sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<tad_>
Hello all
<kanzure>
greetz.jpg
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<oleganza>
What was the rationale for the "chain code" entropy in BIP32? Is it to allow sharing a pubkey by just cutting off the chain code to prevent access to the child keys?
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<gmaxwell>
oleganza: "sharing a pubkey" ... as every transaction in the network does? Without the chaincode bip32 provides no public unlinkability between addresses, which was kind of the point.
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<sipa>
gmaxwell: that's not true
<sipa>
as long as you'd never use a parent key as a key on the network in its own right, you could still safely derive other keys from it
<gmaxwell>
I think we're suffering from a different understanding of oleg's question.
<sipa>
perhaps :)
<gmaxwell>
By chain code entropy I was understanding it as asking why things were P+H(index)G or likewise.
<sipa>
I am understanding it as why is the derivation Pchild_1 = Pparent + H(Pparent || chaincode || i)*G, and not just Pchild_i = Pparent + H(Pparent || i)*G
<sipa>
the latter would also be unlinkable
<sipa>
s long as Pparent is never published
<sipa>
the answer is that I didn't like the reduction in entropy from repeated hashing, and wanted to compensate for that
<gmaxwell>
Fair enough.
<gmaxwell>
Though there is another advantage: I can give you a master pubkey, and reveal that a pair is linked, without revealing any other linkages.
<sipa>
It was also inspired by armory's earlier scheme, which did something similar
<gmaxwell>
Using a singnature over the discrete log differences.
<sipa>
gmaxwell: ha, indeed. that was not by design though
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<gmaxwell>
maybe not by your design. but if you look being able to prove a linkage was proposed by alan and I back yonder though I'm not sure if it was before BIP32 itself it was certantly before it was widely used.
<gmaxwell>
(as an alternative to the x509 crud)
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<oleganza>
sipa: that's exactly what i meant. Sorry for unclear question, gmaxwell.
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<oleganza>
sipa: so assuming we can just avoid publishing the parent, another reason for chain code is to throw in some extra entropy. Could you explain why do you worry about "reduction of entropy" through repeated hashing. What's the theoretical risk there?
<sipa>
oleganza: it's not a rational concern
<oleganza>
Do you mean that hashing "down" into hierarchy reduces entropy, or hashing "horizontally" (from one parent, using different indices) reduces entropy?
<sipa>
down
<sipa>
the output of a hash function is restricted, so multiple parent keys would (at given child index) result in the same child key occasionally
<sipa>
if the hash function is perfect, you get a factor 1-1/e reduction in keyspace from one hashing step
<sipa>
further hashing steps (each with their own fixed index) reduce it further, but very slowly
<adiabat>
you can hash a *bunch* of times before that becomes a problem :)
<sipa>
i'm aware
<sipa>
it's not a real concern
<adiabat>
bip 44 is what, 5 steps I think
<adiabat>
but yeah, in that sense, sha256d is weaker than sha256
<sipa>
you need astronomical numbers of hashing steps before this becomes a measurable problem
<oleganza>
so it's then a security margin against imperfection of the hash function and avoiding "telegramming" (== being defensive about making needlessly less safe decisions in the name of marginal performance gains)?
<sipa>
eh, unsure
<sipa>
as gmaxwell points out, it has advantages
<sipa>
though i think the original reason for including it (at least from my perspective) is not relevant
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<oleganza>
gmaxwell: ah, i see the point about proving the linkage of a pair. Neat.
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