ELLIOTTCABLE changed the topic of #elliottcable to: a _better_ cult
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<glowcoil> alexgordon: ooh what's the playground thing
<alexgordon> glowcoil: basically built-in bret victor
<glowcoil> alexgordon: yesssssss
<glowcoil> alexgordon: i'm 100% pleased with swift
<alexgordon> yep
<alexgordon> reddit Doesn't Get It™
<alexgordon> they're all "boo apple"
<glowcoil> yeah sure apple has a lot of bad things about it but like
<glowcoil> when windows had control over everything they shat the bed repeatedly
<glowcoil> and apple makes a really really nice programming language
<alexgordon> reddit glows about C#
<alexgordon> shits on Swift
<alexgordon> ahhh fanboyism
<glowcoil> lol yeah
<purr> lol
<glowcoil> the thing i'm really frustrated about swift is that there's basically no async/concurrency/chans/coroutines/generators
<glowcoil> which i guess makes sense because of the degree to which it interops with shitty things like c
<glowcoil> and so it's kind of the best we can hope for for what it is
<alexgordon> lol I've taken it upon myself to correct all the Swift mistakes on reddit
<purr> lol
<alexgordon> not sure why
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<whitequark> I like swift
<whitequark> although rust *is* for game engines absolutely, and swift is absolutely not
<whitequark> swift is basically, macruby but designed from scratch for apple ecosystem
<whitequark> and not bolted on
<whitequark> there's more like this thing, "game engines"
<whitequark> theres's "game engines" as "lots of very tight loops" which rust truly excels at
<whitequark> there's also "game engines" as "lots of very weird logic" which rust can excel at but perhaps not atm
<whitequark> whoa, swift has ADTs and pattern matching
<whitequark> I *really* like swift
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<joelteon> it has free bridging, too
<glowcoil> aw alex is gone
<glowcoil> lol
<purr> lol
<glowcoil> whitequark: yeah! isn't it fucking great?
<whitequark> well I like it from language design standpoint
<whitequark> otherwise it's kinda
<whitequark> irrelevant
<whitequark> "lol we made proprietary ocaml with c syntax" k
<whitequark> I would use it for apple's walled garden because if you don't like walled gardens you're in a wrong fucking era and there's no choice on mobile anyway
<whitequark> otherwise I'm not even going to mention it *shrug*
<purr> ¯\(º_o)/¯
<glowcoil> whitequark: sure, it's only relevant in the apple ecosystem but like, i'm much more likely to write some iphone games now
<glowcoil> whitequark: because it will be a much better experiences
<glowcoil> experience*
<whitequark> I'm glad for a bunch of people living in a completely separate universe from me
<whitequark> ^ sums up my feeling about swift *perfectly*
<glowcoil> haha
<glowcoil> programming is made up of a lot of separate universes and people state their value judgments way too universally
<glowcoil> most arguments are stupid and irrelevant to both participants because they have entirely different value systems
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<joelteon> xcode's repl is so fucking crazy
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<eligrey> ml beautifier
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<devyn> glowcoil: yes well when _why vanished there was a big effort to see what git repos of his people still had and could get back up on github. I happened to have unholy for some reason, and no one else did so I offered to put that up, and then whymirror came along and mirrored all of our emergency repos
<devyn> glowcoil, whitequark: yeah a friend of mine messaged me all excited about Swift and I was like… yeah, it's good news for Mac developers I guess but the language itself is about as rut as it gets (which I suppose is a good thing since ObjC is awkward)
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<glowcoil> devyn: ah cool
<glowcoil> devyn: see, the language has the very strict design constraint of perfect interop with objective c
<glowcoil> devyn: and so, i cannot imagine a better language given that constraint
<glowcoil> devyn: i can imagine a lot of concurrency constructs, for instance, that i would love to see in it
<glowcoil> devyn: but i think it's one of the most pleasurable rut languages i can imagine
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<alexgordon> glowcoil: what concurrency constructs would you like to see?
<alexgordon> most of it can be done with combinators no?
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<cloudhead> anyone here use haskell + sublime?
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<glowcoil> alexgordon: well i mean, i really like to see stack-hierarchy-cutting things like generators and coroutines
<glowcoil> alexgordon: just in general ways to express dependency graphs/trees more freely rather than lists of instructions
<glowcoil> alexgordon: i don't feel that combinators are as first class a replacement
<glowcoil> cloudhead: i have a little
<glowcoil> cloudhead: for haskell, clojure, and other stuff with weird indentation, that's the only area i feel sublime falls short
<glowcoil> cloudhead: and i tend to go to vim for indentation
<glowcoil> but it's not bad though
<glowcoil> i think it's obvious he's not a drummer first and foremost
<glowcoil> which is how it would turn out if i made the video too haha
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<alexgordon> glowcoil: "first class" sounds weasly
<alexgordon> glowcoil: in mathematics only sets are first class
<alexgordon> doesn't mean that say integers aren't treated well
<alexgordon> when you get down to it, all of this stuff compiles to instructions on intel or arm architectures, that's the only first class bit
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<devyn> anyone in here ever used node-webkit?
<devyn> I'm curious whether it's worth it
<devyn> working on a very browser-app like desktop app, and trying to find a good framework
<devyn> considered Shoes but it's just not good enough
<gkatsev> I haven't used it but heard great things
<devyn> well it *sounds* perfect
<devyn> I might just take the plunge
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<joelteon> ok this sucks
<joelteon> gcc is no longer supported on osx
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<joelteon> can no longer import the libc headers
<joelteon> but who needs libc
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<devyn> joelteon: what do you mean you can't import the libc headers?
<joelteon> clang's __has_feature thing results in CPP conditionals that GCC cannot parse
<devyn> joelteon: just avoid the && then and wrap the entire thing in #if defined(__has_feature)
<joelteon> so i should edit my system include files to make builds possible
<joelteon> and so should everyone who wants to use gcc
<devyn> joelteon: oh, hold on, /usr/include/Availability.h is part of OS X, not NixOS?
<joelteon> yeah
<joelteon> as of 10.10 I think
<devyn> well it makes perfect sense then if Apple doesn't support GCC that they would be allowed to use non-GCC features in their headers
<joelteon> yeah
<joelteon> to be honest, i'd love to get away from gcc
<joelteon> but it's such a hard problem
<devyn> if NixOS needs to be built with GCC, build it on another host system
<devyn> this isn't exactly a bug lol
<purr> lol
<devyn> in NixOS
<devyn> or, really, a bug at all
<joelteon> nix doesn't have a native darwin stdenv yet
<joelteon> it really needs one
<devyn> oh, so you're just interested in using the package manager 'nix' on OS X
<devyn> I see?
<devyn> (I actually don't know anything about it)
<joelteon> yeah i'm just using nixpkgs
<devyn> ok ok
<joelteon> it works on unixy operating systems
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