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<mabox>
MIT SANDWITCH STALLMAN DEFENCE AT Cristosan.com
<no-defun-allowed>
Fucking again?
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<TLSer>
hey there, currently reading the little schemer and wanna try out my implementations on guile, however I always get "ERROR: Wrong type to apply (a b c)".
<aap>
also i think this channel isn't about scheme
<aap>
you mean (cdr lat)
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<TLSer>
isn't scheme just a dialect, and therefore a subset of lisp, and therefore part of lisp?
<no-defun-allowed>
The topic says Common Lisp, and Scheme is not Common Lisp.
<no-defun-allowed>
But I don't like telling people to go elsewhere without any consideration, and aap is right in saying that cdr(lat) is probably a typo, which should be (cdr lat).
<aap>
the channel name is a bit confusing really
<aap>
common lisp isn't the only lisp
<TLSer>
ok, thx for the help anyway
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<beach>
aap: There is no consensus about what it means for a language to be "a Lisp". We avoid the ambiguity here by considering only Common Lisp.
<aap>
yeah i understand that but i still think the channel name is confusing
<pjb>
TLSer: for lisp in general, you want ##lisp, for scheme in particular you want #scheme, and for guile specifically, #guile.
<pjb>
TLSer: note: once you've tested for null?, you only know that lat is not (), so (car lat) can fail, because you haven't tested for (cons? lat).
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<flip214>
when writing a macro, is there some library that allows to attach source forms to parts of the resulting code so that errors during runtime can display the correct part of the input?
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<ArthurStrong>
Hi all. Don't you think that PS/PDF versions of Guy Steele book CTLT is somewhat pale? I can't read it :( I tried to recomplie it from source code, but it requires too old Latex :( What can I do?
<pjb>
flip214: There's &whole and you can use it yourself in your error messages. You don't need a library for that!!!
<pjb>
ArthurStrong: install an old linux with an old latex in a VM.
<pjb>
This is the easiest.
<ArthurStrong>
pjb: oh, too hard-core
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<pjb>
flip214: but sometimes you want to give better human readable context, and the error can be detected outside of the macro, so you can do something like this: https://pastebin.com/ibMtzUsN
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<jmercouris>
ArthurStrong: what about changing the contrast of your display?
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<ArthurStrong>
jmercouris: maybe I'm paranoid, but it's like letters are too thin
<ArthurStrong>
jmercouris: TeX's quirk maybe
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<ArthurStrong>
Hi all. What do you use instead of assert()?
<jackdaniel>
(assert (= 1 2))
<ArthurStrong>
jackdaniel: I see, thanks. Is this standard or in external module?
<jackdaniel>
if you want a testing framework otoh, then you have too many options. if you are a minimalist take 1am, otherwise I'd advise you to choose between fiveam and fiasco
<Shinmera>
My very biased recommendation would be parachute.
<pjb>
I'm partial to com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.simple-test.
<Shinmera>
But there's a new one pretty much every month, so pyp
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<jmercouris>
(format t "hello world")
<ArthurStrong>
Which lisp has the best Windows support? Had issues with SBCL...
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<pfdietz74>
I've recently been using SBCL under Windows Subsystem for Linux on Windows 10. There are some issues, but they are WSL issues. Waiting for the "real" WSL to be available.
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<LdBeth>
ArthurStrong: you can obtain the dvi file from CMU AI repository, and obtain PDF by running dvipdf (which is part of a modern TeX distribution). This is what I did anyway. If you’re not likely to install TeX I can send you a copy anyway.
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<LdBeth>
Actually there’s some hbox overflow issue in the original dvi file. So if you want a some more perfect version I’d recommend do as pjb said, get an old latex distribution, and tuning it to avoid hbox overflow
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<ArthurStrong>
LdBeth: thanks, I'll try... in my case, texlive entering into compatibility mode with older Latex and fails to process anything...
<LdBeth>
Because the compatibility mode it not perfect.
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<LdBeth>
ArthurStrong: if you’re interesting we may start a collaborate project converting it to modern LaTeX
<LdBeth>
Actually CLTL2 was prepared on a Macintosh with Bluesky research’s TeX implementation
<LdBeth>
Some one has modified the source produced a better version already:)
<LdBeth>
Although it’s from the HTML version instead of the latex source
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<jackdaniel>
if I may ask, what do you need cltl2 for?
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<pjb>
cltl2 could be updated for CL…
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<pfdietz83>
Before you modify it, make sure you have permission to do that. The right to copy and the right to modify are separate rights under copyright law.
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<ArthurStrong>
Well, maybe we can ask Guy Steele himself..
<ArthurStrong>
jackdaniel: to read it?
* LdBeth
decides to only privately distribute the pdf made from the source
<jackdaniel>
ArthurStrong: I figured that much. maybe I should ask, why are you interested in reading it? for historical reasons or rather you want to compare how Common Lisp evovled between CLtL2 and the ANSI standard?
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<ArthurStrong>
jackdaniel: just want to learn CL. do you mean, Ctlt is outdated already?
<pjb>
ArthurStrong: CLtL2 was printed before CL was standardized.
<pjb>
ArthurStrong: but just with all books, it's still worth, modulo things that have changed.
<ArthurStrong>
so you do not recommend reading it?
<pjb>
I would recommend it, but you must take it with a grain of salt, checking everything with the CLHS.
<ArthurStrong>
OK, I see
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<flip214>
pjb: thanks for the answer. But given some macro invocation, while there are a few forms that will be kept from the source form, I'd like to know whether I can declare the _whole_ macro expansion as coming from that macro call.
<Bike>
flip214: are you talking about what sb-ext:with-current-source-form does?
<Bike>
if so, i don't believe there's any portability interface, or even if any implementation besides sbcl exports such a thing
<flip214>
Bike: yeah, perhaps. Is there some library that gives me generalization across a few implementations?
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<flip214>
Bike: thanks for the pointer, though!
<jjkola>
hi
<flip214>
though that says "in a macroexpander ..." -- that sounds as if it's used sbcl-internally. my macro isn't a macroexpander!?
<flip214>
but I'll just try it. Thanks!
<Bike>
...er, whta?
<Bike>
you're writing a macro, right? defmacro?
<Bike>
you're writing a macroexpander
<Bike>
well, you can see examples if you look at sbcl's internal macro definitions, like typecase uses it
<flip214>
well, I always considered MACROEXPAND-1 etc. to be the expander
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<flip214>
and not the macros that just "translate" some forms to other forms
<Bike>
well defmacro defines a macro expansion function, i'd say
<Shinmera>
macroexpand just calls the macro function
<Bike>
but whatever, point is i'm pretty certain it's intended to be used in defmacro and the like
<flip214>
I guess so, right
<flip214>
Shinmera: macroexpand first has to decide _which_ function to call, if any. it does quite some more things IMO.
<flip214>
but never mind -- thanks for the pointer!
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<pjb>
flip214: well, macros are expanded outside in, so yes, I guess, you can declare the whole macro expansion as coming from that macro call. Only, subexpressions can be further expanded.
<jackdaniel>
minion: please tell ArthurStrong about pcl
<minion>
ArthurStrong: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<jackdaniel>
this is a great book to learn Common Lisp
<minion>
ArthurStrongabout: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
<jackdaniel>
ArthurStrong: and this is another great book
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<ArthurStrong>
thanks!
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<jackdaniel>
sure
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<semz>
Is there a set of guidelines for DSL macros that allow embedded CL code? Think of ITERATE or HTML templating for examples. I'm looking for general designs to keep in mind, common pitfalls, et cetera.
<MichaelRaskin>
Common pitfall: doing some partial kind-of-code-walking and not documenting what exactly you do and what are the limitations
<MichaelRaskin>
Of course, in the HTML templating case you often define some macros that only walk your own DSL, not general CL code (in this case everything is fine)
<MichaelRaskin>
In some cases macrolet is useful.
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<aeth>
MichaelRaskin: a lot of HTML templating does full code walking
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<aeth>
All you really need to support, though is lambda and #' and variables though afaik. #'foo is just (function foo), so you'd just special case ((function foo) ...), (lambda ...), and a symbol that's not a keyword.
<aeth>
semz: ^
<aeth>
and lambda optional since that's by far the trickiest.
<aeth>
s/lambda/lambda's/
<semz>
aeth: Hm. For the sake of argument rather than any practical purpose: What if the body contains another (maybe even different with overlapping syntax) macro that does code walking? It would seem to me that the outer macro would clobber the inner macro's syntax.
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<semz>
Actually I guess you could just macroexpand during the code walker. Never mind.
<aeth>
semz: No, sorry, my point was that you can avoid a needing code walker if you only support functions and variables.
<aeth>
semz: e.g. (:your-macro (:+ foo 42 #'bar))
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<semz>
Ah, I see now.
<aeth>
semz: that could expand to (progn (format stream "~A" foo) (write-string " + " stream) (format stream "~A" 42) (write-string " + " stream) (bar stream))
<aeth>
It would be a bit awkward because anything fancy would exist in a flet above the macro
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<aeth>
but you avoid code walking, you just need to parse (function bar) which is the same as #'bar and then turn it into (bar stream)
<aeth>
or more likely (bar stream #|a bunch of keywords|# :allow-other-keys t)
<semz>
Yeah that's a pretty neat and clean special case.
<aeth>
right, so the only two special cases you need to interface with the outside world are (and (symbolp foo) (not (keywordp foo))) for variables and then in your list parsing check to see if the first element is the symbol cl:function (since #'foo is really the list (function foo))
<aeth>
obviously more can be useful
<aeth>
e.g. if you guarantee that the first element of a list has to be a keyword in your DLS, you could perhaps support more things
<aeth>
s/DLS/DSL/
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<aeth>
semz: The main issue with only supporting the two that I listed is that you'd have to create a closure in a flet any time you wanted custom input since the function is only called with the stream and possibly some keywords representing configuration or whatever, not something local to the function's context. So to say "Hello, $name" you'd need to create a local function that said that, and then call that function with #'your-local-function
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<aeth>
Unless you can represent it as a variable instead, where you can just use name directly.
<aeth>
So you might want to be able to express function calls in a more elaborate way, but you still don't need to support the full language in a code walker.
<aeth>
Alternatively/additionally, you could implement generic functions that are called by your macro at runtime. Then it's easy to add an :after
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<aeth>
You could turn the list (foo bar baz ...) where it doesn't start with a keyword into (foo bar baz ... stream #| keywords go here |# :allow-other-keys t) though, where the allow-other-keys allows your DSL to add more keywords to its API without making a breaking change.