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<whitequark> awygle: hi
<whitequark> what *is* your timezone anyway?
<awygle> whitequark: o hai
<awygle> PST. Or PDT. Whichever one it is now...
<awygle> West coast US, same as azonenberg
<whitequark> kk
<whitequark> so regarding next steps on glasgow-jtag, can you help me with the iCE40 footprint?
<whitequark> I'll probably be fine with the smaller ones, but this one scares me
<whitequark> lemme do something with issues so that we don't duplicate work
<awygle> whitequark: sure, no problem
<whitequark> "Non-Configurable Chip Select. This pin must be hard wired to logical 1 state (VCC). Device will not operate with this pin left floating or held to logical 0 (VSS).
<whitequark> lol what
<whitequark> oooh we can use a cheaper EEPROM
<awygle> lmao Good Chip
<whitequark> ... hm no
<whitequark> two EEPROMs are cheaper than one EEPROM with sane addressing
<whitequark> this is ridiculou
<GitHub118> [Glasgow-JTAG] whitequark opened issue #7: ON Semi CAT24M01WI-GT3 footprint https://github.com/whitequark/Glasgow-JTAG/issues/7
<GitHub106> [Glasgow-JTAG] whitequark opened issue #8: Lattice ICE40UP5K-SG48ITR QFN-48 https://github.com/whitequark/Glasgow-JTAG/issues/8
<GitHub152> [Glasgow-JTAG] whitequark opened issue #9: TI TPS73101DBVR SOT-23-5 https://github.com/whitequark/Glasgow-JTAG/issues/9
<GitHub131> [Glasgow-JTAG] whitequark opened issue #10: TI DAC081C081CIMK TSOT-6 https://github.com/whitequark/Glasgow-JTAG/issues/10
<GitHub134> [Glasgow-JTAG] whitequark opened issue #11: TI ADC081C021CIMM MSOP-8 https://github.com/whitequark/Glasgow-JTAG/issues/11
<GitHub61> [Glasgow-JTAG] whitequark opened issue #12: ON Semi FXMA108BQX QFN-20 https://github.com/whitequark/Glasgow-JTAG/issues/12
<whitequark> awygle: do we try to add e.g. ON Semi CAT24C256 as an alias for MCP 24LC256?
<whitequark> I wonder what the KiCAD policy is
<awygle> that seems aliasable to me but i have no idea what kicad policy is
<rqou> i still can't believe you trust kicad libs
<rqou> let me know how it goes
<awygle> it's amazing how good my fat cat is at just *poof* vanishing
<rqou> lol cats
<rqou> need more catpix :P
<whitequark> rqou: you misunderstand
<whitequark> in my case, "kicad libs will be trustworthy" isn't an observation
<whitequark> it's a threat
<rqou> heh, i personally wouldn't burn the time/money to make sure they're all correct
<rqou> whereas if _i_ mess up my own footprints then it's definitely my fault
<whitequark> that doesn't make any sense.
<whitequark> even if I spend as much time validating them as I would validating my own footprints, that's still a win because a) I don't have to draw them b) I don't have to think of a standard to draw them to
<awygle> argh kicad uses the "epad numbered as N+1" convention rather than the obviously superior "epad numbered as 0" convention
<awygle> bummer
<whitequark> yeah kicad has a few idiosyncrasies
<whitequark> wait until you see how it connects several pads to the same logical pin
<whitequark> now *that* is some serious bullshit
<rqou> i use "epad numbered as N+1"
* awygle tabs over to irc to complain about stacking pins - awww sniped
<rqou> whitequark: oh, you mean the "one visible pin and several invisible ones at the same coordinate"
<awygle> i grabbed a symbol from somebody online for smolfpga that did that and cursed them out
<whitequark> (extremely opensource voice) what's the problem it works
<awygle> sorry, "xess", whoever you are
<rqou> i do it too
<rqou> i thought that's the "correct" way?
<whitequark> yes
<whitequark> that's what i'm complaining about
<whitequark> it's ridiculous
<awygle> rqou: every professional board i've seen has a logical pin for every physical pin
<rqou> also, making symbols for "mechanical" components _sucks_
<whitequark> I'm still firmly in kicad over eagle for a good bunch of other reasons but it's absurd that these hacks are needed
<rqou> "does your usb connector have an id pin? how about shield pads? how many pins should be on the schematic symbol for shield pads? 1 or 4?"
<rqou> repeat for every other "mechanical" component ever
<awygle> 1 pin for "shield"
<awygle> id pin is just a pin
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<awygle> "pins not connected on the footprint may be omitted from the symbol" oh come on
<rqou> now "does this sd card socket have a card detect pin? one pin or two?"
<rqou> "does this pushbutton have 2 pins or 4 pins"
<awygle> i don't understand your complaint
<awygle> like... you _have_ a pushbutton in front of you
<awygle> how many pins does it have?
<whitequark> lol
<rqou> it has 4, but the pairs are shorted together
<rqou> inside the button
<awygle> sure but there are 4 pins. so 4 pins. although in kicadland it would be two "real" pins and two hidden pins
<rqou> goddammit
<rqou> btw, the kicad footprint for this has two pins only
<whitequark> awygle: hm
<rqou> and the footprint just has two pads with the same pin number
<whitequark> ^ because that means kicad knows they're internally connected
<whitequark> and lets you route to either
<awygle> eh ok
<awygle> that's not an unreasonable choice
<awygle> whitequark: san check - the "overlapping pins" thing is not used for VCC, because it's a "power input", yes?
<rqou> is kicad erc actually usable?
<rqou> IME it never works right thanks to libraries not having their pins declared correctly
<rqou> also, i just remembered discovering the other day that kicad's 74xx parts _still_ use the oldschool "implicit pwr/gnd" style
<rqou> which is just nopenopenope
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<awygle> whelp, found a kicad bug
<rqou> lol
<rqou> that's not news :P
<rqou> btw, are you two using nightly?
<awygle> i am
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<whitequark> awygle: hmm I'm not sure actually!
<rqou> be careful, i was told there are significant incompatible changes
<whitequark> between nightly and stable? yes
<whitequark> that's why we're using nightly
<rqou> oh, i see that was a reply to something else
<awygle> whitequark: there's already a 48-pin QFN footprint matching the ice40up
<awygle> i did the symbol
<whitequark> awygle: that was fast
<awygle> what would you like me to do with it? a library in glasgow-jtag or a PR to kicad libs or both?
<whitequark> hmm how good is kicad at replacing symbols with other symbols...
<awygle> as far as i can tell, "not"
<whitequark> awygle: I guess drop the library in hardware/ subdirectory if it's not too much work
<whitequark> hopefully that one will never be actually used but if kicad drags their feet on merging PRs it will be useful
<awygle> wilco
<whitequark> feel free to take other footprint issues if you're bored / find drawing symbols exciting for some reason
<whitequark> i'll occasionally grab some either
<awygle> sounds good
<awygle> completely off topic - do you have a suggestion for how to feed one of my cats drugged food without the other one eating it?
<whitequark> what formulation
<awygle> a powder mixed into the food
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<awygle> called.....
<awygle> panacour (fenbenzadole)
<whitequark> *looks into crystal ball* sounds like antiparasitic
<awygle> that is correct. lungworm.
<rqou> :(
<awygle> of course the _skinny_ cat is the one that got sick
<whitequark> I don't really see any way other than like, closing the door
<awygle> my poor cats/doors/rugs/ears
<whitequark> what, is the fat cat so attracted by food?
<awygle> well problem a) is the fat cat wants the food, problem b) is the cats don't like being separated, and problem c) is the skinny cat doesn't like the taste of the medicine and basically doesn't care about food at all
<awygle> i closed doors last night and it took ~3 hours to get him to eat the damn food
<rqou> sounds like "fun"
<rqou> also, we need more catpix :P
<awygle> lol
<awygle> you're the only one who ever likes them on twitter :p
<whitequark> awygle: sounds like you need to http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/296/180/18d.png
<awygle> lol
<awygle> i am gonna ask the vet tomorrow if there's a pill formulation of this stuff, but my hopes are not high
<whitequark> could also find an injectable
<whitequark> cats are surprisingly chill about IM
<awygle> yeah i've done that before, that wouldn't be too bad
<awygle> i cat-sat a diabetic cat for three months once
<whitequark> that sounds depressing
<rqou> awygle are these two actually your cats?
<awygle> apparently some nontrivial percentage of diabetic cats just... get better one day
<awygle> rqou: yup
<whitequark> awygle: HUH
<whitequark> I had no idea
<rqou> also awygle, just curious, do you have roommates?
<awygle> rqou: nope
<rqou> so genderswapped crazy cat lady :P
<awygle> i mean that's not _in_accurate
<whitequark> awygle has just two cats
<awygle> i got two so they could keep each other company
<awygle> i intended to get one older and one younger but... sometimes they pick you lol
<awygle> aww they're touching paws under the door :(
<whitequark> the cat that lives with me and roommate in RU has *definitely* picked us
<whitequark> quite literally
<whitequark> she (a stray cat, that is) went up the stairs with me and demanded to be let in
<awygle> haha, awesome
<whitequark> it's the cat that can open our front door from either side
<awygle> that's where my childhood cat came from, she jumped in the car with my mother
<whitequark> it's a pretty damn heavy door too, I have no idea how the physics actually works out
<whitequark> *especially* the "either side" part
<awygle> i give it like a week before skinnycat can open the bedroom door at least. which will be bad for my sleep.
<whitequark> the door is biased to close if left on its own so if you hear a thud like six in the morning that's the cat returning from the street
<whitequark> ha, bedroom door.
<rqou> lolol
<whitequark> there's a door with a cat flap
<rqou> i want a cat :(
<whitequark> this cat doesn't give a fuck about cat flaps. she just jumps on the door and swings it wide open
<whitequark> like a boss
<whitequark> you can walk her like a dog too, except, unlike dogs, she doesn't actually need a leash
<whitequark> which isn't to say she *won't* walk on a leash, it's just pointless
<whitequark> awygle: oh and link the kicad PR in the issue
<rqou> how's the kicad community nowadays?
<rqou> i heard it's much better since wayne became the leader
<whitequark> my limited interactions in the libs repo seemed fine
<rqou> nice
<awygle> god i hate kicad
<awygle> whitequark: so the lattice .lib a) is "legacy" b) only exists in the "old" repo
<awygle> i'm not sure what to do with that. do i submit an "FPGA_Lattice" lib to the "new" repo that only has my footprint?
<whitequark> awygle: yes
<whitequark> pretend the old repo doesn't exist
<awygle> mk
<rqou> what about bikesheds in the libs community? e.g. "i want minimal/hand-solderable/other nonstandard footprints"
<rqou> whitequark: why pretend the old repo doesn't exist?
<awygle> whitequark: does "Legacy" actually mean anything? do i have to save in some new format?
<whitequark> awygle: it actually does
<whitequark> but nightly saves in the new format automatically
<awygle> ah ok
<whitequark> so you don't need to do anything special
<whitequark> rqou: the footprints aren't up to the new guidelines
<rqou> "the" footprints? "the" new guidelines?
<whitequark> hm?
<rqou> which footprints aren't up to which guidelines?
<rqou> and what if somebody really does want really nonstandard footprints? (e.g. @bml_hubbard and his "QFN with giant hole" footprints)
<rqou> hmm "Features introduced in nightly builds are not allowed in official KiCad library files."
<rqou> how does this fit with what you said earlier about the "legacy" format?
<whitequark> the "new" libraries are explicitly nightly-only right now
<whitequark> but kicad 5 is in rc2
<whitequark> so they'll become released soon
<rqou> there are "new" libraries?
<rqou> i suppose i haven't been keeping up
<rqou> hmm, the rule is for 100mil grid for schematics?
<rqou> i tend to use 50 mil to fit more stuff on a sheet
<rqou> huh, hidden pins are in general not allowed, but "oldschool 74xx implicit power/gnd" is?
<rqou> that's weird
<awygle> ugh kicad has a CLA? weird.
<whitequark> "KiCad library data is released under the CC-BY-SA 4.0 license (see more information here)."
<whitequark> I'm ... not sure how this actually works
<whitequark> do they just want to make it extra sure everyone understands they're submitting data under CC-BY-SA?
<rqou> oh yeah, i found that to be really weird too
<rqou> but they have some kind of exception
<rqou> so that you can actually use them in commercial designs
<awygle> my understanding is that by signing a CLA you license the stuff you submit to kicad in perpetuity, so that if they decide to change licenses later it's easier?
<awygle> i didn't actually read theirs, probably should have
<whitequark> this is literally all their CLA says
<awygle> oh really? jeez lol
<awygle> that does not seem necessary then
<whitequark> yeah it's weird
<rqou> hmm, the KLC guidelines don't handle bikesheds like "IPC minimal or hand-solderable"
<whitequark> rqou: for passives you can freely choose the footprint to go with any symbol
<whitequark> it's not either-or
<whitequark> for ICs they go with whatever the datasheet says
<whitequark> of course, nothing prevents you from having a local override
<rqou> when i looked a few days ago there was only one type of "generic QFP"
<rqou> *one type for each pin count
<rqou> and it had smaller pads than at least ST's recommendation
<whitequark> that's a bug
<rqou> but maybe it agrees with some other vendor?
<awygle> argh. how do i tell kicad to update the footprint library?
<rqou> not even all the vendors even have consistent recommended footprints
<awygle> my copy has "housings", not "packages" apparently
<whitequark> there are lots of variants
<whitequark> awygle: oh ugh that issue
<whitequark> nuke ~/.config/kicad basically
<whitequark> it's left over from v4 and it confused itself
<awygle> whitequark: i am regrettably on windows
<rqou> whitequark: https://kicad.github.io/footprints/Package_QFP i'm looking at QFP48 and there's only 3 variants
<rqou> and they're apparently based on micrel/microchip's recommendation
<rqou> which for some reason was smaller than st's
<whitequark> awygle: del /s /q %APPDATA%\kicad
<rqou> although tbh the footprints that i personally use all have dubious origins anyways
<rqou> even though some of them are board-proven
<whitequark> rqou: kicad has vendor-prefixed footprints for this
<rqou> i mean, ST's and kicad's are almost the same size
<rqou> they're different by something like 0.05mm in the width
<rqou> (of each pad)
<rqou> so it'll probably fit
<whitequark> oh
<whitequark> that probably doesn't matter
<whitequark> 50 micron
<rqou> also one of them had longer pads? but i don't remember which one
<rqou> but yeah, even "generic QFP" can have variants and bikeshedding
<whitequark> sure
<rqou> so i wonder how kicad plans to balance between hobbyists asking for very-hand-soldering-optimized footprints (as an extreme, @bml_hubbard's) vs professionals wanting the smolest board possible?
<whitequark> I dunno?
<rqou> and this is why everybody NIHs them :P
<whitequark> how about
<whitequark> asking
<rqou> we should have parametric footprints :P
<whitequark> yes, I was going to build that software
<whitequark> but then mental health happened
<rqou> oh, that sucks :(
<whitequark> awygle: ha, I just realized that we're building basically three Dangerous Prototypes device in one
<awygle> The Most Dangerous Prototype
<rqou> you know, that was exactly what i was originally trying to do
<rqou> since the DP products honestly suck
<whitequark> it would be very easy to make it work as a 8-channel LA, just pass all the pins through
<whitequark> and the 16-channel LA would be only a little bit more work
<whitequark> although ideally the FPGA would be programmed properly, because that gives you higher bandwidth at small probe counts
<awygle> argh this process is infuriating
<awygle> i mean it's good and right to automatically verify compliance to library standards but still irritating as hell :p
<whitequark> hahaha
<whitequark> yup more violations
<awygle> those are the violations i wanted/expected to have
<rqou> O_o they have travis for libs?
<awygle> i _think_ they're just because i did a multi-part symbol
<whitequark> yes
<rqou> is this actually built into kicad or a set of external tools?
<awygle> so i'm gonna leave a comment on the PR and say "hey i think this is fine but please tell me what to do"
<rqou> and this is another reason why i just do my own libs :P
<whitequark> rqou: external tools
<rqou> lol
<awygle> sure would be nice if i could run it locally lol
<rqou> no wonder the scripting apis suck, they don't even dogfood it :P :P
<whitequark> you can?
<awygle> i'm sure you can, i just wish there was a button in the schematic library editor
<whitequark> yeah, that's true
<whitequark> so I think what it doesn't like is
<whitequark> VCCPLL (power output) being above VCC (power input)
<whitequark> GND being a bidirectional pin
<rqou> someone should force them to make the CI use only the kicad scripting apis so that the scripting apis improve :P
<awygle> i fixed both of those issues, they're just not in the images
<whitequark> oh
<whitequark> okay
<awygle> updating those now
<awygle> updated
<whitequark> nice, thanks!
<awygle> that's me for tonight i think. i'll see if there's any comments in the morning, if not i'll ping some people on #kicad maybe.
<whitequark> kk!
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<whitequark> awygle: hi
<awygle> whitequark: hello
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<whitequark> awygle: I'm stuck in LLVM compilation hell so I'll probably try to assemble a prototype from my devboards and write bitstream download code
<whitequark> any free time?
<awygle> whitequark: this evening perhaps, and the weekend
<awygle> I'm in the office for the next 4-5 hours
<whitequark> curses! foiled again (by timezones)
<awygle> :-). I can brainstorm and/or bikeshed if that's useful
<whitequark> hmm maybe!
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<awygle> good lord
<whitequark> awygle: any idea where lattice put pinout information?
<whitequark> as in actual pinout information and not just "RGB0" which arachne doesn't understand
<whitequark> nvm found it
<whitequark> who the fuck decided to map symbol pin IOB_16A to package pin 9
<awygle> yeah i was wondering about that
<awygle> maybe there are a lot more internal pins?
<awygle> but there's no bigger package
* whitequark programs the board
* whitequark resets it
* whitequark has hole burned in retina by the ultra bright RGB LED
<whitequark> seriously, I was staring at it at 45° and the entire center of my vision is unusable
* awygle winces
<awygle> Electrical Tape O'Clock
<whitequark> welding helmet o'clock
<awygle> oh yeah you're way better equipped than me for that sort of thing lol
* awygle pokes rqou to decap ice40s so we can answer questions about internal pin counts
<whitequark> uh?
<whitequark> I can decap them for you
<whitequark> just gimme a list of packages
<whitequark> does rqou even have a non-potato microscope? :P
<azonenberg> whitequark: you think thats bad
<azonenberg> look at 7 series pin numbering
<azonenberg> the io banks have numbers in the 10s and 30s
<azonenberg> rather than 0-1-2-3 like you'd expect
<whitequark> what
<azonenberg> ues
<awygle> rqou bought every ice40 part number and package a while back
<azonenberg> yes*
<azonenberg> whitequark: kintex7 fbg484 has banks numbered 13, 14, 15, 16, 33, 34, 115
<azonenberg> the triple digit numbers are GTX's
<whitequark> 115.
<azonenberg> the rest are HP and HR
<azonenberg> i forget which is which
<whitequark> did they choose it by a fair dice roll?
<awygle> "roll 2d12 for bank numbers"
<whitequark> more like 5d20
<awygle> yeah but you don't ever roll xd20 in dnd really
<azonenberg> whitequark: i think they have ranges 10...* are one type of bank
<azonenberg> 30...* are another
<azonenberg> 100...* are another
<azonenberg> etc
<azonenberg> but wow its coinfusing
<whitequark> azonenberg: they still dont start with 10
<azonenberg> whitequark: yeah idk
<azonenberg> its possible some of that may be things like unbonded ios or something
<azonenberg> looking at the ffg1156 kintex
<azonenberg> they have IO banks numbered 11-18
<azonenberg> and GT banks numbered 111-118
<awygle> see that's my theory on the ice40up except there _is_ no bigger package
<awygle> so it's a bito dd
<azonenberg> oh, it gets even more fun
<azonenberg> so the bank numbering might not correlate to HP vs HR
<azonenberg> because virtex7 has HP banks only
<whitequark> "It seems all but 115 in that sequence is part of an optimum solution for solving Rubik's cubes"
<azonenberg> And virtex7 FLG1930 has banks numbered 10...19, 30...39
<azonenberg> Then 113 - 118
<azonenberg> FLG1928 has transceivers numbered 110...119, 210...219 and IO banks 13...16, 33...36
<whitequark> azonenberg: there arent any pins xA yB such that x=y
<whitequark> the suffix is just pointless
<whitequark> it doesnt correlate with anything
<azonenberg> I wonder if the bank numbering is actually die position
<azonenberg> i.e. 1x = left side of die
<azonenberg> 2x = top side of die
<azonenberg> etc
<azonenberg> then transceivers have a third digit to indicate they're transceivers
<azonenberg> so 11x = left side GTs, 21x = right side GTs
<whitequark> none FPGA with left GTX
<azonenberg> lolol
<azonenberg> FLG1932 is pretty close to that
<azonenberg> The package is nearly 2000 balls and has only 300 GPIO
<azonenberg> ... and 72 transceivers
<whitequark> what... is the rest of it
<whitequark> power?
<whitequark> a transceiver is like 4 pins right?
<azonenberg> 2 tx, 2 rx, plus a bazillion power and ground, plus each 4 transceivers have two clock input diffpairs
<whitequark> that's still nearly a thousand power/ground pins
<azonenberg> solid gray square = ground
<azonenberg> boxed E and V = transceiver core and termination rails
<azonenberg> black and white checkerboard = Vcore
<azonenberg> black and white vertical box = block RAM supply
<azonenberg> oh and gray/white diagonal = VCCIO for GPIO banks
<azonenberg> whitequark: so yeah a thousand power/ground doesnt sound unreasonable if you look at the layout of the GTPs
<awygle> whitequark: i think Person On Twitter is right, the a and b is differential pair related
<azonenberg> whitequark: the kintex7 i am using in my switch has 285 GPIO and four GTXs in 484 balls, and the GPIO banks have a lower ground/power ratio per I/O than the transceivers do
<awygle> (note that this puts the two parts of a differential pair on pins 12 and 21)
<whitequark> azonenberg: that is fucking art
<whitequark> awygle: yeah I agree
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<awygle> i look forward to hybrid BGA/QFN packages to get good low-inductance grounds to increasingly high-speed transceivers
<azonenberg> awygle: unlikely to happen any time soon
<azonenberg> modern packages are already integrating decoupling caps
<azonenberg> at which point solder ball inductance becomes less of an issue
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<awygle> that's good because the thing i said is bad and dumb and should never ever happen
<whitequark> lol
<azonenberg> awygle: that being said, it would not surprise me if we see a move to LGAs at some point?
<sorear> Do those have better inductance?
<awygle> they can
<awygle> by making bigger pads than the commensurate balls
* awygle bulls ahead with the use of the word "commensurate" despite not being sure it applies in this context
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<qu1j0t3> corresponding?
<awygle> apparently commensurate means "corresponding in size or degree; in proportion." so commensurate land to the balls would definitionally have the same inductance
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<qu1j0t3> yeah, i know what commensurate means. i didn't dig fully into the semantics of your sentence tho
* qu1j0t3 should do some work :/
<awygle> i apparently didn't know what commensurate means, at least not well enough :p
<awygle> i completely missed "none fpga with left gtx" in here lol
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<rqou> awygle: not every package variation
<rqou> whitequark: i _do_ have a non-potato microscope, but not an xy stage
<rqou> also (drama) holy **** the @RealSexyCyborg situation right now is insane
<cr1901_modern> rqou: Please don't
<whitequark> awygle: trippy af
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<rqou> heh, apparently it's T-Mobile Austria's turn to receive some "free pentests"
<Ultrasauce_> I'm digging infosec twitter shitting on some intern, it's truly a great phenomenon
<lain> uh oh, twitter drama?
<lain> what have I missed lol
<lain> oooooh god why
<rqou> i wonder if this will be more hilarious than that oil and gas industry newsletter site? :P
<lain> haha
<lain> the shitposting is real
<rqou> i actually felt nonzero sympathy for that newsletter site since it was basically run by one (somewhat arrogant) person
<rqou> and "browser infosec people" are fucking awful at evangelism/marketing
<awygle> no way is that an authorized user
<awygle> somebody saw "we suck at security" and proved it
<rqou> er, i was talking about a different "free pentests" incident from a few months ago
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<rqou> anyways, i believe my comment still stands that "'browser infosec people' are fucking awful at evangelism/marketing"
<rqou> azonenberg, you're "infosec" right? thoughts on ^ ?
<awygle> "developers bad at communication - news at 11"
<rqou> mozilla at least has a "tech evangelism" team although idk if they can keep up with all the dumb ideas that come out of the rest of the company
<rqou> afaik they couldn't even get people to use css prefixing correctly to the point where firefox now honors certain -webkit prefixes
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<awygle> mozilla is so weirdly split-brain in this regard. like the whole pocket thing, or the "opt in to experiements" or whatever
<rqou> yeah, mozilla seems to really not understand how to do/sell any kind of strategic direction
<rqou> they also have a _weird_ org structure with a for-profit private entity owned by a 501(c)(3)
<rqou> also: "AOL renamed the Netscape Communications Corporation to New Aurora Corporation and transferred the Netscape brand to themselves. AOL sold the former Netscape company now known as New Aurora Corporation to Microsoft who in turn sold the former Netscape company again to Facebook; the Netscape brand remained with AOL. [clarification needed] The former Netscape company is currently a non-operating subsidiary of
<rqou> welcome to the tech industry :P
<awygle> TIL you can be charged per broken bone even if you don't get surgery
<rqou> what
<rqou> "maybe you should have made a choice to break fewer bones"
<rqou> :P
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<awygle> i really want a reason to use silicon carbide semiconductors just so i can get them from a company called "wolfspeed"
<rqou> shoulda taken ee113/213 :P
<awygle> it turns out SiC is not very good under radiation
<awygle> GaN is great tho
<rqou> wtf are you building?!
<jn__> you should make a processor and run wolfenstein on it
<awygle> nothing currently, that's just what originally lead me to look at alternative FET materials
<rqou> ever use even more exotic devices like HEMTs?
<awygle> i ended up designing a charge pump gate driver made from discrete BJTs to drive an eGaNFET as basically just a switch
<rqou> for what application?!
<awygle> (BJTs deal with radiation quite a bit more gracefully than FETs, their beta just drops instead of the oxide rupturing)
<awygle> cubesats
<awygle> duh
<rqou> why do you need a GaN fet?
<awygle> and i've "used HEMTs" in the sense that i've used RFICs containing HEMTs, i'm pretty sure
<rqou> also how are you so good at RF?
<awygle> because GaNFETs have low Rdson and high radiation resistance (like 5 MRad iirc? smoething huge)
<awygle> and the last thing you want is for your "power enable for the whole spacecraft" switch to fail open
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<rqou> this photo isn't itar controlled? :P :P
<rqou> also, not nearly as exotic-looking as i expected
<rqou> it just looks like your usual proprietary-package power fet
<awygle> that's the uninteresting package
<awygle> the backside has a more interesting one
<rqou> also, space+oshpark is allowed?
<awygle> prototype
<rqou> no "security concerns?"
<rqou> although i guess oshpark is a US company
<awygle> it depends what you're doing
<awygle> sufficiently shitty spacecraft stuff doesn't fall under itar
<awygle> and some stuff isn't intrinsically spacecrafty
<awygle> like ganfet drivers
<awygle> https://epc-co.com/epc/portals/0/epc/gen4-egan-fets-intro.png this is what the other package looks like, the blue things
<awygle> they are _small_
<rqou> btw do you have a signed agreement with the government that you will always abide by itar? dig apparently has and so can't touch certain RE like microbolometer firmware
<awygle> i don't, no
<awygle> but i intend to do so anyway because i enjoy not being fined or put in prison
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<rqou> just do the RE outside the US :P
<rqou> (idk if that's actually sufficient)
<awygle> do the RE outside the US... and never come back
<rqou> what does itar actually restrict?
<lain> the clue is in the name
<awygle> Everything on the USML
<rqou> but does "go to another country to perform RE" fall under itar?
<awygle> Depends on if you're found guilty
<rqou> lol
<rqou> true enough
<awygle> If I was prosecuting that case I'd argue that you're exporting technical secrets (covered) from an American asset (you, a citizen) to a foreign national
<lain> the thing is a country can always just not let you back in, and realistically I'm not sure it's possible to fight that :P
<lain> even if it's unfounded
<balrog> that's the list
<lain> but does viewing the list put you on a list?
<lain> :P
<rqou> i think you should be able to fight it if you're a citizen of the country? but who knows nowadays in MAGA-land
<awygle> Right. Be careful because even if it's not on the USML it's probably on the CCL so there are still *some* rules
<rqou> does anybody know if you can get "disappeared" for leaking itar secrets?
<lain> it's probably fair to say you can get disappeared for doing anything that angers someone sufficiently high up the food chain
<awygle> Practically speaking, yes. Legally I don't think so.
<lain> for varying definitions of "disappeared"
<awygle> There's a difference between ITAR and classified
<lain> even within classified there's a whole world of classifications
<awygle> mhm
<rqou> "but her emails!!1111oneoneone" /s
<awygle> but i bet you could pull the "national security" card on anybody at any time
<lain> ^
<rqou> true enough
<lain> why the heck did FLIR design the lepton like this
<rqou> like what?
<lain> specifically: you have to read 3x the data because it spits out 2 incomplete frame packets for every valid one
<rqou> wtf
<rqou> also, why are you _also_ currently working on a microbolometer? are you trying to into space too?
<lain> I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, the first FLIR ONE (you know, the iphone accessory?) ran linux on a 400 MHz ARM processor
<lain> I'm just making a tiny thermal camera thing
<rqou> not trying to unlock the fps? :P
<lain> ~ 1x1 inch, magnetic mount to stick it onto things, etc
<lain> I mean, I'd like to unlock the fps, but... that comes later
<rqou> lain gonna get disappeared :P :P :P
<lain> wheee
<rqou> i wonder how many analysts at various TLAs are monitoring this channel at this point? :P
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<balrog> rqou: you don't think TLAs are interested in FPGA RE?
<balrog> (not that they haven't figured it out already, at least some of it)
<awygle> this is why i don't do RE, just write software
<rqou> that, and the various offtopic that shows up in this channel
<lain> if I were a TLA I'd take a more direct approach and get engineeres inside FPGA companies to sneak out documents
<balrog> I'm sure they're also doing that
<awygle> if i were a TLA i'd just dig up the scandals of executives or something
<awygle> "we're the CIA tell us how this works" "ok"
<lain> but even the "hard way" is probably pretty easy when you have a dozen salaried reverse engineers drooling over something to tear apart :P
<rqou> honestly they probably already have docs since xilinx seems to work pretty closely with the us government
<lain> on that note, I should be less distracted and more productive so I can, like, afford to do silly RE things
<awygle> both players have enormous government contracts
<rqou> i thought it was mostly xilinx and actel/microsemi?
<awygle> atmel is intel now
<awygle> err altera
<rqou> yeah i know that
<awygle> intel has huge government contracts
<rqou> but iirc _altera_ didn't have nearly as much as xilinx/
<lain> ME Disable Bit :3
<awygle> i don't know whether or not altera did pre-intel
<rqou> xilinx was pretty blatant with their huge pile of military/extended-temp/aerospace parts
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<awygle> sigh... i really want to do a discrete power amplifier design. somebody find me a 5W RF silicon transistor that's not 50$+.
<rqou> don't inhale any BeO :P
<rqou> awygle how did you learn to do RF?
<awygle> rqou: did a bunch of it, mostly
<balrog> something like a 2N3866 is not enough?
<awygle> also played with simulators and talked to people who knew more than i did
<balrog> ah, that's 1W
<balrog> 5W power dissipation :P
<awygle> balrog: also its fT is 200 MHz, that's barely RF :P
<awygle> er, 800 MHz i guess
<balrog> awygle: are you doing microwave?
<awygle> balrog: originally i was looking for 2.1 GHz
<awygle> but since i'm out of the satellite game 1 GHz is kind of where i'm setting the lower end
<awygle> this GAN HEMT is only 20$
<balrog> the digikey selector points me toward the MAX2601ESA / MAX2602ESA
<awygle> balrog: it's not super clear but i think those are PSat=1W
<balrog> ah
<balrog> well good luck then
<awygle> i guess if i'm just screwing around i can always design something smaller
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<lain> I forget if I mentioned in here, we've been chasing a power anomaly at our place.. 11khz and 22khz noise (it looks like a half-wave rectified sine wave, several volts peak to peak, riding on the mains)
<lain> we are now pretty confident we know what it is
<awygle> oh? do tell
<lain> we share a polepig with our neighbors, and they have a rather large house. oil burning furnaces are common in this area (though we don't have one). we think most likely it is a defective ignition system in an oil burning furnace, assuming they have one
<lain> a friend thought of that after looking at the waveforms, and some googling confirms some oil burners will run the ingition system full time while burning, and often have defective grounding or transformers, such that they leak a bunch of 10-30 khz noise onto the lines
<awygle> ah, that's cool
<lain> considering it correlates extremely well with outside temperature, I'm content to believe that
<awygle> you should send someone over to make them turn it off and verify :p
<lain> haha
<rqou> or just figure out a way to inject damaging EMI back into their house :P :P
<lain> yeah I haven't quite figured out how to deal with the human side of it yet
<lain> this should only happen if their igniter is defective in some way, which they're almost surely unaware of
<awygle> "hi, we've never met before, but you're raising my noise floor by 0.1 dB, so please turn off your furnace and freeze to death?"
<lain> ^
<lain> haha
<lain> the noise from various appliances is pretty obnoxious