<dionysus69>
because fragmentation is just bad, and what better time to do it than now on a Ruby 3 release !
<leftylink>
unify or not, I have no choice but to stay here - my work forbids slack and discord, and so I can only use IRC
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<leftylink>
if people leave from here, then too bad for me
<dionysus69>
yea that's what I told them
<dionysus69>
that it's better to go back to IRC, and then use some kind of custom bridges for slack and discord so you can type on slack but messages will be sent here
<dionysus69>
it shouldn't be hard to implement, I can even do it for a fun project but I will need help/guidance navigating the IRC stuff, since I am not familiar what IRC protocol can offer. I am sure slack side will be straightforward, they have a good API
<dionysus69>
maybe we can find a way to create a single backend for IRC /slack /discord and any other service ?
<dionysus69>
so the database / history is shared? that would be super kewl! not just to solve ruby community problem but it would be a product in itself
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<MeVegan[m]>
leftylink: I agree with keeping IRC as the single source of truth, but out of curiosity, would you be able to use a mobile client and mobile data to connect with Matrix, Slack, or Discord while at work if those in the community chose to move?
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<leftylink>
able is one thing (I would probably be able), but whether it would really work well is quite another. it's hard to predict in advance whether it would work well. I say it's hard to predict because, well, a community is only as good as its people
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<MeVegan[m]>
I don't understand.
<dionysus69>
leftylink: single platform doesn't imply all sort of people lumped into one bucket, there would be different channels just like there are multiple channels on here, and on slack and on discord
<dionysus69>
I just think it's a bad idea to use platforms as a "class" divisor
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<dionysus69>
and my post in slack got removed, so blatantly that my feelings got hurt lol
<MeVegan[m]>
dionysus69: great point!
<dionysus69>
as if I suggested something that makes world a worse place lol
<MeVegan[m]>
What Slack group?
<dionysus69>
Ruby on Rails slack grp
<dionysus69>
there are 14k members (while active are probably half a k max)
<MeVegan[m]>
Interesting. Is there general Ruby stuff there too?
<dionysus69>
yea I guess, ruby community definitely includes Rails folks :D I am a rails guy haha
<MeVegan[m]>
I guess I assumed it would be focused mostly on Rails, which I don't use yet. I'll join soon and check it out. About your post, did you break a rule by posting it?
<MeVegan[m]>
Also, are there Ruby email mailing lists like in the Emacs community? What about Gitter?
<dionysus69>
it was in coding channel but they dont have a general channel
<dionysus69>
I am sure there's an email community
<dionysus69>
I remember there's Gitter too
<MeVegan[m]>
Maybe they removed it for being off topic.
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<dionysus69>
I dont know man, I just see this fragmentation as a problem, while most people just don't care, and it's frustrating
<MeVegan[m]>
The Neovim IRC channel/room shows Gitter messages, that may be a good example to start with.
<leftylink>
maybe you should ask people why they don't care and don't see it as a problem
<leftylink>
it will help tailor your arguments to their viewpoints
<MeVegan[m]>
I agree that it's difficult to stay connected. I also agree that IRC isn't the best for everyone and making changes to encourage more inclusiveness is a good thing.
<leftylink>
you have to know your audience if you want to be persuasive
<leftylink>
you have to see it from the other person's point of view
<leftylink>
figure out what they want, and figure out how to phrase the proposed changes in terms of what they want
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<MeVegan[m]>
I REALLY like the IRC log and search capability. I feel like that's unique to IRC, although Discord's search is probably closest ... but not open source.
<dionysus69>
leftylink: I have bullet points of arguments to persuade people into this
<dionysus69>
but again I am right now split into 4 platforms trying to spread the word haha
<dionysus69>
multiple platforms are bad for beginners, when I was a beginner I was cross-posting questions in IRC and slack, obvious downside. Running multiple clients in case you care for more than one platform is something most people simply won't do. IRC has a history problem and is lacking some basic features that can be easily fixed if hooked on to some custom backend that I was proposing, that backend would host all other platforms thus we would get s
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<dionysus69>
yea I know there are logs but feels clunky form, I argue that scrolling up or simply typing in search box for specific content is comfier
<MeVegan[m]>
Slack is so much worse since one needs to pay them to get access to history. Discord is not open source.
<dionysus69>
anyways that's not the core problem, obviously my suggestion simply means that instead of logging it on some random website, we would share the db with other platforms, thus we get cross-platform IM chats
<dionysus69>
MeVegan[m]: with what I am suggesting there would be no limit to what you would store, 100gb costs 10$ a month
<dionysus69>
so my point is clear, everyone would argue that every single platform would have a downside, oh that one doesnt have nice search/history, oh that one charges money for more than 100k records, oh that client takes too much RAM
<dionysus69>
for example, the email lists were a good example you made, that was and for some communities still is THE standard of communication
<dionysus69>
I am just suggesting to create similar standard, but modern. email is pretty dumb and clunky medium
<MeVegan[m]>
Hmm... How much time and energy is needed for what your suggesting? It seems complicated.
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<MeVegan[m]>
* Hmm... How much time and energy is needed for what you're suggesting? It seems complicated.
<dionysus69>
I am chatting with people accross on slack and discord at the same time
<dionysus69>
this is what I am talking about, this is horrible :D
<dionysus69>
MeVegan[m]: it seems like a legit open-source project, which would be utilizable by Any industry that needs communication, basically, everyone
<MeVegan[m]>
dionysus69: I'm not disagreeing with you.
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<MeVegan[m]>
Do you have a Git repo people can contribute to? Are there other projects on GitHub or Gitlab that may already be working on this?
<dionysus69>
I already posted that myself on slack :D seen it first posted by sevenseacat here years ago :P
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<dionysus69>
surrounder: but I am not suggesting telling everyone to move to a single platform, I am suggesting to create a common backend with a simplistic optional frontend perhaps, other platform clients would just switch to that common "rooms"
<surrounder>
like, an irc channel
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<dionysus69>
yes exactly
<dionysus69>
but IRC channel cannot be integrated with other platforms out of the box, that's why I am suggesting to create a bridge
<dionysus69>
so for example someone would post in a slack#ruby#general channel and it would go to freenode#ruby-offtopic
<dionysus69>
we could couple chats / workspaces / channels based on what their platform allows
<dionysus69>
if platform doesn't allow sharing data, well too bad for them, when 2-3 platforms are consolidated, 4th and the 5th ones would be naturally attracted to first 3 anyway
<dionysus69>
so everyone would be healthy and happy
<surrounder>
don't see what slack^wsalesforce has to gain by that
<dionysus69>
we wouldn't need to contact them and they won't gain anything out of it
<dionysus69>
we would just do it, slack's lack of free history beyond some point would be handled by our own servers which wouldnt have any limit
<surrounder>
or convince people not to use closed platforms for OSS
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<dionysus69>
since convincing people is impossible, into anything pretty much, my suggestion is basically going around it :D
<dionysus69>
you can keep using what software you like but just switch to a different/cross-platform channels
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<dionysus69>
maybe for IRC that won't be even necessary, if we are able to have an IO api to ruby relevant channels
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<dionysus69>
dunno, some people said it's more work than what we get out of it
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<AndreYuhai>
Hey there, when writing into CSV file semicolon (;) in the string is also creating a separate column, how can I avoid that?
<dionysus69>
AndreYuhai: escape it with \
<dionysus69>
Anyways, I will start investigating this during my free time and I if I start the OS project I will share it everywhere so everyone will be welcome to contribute
<AndreYuhai>
Okay I will try that
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<apotheon>
The "history problem" of IRC is actually a problem with people expecting realtime-ish conversation to somehow be the same as a web forum. There's little point in caring about having eight years of logs in a Slack channel, because most of the useful stuff will be unfindable piles of duplicated statements with little or no indications of whether any discovered advice is considered good.
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<apotheon>
dionysus69:
<havenwood>
I'm always impressed with whitequark's logs.
<dionysus69>
logs are useful, we will have AI in the future who will read it whole and summarize/evaluate dev communities
<dionysus69>
so be careful what you write in here guys xD
<apotheon>
As surrounder pointed out, Salesforce in no way benefits from allowing interoperation, unless it temporarily needs a boost by somehow attracting more users to its platform before cutting ties again.
<dionysus69>
apotheon: what will they do? ban the account we use ?
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<apotheon>
Salesforce, when not benefiting from interoperation, would go out of its way to *break* interoperation.
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<dionysus69>
apotheon: does salesforce own slack?
<apotheon>
Killing an account is just one thing it could do. It could also use binary logs, then later change the binary log format if the bridge gets updated to somehow unify logs.
<apotheon>
Yes, Salesforce recently bought Slack.
<apotheon>
. . . or something to that effect.
<dionysus69>
I mean, if they start a war, they would lose customers, we'd just tell people to move from slack to any other cross-platform compatible chat client. IRC/discord/gitter
<dionysus69>
so I dont see how that is in salesforce's interests
<apotheon>
A war?
<dionysus69>
yea I mean, if they start changing API to break our app ?
<dionysus69>
and if they start banning our accounts ?
<apotheon>
Most people don't give two shits about ineteroperability as long as they keep being able to do what they've gotten used to doing. In many cases, that means using Slack.
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<dionysus69>
why I'd say discord does no worse job than what slack does
<apotheon>
People already tell other people to move off of Slack for much more important reasons than some plan for a Grand Unified Ruby Community, and they don't care. They stay with Slack.
<apotheon>
Changing the API to break IRC interoperation is already something Slack has done.
<apotheon>
The reason people stay on Slack isn't the Ruby community there, by the way; it's the fact they're involved in a *bunch* of things on Slack.
<apotheon>
They're invested in the platform, and as long as it doesn't become outright unusable (or close to that) they're likely to remain dedicated to slack because of it, just like many people stay on Facebook despite its obvious mental toxicity.
<apotheon>
Discord is also terrible.
<dionysus69>
yea I get it, my work also uses slack
<apotheon>
They're both closed source, they're both prone to abusing user data, and so on.
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<apotheon>
I don't think they'd have to resort to banning accounts, anyway. Just adding features to Slack would be enough.
<dionysus69>
but we wouldnt care for features
<dionysus69>
all we would care for is text data like here
<apotheon>
"Everybody loves our new feature. To bad it broke compatibility with IRC again, but nobody cares about those prehistoric cave trolls on IRC anyway."
<apotheon>
That'd be the attitude of Salesforce, and a lot of Slack users would agree.
<dionysus69>
and we would just fix it with the new API they provide, if they dont, oh well its bad for them
<apotheon>
If the Slack features change the way people use Slack so that their use of it is incompatible with IRC, the new feature effective breaks the bridge.
<dionysus69>
I dont get it, if threads can't break the IRC integration, then what can ?
<apotheon>
How many "start a video call" links flooding IRC does it take for the IRC side to start banning the bridge?
<apotheon>
(just to imagine a potential problem)
<dionysus69>
as long as someone can type a message in slack there has to be a way to take it out with an API
<apotheon>
Slack isn't just a text chat system.
<apotheon>
Look at the history of Slack, though. It had an IRC API of its own, and Slack shut it down.
<dionysus69>
yea but I'd imagine we would filter out anything non-textual
<dionysus69>
like calls and attachments
<apotheon>
That's because Slack got a big enough user base, to some extent largely siphoned off of IRC, to no longer need to cater to IRC. It became "dominant" to some degree, at which point its primary need is to keep people from moving away from Slack, and is no longer to keep pulling new users to it.
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<apotheon>
That's how corporations work. They depend on market growth and dominance as their strategic focus, and as such have a built-in need to manipulate user bases to destroy anything that competes for users.
<apotheon>
Filtering out "anything non-textual" might ultimately mean filtering out Slack, though.
<apotheon>
e.g. binary protocols
<apotheon>
Filter out attachments, and you might end up breaking the ability to communicate.
<dionysus69>
if they create an encrypted protocol so we cant see the message whats the point of having an API :D
<apotheon>
Yes, that too.
<dionysus69>
yea I guess it's closed source they can do anything but that's how coalitions always worked, coalitions always defeat the monster, it's the law of balance
<apotheon>
Sometimes a coalition *is* the monster, too.
<apotheon>
. . . and sometimes it takes a few hundred years to defeat a monster.
<dionysus69>
if you are saying coalition is the monster you are basically saying the humanity is the monster, and I agree, but the dominant crazy monster within the monster is always under check
<apotheon>
There's also the problem of combining thousands of users across different platforms into a single realtime-ish communication intermedium. I've seen IRC channels borderline-unusable because of how many people are talking all at once.
<apotheon>
dionysus69: I'm saying exactly what I said -- that *sometimes* the coalition is the monster.
<dionysus69>
some monsters are beneficial to common good, it's the necessary evil, the state and the empire :P common tongue is nice, but for some it's the conquerer's tongue, slippery slope I guess
<apotheon>
"Necessary" evils are just evil.
<dionysus69>
state is the necessary evil though
<dionysus69>
even a bit of state is usurpation of some kind of power
<apotheon>
There are many who would dispute the necessity of a state, too.
<dionysus69>
delegate :power, :state
<apotheon>
For instance, there's an argument that power and rights cannot be delegated to a state against the will of the individual supposedly delegating.
<dionysus69>
yea but anarchy can work only in green house conditions, it's very fragile and very risky, prone to self destruction
<apotheon>
. . . and now we're so far off-topic that we should probably stop discussing it.
<apotheon>
dionysus69: That's a claim.
<apotheon>
some claim other things
<dionysus69>
yea I've heard :D
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<dionysus69>
anyways, you are right quite an offtopic lmfo
<apotheon>
Anyway, I don't think there's any harm in trying to build a universal bridge.
<dionysus69>
yea I mean, if I start it, i will post it and hope people contribute xD
<apotheon>
I just think the risk of futility and failure are extremely high, and there's a risk of negative outcomes even if it works -- and, ultimately, it may fragment the community more by ending up with a unification pool of users *plus* increasing numbers of other channels on various platforms where people go because they don't like the unification result.
<ian|>
long live mailing lists
<apotheon>
. . . and I think Salesforce would be unhappy with the idea of Slack being part of a unified whole with other things. I'm not sure whether Discord would be unhappy with it.
<apotheon>
Mailing lists offer a lot of benefits lacking in these "chat" platforms, yeah.
<dionysus69>
I just want the next email
<apotheon>
Something like the ruby-talk mailing list can certainly be combined with a forum (and has been combined with a forum), too.
<dionysus69>
IRC is pretty old, lets say, next IRC
<ian|>
an improved IRC protocol should be doable
<ian|>
i wouldn't know what would need improvement though
<dionysus69>
yea, but the whole idea is to write it in ruby xD
<apotheon>
IRC is stable in ways that Slack isn't; it's more accessible without everyone having to buy into more restrictive technology options, too.
<ian|>
someone could take a lot of market share from Slack/Discord to IRC with a stellar cross-plat client
<apotheon>
What IRC mostly needs is 1. clients that can make up for features of Slack that aren't in IRC and 2. more consideration for security in the protocol.
<dionysus69>
OSIMAS (open source instant messanger as a service) will be made eventually, it would be cool if the first cool one was made in ruby
<apotheon>
dionysus69: Write some IRC clients in Ruby, and release them under the most permissive licenses possible.
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<dionysus69>
apotheon: you mean like a website to access existing IRC channels?
<apotheon>
No, I mean like an actual end-user system client.
<dionysus69>
that's not what I am saying though, what I am saying though is mostly the backend, and it could be coupled with any IM that wants to be coupled with
<apotheon>
Also, write some mobile device clients for IRC that aren't just completely awful.
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<dionysus69>
that needs investment
<apotheon>
Hell, the simple act of connecting to IRC in all the Android clients I've tried is largely incomprehensible.
<dionysus69>
I am not a mobile dev :P
<apotheon>
dionysus69: If you want people to actually use your backend, stay away from restrictions in the license. Maximum uptake requires maximum legal compatibility.
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<dionysus69>
so the single backend for all clients whether its slack/mobile-irc/mobile-discord/thunderbird-irc
<dionysus69>
I think it sounds like a reality, in the future
<dionysus69>
I am talking about Open source project, 0 restrictions
<apotheon>
Many open source projects are pretty restrictive.
<dionysus69>
whoever makes a good commercial product out of it great for them, but the base will be free to use, like the email and IRC protocols are free to use and aren't usurped upon like slack facebook and discord
<apotheon>
For instance, you can't use a GPLed library in a project with the MIT License.
<dionysus69>
when people say open source I hear MIT
<apotheon>
okay, works for me
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<dionysus69>
GPL is kinda restrictive, wants the brand to be dragged along or something like that, as I remember
<apotheon>
Using a copyfree license (like the MIT License) is critical for uptake of protocols.
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<apotheon>
I'm pretty sure that cjdns is doing so poorly in uptake in part because of the licensing.
<apotheon>
Nobody can just drop the code into their existing projects.
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<dionysus69>
hmm I guess
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<eyeris>
With RBS in ruby3 how can I specify a typed keyword parameter with a default value? E.g. 'def foo(a_str: "bar")' -- how can I annotate 'a_str' as a String while also keeping the "bar" default value?
<eyeris>
Nevermind -- now I get they are in separate files. The similarity in the structure makes that less than obvious at first glance :)
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<AndreYuhai>
How can I remove the parantheses in a string "(baz) foo (bar)" -> "foo"
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<apotheon>
It might actually make sense to say `.gsub(/\([^)]* *\)/, '').strip` for a little more generality of applicability.
<apotheon>
unless I'm missing some problem with that
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<AndreYuhai>
havenwood: Yes, thank you!
<AndreYuhai>
apotheon: oh I am checking that as well to understand the difference
<apotheon>
The only difference is that it optionally matches spaces after each parenthesized substring, which could help with cases where the parenthesized substrings come between non-parenthesized substrings.
<eddyout>
Hello all, I'm trying to call reduce on a hash to build a string but the accumulator value isn't modified and then gets set as nil after the first iteration. I don't understand why.
<AndreYuhai>
apotheon: could you give an example please for the second one? I couldn't really get what that is for.
<AndreYuhai>
Isn't it just replacing the space inside parantheses?
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<apotheon>
eddyout: It took me a bit to look, because I realized I had to activate scripting to see your paste, but . . .
<apotheon>
eddyout: . . . the problem seems to be that the block you pass to reduce returns nil.
<apotheon>
eddyout: This should fix it. memo + v; puts "key: #{k}, val: #{v}, accum: #{memo}"; memo
<apotheon>
note the extra "memo" at the end
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<DerekNonGeneric>
havenwood, do you (or anyone else) know of a way to install a version of ruby specified in a .ruby-version file that does not involve building the runtime from source? I think `rbenv install` is doing this and it is quite slow. Are there precompiled binaries?
<eddyout>
I'll be sure to post to dpaste.org next time, thank you for your help.
<apotheon>
glad to help
<apotheon>
I like sprunge, but some people might not like the command line nature of it.
<apotheon>
dpaste seems to work fine without scripting turned on in the browser
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<eddyout>
Ok cool, I'll check it out. Thanks for the script as well, I'm relatively new to programming and appreciate the recommendations.
<apotheon>
Feel free to ignore relative irrelevancies from me if they just get in the way of learning things, I guess.
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<apotheon>
DerekNonGeneric: Nothing reasonable comes to mind, by the way. Hopefully havenwood has an idea; he's pretty knowledgeable.
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<DerekNonGeneric>
apotheon, I probably missed a step somewhere because even after running ´rbenv install`, running ´ruby --version´ prints a version different than the one specified in the ´.ruby-version` file. In node, nvm has ´nvm use´, is there an equivalent somewhere?
<apotheon>
Did you do the setup stuff for rbenv in your shell rc file and so on?
<apotheon>
. . . and maybe you need to start a new shell to pick up the changes, or run the relevant stuff from the rc file in the current shell.
<DerekNonGeneric>
I believe I did everything correctly since running `rbenv local` is printing the correct version
<apotheon>
I wonder whether the entries in your $PATH are in the wrong order.
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<DerekNonGeneric>
apotheon, I'm guessing that `sudo apt-get install rbenv`is not the preferred way to install this on debian/ubuntu
<DerekNonGeneric>
this put `/root/.rbenv/bin` as the first thing in my path
<apotheon>
I haven't used Linux-based systems much for a long time, but the last time I had to use Ubuntu and wanted rbenv I installed it by following directions in the rbenv GitHub readme.
<nakilon>
loop do tap do ... next if ... next if ... next if ... end sleep t end
<nakilon>
is there a way neater than with a tap? I just want to "go for next iteration with a garanteed piece of code (such as "sleep t") executed in the end
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<adam12>
nakilon: ensure statement?
<nakilon>
adam12 does it work in a loop{} ? and I don't want to execute it on exception
<adam12>
nakilon: I'd guard on $! then. And depending on your ruby version, it should work in a loop, since blocks became implict begin/end statements in like 2.4 or 2.5
<cahoots>
hi, in the 3.0 release it shows the jit version being a lot faster, how do i toggle the jit on/off? is it on by default?
<cahoots>
(i'm just using 3.0 via `rbenv shell 3.0.0`)
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<leftylink>
hmm. I know in previous versions you say ruby --jit. I will be happy if it is indeed faster; haven't seen it really make any of my advent of code things faster... haven't tried it on other things
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