ELLIOTTCABLE changed the topic of #elliottcable to: Embrace, extend, extuingish.
alexgordon has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
Guest45674 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
Guest45674 has joined #elliottcable
Guest45674 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
prophile has quit [Quit: The Game]
prophile has joined #elliottcable
Guest45674 has joined #elliottcable
<vigs>
hay
Guest45674 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
prophile has quit [Quit: The Game]
eligrey_ has joined #elliottcable
eligrey has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Guest45674 has joined #elliottcable
eligrey_ is now known as eligrey
eligrey has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Guest45674 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hai
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
vigs is for horses
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: did you see my spec thing
<vigs>
oh
<joelteon>
you know what we should do is rewrite the Prelude to add typeclasses for all the operations-on-lists
<devyn>
Prelude doesn't really contain anything... it's just a bunch of re-exported imports
<joelteon>
well it exports some stuff from GHC.Num and friends
<joelteon>
which you can't get from anywhere except Prelude
<joelteon>
unless you want to depend explicitly on ghc
<joelteon>
but actually, I'd like a different way to do containers entirely
<joelteon>
because it's not very good right now
<joelteon>
the functions provided by Prelude all operate on a garbage collected linked list
<joelteon>
which nobody ever uses
_whitelogger has joined #elliottcable
<Cheery>
parsing and handling the stuff was easier, because it was more clear what everything is.
<Cheery>
but say I'd want a fancy syntax for type casting
<Cheery>
int* <- expression
<Cheery>
it starts parsing for an expression
<Cheery>
that means it looks for a term
<Cheery>
then it sees a star
<Cheery>
expects that it's multiplication statement
<Cheery>
at the point of <- it goes "wtf"
<Cheery>
the parser can't backtrack, because the stuff has been already interpreted as what it recognised, and tokens are already dropped
<Cheery>
well..
<Cheery>
this made me wonder, what the heck a human eye is doing?
<Cheery>
the computer loves to parse from left to right
<Cheery>
if eye did the same, the error recognition and whatever else would be intuitive
<Cheery>
they can both read same language though, so the mechanisms are equivalent.
<devyn>
I believe our brain picks out points of contrast and tries to recognize a pattern
<devyn>
and I mean literally points of visual contrast
<Cheery>
spent yesterday reading about human eye motion. and considering to test eye tracking webcams
<Cheery>
yeah. I know the eyes exploit, for example, rhythm in english text.
<Cheery>
small words of glue.
<Cheery>
and yeah, contrast.
<Cheery>
anyway. first reading few papers through
<Cheery>
I'll see if I would find something interesting.
<devyn>
cool
<Cheery>
I consider to try something like a whole-line parsing.
<devyn>
there *are* backtracking parsers, too, FYI
<devyn>
many parsers backtrack
<Cheery>
sure.
<Cheery>
I know I could get that thing parsed with PEGs.
<Cheery>
and PEGs could work line-by-line fashion.
<Cheery>
there are few things I care about, besides getting correct output for input.
<Cheery>
the parser complexity
<Cheery>
the error messages
<devyn>
well I don't think you really want to work line-by-line all of the time... it's nice to be able to split up a line of code without having to do some kind of Visual Basic-esque EOL escape
<devyn>
:p
<Cheery>
I don't like to split up a line like that.
<Cheery>
neither way you propose.
<Cheery>
anyway I have in mind something like a fixation, and concept of saccades.
<katlogic>
now that 2000s feel of haskell is gone forever
<joelteon>
I don't like the new one either
<katlogic>
i mean, its probably up to the current hype standards
<katlogic>
i mean if you want to hype something, it has to have proper bootstrap template with flat design theme
<katlogic>
but why no haskell.io?
<joelteon>
i have a .io domain
<devyn>
yeah, definitely up to hype standard
<devyn>
this is like cookie cutter Si valley startup
<joelteon>
yes it is
<joelteon>
it's upsetting
<devyn>
I like where they put the tutorial though
<devyn>
that's kinda neat
<katlogic>
Still not sure if haskell can be the next node.js.
<katlogic>
Isn't it Go's turn yet?
Sgeo has joined #elliottcable
<joelteon>
yeah, Go is definitely a bad enough language
<devyn>
++ joelteon
<purr>
Let it be known that devyn loves joelteon.
<devyn>
seriously Go is terrible
<joelteon>
oh, awesome
<joelteon>
so this project was supposed to be live two weeks ago
<joelteon>
apparently finance changed their process and they have no documentation for it
<joelteon>
so...
vil has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
<cloudhead>
wtf
<cloudhead>
Go is awesome
<cloudhead>
shows that neither of you have used it
<katlogic>
:)
<katlogic>
Hurr durr "X is better than Y in full swing". Nodejsque hypesplosion imminent.
<cloudhead>
don't like people talking out of their arse
<katlogic>
Yeah, I fully agree. Go has actually seen some large scale software deployments done, so its better than haskell which seems to be just toy for the most part.
<katlogic>
But then again, JS was just toy before too. Twists of fate are unpredictable.
<devyn>
not talking about Go vs. Haskell, lol
<purr>
lol
<devyn>
Haskell is... whatever, I dunno
<devyn>
it can be awesome for some things
<cloudhead>
JS is still pretty much toy
<cloudhead>
doesn't mean you can't get things done with it
<katlogic>
Well, if things are done and one just does not fuck around, its no longer a toy, right?
<cloudhead>
Go was designed for production from day 1
<devyn>
Rust seems a lot better designed to me
<devyn>
though I haven't used Go for a while
<cloudhead>
mmm I dunno, I guess the origin of it is more as a toy
* katlogic
has to vote for Rust in this flamewar
<katlogic>
Mozilla:Google 1:0
<cloudhead>
but yes, today one might say node is not a toy anymore
<katlogic>
Mozilla should get some penalty points for inventing javascript, though. The damn thing threw whole industry 10 years back into the past.
<cloudhead>
Go (and the whole toolchain) is incredibly well designed, but perhaps not in a computer science kind of way
<cloudhead>
definitely a case of "worse is better"
<katlogic>
cloudhead: Nah, Go has pretty strong suits.
<katlogic>
Generally at google things, particularly network servers are breeze in go.
<cloudhead>
suits?
<katlogic>
But trying to do anything else in there, ugh.
<cloudhead>
yea, its domain is networked services
<cloudhead>
and it's the best toolchain there is for building those kinds of systems
vil has joined #elliottcable
<katlogic>
Rather opininionated, are we? Tbh, it's still an uphill battle about this one one with management with HR and beancounters
<cloudhead>
me? yes
<katlogic>
Is it cheaper to hire horde of crappy node programmers, or two go guys.
<cloudhead>
two go guys is definitely cheaper
<katlogic>
Definitely cheaper initial investments on salary, however cost of ownership remains uncertain.
<cloudhead>
no that's the thing, go is easier to maintain
<cloudhead>
and to train people on
<katlogic>
As in, those guys are obviously skilled and they'll eventually get their talent recognized and quit the company.
<cloudhead>
that's orthogonal
<cloudhead>
you'll have that issue with any talent
<katlogic>
Not necessarily
<katlogic>
Monkeys are just monkeys
<katlogic>
There is plenty of those, always
<katlogic>
Monkeys understand monkey code
alexthegreat has joined #elliottcable
<cloudhead>
there are definitely go monkeys if you're into that
<katlogic>
The more niche the tools you use
<katlogic>
The more naked you are
<katlogic>
well, Go is not that bad.
<alexthegreat>
o_O
<katlogic>
could be worse. this particular scenario played out with ocaml, which has a bit higher barrier of entry.
<cloudhead>
how so?
<cloudhead>
ocaml is pretty much only used at jane street
<alexthegreat>
cloudhead: f#!
<cloudhead>
alexthegreat: ?
<katlogic>
The place was "fast and dynamic cookie cutter company". Problem was, they could solve problems they had for a year in two months.
<katlogic>
Reducing 50kloc of JS code to 4kloc of ocaml.
<katlogic>
Trouble is, nobody else understood their code.
<alexthegreat>
cloudhead: F# is basically ocaml and pretty sure a couple of guys are using it somewhere
<katlogic>
Well, they then asked for a raise or we quit. Its inconceivable to have higher salary than company CTO, right?
<cloudhead>
then raise the cto : )
<katlogic>
So the business is back to JS stuff.
<cloudhead>
ocaml is a niche language though
<cloudhead>
Go is not
<katlogic>
yeah, they didnt particularly care for ocaml
<katlogic>
they were desperate and got burned
<cloudhead>
mhm
<cloudhead>
that's the problem though
<alexthegreat>
just got an advert for
<katlogic>
might have been as well clojure, or go, or anything where getting at least medium quality programmers is rather difficult, where as js market is saturated
<cloudhead>
if you don't have the budget/culture to attract great people
<cloudhead>
stick to ruby/python
<alexthegreat>
"COVER FUNERAL COSTS"
<cloudhead>
lol
<purr>
lol
<alexthegreat>
"Request our free brochure about saving in advice for your funeral"
<alexthegreat>
now I'm scared
<katlogic>
cloudhead: you wish for ruby or python
<alexthegreat>
what do they know that I don't?
<cloudhead>
:D
<cloudhead>
alexthegreat: they have your dataz
<katlogic>
cloudhead: those are almost fringe over here, all you can get is particularly shitty RoR programmers. those guys literally dont know ruby, just few phrases from RoR videos.
<katlogic>
scary.
<cloudhead>
lol
<cloudhead>
katlogic: where do you live?
<katlogic>
cz
<katlogic>
supposedly were this eastern block technological superpower
<katlogic>
far from it, its rather polarised
<cloudhead>
ah i see
<katlogic>
i mean, its not that bad as in us where lots of people seem to be much more prone to unique snowflake syndrome
<alexthegreat>
god I hate the halfords kid
<katlogic>
Doing HR in there must be hell
<cloudhead>
heh just don't hire people under 25
<cloudhead>
risk is lowered by half
<katlogic>
cashflow problems
<cloudhead>
lol
<purr>
lol
<katlogic>
older people wont work for peanuts
<cloudhead>
for good reasons
<katlogic>
we're talking cookie cutter hipster companies financed by SF angel investment cartels
<katlogic>
so upper management got good lecture about hiring practices and labour exploitation
<katlogic>
this is rather recent thing, up to now almost no external influence existed over here
<cloudhead>
I tend to stay away from cookie-cutter companies
<katlogic>
well, its mostly SNS analytics
<cloudhead>
SNS?
<katlogic>
they _do_ some nice number crunching stuff
<katlogic>
social network sites. basically a game company and ad company in one.
<cloudhead>
ah
<katlogic>
the game company makes shitty facebook games, which pulls data from fb api.
<katlogic>
the ad company crunches the data and makes campaigns based on that. this is rather booming business here.
<cloudhead>
you seem bitter overall
<cloudhead>
are you unhappy with the situation?
<katlogic>
well, i was initially enthusiastic about doing the number crunching
<cloudhead>
well I'm talking more broadly, given your comments on hiring/engineering
<katlogic>
then found out few internal things, its rather shady business it seems
<cloudhead>
heh
<katlogic>
both towards customers and towards employees
<katlogic>
business borderline scam, employee situation rather detoriating as well. there are still a lot of good technological companies before invasion of angel capital.
<alexthegreat>
guys don't you realize there's penalties going on?
<katlogic>
usually german ones, those were here for years and is what we were used to.
* alexthegreat
tuts
<katlogic>
alexthegreat: who cares? :)
<cloudhead>
^
<cloudhead>
it's just football
<cloudhead>
alexthegreat: -> alexgordon?
<alexthegreat>
yah
<katlogic>
cloudhead: Anyhow, judging from nickname, you must be one of the SF cookie cutters!
<cloudhead>
kk
<katlogic>
Forced upbeat attitude and all that?
<alexthegreat>
cloudhead: alexthegreat = laptop
<cloudhead>
haha
<cloudhead>
katlogic: how'd you figure that?
<katlogic>
just pulling off my arse, nickname and irccloud
<cloudhead>
different kinds of clouds heh
<cloudhead>
I don't care too much for "cloud" computing
<katlogic>
though to be honest most cookie cutters i met were just generic mobile gaming
<cloudhead>
my name comes from my head being in the clouds
<cloudhead>
pre-cloud-computing era
<katlogic>
damn hype, gives it all the wrong connotations now lol
<purr>
lol
<cloudhead>
it's unfortunate really
<katlogic>
So anyhow
<katlogic>
I'd like to see a cloud startup which specializes in selling ready-made cloud startups
<cloudhead>
lol
<katlogic>
Basically I go to a website, type in company name, make some bullshit mission statement, pay a registration fee.
<katlogic>
And bam, I have everything including SF office really being just lawyers sandbox, and perhaps some potemkin village shared by thousands of similiar companies, if prospective investors ever check the place out.
<katlogic>
I'm pretty sure something like that existed during the 90s boom.
<cloudhead>
haha
<cloudhead>
you seem very affected by the tech bubble
<katlogic>
Perhaps have affiliate program for twitter celebrities
<cloudhead>
I would have not guessed you lived in cz
<katlogic>
so they retweet bullshit companies as the next big thing to get snowball rolling quick instead of waiting it out slowly by spamming
<katlogic>
cloudhead: In here its just starting and situation is a bit hilarious because east europe.
<katlogic>
Top priority is to rip off investors, not get ripped off by investors.
<alexgordon>
katlogic: hey SF is better than london at least
<katlogic>
So its like, investors are really careful to not jump into some bullshit, but now and then jump into it anyway, they lose money.
<cloudhead>
i see
<katlogic>
But sometimes, the bullshitters are like, hey wait, it does not make sense to rip off investors now because somehow our bullshit idea works.
<cloudhead>
alexthegreat: !!
<cloudhead>
london is way better than sf!
<katlogic>
Like, our angels did us good PR and we have actual customers.
<alexgordon>
politibots keep harping on about a "recovery" but I've seen corpses less dead than london's tech scene
<katlogic>
Its rather unheard of to have east europe company with western customers.
<alexgordon>
we londoners post a new story on HN every so often to give the impression that there's somebody home
<cloudhead>
lol
<purr>
lol
<cloudhead>
the thing is, sf doesn't have anything else going for it
<katlogic>
alexgordon: Londoners are sweet, though they're the more experienced ones.
<alexgordon>
when I look for jobs 90% of it is in the finance industry using java or whatever
<alexgordon>
COBOL
<cloudhead>
O.o
<alexgordon>
"COBOL PROGRAMMER WANTED WITH 117 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE"
<katlogic>
Guns are not that common over there luckily, this aint US.
<alexgordon>
cloudhead: it's really unusual to be that central, but if you can afford it go for it
<alexgordon>
I live ~25 minutes away from the center by train (=8 miles)
<alexgordon>
cloudhead: rents round here are about £1k
<cloudhead>
that's less than I'm paying in berlin
<cloudhead>
;p
<alexgordon>
for one bedroom :P
<cloudhead>
well no it's about the same actually
<alexgordon>
two bedrooms is I dunno, 1500 probably
<cloudhead>
yea
<katlogic>
yeah, does not sound that bad
<cloudhead>
so zone 1 is like 2-2.5k for a 2 bedroom
<katlogic>
about 3 times that of prague, and prague is technically still in 3rd world country.
<cloudhead>
which you can afford on ~80k
<alexgordon>
cloudhead: yeah but that's _just_ for rent
<cloudhead>
yea sure
<alexgordon>
everything else is twice as expensive too
<alexgordon>
:P
<cloudhead>
I found the food not too expensive actually
<katlogic>
Room service not included?
<cloudhead>
rent is the main expense though
<alexgordon>
cloudhead: really? I was amazed at how cheap it was in berlin
<cloudhead>
yea it is cheap here
<cloudhead>
but it's like
<cloudhead>
here you'll pay say 7-10 eur for a meal
<cloudhead>
when in london I usually pay 7-10 quid
<cloudhead>
for an equivalent meal
<alexgordon>
mmm more probably :P
<cloudhead>
bit more maybe ;p
<alexgordon>
I dunno it depends where you eat
<cloudhead>
yea
<cloudhead>
I guess that's the thing
<cloudhead>
I wouldn't move to london for under 80k
<cloudhead>
cause that would be a big downgrade from the quality of life I have here
<alexgordon>
yah
<cloudhead>
there's more interesting opportunities though there
<alexgordon>
like COBOL!
<cloudhead>
:D
<katlogic>
cloudhead strikes more like a C# whiz
<cloudhead>
lol
<purr>
lol
<alexgordon>
I guess I'm probably jaded, I mean I've lived here all my life so I only see the negatives :P
<cloudhead>
I don't touch MS software ;p
<katlogic>
Weird, most nazis love that shit.
<cloudhead>
yea, course
<cloudhead>
haha I'm not german though
<katlogic>
Well, you work in berlin.
<cloudhead>
yes
<alexgordon>
katlogic: I sense some post-war tension
<cloudhead>
i'm french though
<cloudhead>
JS is big here
<cloudhead>
bigger than nazism
<alexgordon>
hm, nazism is pretty big in france
<cloudhead>
it was, during wwii
<katlogic>
alexgordon: Nah, its part of european folklore now. Londoners starve, italians always join the the evil side, france surrenders, spain is the food plantation for the whole europe, germans and russians liberate, poland, czech republic etc are first to be liberated
<katlogic>
folklore like that
<katlogic>
londoners starve because hungry women and isolated island obviously
<alexgordon>
LOL
<purr>
LOL
<alexgordon>
katlogic: can confirm that london women eat more than is reasonable
<alexgordon>
more than their fair share
<cloudhead>
!
<katlogic>
yeah, its ongoing tongue in cheeck
<katlogic>
that londoners look like sissies because their valkyries dont feed em enough
<cloudhead>
alexgordon: are you working these days?
<alexgordon>
cloudhead: I have been known to
<alexgordon>
katlogic: LOL
<cloudhead>
i see
<katlogic>
it is true to a degree, sex tourist from london in prague are #1 foreigner ethnicity attacked by street mobs
<alexgordon>
katlogic: this whole czech sex tourist thing was news to me until I saw a documentary about it
<katlogic>
not because theyre londoners, but they're most numerous and like to go clubbing / ladies
<alexgordon>
katlogic: I always thought they went to riga
<cloudhead>
alexgordon: are you still working on Chocolat?
<katlogic>
alexgordon: its not just prague, a lot of east european cities
<cloudhead>
are you making $$
<alexgordon>
cloudhead: some of the time!
<cloudhead>
do you use it for coding?
<alexgordon>
cloudhead: I mostly do like contract work
<katlogic>
i dont think prague is #1 destination anymore, shit got expensive after russian mob consolidated properties and brothers and started fixing prices
<katlogic>
*brothels
<cloudhead>
if I got a mac, would I get Chocolat?
<alexgordon>
cloudhead: yeah I use chocolat as my main editor
<alexgordon>
cloudhead: sure ;)
<cloudhead>
:D
<cloudhead>
I might have to get a mac at some point
<cloudhead>
to do iOS stuff
<alexgordon>
cloudhead: chocolat's main appeal is that it's a 100% native mac app
<alexgordon>
cloudhead: so all the mac things work in a mac way
<alexgordon>
:P
<cloudhead>
I like that
<alexgordon>
not sure it has switcher appeal
<cloudhead>
hahaha
<cloudhead>
well, I'm using ST3 at the moment
<cloudhead>
it's fairly nice
<alexgordon>
katlogic: damn russians!
<cloudhead>
chocolat seems to have similar functionality
<alexgordon>
yah
<alexgordon>
cloudhead: it's great for JS, if you're into that
<cloudhead>
probably I'd have to use XCode though for iOS :/
<cloudhead>
yea I do a little of JS still
<katlogic>
Re: need a mac because iphone, if you said that aloud in here, angry mob would lapidate you
<katlogic>
dont give capitalist pigs money just to earn your daily bread
<alexgordon>
katlogic: lolol
<purr>
lolol
<katlogic>
its enough you have to pay google play and app store fees
<alexgordon>
katlogic: it's way more fun being a capitalist than a socialist
<katlogic>
why? hackintosh pc is just as fun as mac
<cloudhead>
lool
<alexgordon>
mmmm
<katlogic>
except 3x more powerful :)
<katlogic>
(for the price)
<cloudhead>
hackintosh doesn't exist in my world
<cloudhead>
I try to pretend it's not a thing
<alexgordon>
katlogic: I was one of the first hackintosh users (back before apple had shipped any intel macs)
<katlogic>
Yeah, here when we make fun of "mac fags" we refer to PC users running hackintosh voluntarily as their mac desktop.
<alexgordon>
katlogic: I think I pulled half my hairs out trying to get it to work
<katlogic>
s/mac/main/g
<katlogic>
alexgordon: Yeah, its good to buy correct hardware rather than try to make sketchy drivers work.
<alexgordon>
I *did* buy correct hardware :P
<katlogic>
Obviously for laptops its mostly futile.
<alexgordon>
tbh
<alexgordon>
even if I only used windows I'd buy a mac
<alexgordon>
I don't like plastic shit
<alexgordon>
or loud shit
<cloudhead>
:D
<alexgordon>
PCs tend to be either plastic or loud
<cloudhead>
yea, macs are pretty nice
<cloudhead>
:/
<devyn>
I had a plastic mac
<devyn>
it wasn't loud though
<katlogic>
alexgordon: Well, for laptop its probably good choice. I still have my Powerbook G4 to this day, that thing is immortal.
alexgordon is now known as alexthegreat
<katlogic>
Also full of dents thanks to its metalic body.
<alexthegreat>
devyn: yeah but they don't make them now
<katlogic>
alexthegreat: Yeah, I have heard mostly good things.
<devyn>
I can pick up my MBP by the corner and it doesn't budge a bit, whereas many Windows laptops feel like they'll fall apart if you doo that
<devyn>
do*
<katlogic>
There were also annoyances with apples, like the freaking brick.
<alexthegreat>
cloudhead: oh and don't forget, if you move to london, there's no porn! :P
<cloudhead>
huh
<cloudhead>
what do you mean
<devyn>
they banned it
<alexthegreat>
cloudhead: porn block :P
<joelteon>
they blocked porn in london?
<cloudhead>
??
<alexthegreat>
cloudhead: you can turn it off if you ring up and ask for the porn to be turned back on
<devyn>
well, not banned, but you have to opt-in to it
<joelteon>
that's amazing
<alexthegreat>
* on
<cloudhead>
wtf?
<katlogic>
I bought 2 of em before gave up and rigged em with better cable. Fucking room full of that epoxy shit waste after hacking it with angle grinder.
<cloudhead>
censored?
<devyn>
yeah, to prevent the kiddies from seeing it