<gq>
alexgordon: my first name is already gabrielle & racists online think i look jewish. i don't mean that's why i'd convert, but.
<gq>
my parents are horrible antisemites, as most southern baptists are
<alexgordon>
really?
<alexgordon>
I thought americans loved jews
<gq>
they blame the jews for Jesus being dead, not really realising that the Jews don't LIKE liars/crazy people trying to run away with their community. and if Jesus wasn't for real, then he was the biggest con artist ever.
<alexgordon>
jew loving is a proud american pasttime
<devyn>
not everyone
<alexgordon>
gq: what's with all the american christian fundies who go to israel then?
<devyn>
they're not the same denomination
<gq>
alexgordon: my grandpa who died in March did that. they approve of Israel, they think it's the Jews back where God wants them to be
<devyn>
America has so many denominations of christianity that I think it's pointless to even enumerate them
<gq>
alexgordon: he bought a lot of keysakes and annoyed people by trying to speak in Hebrew.
<devyn>
well wtf then
<alexgordon>
so there's fundamentalists who hate jews, and fundamentalists who love them unconditionally. lol
<purr>
lol
<gq>
when i'm feeling really morbid i imagine him trying to convert people over there & twitch so hard i about have a heart attack.
<alexgordon>
america is a weird place, you know that? :P
<gq>
alexgordon: but the ones who love them are in a really racist way ;P
<gq>
alexgordon: i'm very aware.
<alexgordon>
also jesus was jewish so aren't christian anti-semites hating on their own messiah?
<alexgordon>
I guess it's a mistake to try and find sense in any of these things
<gq>
alexgordon: no, try to. that's where the real laughs are.
<gq>
alexgordon: at its worst, you get christians calling the people who physically nailed him to the cross heroes
<gq>
alexgordon: and then calling the rest of the community, including Jesus' MOTHER, horrible slurs.
<gq>
:S
<alexgordon>
lol
<purr>
lol
<alexgordon>
gq: Henry VIII was a good guy
<alexgordon>
anglicanism is so mild and calm in comparison
<gq>
alexgordon: Heh. My rapist ex really liked Henry VIII and took me to see The Other Boleyn Girl with him when we were first dating
<gq>
alexgordon: then he tried to force me to make out with him during the entire film.
<gq>
:s
<alexgordon>
. . .
<alexgordon>
gq: you know Henry VII lived down the road from me?
<alexgordon>
erm
<alexgordon>
VIII
<gq>
alexgordon: No, but I can believe it.
<gq>
er, henry the 8th* is th eone i eas referring to
<gq>
to me, all Henry's pale in comparison.
<alexgordon>
we went to the Henry VIII museum and checked out some of his irons
<alexgordon>
(that's all I remember)
<gq>
ah
<alexgordon>
in hindsight I doubt henry VIII did much ironing
<alexgordon>
his time was mainly consumed by eating pies
<alexgordon>
and fucking
<alexgordon>
sometimes at the same time
<alexgordon>
what I don't get about henry VIII is, why did he give a shit about marriage?
<gq>
if wondering, should i embarrass a colleague in public?
<gq>
a) no
<gq>
b) no
<vigs>
fair
<gq>
c) lulz but NOOOOO
<vigs>
but that's me though
<gq>
i understand the impulse, though, vigs.
<gq>
so?
<gq>
i'm chaotic by nature
<vigs>
lol
<gq>
but i've tried not to expose ec to that.
<gq>
ec the ec, not the #elliottcable channel
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wat
<gq>
obviously you all haa;lisdyf;aoisdyf;asiydf hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<gq>
lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ugh ugh ugh
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
dad got real sick recently
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: :/
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: is he gonna be okay?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and now there's some antibiotic reaction shit going on, apparently
<gq>
fuck.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
he's allergic to *everything*, omfg
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
well that's the thing, who knows
<gq>
are you at the hospital?
<gq>
i'm allergic to lots of stupid shit, so i understand :/
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
he's just unhealthy. Got bad genes, a bad lottery.
<gq>
yeah
<vigs>
:(
* vigs
sends hugs
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
if you people think *I*'m rich, you should hear how much his bi-monthly medication infusions cost. The medicine keeping him vaguely healthy costs more than most cars.
* gq
hugs
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
had a bad infection recently, I didn't even find out until much later because nobody told me (O_O), and the aftermath is still touchy
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: my grandpa died in march of cancer. blood cancer.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
idk words anyway shit's a mess
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: i'm sorry to hear that :(
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
march? jesus, we've been out of touch.
<gq>
yeah.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and I didn't even know blood cancer was a thing.
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: leukemia, but for old people, basically.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
sorry I've been so absent, devyn
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
no internet etc.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and lost a bunch of work, thanx vim, so haven't really been programming, hence no splurges of git pushes every time I *do* get a couple bars of signal
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(ofmg I'm gigs an gigs over my limit ;_; )
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but. haven't been idle.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
devyn: I'm really discouraged. Well, not about Paws *itself*, but about all our recent work.
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: don't be. Paws is looking better than ever from the outside
* gq
has been learning to code, again, recently
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I just *can* *not*, after **hours** of fucking battling with this,
<gq>
hours? that's a long time :(
<Cheery>
and I thought I have a bad day because I'm tired and feeling inadequate
* gq
hugs ec
<gq>
purr: hug ec dammit
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
reconcile non-linear instruction-graph (‘tires’) with what I Want in Paws.
Sorella has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
<Cheery>
oh damn. this game makes me just angry.
<Cheery>
better to delete it
<Cheery>
(FTL)
<gq>
heh
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hello gq
<gq>
hello ec
<Cheery>
for some reason I'm still angry
<Cheery>
feeling like wanting to smash something.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
gq: so, let's plan
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
pretty done with being here.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
:P
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: okay! you're going to portland, yes?
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: or somewhere near there?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
dude fuck if I know
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
lessee I should text erica
<gq>
kk
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
lol calendar
<purr>
lol
<gq>
what is a calendar
<gq>
-magnets
<gq>
-magnet
<gq>
q.q
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
idk I *know* I have shit happening in August, but I feel like I must have forgot to put it on my calendar or something?
oldskirt has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: iunno
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
gq: confirmed, have a place to crash in Portland.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
no particular timeline yet, though.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
if this comes together, I suppose you can expect me to come through within a week and a half …
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and, it being me, the trip itself, who fucking knows. I'm not really itching to be home right now, but I also want to keep costs down, this time around.
<Cheery>
ELLIOTTCABLE: plane to crash huh?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Cheery: hm?
<Cheery>
I saw someone throwing a beer bottle from the car yesterday. If I have had a million I would have rammed that off the road
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Cheery: i rarely fly around, except when a friend needs me badly, or i'm heading to Alaska, or I'm on a tight schedule.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
only a few times a year.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I usually drive everywhere.
<Cheery>
but umm.. what are you doing today?
<Cheery>
I'm sitting on front of a nearly blank screen, just awaken with little bit of help from the coffee
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
huh?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
"place" to crash, yes
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
today, I am sitting outside of a dark restaurant at 11:10PM, leeching WiFi
<Cheery>
It's still unclear to me what paws is. It's some kind of language for writing languages?
<Cheery>
but I also understood it's not designed for 'common' use. more like tool for language designers
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: you don't have to fly if yo udon't want to
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: i prefer to drive
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: or take a train.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hrm?
<gq>
Cheery: Paws is a language.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I already have a car, I'm *definitely* driving if I come over there
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: good! i like road trips.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
the fact that I'm already this close, and am driving, is kind of the point :P
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: :p
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: idk where you are anymore. not montana?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Cheery: Frankly, Paws is some ephemeral marketing-y shit. It's a mindset.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Cheery: a set of ideas and projects that complement eachother.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Cheery: the stuff we're working on *right now*, is basically a virtual machine, VM.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that's the part that would be interesting to you.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
there's a lot of other shit to Paws, but I doubt you'd care as much about most of it.
<Cheery>
hmm
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
as for the Big Picture, well … the Paws mindset is … really just two things, interoperating to give rise to a series of projects and ideas of mine:
<Cheery>
I think I should try write a copying garbage collector today.
<Cheery>
but it probably won't take even a hour
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
A) “Open-source library developers are the only kind of developer that *actually matters*” (or, re-phrased: ‘enabling further abstraction is the only purpose of a software system.’)
<Cheery>
wondering and sort of pissed about what to do with the remaining 9 hours.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and B) the assumption that a usefully-large subset of programming tasks can be modeled as a set of ordained interactions between 1. a graph of operations, and 2. a graph of data.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
er, s/graph/homogenous graph/
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(a bit lispy.)
<Cheery>
graphs..
<Cheery>
I keep hitting graphs and basically I keep hitting visual programming again and again.
<Cheery>
but I'm wondering if I should just do something real with plain javascript instead
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
visual programming, if you mean what I think you mean, is very interesting to me.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
for me, it's super-obvious why it's never worked well, before.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
in fact, the relationship between visual source-code and traditional source-code, is identical in my opinion to the relationship between s-exprs and traditional source-code.
<Cheery>
cheery.visual_programming = representation and editing of programs in highly graphical form.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Scratch : C :: C : s-exprs
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
this guy does a very, very good job of *nailing* why that matters.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“The problem was that most past alternatives lost the advantages of s-expressions, in particular, that s-expressions are generic (they do not depend on some underlying semantic) and homoiconic (the underlying data structure is clear from the syntax).”
<Cheery>
I see the sort of bridge in the s-expressions yes. one of the reasons why I turned to do what I'm doing now
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that project itself aside, his points are important:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
general and homoiconic.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
he doesn't mention it anywhere, but the obvious follow from that (well, obvious to me, for whatever that's worth), is *abstractability*.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
You can't *abstract* on top of C's syntax, except to a piddling extent with some extremely arcane CPP backflips.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
you can abstract to an *extent* on top of Ruby's syntax, which is a huge part of the success thereof.
<Cheery>
there's lot of interesting things about lisp. But one thing that bothers me is that to so many people it looks like line noise.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so. ‘Visual programming’ might truly become of interest, in my opinion, when we devise an interesting system for *abstracting* on top of it.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yeah, not a fan of lisp personally, in a lot of ways
<Cheery>
another problem is that I've already lost on that. lisp doesn't look line noise to me.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
will say that Readable is very cool, if you want to talk about that.
<Cheery>
I guess I'll read about that kind of autonomous agents again sometime.
<Cheery>
hmm
<Cheery>
ELLIOTTCABLE: so in more humane wording. the system should not rely on specific semantics, and the internal representation of the thing should be inferrable from it's visuals.
alexgordon has joined #elliottcable
<Cheery>
by that logic. you would start with boxes
<Cheery>
except that symbols with meaning would be probably enlargened
<Cheery>
I've studied these things a bit
<Cheery>
readable things are aligned, or there's things explained by size.. or etc.
<Cheery>
if you do it right, no colors are needed
<Cheery>
the editing model would probably be a tree
<Cheery>
organization model for text would be cells. space would always appear between.
<Cheery>
tab would move between elements
<Cheery>
enter would split line
<Cheery>
I've done something simple like that before
<Cheery>
or well. not that simple thing ever.
sharkbot has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
sharkbot has joined #elliottcable
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: sorry to hear that about your dad
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: as for reconciling Tires with Paws, yeah, I know, I've been thinking a lot about that too and can't come up with a good solution. there are possiblities I've thought of, like explicit hole passing [foo $ a b c] where $ refers to the containing subexpr)
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: except that doesn't work because there are all kinds of implicit hole passing points in there, so then another solution is to just pass the hole implicitly every time: [foo a b c]
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: but the disadvantage to that is that no-arg routines then have to take some bogus argument, say [foo _]
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: additionally it doesn't really solve order-dependency in any concrete way either
<katlogic>
unfortunately you can go only as far as simple functional programming
<katlogic>
more involved imperative things are rather cumbersome to express visually
<katlogic>
most notably because of lack of lexical scope
<Cheery>
anyway. I hope to get up something you can actually try out and then tell how bad it is. :)
<katlogic>
theres either global or function argument, no scope captures
<katlogic>
not even closures :/
<katlogic>
Cheery: it's like replacing english story with picture book
<katlogic>
sure it is possible to convey ideas; but only very coarsely or only very simple ones :/
Rusky has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
<katlogic>
Cheery: as for paranthesis, this can be replaced by clever whitespacing rules
<katlogic>
problem with that while it is easier to write, and you can lie to yourself it is more readable, it tends to obscure context :/
<katlogic>
balanced example would be python, over-the-top is coffeescript with its shitton of ambiguity where one has to see js output to even figure out whats going on
<Cheery>
I can handle coffeescript just fine
<Cheery>
katlogic: syntax may do the thing just fine most of the time
<katlogic>
Cheery: theres this neuroimaging research wrt programming
<katlogic>
and result was: we develop language centers brain activity when _reading_ programs; presumably syntax is processed as natural language
<katlogic>
hence, the more involved syntax and grammar rules, the harder it is to pick up
<Cheery>
did they do that with different languages?
<katlogic>
yes; with lisp almost no activity
<katlogic>
only spatial thinking
Rusky has joined #elliottcable
<Cheery>
wtf
<katlogic>
which is second center used; but to reason about algorithms
<Cheery>
katlogic: it's exactly what I thought while ago
<Cheery>
lisp doesn't tax certain part of my brains
<Cheery>
katlogic: where's the paper?!
<katlogic>
Cheery: i think it was some popsci argument on reddit
<katlogic>
Cheery: as for 'taxing' i have my doubts its a good thing
<katlogic>
spatial thinking and language processing are very distinct areas
<katlogic>
best case scenario is we use both in tandem
Rusky has quit [Client Quit]
<katlogic>
what lisp lacks in syntax it must supplant in additional semantic 'complexity'.
<katlogic>
quoted, because it turns out it might be rather elegant most of the time, instead of the more explicity imperative style
<Cheery>
yes it does.
<katlogic>
ideally you want both
<katlogic>
good syntax for places where imperative style is inevitable
<katlogic>
and very simple syntax for functional style.
<Cheery>
due to how people read at pictures, I don't think language processing is two-dimensiola though.
<Cheery>
*one-dimensional
<katlogic>
and you get this gizmo result, like ML or haskell
<katlogic>
problem is that the interactions between the two distinct styles create new disturbing oddities
<Cheery>
thinking about stuff such as vertical align.
<katlogic>
like if brain is stuck deciding if it is java or scheme we're dealing with
<Cheery>
or horizontal
<katlogic>
typing tends to fall into language area
<Cheery>
yeah. it's another thing that bothers me about visual programming.
<katlogic>
so the pure spatial syntax is best typeless (or heavily inferring)
<katlogic>
anyhow, at least for me personally, all the hybrids between the approaches turned out mostly failures
<Cheery>
input should somewhat match the output, or otherwise it's hard to learn.
Rusky has joined #elliottcable
<katlogic>
and even if someone did translate scheme semantics right into simple imperative syntax (lua being the poster child); in the end you dont use it as lisp at all
<katlogic>
being it functional-friendly is just nice touch, not central tenet
<Cheery>
why syntax works like it works?
<Cheery>
it's like a blessing and a curse
<Cheery>
makes things harder to learn, obfuscates some very nice principles, in other hand makes some things clean and easy to read.
<katlogic>
syntax is nice to 'get overall picture and convey some minute details'
<katlogic>
without syntax, ie s-expr, you are forced to remove that aspect of your code
<Cheery>
it doesn't get away with a visual editor, that I've already gotten to figure out.
<katlogic>
ie functions must be short and sweet, no side effects, no imperative style
<Cheery>
well I use side-effects in snakelisp code
<katlogic>
careful about that
<Cheery>
designed the semantics to help with those
<katlogic>
youre creating another imperative gizmo
<katlogic>
while it is ok to do that occasionaly
<katlogic>
as a central tenet you end up with imperative spaghetti
<katlogic>
in language with no syntax
<katlogic>
Cheery: i'd call it 'context separation'
<katlogic>
syntax helps describe context
<katlogic>
without syntax, you must be careful to make contexes small and modular; then syntax is not necessary or even redundant
<Cheery>
immediately comes to mind algebraic syntax, and css, html
<joelteon>
guys
<joelteon>
is it correct or possible to link an existing binary with a library
<katlogic>
just fucking static link it from the beggining
<joelteon>
well, it's a rubygem
<joelteon>
guess i'm gonna either patch it or fork it
<katlogic>
haha
<katlogic>
well, static linking anything in language extensions is tricky one
<katlogic>
as ruby itself kinda expects dlsym / dlopen to work
* katlogic
made some static lua things
<joelteon>
okay that's fine
<katlogic>
it all boils down to replacing dlopen / dlsym with custom version
<joelteon>
but i'm trying to build libv8, right
<joelteon>
and it has a --use-system-v8 option
<katlogic>
which resolves the symbols you have static linked
<katlogic>
oooh
<joelteon>
but nobody ever actually uses that option
<joelteon>
because v8 creates init.bundle which isn't linked with v8 at all
<joelteon>
it has references to a bunch of v8 symbols though
<katlogic>
yeah, that could work then statically into dynamic ext. assuming there is libv8.a which is -fPIC
<joelteon>
because init.bundle is created, but it's not used when v8 is packaged with the gem
<joelteon>
okay i'll look at that
<Cheery>
katlogic: so is it a bad idea to create a visual programming editor on top of lisp concepts?
<joelteon>
there's a libv8.dylib
<joelteon>
so i guess that doesn't help at all
<joelteon>
there's a dylib and a .so
<katlogic>
Cheery: i think its an awesome idea :) i'm just saying that it might not be that helpful though
<katlogic>
Cheery: functional programming being very alien to newbies already
<katlogic>
and youre creating visual tool for abstract lispesque thinking
<katlogic>
where newbies prefer imperative natural language style
<katlogic>
Cheery: also, what would be really cool is to make it touchscreen friendly
<katlogic>
think lisp for android devices
<katlogic>
because typing there is really not an option
<katlogic>
also would be ultimately rather star-trek esque :)
<Cheery>
always feeling sad when looking at a tablet, realising that it's really hard to use it for programming anything.
<Cheery>
so I guess I agree on that part
<katlogic>
not if "programming" is just drawing inputs-outputs
<katlogic>
variable names generated on touch of a button and selecting a topic area, selecting a word
<katlogic>
for example variable and function naming
<katlogic>
thats the problem no1 in visual programming
<katlogic>
you cant have people type those, they have to select those ... somehow
<Cheery>
well that kind of programming. I thought about implementing keyboard interface to this weekend project
* katlogic
is either pro-heavy keyboard use, or (almost) no keyboard at all
<katlogic>
i'm not sure of the benefits of visual programming when keyboard is available
<katlogic>
the throughput far surpasses anything mouse/touchscreen could do
<katlogic>
but also occupies all 10 fingers, not just one or two
<Cheery>
it does. but only if there's a good parser in front of it.
<katlogic>
even for lisp :)
<Cheery>
vim after keyboard and productivity skyrockets
<Cheery>
even with lisp
<katlogic>
oh that; naturally
<katlogic>
though not much fancy macros needed for lisp
<katlogic>
vim is needed mostly to deal with arbitrary syntax rules of grammar heavy languages
<Cheery>
true. but the basic motions are still useful.
<katlogic>
lisp editor does just ... indent according to parens, paren matching, some symbol autocomple according to current lexical scope ... and that is all
<katlogic>
now you mention it
<katlogic>
i suspect there is heavy language center use just to deal with vim
<Cheery>
might be. it depends on how heavily you rely to it
<katlogic>
you have to naturally convey "sentences" into vim agglutinative "language"
<Cheery>
there's some insane settings and then there's simple things.
<katlogic>
mostly motor memory
<Cheery>
but unlike traditional syntax, I find vim universally useful. it doesn't get to the way
<Cheery>
it may be use of the language that is differnt
<Cheery>
vim commands are sort of.. you never modify them afterwards or work with them
<joelteon>
:q
<joelteon>
whoops
<Cheery>
you don't care about a form.
<devyn>
lol joelteon
<purr>
lol
<devyn>
appropriate
<Cheery>
in that sense it's more like speaking.
<joelteon>
oh is it?
<joelteon>
oh you guys are talking about vim
<joelteon>
nice
<katlogic>
Cheery: yeah, theres this video of some python guy with severe carpal tunel syndrome
<katlogic>
Cheery: audio recognition for vim commands, basically he talks in grunts to his editor
<joelteon>
that's hilarious
<devyn>
Cheery: I think if you can solve the touchscreen programming problem, that would be worthwhile
<katlogic>
also the setup is insane .. apparently good audio recog sw is win32 only, so he runs winxp in dosemu and talks to vim via ipc
<katlogic>
s/dosemu/qemu/
<katlogic>
yeah
<katlogic>
1+ for touchscreen
<devyn>
Cheery: visual arrangement of lispy code with programmable gestures for insertion of symbols could work
<katlogic>
and audio recognition for variable naming
<katlogic>
that would be awesome
<katlogic>
computer! name this variable 'klingon_cruiser'
<devyn>
audio + gestures, even
<devyn>
so you don't have to say 'fn' over and over
<katlogic>
devyn: nah, those things is all touch / simple gestures
<devyn>
yeah, that's what I was thinking, but not fixed; user programmable
<katlogic>
gestures or not is rather blurry tho, because thats just some synthetic grammar too
<devyn>
so like if their framework has a very common function, you add a gesture
* katlogic
not too fond of gestures except navigation
<Cheery>
do you btw. know about something like jsfiddle, but with multiple files, maybe better?
<devyn>
I think as long as they're kept to a minimum by default they're good
<Cheery>
it might make sense to write the weekend project in something like that, so one could modify it.
<devyn>
Cheery: github pages :p
<katlogic>
Cheery: voluntarily subjecting yourself to javascript?
<katlogic>
what are you; some sort of masochist?
<Cheery>
well jsfiddle allows coffeescript
<Cheery>
github pages seem good enough
oldskirt_ has joined #elliottcable
<Cheery>
important is that one could pick it up and modify easily enough
Rusky has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
oldskirt has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
<katlogic>
Cheery: meh
* katlogic
gave up on drive-by coders
<katlogic>
either its in version control or fuck off
<katlogic>
Cheery: also, there is codepen
Rusky has joined #elliottcable
Rusky has quit [Client Quit]
Rusky has joined #elliottcable
Rusky has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
Rusky has joined #elliottcable
Rusky has quit [Client Quit]
Rusky has joined #elliottcable
Rusky has quit [Client Quit]
<devyn>
glowcoil: so I've learned that there are a whole bunch of verbs that where -a/-e determines transitivity. somaru "to be dyed" (intransitive), someru "to dye" (transitive); kasanaru "to be piled up"/"to overlap" (intransitive), kasaneru "to pile up" (transitive)
<devyn>
glowcoil: yet it's not a formally specified rule I can find anywhere
<devyn>
glowcoil: kinda neat
<devyn>
that's even the difference between hajimaru and hajimeru
<devyn>
so ichidan -aru is intransitive while ichidan -eru is transitive
<joelteon>
is that an ld flag
<devyn>
yes, of course
<devyn>
:p
<katlogic>
weeaboo
* katlogic
is just jealous
<katlogic>
but hey; i managed to fathom c++ in late 20s, maybe i can still learn mandarin or japanese
Rusky has joined #elliottcable
Rusky has quit [Client Quit]
Rusky has joined #elliottcable
Rusky1 has joined #elliottcable
Rusky has quit [*.net *.split]
sharkbot has quit [*.net *.split]
<devyn>
katlogic: haha, well, I started in high school
<devyn>
(though, I mean, I only got out of there just over a year ago)
<joelteon>
and i thought npm made installing dependencies *easier*
<joelteon>
whoops
<devyn>
npm is terrible
<joelteon>
you'd think system tools written in javascript would work really well
<yorick>
devyn: better than cabal
<joelteon>
nice one
<yorick>
oh, your compiler updated a minor version? better recompile everything!
<joelteon>
tell you what, if you were allowed to duplicate all the dependencies for every package in haskell, cabal would be easy too
<joelteon>
and i'm willing to bet that cabal wouldn't panic because it couldn't modify the file that it just deleted
<yorick>
yeah, but everything would be huge and take even longer
<joelteon>
that's my point
<devyn>
yorick: that's not even cabal's fault; many compiled languages would have that problem - rust's cargo likely does too (though I haven't checked)[C
<yorick>
devyn: I don't know any package managers better than npm
<joelteon>
yorick has never heard of any package managers
<joelteon>
anyway, nix is definitely better
<devyn>
if we're just talking package managers in general, pacman is fucking excellent
<yorick>
joelteon: I've been told to not use nix
<joelteon>
also, a good package manager for javascript is like getting really, really good at pooping
<joelteon>
what's the point
<yorick>
imagine being really, really good at pooping