ELLIOTTCABLE changed the topic of #elliottcable to: a _better_ cult ˙ ͜ʟ˙ embrace, extend, extinguish.
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<devyn>
our education system is terrible too, it's just terrible in a different way I think
<devyn>
in the US you can find really well-funded schools and really poorly-funded schools
<devyn>
in Canada it's more equal, for better or for worse
<devyn>
teachers are forever going on strike
<gq>
sounds like what i hear, yeah
<devyn>
like
<devyn>
always
<devyn>
well, in BC anyway
<gq>
i always forget you guys are like
<gq>
right above me
<gq>
i met somebody from whidbey island the other day
<gq>
i was like wut.jpg
<devyn>
I don't even know where that is
<gq>
eh, dw about it
<devyn>
oh okay cool
<devyn>
looked it up
<devyn>
yeah there are a lot of small islands along this half of the coast
<devyn>
many are surprisingly inhabited.
<gq>
mhm
<devyn>
funding isn't even the issue though
<devyn>
on both sides of the border
<devyn>
it's the mentality
<gq>
also true.
<devyn>
somehow teaching turned into "insert information into"
<devyn>
something we've talked about a lot is that early schooling should teach you more about how to learn and perhaps what to learn than actual subjects
<gq>
ah yes, the classic "to teach or not to teach critical thinking"
<gq>
i believe i figured out critical thinking at 17. my brain started cracking.
<devyn>
because education as it is right now really just teaches the basics of what anyone will need for to survive in society and have some kind of basic job, maaaybe
<gq>
which was a good thing! i needed to learn it sometime! but, uh, yeah.
<devyn>
and also obedience, in a really bad way
<devyn>
it teaches that you should just respect reputable sources of information
<devyn>
without questioning them
<devyn>
so yeah
<devyn>
critical thinking
<gq>
oh yeah. my life's never been quite the same after i realised that i was supposed to be getting A's for a reason
<vigs>
night, all
<gq>
not just. racking up perfect grades forever and ever into the sunset.
<gq>
nini vigs.
<devyn>
night vigs!
<vigs>
nice talking to you folks :D
<gq>
good luck with your dev!
<devyn>
you too :)
<vigs>
gq: lol thanks
<purr>
lol
<vigs>
o7
<gq>
o/
<devyn>
meh I was too busy doing other stuff in high school to even try to get perfect grades
<gq>
i know. i knew you in high school.
<devyn>
I know you did :p
<gq>
:P
<devyn>
it worked. I wouldn't have it any other way
<gq>
good!
<devyn>
even though now if I actually want a degree I have to kinda waste my time getting high GPA at the local college
<devyn>
(which I'm doing)
<devyn>
but hey it doesn't take that much time
<devyn>
and then I can actually go to university if I want
<devyn>
there are things that are worthwhile that so many people miss. @.@
<gq>
hehe
<devyn>
plus, since people aren't coming out of high school with any knowledge of CS, the first few courses are super super easy
<devyn>
also linguistics at college was fun and easy
<devyn>
taking another course of that
<gq>
haha my catholic ex was and is super ambitious
<gq>
could not handle trying to learn german
<gq>
in retrospect i am very fond of my memories of him freaking out about german vocabulary
<devyn>
hahaha
<gq>
"IT'S RUINING MY GRADES!" "THE TEACHER HATES ME!" "Q.Q"
<gq>
especially hilarious because he's blonde & is tall and has blue eyes.
<gq>
i'm like man, Nazi Germany would have LOVED you! look at you!
<gq>
and yet, could not handle the language. utter & complete meltdown.
<devyn>
it's actually pretty logical isn't it? like, the only mistake you could really make is trying to learn it like English
<devyn>
because it's better to remember words by their components rather than entire words
<gq>
exactly.
<gq>
he ended up somehow managing to get his language credit in Latin or Japanese or something instead.
<gq>
i hope it wasn't Latin; that would have been cheating since the church he went to held services exclusively in Latin.
<devyn>
he'd have the same trouble with Japanese since it's the same way, so I doubt it
<gq>
yeah, exactly.
<devyn>
must have been Latin
<gq>
he didn't want to do that because he hated weeaboos, so.
<devyn>
insecure people always go after weeaboos
<gq>
he's an odd duck. he's my age, a few months older. but he looks like a 35 year old law professor.
<devyn>
I think it's because they're such an easy target
<gq>
Successful Hipster.jpg
<gq>
devyn: precisely.
<gq>
he seemed witty, 'cos, duh, first semester at university, out in the world, omg, he knows so many things i don't know
<gq>
he's so smart & sophisticated
<gq>
& he likes me! why!
<gq>
elliott hates him, btw.
<gq>
which is hilarious.
<devyn>
well people who seem similar on the surface but are quite different underneath tend to not really get along, if that's what you're getting at :p
<purr>
hah
<devyn>
lol purr
<purr>
lol
<devyn>
<3 purr
<purr>
Let it be known that devyn hearts purr.
<gq>
nah, i wasn't getting at anything.
<gq>
i have an attention span of 5 seconds atm
<gq>
so it was more like me being like oh yeah, this is ec's chan! devyn knows ec!
<devyn>
haha
<gq>
my meds aren't really working right now :/
<gq>
so i'm on IRC to distract myself
<devyn>
that's okay, this is fun :p
<gq>
i'm just sad alexgordon isn't here
<gq>
then we could have a classic IRC crazy gabrielle moment
<gq>
when he asks how much crack i took & why
<gq>
:P
<joelteon>
yeah, how much crack did you "take"
<gq>
none!
<gq>
i slept 8 hours last night & everything.
<devyn>
I slept 3 hours last night and have a mosquito bite that I got last night that strangely isn't red at all but is quite swolen
<gq>
sounds infected.
<devyn>
I think it would itch more
<devyn>
it doesn't
<gq>
huh.
<devyn>
all that much
<devyn>
I just ignore it
<gq>
sounds like a hive, not a mosquito bite.
<gq>
hives don't normally last that long tho.
<devyn>
no, because I remember when I got it
<gq>
mm.
<devyn>
was walking home, mosquito lands on my arm
<devyn>
>_<
<gq>
>.<
<gq>
.what
<gq>
hm.
* gq
pokes purr with a stick
<gq>
-what
<purr>
<alexgordon> why, we lispers spend half as much time writing code as normal programmers, leaving the other half of our time for writing smug essays!
* purr
rrrr
<gq>
there we go
<devyn>
ah
<devyn>
facebook distracted me
<devyn>
hi
<purr>
devyn: hi!
<gq>
purr really missed you, devyn
<devyn>
yeah
* devyn
hugs purr
* purr
rrr
<gq>
lel.
<gq>
-what
<purr>
<prophile> the ELLIOTTCABLE as mercurial as always
<gq>
-what
<purr>
<s5fs> nexxy: i also hear a dragon lives there but i haven't found the commit
<gq>
-what
<purr>
<devyn> ELLIOTTCABLE, why don't you love me
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: ah, by the way, that only works if own[] and disown[] don't have the sharing semantics wherein you can grant responsibility of things you own and share them
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: so either we need to provide two variants (one that does that and one that doesn't), or something more clever
<gq>
devyn: it's nice of you to work when ec's fucked off to montana
<gq>
devyn: he'll appreciate it later, maybe
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<Cheery>
if the intention of VBA coding isn't to create pain. I don't understand what it is.
<katlogic>
VB is just continuation of the COBOL saga of 70s
<Cheery>
it's something of polar opposite for lisp
<Cheery>
lisp encourages thinking somehow. 'hey I can do it like this!'
<Cheery>
VB suppresses thinking.
<Cheery>
"there's only that way to do it, otherwise it blows up"
<Cheery>
this is complex thing.. realising that too
<Cheery>
and realising that my fucking brain handles it
<devyn>
it's probably not a good idea to use that part of your brain for it
<Cheery>
still broken..
<Cheery>
I understand where it comes from.. the variable ends up shadowed by another.
<Cheery>
or hmm..
<Cheery>
now it should work.. but it doesn't.
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<Cheery>
I can see it now
<Cheery>
it doesn't propagate the variable occurrences correctly.
<Cheery>
the fix I made didn't fix it.. hmm..
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<Cheery>
hmm
<Cheery>
the fix I made fixed the one case. but I found another while trying out variations of the same code.
<Cheery>
the behavior is the same as in the earlier case.
<Cheery>
something in my compilation is causing this.
<Cheery>
hmm..
<Cheery>
the visuals show that the value is bound correctly to the file-write
<Cheery>
and that the file-read result is bound correctly to the file-read
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<Cheery>
hmm
<Cheery>
the bugfix seems to have revealed another, unrelated bug
<gq>
that's how bugfixes work
<gq>
in Paws anyway
<gq>
Cheery: are you working on Paws?
<Cheery>
nope. in my own lang
<gq>
Cheery: cool. what's it called?
<Cheery>
snakelisp
<gq>
also thank God you aren't working on Paws; Paws will damn your soul to hell for all eternity
<gq>
Cheery: also cool!
<devyn>
gq: not working on Paws for ELLIOTTCABLE's sake… it's actually interesting and if it ends up working it will pretty much open up an entirely new paradigm
<Cheery>
aha.. now I understood why it crashes. ^^
<Cheery>
I could fix the cause of crash. have it cause a different error.
<gq>
devyn: that's the only reason anyone would ever want to work on Paws. being part of history is always cool.
<gq>
devyn: anyone who actually KNOWS ec should know to never do anything with his benefit in mind, it'll always backfire
<gq>
brbz
<Cheery>
ahahahaa.. it's working again but still broken. ^^
<Cheery>
I don't get it.
<Cheery>
the comparator gets the correct value
<Cheery>
well that's obvious. it's in the receiving continuation of the value
<Cheery>
but it doesn't actually update the count.
<Cheery>
the count -variable ends up nonzero
<Cheery>
found another thing that isn't exactly like it should be
<Cheery>
or hmm.. maybe this is correct. I just misinterpreted it
<Cheery>
quite of an enlightement when I figured that my code doesn't actually drive the variable upscope after detecting that the variable isn't a definition.
<Cheery>
devyn: I look on your YLM
<Cheery>
devyn: could you explain a thing about haskell?
<Cheery>
why is it so difficult for me to read it?
<Cheery>
I mean. lisp causes me some trouble. but it feels more trouble to write than read. interestingly
<Cheery>
some large mathematical expressions might be horrible in lisp too. I'll see it soon
<Cheery>
yrun ifc s fn si = either (return . Left) (yexec s) $ yread ifc fn si
<Cheery>
so where to start here... the first thing is the division.
<Cheery>
the pattern matching takes care that it's harder to find the focal (=) that would divide the pieces apart.
<Cheery>
maybe it's the font.
<Cheery>
another thing is this:
<Cheery>
either (return . Left) (yexec s)
<Cheery>
did . mean function composition?
<Cheery>
I get the impression of forth
<Cheery>
certain value flows are represented implicitly.
<Cheery>
it might be so simple issue
<Cheery>
I'm thinking of functions as single units, that take in n values, return n values.
<Cheery>
haskell thinks of functions as 1-arity lambdas. that take in 1 value and return 1 value.
<Cheery>
and the lambda returns another value if it's n-arity
<Cheery>
and the lambda returns another lambda if it's n-arity
<Cheery>
as far as I understood.. the factor programming language has similarities in this sense.
<devyn>
Cheery: mostly it's just really bad code, but yes, . means function composition
<devyn>
and data constructors are functions
<devyn>
and `return` lifts to monad
<Cheery>
hmm
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<Cheery>
maybe I should design myself a syntax file
<Cheery>
letsesee
<Cheery>
devyn: would you like to propose a file extension for snakelisp source files?
<Cheery>
right now I have none
<devyn>
`either (return . Left) (yexec s) $ yread ifc fn si` is equivalent to: `case yread ifc fn si of { Left x -> return (Left x); Right x -> yexec s x }`
<devyn>
Cheery: maybe .snl, .slisp, .sl, or even .snakelisp (long file extensions are kinda fun)
<devyn>
not like we live in 8-dot-3 land anymore
<devyn>
Cheery: also, no, factor isn't like that. factor is concatenative like FORTH
<devyn>
but that is called “currying”
<devyn>
(when you return another function to accept more arguments)
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<Cheery>
I see several good ones in your propositions. but can't decide between them. I guess I'll still stay without for small while
<devyn>
the really cool thing about YLM I think was the use of Church booleans
<devyn>
i.e., true = (-> (a b) a), false = (-> (a b) b)
<devyn>
that way you can do ((= a b) true-value false-value)
<devyn>
no need for any kind of `if` or `cond` or whatever