about a parabola ...
<whitequark>
workmad3: it seems so
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<whitequark>
from what I remember from my physiology course, you could remember somewhere along 300 years of your life
<whitequark>
until you'd begin to have capacity problems
<seanstickle>
shevy: with the analytic form of the parabola, I can calculate all the points.
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<seanstickle>
shevy: no need to memorize them
<seanstickle>
:)
<seanstickle>
I didn't memorize the trig tables either. Quicker to calculate most of the common ones in my head.
<workmad3>
or keep an emergency slide-rule concealed on your person? :)
<whitequark>
seanstickle: +1 on not memorizing that. just imagine a circle and everything becomes obvious.
<seanstickle>
whitequark: yup
<seanstickle>
Imagine a cone with an intersecting plane, and you can work out a lot of the parabola stuff too.
<canton7>
the one-one-root-two and one-two-root-three triangles are peasy to remember
<seanstickle>
Slower going though.
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<whitequark>
seanstickle: huh, never heard that. what could you infer from that construct?
<workmad3>
whitequark: you've never encountered conic sections?
<seanstickle>
whitequark: why do you think a parabola is called a conic section?
<seanstickle>
whitequark: it's one of the intersections of a cone and a plane
<workmad3>
whitequark: which let you construct parabolas, ellipses, circles and hyperbolas?
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<whitequark>
... crap
<seanstickle>
:D
<whitequark>
of course I did
<whitequark>
I hate my memory
<workmad3>
heh
<seanstickle>
We read Apollonius in college, and worked through all the proofs
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<seanstickle>
Good fun!
<workmad3>
in fairness, one of the worst bits of human memory is probably the indexing system
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<workmad3>
it can all be there, but you're just lacking that last bit of the key to look it up in your head with :)
<whitequark>
to be fair, I never really liked math or shined at it. but when I've seen an immediate application for some part of it, it always became quite easy.
<seanstickle>
I found math to be much easier to learn when studied historically.
<seanstickle>
And not as a set of abstract principles handed down from on high.
<workmad3>
I found maths much easier to handle when I started learning it recreationally (with a similar principle to seanstickle)
<workmad3>
once you abandon the notion that it's all learning formula and equations and that it's all set in stone and absolute, maths gets a lot more interesting
<seanstickle>
I particularly enjoyed reading the arguments back in the day about why negative numbers were pure nonsense.
<workmad3>
what a lot of maths really boils down to is 'what can I do with this set of assumptions (axioms)?'
<seanstickle>
And then reading similar arguments years and years later about why imaginary numbers are nonsense.
<workmad3>
and then, on top of that, 'what can I still do if I start abandoning or changing these axioms?'
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<whitequark>
for me, the moment of truth appeared when I realized that lambda calculus is immediately very useful for understanding compiler construction. then math stopped being stuff I need to do because I need and became a valuable, useful tool.
<workmad3>
the 'core' principle (if there is one) for maths is probably consistency
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<seanstickle>
I did love reading the Principia
<workmad3>
if you look at consistency, you see a lot of things come through... e.g. why don't we divide by 0? because we can't make it consistent
<seanstickle>
You can divide by an infinitesimal though!
<seanstickle>
:D
<workmad3>
seanstickle: sure, if you're in the hyper-reals
<seanstickle>
Aren't we all?
<workmad3>
seanstickle: if you're just in the reals, there isn't a concept of an infinitesimal ;)
<seanstickle>
Boo
<seanstickle>
Calculus is much nicer with hyperreals
<workmad3>
seanstickle: and let's not forget about the hyper-complex... or the surreals...
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<seanstickle>
I have a book on surreal numbers for accounting.
<workmad3>
well, yeah... hyperreals came about as one approach to providing a concrete foundation for building calculus :)
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<seanstickle>
Nonstandard analysis makes calculus much easier to learn for people from my college.
<seanstickle>
Since we tend to skip all that limit stuff.
<workmad3>
yeah, I wish I'd been introduced to calculus using nonstandard analysis
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<workmad3>
talking about infinitesimals and infinities just seems a more natural approach, IMO
<shevy>
you geeks you!
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<seanstickle>
workmad3: I agree. Limits are for wusses.
<shevy>
look at you two go... professor seanstickle and professor workmad3, in another coffee session :D
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<workmad3>
it was what they originally used, they just took longer to figure out how to put infinitesimals on solid ground
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<workmad3>
and by 'they' I mean all those mathematicians in history :P
<workmad3>
shevy: :P
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<workmad3>
shevy: we're not talking about pedagogy yet
<seanstickle>
workmad3: I know. I read the Principia.
<workmad3>
shevy: we're still purely in the realms of math geek ;)