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<nmz787>
anyone need FIB work done?
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<nmz787>
anyone around?
<azonenberg>
yep
<azonenberg>
and no, i have no immediate short-term need for a FIB
<nmz787>
have you used one?
<azonenberg>
No, I've done a decent amount of SEM work and am currently learning TEM though
<azonenberg>
And I have things in mind that a FIB would be useful for but don't have the need just yet
<azonenberg>
Do you own one or just have access to it?
<nmz787>
hmm, i'm thinking of using this FIB for making lithography masks for microfluidics
<azonenberg>
I think that's massive overkill
<nmz787>
but I'm looking for a way to reduce the jagged edges since its raster CNC
<azonenberg>
fluidic masks don't need to be that small
<azonenberg>
so using a fib is a waste of time and money
<nmz787>
yeah but I think its cheap, and quick too
<azonenberg>
cheap?? quick??
<azonenberg>
no way
<azonenberg>
not any fib i've ever heard of
<azonenberg>
if you want cheap, quick masks at micron-scale features check out a place like laserlab.com
<nmz787>
the guy who is gonna let me use his said free/cheap, and that he engraved the entire bible in about 1 sq inch in an afternoon
<nmz787>
yeah I think you may have told me about laser lab
<nmz787>
but even that will still have jagged edges I think
<nmz787>
so still would be interested in a way to blur that step
<azonenberg>
Yes, but they're dirt cheap - like $50 for a mask the size of a large sheet of paper at 3.125um lambda
<azonenberg>
Do you need truly rounded edges or are diagonals OK?
<azonenberg>
45deg bends etc
<nmz787>
right but for my fluidics a jagged edge can mean a local pressure drop which can them make salts fall out of solution and a seed crystal develop which will change the volume and restriction
<azonenberg>
Also, look at the details of the etch processing etc after the mask
<nmz787>
well the edges between pixels is what i'm worried about
<azonenberg>
Your pixels will be rounded, not perfectly square
<nmz787>
unless the beam is twice the dpi
<azonenberg>
Choose a mask resolution smaller than your etch resolution
<nmz787>
i mean the beam is twice the diameter of center to center pixel spacing
<azonenberg>
that's what it comes down to
<azonenberg>
then you'll end up low-pass filtering off all of the high frequency noise
<nmz787>
so what do you mean my etch res?
<azonenberg>
Well, the sum total of your photoresist, developing, and etch process will have some limiting resolution
<nmz787>
i was planning on doin contact lithography with photoresin, then curing, then pouring PDMS over that and peeling back when cured
<azonenberg>
So what is the smallest feature you can actually produce doing this?
<nmz787>
maybe i could etch the cured resist
<nmz787>
then pour PDMS
<nmz787>
well the FIB can do like 20nm or something like that
<azonenberg>
Yeah
<azonenberg>
But you wont get 20nm with contact litho
<azonenberg>
lol
<nmz787>
maybe smaller than that
<nmz787>
nah
<nmz787>
i only need maybe 1 micron
<azonenberg>
So set your mask resolution to be maybe 500nm then
<nmz787>
but I'd like the edge between pixels to be smooth as possible
<nmz787>
ok so the FIB makes dots at 500nm spacing
<azonenberg>
I am almost certain that if you do contact litho and have 500nm noise that it will blur out unless you deliberately try to get super sharp focus
<azonenberg>
and for your needs, you dont want that
<nmz787>
what controls the blur
<nmz787>
i guess that's what i'm looking for
<azonenberg>
Lots of factors, things like the photoresin you're using
<nmz787>
just diffraction?
<azonenberg>
How long you develop
<azonenberg>
Diffraction
<azonenberg>
Distance from mask to wafer/substrate
<azonenberg>
Thickness of your resist
<nmz787>
would there be more blur with longer or shorter develop time?
<azonenberg>
If you develop longer, there will be a tendency to attack very thin features
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<nmz787>
hmm, ok
<nmz787>
well that's enough for me to think about for now
<nmz787>
let me know if you have any FIB ideas, I was thinking fresnel lens mold masters, so I could make a magnifying lens
<nmz787>
just for fun, but maybe it could be some $ making gimmick
<nmz787>
fresnel lens for your microbible
<azonenberg>
Lol
<azonenberg>
If you can do small chrome-on-glass masks that would be nice, but I suspect that the fib will cost more to operate than you anticipate
<nmz787>
i have no idea what the operating costs are
<nmz787>
the guy says he charges $375/hr to customers
<nmz787>
but if I was playing around on my own he could do way cheaper
<azonenberg>
That sounds about right, maybe a little on the high side
<nmz787>
like 10X cheaper
<azonenberg>
I can get time on the one at RPI for $188.50/hr as an outside industrial user
<azonenberg>
or, if i was on a sponsored research project, my grant would be billed at $45/hr
<nmz787>
yeah I just moved to portland OR, and have been looking for industry open labs
<azonenberg>
that's a flat rate for the cleanroom, includes use of any tool there
<nmz787>
really want metrology access
<azonenberg>
We have a really nice FESEM in the cleanroom here (zeiss supra 55)
<nmz787>
i used a really sweet white light interferometer at RIT that just shot out 3D profiles
<azonenberg>
There's also a bunch of scopes in the matsci department that are outside the cleanroom that are much cheaper to get time on
<azonenberg>
$45/hr for the jeol JSM-840 which is a dinosaur but good enough for a lot of stuff
<azonenberg>
65/hr for the FESEM
<azonenberg>
and they have a bunch of TEMs which i'm just learning how to use for a class but don't anticipate actually using in any of my work
<nmz787>
you might look into temwindows.com and their parent site simpore.com
<nmz787>
i was thinking about using them for protein sieves
<nmz787>
when working with DNA and protein reactors
<azonenberg>
interesting
<nmz787>
but if I get going with this FIB, I might be able to make small enough pores that would work, I'm not sure
<azonenberg>
well for the class i'm only using premade tem samples
<nmz787>
they say they can control the pore size well
<azonenberg>
and i dont anticipate using it myself outside of class
<nmz787>
within like 10 or 15 nm of your specified diameter
<azonenberg>
and FIBing pores sounds very expensive