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<hendursaga>
Alfr: Yes but in say French?
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<Alfr>
There's ~A with an appropriate string or ~/func-name/, but I think you'll have to write that translation yourself.
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<matthewcroughan>
Hey! I'm very new to lisp, I'm trying to demonstrate something to a friend using MQTT. There is a library for it here, but I just can't find any examples that lead me to success in loading it. https://github.com/ivan4th/cl-mqtt
<matthewcroughan>
(ql:quickload 'cl-async-repl) (ql:quickload 'swank) (as-repl:start-async-repl) leads to the following error
<matthewcroughan>
`Cannot initialize *SLIME-REPL-EVAL-HOOKS*, use (eval-in-gui-thread ...) form.`
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* Xach
has never tried those libraries
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<matthewcroughan>
Xach: well, I basically just wanna send some mqtt packets over the network :p
<matthewcroughan>
I've got the repos cloned, just wondering how I would load them and "run" the lisp files.
<Xach>
matthewcroughan: if i were just starting, i think i would avoid something that uses event loops, threads, and foreign libraries.
<Xach>
(i am not just starting and i still avoid those things, when i can help it, but if you have to use them, you have to use them)
<matthewcroughan>
Xach: I just want to submit some MQTT packets, using avail libraries, just because I want to prove to my friend it's possible.
<matthewcroughan>
Everything here is pure lisp, if we can't load that we're screwed ;P
<Xach>
oh, that's cool. i had the wrong impression about FFI, then.
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<Josh_2>
Well cl-async-repl isn't pure list
<Josh_2>
lisp*
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<Josh_2>
I don't know if the library still works It's 6 years old and has dependencies that don't exist in QL
<matthewcroughan>
>If anyone's interested I've wrote an MQTT client implementation in CL some time ago that doesn't need Java. It uses cl-async. Well, it probably has some bugs, and I didn't update it in a while, but it works most of the time from my experience
<matthewcroughan>
so much for bitrot mr assumption ;)
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<matthewcroughan>
spectacular
<Josh_2>
well It's good it works
<matthewcroughan>
now to try some code
<Josh_2>
Now would be the time to install a good development environment
<matthewcroughan>
It's a one-off.
<Josh_2>
Shame
<matthewcroughan>
besides, nix gave me one
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<matthewcroughan>
look into nix and what it does, put biases to one side and try nix-shell for something.
<Josh_2>
why are you making such an effort for a one off?
<matthewcroughan>
Josh_2: fun.
<Josh_2>
what is there to showoff in just running some random library?
<matthewcroughan>
turning a light on and off with lisp
<Josh_2>
okay fair enough
<matthewcroughan>
there's a guy here learning lisp and saying it's superior for everything, so I'm challenging my self to do what I did with bash in 1 minute ;D
<matthewcroughan>
In lisp*
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<Josh_2>
surely you would achieve that faster in bash because you understand bash better?
<Josh_2>
Also your mate is correct
<Josh_2>
ʕ·͡ᴥ·ʔ
<matthewcroughan>
Josh_2: I already achieved it in bash, now I've just spent 2-3 hrs trying to do it in Lisp for fun
<Josh_2>
lul
<Josh_2>
Does your friend come to this IRC channel?
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<matthewcroughan>
Josh_2: nope, he's just a streamer
<matthewcroughan>
this is his very first exposure to programming, we just gave him a book about lisp called "Common Lisp; A gentle introduction to symbolic computation"
<Josh_2>
Yes thats a good book
<Josh_2>
that was my first programming book
<matthewcroughan>
Josh_2: he's asking for further recommendations after this book, got any?
<waleee-cl>
out of curiosity why did you start with clisp?
<matthewcroughan>
that's just what happens when you google lisp.
<matthewcroughan>
I had no idea about these sbcl/abcl/everythings
<waleee-cl>
for you possibly
<matthewcroughan>
reminds me of Forth, how there are many variations upon forth, there are many forhts.
<Josh_2>
they are different distributions of Common Lisp
<matthewcroughan>
forths*
<Josh_2>
like Gentoo/Fedora/Ubuntu are different distributions of Linux etc
<matthewcroughan>
I don't want a development environment. I want to submit some bytes via UDP to an ip address.
<matthewcroughan>
If I can't do that in a lisp repl, what is it good for? :D
<matthewcroughan>
I will use vlime and perhaps even package it if I take a liking to lisp, but this can't be the way.
<waleee-cl>
matthewcroughan: you do realize that it's some work in most full featured programming languages?
<matthewcroughan>
No, it's not. You can just bang it out from memory. The MQTT protocol isn't complex, sure you won't implement the WHOLE thing.
<waleee-cl>
(eg python)
<matthewcroughan>
you could craft the packet necessary to submit to an ip address to contain bytes that resolve to the string "NO" in MQTT, then send it over UDP, in no time.
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<Josh_2>
yes you could do that in no time in CL
<matthewcroughan>
well how can we ping?
<matthewcroughan>
I can't really get any of the basic examples working.
<Josh_2>
Make sure to tell your buddy to check out portacle
<matthewcroughan>
I can't believe we were defeated.
<Josh_2>
if you know how MQTT is implemented you could just craft the packets manually
<matthewcroughan>
I sorta do, I may take some time in future.
<matthewcroughan>
I really just wanted to demonstrate that he indeed can't do certain things in LISP, because libraries don't necessarily exist for everything, because it's not "that kind" of language.
<matthewcroughan>
Because he talks as if everything is possible with LISP.
<Josh_2>
well everything is possible
<Josh_2>
It's turing complete
<matthewcroughan>
Sure, I just mean within my lifespan.
<matthewcroughan>
Microsoft Powerpoint is turing complete.
<Josh_2>
the library might not work properly but I saw someone had implemented a functioning MQTT client in Racket in 200 lines, converted that to CL wouldn't be hard
<Josh_2>
Sending data over a network isn't very hard
<matthewcroughan>
well, can you give me an example that does *anything* over the network from the sbcl repl?
<Josh_2>
well if you were using Vlime ie Vim with Slime then that communication is done over a local socket
<Bike>
sbcl comes with a bsd sockets system.
<Josh_2>
you could just (ql:quickload :dexador) (dex:get "https://google.co.uk")
<Bike>
i've never used it myself, but my understanding is it's a pretty thin wrapper over the berkeley API.
<Bike>
probably you could push bytes or whatever with that.
<Josh_2>
or just use usocket
<contrapunctus>
What's the Lispy way of determining if an optional system is available, i.e. installed?
<Josh_2>
put it in your :depends-on in your asd that way it'll be loaded when you load your library with quicklisp :P
<contrapunctus>
Josh_2: lol, _optional system_ - both systems work with as well as without each other.
<Bike>
contrapunctus: you could do (asdf:component-loaded-p (asdf:find-system whatever))
<matthewcroughan>
(CFFI::FL-ERROR "Unable to load any of the alternatives:~% ~S" ("libssl.so.1.1" "libssl.so.1.0.2m" "libssl.so.1.0.2k" "libssl.so.1.0.2" "libssl.so.1.0.1l" "libssl.so.1.0.1j" "libssl.so.1.0.1f" "libssl.so.1.0.1e" "libssl.so.1.0.1" "libssl.so.1.0.0q" "libssl.so.1.0.0" "libssl.so.0.9.8ze" ...))
<Bike>
oh, like that. i don't think sbcl wants to do those.
<Bike>
er, asdf.
<contrapunctus>
🤔
<Bike>
matthewcroughan: so you don't have libssl installed?
<Bike>
seriously though, if you want to do some low level udp whatever you should probably use usocket or sb-bsd-sockets or something. you don't need SSL for that.
<Josh_2>
Usocket is reasonable, but you aren't going to get anywhere just copying and pasting commands into the sbcl terminal repl
<Josh_2>
and I really hope that isn't how your mate is interacting with his lisp image, he needs to install slime and use that
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<Josh_2>
Hey beach
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<matthewcroughan>
beach: Hi, I'm a skeleton. I've been blasted by the light of Lisp, nothing left but a stump here.
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<matthewcroughan>
Bike: how does sbcl try to find libssl?
<matthewcroughan>
it just isn't finding it on my system.
<matthewcroughan>
do I really have to strace sbcl? ;D
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<Josh_2>
No answers because you are still just copying and pasting into the SBCL repl
<Josh_2>
and I have to go to sleep because It's 4am
<matthewcroughan>
Josh_2: Well yeah, because I can't figure out how to load things into the repl, I just copy and paste the deffun, what's wrong with that?
<matthewcroughan>
I want to load code that other people have written so that I can execute their functions. What exactly is wrong with that?
<Josh_2>
*sigh*
<matthewcroughan>
Are you telling me this is not exactly a repl? But something strange that you're trying to get me not to use because it's a bit of a lie?
<Josh_2>
yes what you are interacting with is a repl but It's got no arms, no legs and no eyes
<matthewcroughan>
I really wish `sbcl` would find libssl..
<matthewcroughan>
and that vlime was packaged for any distribution, at all
<Josh_2>
well emacs is the "goto" for writing Lisp, you can just install slime with elpa
<Josh_2>
But some folks use vlime
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<matthewcroughan>
do I really have to worry about what text editor I'm using just for this language?
<matthewcroughan>
that is really especially screwed up
<matthewcroughan>
is it a language, or is it an operating system?
<Josh_2>
uh
<Josh_2>
uuuuh
<matthewcroughan>
No really. I'm very alienated. Why can't I just write and run lisp?
<matthewcroughan>
It's such a strange world.
<matthewcroughan>
There's so much context necessary to even "run" lisp code.
<Josh_2>
normie programming is write, execute, debug repeat
<Josh_2>
It's perfectly possible to write CL like that but you are wasting your time and missing the point
<matthewcroughan>
If you bothered to look into Nix, it's a functional language and I love it.
<matthewcroughan>
But this is something else.
<matthewcroughan>
Josh_2: okay, mirror the statement.
<matthewcroughan>
"normie programming is write, execute, debug repeat"
<matthewcroughan>
"lisp programming is ... ... ... "
<Josh_2>
you are using CL like that and wondering why It's all screwy
<matthewcroughan>
sure, so what *is* the right way to use it?
<matthewcroughan>
please don't suggest a text editor change ;D
<Josh_2>
Interactively
<matthewcroughan>
please mirror the statement, "lisp programming is write ... ... "
<matthewcroughan>
if normie programming is "write, execute, debug, repeat", what is lisp?
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<Josh_2>
It's incremental design where you interact with the program and modify it while it runs
<Josh_2>
you write your little algorithms, check they work, change them while the execute etc
<Josh_2>
put your pieces together, change parts in and out, inspect things in the debugger while they are being used, interact with the stack trace etc
<matthewcroughan>
yeah I did understand some of that, as the program was running if I put something on the stack it would be as if it had hit a breakpoint and I could either continue or exit
<Josh_2>
yes
<matthewcroughan>
much like forth, honestly, in some ways
<matthewcroughan>
but forth is far more intuitive than this
<Josh_2>
if you use Vlime you will be able to properly interact with it, you will be able to inspect the frames on the stack, copy the objects that were arguments to functions to your repl etc
<Josh_2>
I've never used forth so I don't have an opinion
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<matthewcroughan>
Fair enough. I will experiment with it at some stage, tomorrow maybe. With a friend to hold my hand and squeeze it when I get stressed.
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<Bike>
"how does sbcl try to find libssl" dlopen, same as anything else
<matthewcroughan>
Bike: not quite, I'm using nix so it's probably trying something weird. Nix usually finds these oddities.
<matthewcroughan>
So for example, Firefox/Chromium will work fine and they'll find libssl in a nix-shell, but sbcl doesn't, because some programs just work differently in a so-called "impure" way that resolve these paths strangely.
<Josh_2>
well that library is looking for certain versions
<matthewcroughan>
I'll explain it when I'm less tired :D
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<Bike>
sbcl definitely uses dlopen. whether dlopen is doing something weird on nix i can't tell you.
<Bike>
firefox and chromium and stuff might be linked less dynamically
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<Bike>
dynamic dependencies might not work so well with nix's whole model
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<contrapunctus>
Weird, I was able to load my system "foo" just fine until yesterday, and today ASDF says "package FOO-TESTS does not exist" 🤔
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<contrapunctus>
Can anyone say if there's something wrong with these system definitions? https://ix.io/2Pfb
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<beach>
I get an error for that link.
<beach>
SSL received a record that exceeded the maximum permissible length.
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<contrapunctus>
beach: thanks for looking. Here's another - https//:paste.debian.net/1185306
<contrapunctus>
ASDF says "package SKYLAB-TESTS does not exist"
<beach>
Well, in order to load this file, that package must exist.
<beach>
Because you have a symbol SKYLAB-TESTS:SETUP-TEST-GIT-REPO in it.
<beach>
I am betting that package is created as part of the SKYLAB/TESTS system, maybe?
<contrapunctus>
It is
<beach>
So it must exist before it can be created.
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<jedii>
is there a lisp operaing system with a working web browser?
<jedii>
runs on amd64?
<beach>
contrapunctus: Do you see the problem?
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<beach>
jedii: I think Mezzano would be the only candidate, but I don't know about web browsers.
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* beach
feels ignored.
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<jedii>
heh
<jedii>
I'm back
<jedii>
how about a lisp web browser
<jedii>
honeslt I think people need about 3% ofHTML
<jedii>
not sure about HTML5
<jedii>
mayben that is a new model
<beach>
There is the Closure web browser that is pure Lisp, and there is Nyxt that uses foreign-code libraries.
<beach>
But Closure has not been maintained for some time, so I don't know the state of it.
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<beach>
Both operating systems and web browsers are non-trivial things.
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<beach>
Instead of a web browser, I would like to see collaborating modules for various rendering tasks.
<beach>
But that's not what you are asking, so never mind.
<beach>
contrapunctus: Did you faint?
<beach>
jedii: What is the reason for your questions?
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<jedii>
I want to replace linux and firefox if possible
<beach>
We are working on it, but it will take some time.
<beach>
You can help out if you like.
<jedii>
ok
<jedii>
ive never done a browser b4
<beach>
I would do one rendering module at a time.
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<contrapunctus>
beach: sort of, thanks for the pointer; I went looking at the system definitions of some libraries, and for the moment I'm thinking of putting the test-running form at the end of skylab-test.lisp itself
<contrapunctus>
..."sort of" for "do you see the problem", not "did you faint" lol
<beach>
OK. The problem is that when the reader reads the ASDF file, it sees that symbol and tries to intern it into the package of the prefix, but the package does not exist. It's that simple.
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<beach>
You can't submit a symbol with a package prefix to the reader unless the package exists.
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<Guest57554>
hi guys.
<Guest57554>
i am trying to get quicklisp to install clog and then just run the first demo.
<Guest57554>
i tried it on 3 different debian instances, clean sbcl / ql installs and i keep on getting feedback from the debugger that something is wrong. too noob to understand what the compiler wants, mostly i think this is an issue with quicklisp and not clog because everyone else can get clog installed just fine and then loaded just fine
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<Guest57554>
my apologies about that, getting used to apple magicpad + new driver for it.
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<contrapunctus>
Hm, so given a pathname or namestring, I want to get components like basename, extension, containing directory etc. Is there an established library for this? I'm looking at the UIOP reference, but it's not clear if it does this.
<pve>
contrapunctus: you might start with the cl:pathname-* and the *-namestring functions
<pve>
those should give you extension and directory at least
<pve>
basename too, actually
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<contrapunctus>
pve: oh thanks, that's nice. I'll add that to the cookbook, I guess.
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<pve>
your personal cookbook?
<contrapunctus>
The cl-cookbook lol
<contrapunctus>
Oh, I missed that it mentions acquiring the file extension, at least.
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<pve>
oh ok
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<adlai>
was it really that painful to include an implicit progn inside time !?
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* adlai
imagines some old wise fellow cautioning against ever attempting to time more than one thing at once, lest you run foul of sequentialism versus simultaneity
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<alanz_>
I am probably doing something simple wrong. Any hints?
<beach>
It looks like you are attempting an arithmetic operation on a list or a struct.
<beach>
alanz_: Oh, and Common Lisp does not have "exceptions". It has "conditions". The difference is very important, as phoe would tell you.
<alanz_>
sorry, I struggled with the word choice, now I know
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<alanz_>
beach, the section in the manual is where you highlight parts of the code with "Stickers", which I presume do some sort of tracing.So it is a wrapper around the original argument. I suspect some sort of hook is not being called
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<beach>
alanz_: You could look at the backtrace to get a better idea of what's going on.
<alanz_>
beach, thanks, this is an opportunity for me to learn, I will see what I can find
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<alanz_>
beach, FYI, I tried to apply a sticker to a variable substition in a macro, When I removed that, it works. I wondered about it at the time.
<beach>
OK. I am not familiar with SLY, so I don't know what that means. Sorry.
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<alanz_>
no problem. I think it is wrapping selected code with a statistics-gathering function. And that process is not able to be expanded in a macro. But I am in a happy place again, continuing the tutorial
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<JeromeLon>
Is there a way to know on which line a form was read after a load? I wrote a DSL, and I want to surface errors (and their line number) at a later analysis stage
<edgar-rft>
JeromeLon: built-in no, because Lisp reads code as "forms", meaning opening and closing parens like (...code...), it doesn't count line breaks internally
<JeromeLon>
phoe: interesting, thanks. It doesn't seem to know about line numbers, but it detects the original form indeed.
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<JeromeLon>
surely the reader knows about the current line number, as the compiler does use line numbers in error messages, so if I could access it at macro expansion time, I could indeed store it somewhere
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<nij>
Hello! If the function in a thread returns 1, how can I ask the thread to kill itself? Or should I make another thread that monitors and does the kill?
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<phoe>
what do you mean, kill?
<phoe>
just structure the thread function in a way that if 1 is returned, then the function returns
<phoe>
or if you can't do that in an easy way, use a non-local return - either GO/RETURN-FROM if you can do that lexically, or CATCH/THROW if you really really need it
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<nij>
By kill I mean destroy.. hmm.. you mean if the thread function returns correctly, then the thread terminates automatically? That make sense.. but why didn't my threads terminate themselves at midnight?
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* adlai
looks, for a few deep breaths, and the "| offtopic --> #lispcafe" suffix; and then asks,
<adlai>
are toplevel macrolets containing only a single defmethod one of the roots of evil?
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<adlai>
the only reason to kill&yank this macrolet to toplevel is to reduce column width of its body
<nij>
Ah I see.. my thread function did encounter an error, but it raises a condition. Usually, if I'm in front of my machine, I can choose manually for it to abort. But while I'm not there, it keeps staying there.
<adlai>
don't worry, eventually the power company handles those
<nij>
What should I do? Is #'ignore-errors safe to use?
<nij>
adlai: I run that every ten minutes, and they clutter my machine. Every morning it's freakin' hot.
<nij>
It will kill my machine soon if no action is taken :-(
<carkh>
easy, handle the error
<carkh>
even if it's to ignore it =)
<adlai>
in the scenario you described, ignore-errors will prevent that thread from lurking in the debugger
<nij>
lemme try it :D
<carkh>
leave a nice comment for future you
<nij>
carkh: Oh! There's #'handler-case
<carkh>
;; i'm evil, but not quite top-level macrolet evil
<adlai>
however, you must take care that whatever form is wrapped can return NIL without the caller entering the debugger with a similar error, because then you've accomplished nothing
<adlai>
e.g., one of my favorite macros is `(or (ignore-errors ,@body) 0), it brings CL one step closer to the bastard child of Haskell and PHP
<carkh>
when i started programming i had many of those (back then) try catch (nothing) and continue, they somehow completelly disapeared fromthe code i write today
<carkh>
i think there should never be a reason to do that
<carkh>
if you can't handle the error, just let it go up the stack
<adlai>
maybe monads will help?
<carkh>
or at least log the error or something
<adlai>
oh look, I found a use for modern mode: distinguishing between "maybe monads [will help?]" and "Maybe monads [won't help!]"
<carkh>
yes well mondads can be used for that, but we don't neeed those here in CL i think ?
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<adlai>
the Maybe monad is just (deftype maybe (type) `(or null ,type))
<adlai>
and honestly, I consider it one of the worst code smells in existence
<carkh>
monads are cool for pure functional stuff
<carkh>
then again i wouldn't go purely functional with CLL
<carkh>
CL
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<adlai>
it is a much worse root, of a much greater evil, than top-level single-form macrolets; i'd toss it somewhere around screensavers that surreptitiously test whether the user is colorblind
<nij>
i see, that's nice suggestion (the error handling part)
<nij>
(but why isn't maybe monad good @@?)
<carkh>
there was a talk from Rich Hickey about that i think
<adlai>
it's a root of evil because its use reduces the expressiveness of the type system in particular, and the code in general
<nij>
Anyway.. threads are mysterious for me. I have another mysterious thread, which doesn't come up while sbcl runs.. but it afterward shows up.. sometimes even in multiple instance. It has been eating my machine's resource secretly.
<adlai>
consider the much better, although more complex: (defmacro define-maybe-extension (type &optional name) #|have fun!|#)
<nij>
Question is.. how do I go on and see what it really is? I asked in #clschool yesterday, and it seems that there's no way to see what the thread function is, and even the start time and end-time.
<carkh>
nij: mhh what project are working on with sound ?
<nij>
No it's just a mysterious thread.
<nij>
I don't know what it is. Now I want to know what it is..
<carkh>
well ti's obviously sound related =)
<nij>
Can't we see more? Why by default we cannot get our hands on the thread function?
<nij>
I mean.. why isn't there #'thread-function so that (thread-function (make-thread #'func)) => #'func
<adlai>
your lisp compiler doesn't show this in the inspector?
<nij>
Show.. what ?
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<adlai>
try (mapc 'describe (bt:all-threads))
<adlai>
it might print the fully qualified slot name of the initial function
<adlai>
along with the name of various specific ones of those functions, if they weren't anonymous
<carkh>
it has a name, maybe grep the source code ?
<nij>
Isn't that weird? I consider "initial-function", "start-time", "end-time" the basic components of a thread that should be inspectable.
<nij>
carkh: what do you mean :O ?
<carkh>
your thread is named "Mixer thread 44,100 Hz"
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<carkh>
search yoru source code for "Mixer Thread"
<carkh>
probably in some sound related library you loaded directly or inderctly
<carkh>
indirectly
<nij>
hmm lemme see
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<contrapunctus>
Any library for CL which makes paths behave like they do in the UNIX shell and in other Lisps? 🤔 The behavior has been very unpleasantly surprisingly so far.
<nij>
OH It's from a package called MIXALOT :(
<Xach>
contrapunctus: what do you mean?
<nij>
I don't even recall having it.
<Xach>
contrapunctus: what's an example of differing behavior that has unpleasantly surprised you?
<Xach>
contrapunctus: *default-pathname-defaults* is the key there.
<adlai>
nij: CL threads usually have some dynamic context, too; and "time can be a disaster", so careful with that expectation
<Xach>
contrapunctus: it is much more useful than the notion of a process cwd, but it *is* different. so when i care about them staying in sync, i use something like (with-working-directory path <body>), which sets both the cwd and *default-pathname-defaults*
<adlai>
nij: in some implementations, you can change the binding of a special variable that another thread sees, without needing to interrupt.
<adlai>
it is arguably safer, or at least more polite, to use e.g. #'bordeaux-threads:interrupt-thread for that, so the bindings are modified by the referencing thread
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<nij>
hmm sounds like it relates to that "functions are hard to serialize"
<yottabyte>
equwal: if memory serves, drakma doesn't work if you're using query parameters and a request body simultaneously
<yottabyte>
which is actually a problem in puri I think
<Xach>
contrapunctus: it's fair to say you don't like it, but it need not be surprising, and it isn't without its advantages.
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<contrapunctus>
Xach: thanks for your response, I guess I'll explore it in greater depth instead of impetuously writing a new path API as I was thinking 😄 I suppose it can be advantageous, but it was definitely "wtf" for me - completely contrary to the behavior I've come to expect in Guile, CHICKEN, or Elisp.
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* adlai
wonders whether the (list* "public" "domain" paths) horseshoe increases the effectiveness of unlicensing
* adlai
also curses himself for being slightly too amnesiac with his repl history, and losing the throwaway code that was the beginnings of a "licensing paralegal" addon
<adlai>
despite being almost entirely built on top of asdf, it was aimed to exist at the level of a quicklisp addon, since asdf itself is probably too low-level to ask much beyond whether source code is loadable.
* adlai
does not, currently, recall using any symbols from outside CL and ASDF other than ql:system-apropos
<Lycurgus>
unlicensing? sounds like removing license files
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<Lycurgus>
bold soldiering if so
<adlai>
it could be parsed thus, although there's also a license that is named "Unlicense", for cases where an author wants to explicitly designate that something is public domain
<adlai>
merely unlinking license files and deleting copyright lines can result in people wasting lots of time trying to figure out who wrote something, even when they don't intend to comply with clauses in the license
<Lycurgus>
ah
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<nij>
Oh no.. I just upgraded sbcl system-wise, and now my wm breaks :-(
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<adlai>
so don't recompile stumpwm every ten minutes!
<nij>
"#<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM for "file "/usr/lib/sbcl/contrib/sb-bsd-sockets.fsl" {1002ACC963}> is a fasl file compiled with SBCL 2.1.1, and can't be loaded into SBCL 2.0.11..
* Lycurgus
upgraded to 2.1.1 and thought it broke ql but it didn
<adlai>
it's arguably even a good idea to have separate versions of the CL implementation for something as fundamental as the window manager. I could probably brick my stumpwm install with certain updates, although it does not default to using the latest compilers unless I manually recompile.
<adlai>
nij: you're using a system-supplied stumpwm package?
<nij>
It's weird.. now I have sbcl 2.1.1.. but seems that stumpwm is trying to use 2.0.11?
<nij>
adlai: I will heavily consider keeping my own implementation after solving this disaster.
<nij>
xD
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<adlai>
your stumpwm executable is still whichever compiler was used to produce that executable; if it loads libraries from /usr/lib/ ,then it should be the same version as the compiler that places those.
<nij>
I think I compiled stumpwm manually, but forgot if that's the case. At least the system-package manager doesn't register having stumpwm.
* adlai
does not recall encountering a situation where stumpwm loads ~any~ fasls
<nij>
So.. I should recompile my stumpwm?
<nij>
adlai: yeah if I keep my config empty, then nothing bad happened.
<adlai>
right now you can't use it without aligning those versions - either downgrading SBCL, or recompiling stumpwm with the newly installed compiler
<nij>
Currently I have most of them commented, except (ql:quickload '(:pac1 :pac2 ..))
* adlai
is puzzled as to why this is necessary; the stumpwm compilation process should produce a self-contained executable
<adlai>
I recommend that you confirm that is what your build script will produce, before setting yourself up for a situation where you need to recompile the already-working program every time you update the compiler
<adlai>
e.g., SBCL has new releases each month, yet that shouldn't force you to recompile stumpwm each time
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<mfiano>
Welp, optimzed CL (SBCL), is significantly faster than _heavily_ optimized C# (for this particular set of algorithms on this particular hardware).
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<nij>
Even sly doesn't open itself correctly, it has been initiating itself for almost half an hour.
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<Josh_2>
mfiano: doesn't sound like a welp to me
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<flip214>
mfiano: please write that down somewhere and provide a link, I'd like to show people such results
<mfiano>
Yeah and it could likely be a lot faster, since there are a couple that do not use simple-arrays, but simple-vectors
<Lycurgus>
C# hardly surprising;c++ woulda been
<Lycurgus>
*c/c++
<Lycurgus>
unless 'heavily optimized' meant rewritting it for somethihng other than the .net vm
<mfiano>
Heavily optimized means constructing the algorithm, data structures, and types to satisfy the compiler.
<Lycurgus>
k
<mfiano>
I did the same for CL, so it is not a direct comparison, although it is bit-perfect with the reference implementation
<Lycurgus>
is there a CL generally held to be the best performing?
<Lycurgus>
(other than ones that compile to C)
<mfiano>
SBCL
<Bike>
among the free implementations, sbcl has the best optimizing compiler
<Bike>
does better than ecl which compiles to C
<Lycurgus>
great!
<Bike>
optimizing lisp involves different things than optimizing C
<Lycurgus>
yes that's what I made the proviso
<edgar-rft>
C is worsified Lisp :)
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<mfiano>
Some things are faster in CL than C
<mfiano>
Look at cl-ppcre for example, that builds regexps at compile time that outperforms Perl's C implementation of a virtual machine. Also Julia is a dynamic language and holds the current record for terraflops per second on a super computing cluster.
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<Lycurgus>
perl
<mfiano>
The engine is C
<Lycurgus>
how about vs the boost lib?
<mfiano>
It depends on your problem domain
<mfiano>
There is no faster language
<Josh_2>
unless you take an average speed between a variety of problem domains
<Josh_2>
then you will most likely find that python is slow
<mfiano>
and the metrics, and the hardware, and the scheduler, and the...
<Bike>
if you have an average over domains you don't have something that's as useful for evaluating how to solve a particular problem
<Lycurgus>
s/what/why/
<Bike>
not everything needs to be put on a linear scale, you know?
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<Lycurgus>
'member function points? that used to be a thing. In practice, the labor required to get a thing done generally trumps other considerations
<Lycurgus>
with exceptions
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<thmprover>
Good morning, friends
<Josh_2>
Hi
<thmprover>
Out of curiosity, has anyone written Lisp code which will emit, say, Fortran code, compile it, execute it, then use the results? That is to say, has anyone used such a strategy?
<beach>
What would the use case be?
<heisig>
thmprover: I did something like that, but with C code instead of Fortran code. I wouldn't recommend it though.
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<heisig>
Foreign function calls and such kind of code loading are quite the pain. I'd recommend generating Lisp code and using CL:COMPILE instead.
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<beach>
heisig: I didn't get the impression that FFI was involved in the suggestion.
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<Nilby>
beach: I imagine the use case is being be physicist and it's not accepted "proof" for publication if it doesn't use the old fortan math code that nobody understands.
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<beach>
Hmm.
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<thmprover>
beach: I'm working on some climate modeling, and there are a number of variations of a model (a family of families of models) I'd like to investigate, and I may delegate a lot of the work to pre-existing Fortran libraries.
<beach>
thmprover: So why is Common Lisp involved?
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<thmprover>
heisig: interesting to know FFI is tedious, but I was thinking of stand-alone programs.
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<thmprover>
beach: Oh, I've written a lot of CL code already for related computations, and I'm using the results later on in my CL code (or, I would like to)
<Nilby>
Unfortunately Lisp math gets more accurate results, with rationals, contaigin, bignums, etc., so it's wrong.
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<Nilby>
And unlike CS, other sciences doesn't ususally give you much credit for the cool new program that did the maths.
<thmprover>
Nilby: my background is actually in numerical analysis, so you are preaching to the choir :)
<Nilby>
Ahh. :)
<thmprover>
And, unfortunately, I am not smart enough to solve the Navier-Stokes-Fourier equations by hand :(
<Nilby>
Hench perhaps your interest in Lisp.
<thmprover>
Scheme was the first "real" language I learned, CL has better performance without sacrificing, uh, "high-level-ness"
<adlai>
thmprover: it's not a matter of smartness, those are either an open problem, or the kind of tedium that you can attack using any reasonable symbolic algebra system; and CL does have one of those.
<Nilby>
Unfortunately, I did math homework in the computer since the beginning, so I that's all I know.
<adlai>
even the open problem is imprecisely specified; e.g., existence is not an open problem in the context where you are using those equations, only in pathological "let's pretend that #lispcafe is a boundary that is both open and closed" cases
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<thmprover>
adlai: as of present, no CAS is capable enough to solve the equations, it can only be done by numerical methods, specifically via numerical linear algebra. And sadly, CL lacks good numerical linear algebra libraries. (I say this with love.)
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<adlai>
my guess is that if you are going to the trouble of implementing the FORTRAN grammar, you might as well do so using automated tools and the formal specification, rather than writing your writer by hand; and then you might as well leave the parsed algorithms in your IR, rather than keeping yet another compiler in your OODA loop...
<adlai>
I was not suggesting using a CAS for numerical solutions, only for investigating the questions that you don't want to derive manually
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<adlai>
maybe after a few Fields medals that nobody understands, Perelman will get another call after making another impressive step for humanity
<adlai>
maybe not.
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<Nilby>
I used to have a hobby of re-implementing some fortan physics code in Lisp, but I didn't understand what I was doing until a plotted a graph.
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<thmprover>
adlai: ah, I see, in that case I agree with your train of thought about using a CAS for guiding symbolic reasoning. I'd have to take another look at automated tools. I'm still investigating what other routes are available here, so I'm just "thinking out loud" here.
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* adlai
has never heard a positive testimonial from people who actually went ahead with such a strategy, instead of direct FFI
<thmprover>
Yeah, there may be good reason for that! ;)
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<prxq>
adlai: what strategy? I used a lot of f2cl-ed code once uppon a time. Was fine. But I think I might have misunderstood something :-)
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<prxq>
thmprover: I don't know anyone who has used a Fortran compiler as an assembler backend for some other compiler. People have used C a lot for that.
<prxq>
With SBCL it usually isn't worth the hassle. It's pretty fast as it is.
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<prxq>
the main problem with climate models is sensitivity to uncertainty. If you want to end your career quickly check that out and tell your supervisor the results ;)
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<thmprover>
prxq: Regarding Fortran-vs-C, a lot of the numerical linear algebra libraries are written in Fortran (which is what guided my judgement), and a small-but-growing number of C++ libraries which seem competitive.
<thmprover>
Regarding model sensitivity, yeah, it seems like that's a huge part of the field, which is interesting. As a mathematician, I'm more inclined to be skeptical of my own results, and couch any findings in swaths of disclaimers and caveats. (It's also why I'm a terrible salesman.)
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<fitzsim>
is it possible on Debian to install quicklisp system-wide, such that no ~/.sbclrc is needed for a given user, yet still anything installed by the system-wide quicklisp is accessible via asdf:load-system?
<fitzsim>
apt install cl-quicklisp seems to just install /usr/share/common-lisp/source/quicklisp/quicklisp.lisp, but each user still has to set it up, from what I can tell
<fitzsim>
ideally I'd like to do all quicklisp operations system-wide, and have the results available to users via asdf, without per-user configuration
<fitzsim>
just joined #quicklisp in case replies make more sense there
<Bike>
you define an /etc/sbclrc file i think it's loaded by sbcl before the user sbclrc
<Bike>
so you can put the quicklisp load there
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<etimmons>
fitzsim: what do you mean by "do all quicklisp operations system-wide"? It sounds like you want an administrator to ql:quickload things and have the users only use asdf:load-system, but want to make sure
<prxq>
fitzism: if you want to generate code, you can choose your backend. C simply makes more sense, normally, because people know it better.
<etimmons>
There's nothing stopping you from installing quicklisp to a shared folder and loading it in a system wide init file like Bike suggested. But you'll have to get file permissions right if multiple users can quickload and potentially install new systems to the shared folder
<etimmons>
But if you want the more restricted case of a single user installing systems via Quicklisp and making them available, you can probably just configure ASDF system wide to look for systems inside the central quicklisp folder (there are a multitude of ways to do that)
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<adlai>
prxq: once upon a time, for whatever odd reason, I had no carrion luggage on a long flight across the pond and actually read a duty-free catalog, back in the years when those things advertised a turntable that burns CD-ROMs; my guess is that f2cl doesn't get driven in reverse much after it's had its run.
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<fitzsim>
etimmons: re: "... but want to make sure"; that's correct
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<fitzsim>
I guess I thought this would be set up automatically by Debian
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<fitzsim>
unless I reconfigure quicklisp too, I think this'll mean pointing asdf configuration to somewhere under /root/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp
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<nij>
Help.. I upgraded my sbcl this morning and every thing get messed up. I'm unable to return to that state.. so would just fix any error that pops out anyway.
<nij>
Currently, I have trouble connecting to slynk server from emacs.
<nij>
In emacs, running sly and turn on a slynk server port, then `M-x sly-connect` does connect to that server successfully.
<nij>
However, if I run sbcl from terminal, quickload slynk, and open a slynk server with a port, then `M-x sly-connect` doesn't connect to that server correctly.
<nij>
The error from the emacs debugger, while connecting, is given here https://bpa.st/AAUA ..
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<Bike>
nij: the error says (i think) that sly-mrepl--insert-prompt is being called with three arguments when it expects four to five
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<nij>
OH lemme see!
<Bike>
uh, hopefully you saw my messages i guess
<Bike>
long story short my guess is there's a cache out of wack
<nij>
cache out of wack?
<Bike>
like sbcl from terminal and sbcl from emacs are loading different versions of slynk for whatever reason, i mean
<Bike>
your emacs is using the new one but your terminal sbcl isn't sending it what it expects
<Bike>
maybe it's as simple as ql:update-all-dists, i don't know
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<nij>
lemme try
<nij>
im desperate enough to try anything
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<Bike>
if that doesn't work you'd probably have to finagle sbcl to load the new slynk manually
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<Bike>
which is doable but sort of annoying
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<nij>
It doesn't work.
<nij>
How to check which slynk sbcl runs?
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<Bike>
hm, dunno how to get it problematically. you can use (ql:where-is-system :slynk) and then look at the asd file
<Bike>
s/problematically/programatically/
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<nij>
! ~/.quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/sly-20210124-git/slynk/" VS ~/.emacs.d/.local/straight/repos/sly/slynk/"
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<Bike>
oh. well, that's probably it then
<nij>
I see. I'm using doom, which grabs another piece of slynk to emacs dir.
* nij
almost burst to tears
<Bike>
there's some clever way to configure asdf to find certain systems, but I don't understand it well enough to help you there
<Bike>
i only know the ancient dumbass way, which is (push "/path/to/system" asdf:*central-registry*)
<Bike>
or, if sbcl from emacs works fine, you could figure out what it's doing and copy that
<fitzsim>
Bike: thanks for the suggestion; it looks like Debian's cl-quicklisp package doesn't really support what I want to do without a bunch of extra configuration
<Bike>
no prob
<fitzsim>
so I'll just stick to using quicklisp in per-user home directories
<nij>
lemme try. Sincere thanks from me, Bike.
<fitzsim>
FWIW, Debian's cl-asdf package works the way I was expecting cl-quicklisp to work
<fitzsim>
without any ~/.sbcrc or /etc/sbclrc munging
<Bike>
that's good
<Bike>
debian's common lisp packages used to be really annoying so i'm glad they've fixed them up apparently
<fitzsim>
it's just too bad that Debian doesn't have "cl-mcclim" yet
<fitzsim>
(and it's many dependencies)
<fitzsim>
*its
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<nij>
Bike...
<nij>
It werked.
<nij>
Tears out
<Bike>
oh, good.
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<Bike>
it's unfortunate that sly didn't report a version mismatch itself
<Bike>
that might be an interesting feature to add. i think slime/swank has it
<nij>
You mean on quicklisp?
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<nij>
I think doomemacs just pull the latest version by default. It's my fault.. I should have pinned down the version.
<nij>
Now I'm restarting stumpwm and see if I can connect to it from mrepl. Thanks again, very much.
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<Bike>
it's nothing to do with quicklisp. I mean, the emacs sly and the lisp slynk are two different systems that have to communicate, right? so there's a protocol between them. At the start of communication they could compare and make sure they're using the same version of the protocol, and so give you a more comprehensible error like "version mismatch:
<Bike>
sly 3.2 slynk 3.0"
<Bike>
you'd still have to update stuff, but you wouldn't have to dig through emacs's stupid backtraces to understand the problem
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<adlai>
what's the meaning of the symbol names that have more than one consecutive hyphen?
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<phoe>
haven't seen them around CL
<adlai>
I guess it was a typo
<Nilby`>
I think most of the time it means a "minus" that happens to be next to a "hyphen", e.g. SB-KERNEL:TWO-ARG-- SB-VM::FAST---MOD64/FIXNUM=>FIXNUM
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<mfiano>
In elisp, that means it's private, because they lack package qualifiers.
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* adlai
frequently sees such names in emacs tab completion; and has also encountered them occasionally in URLs generated by Coleslaw, so did not assume it was a typo
<adlai>
there is probably no reason to ever use consecutive spacing hyphens in a CL name, given the variety of punctuation that is allowed
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<warweasle>
Hello. Has anyone gotten the e-trade api to work with lisp?
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* warweasle
is having trouble getting cl-oauth to work without knowing anything about oauth.
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<ralt>
Bike: sly/slynk does warn you on version mismatch
<ralt>
At least I've seen it do so for me
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<Josh_2>
When using cl-autowrap how do I get c-include to prefix all function names with <package>?
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<ralt>
(BOUNDP 'symbol) returns NIL for symbols declared with (DEFINE-SYMBOL-MACRO). It feels like a bug, doesn't it?
<ralt>
I guess in theory it's not but... it feels like it should be, when define-symbol-macro is used in practice :/
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<Bike>
the symbol isn't actually bound if it's a macro
<Bike>
even if it is a macro, you can still do (setf (symbol-value 'symbol) whatever) to make it bound, I think
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<Josh_2>
This library I'm trying to wrap with cl-autowrap has 24 header files, do I need a c-include for each one?
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<Josh_2>
seems I can use :include-sources
<ralt>
Bike: thanks for the symbol-value accessor suggestion
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<Bike>
keep in mind that having something as both a symbol macro and a bound variable is really confusing
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<ralt>
Bike: this is in the context of https://gitlab.com/ralt/pvars , where I'm trying to hide away the fact that those are not bound symbols
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<Bike>
i see
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<Josh_2>
Do I have to write like 6 different system definitions to use cffi/c2ffi with 6 different header files?
<Josh_2>
5 actually
<Josh_2>
this is my first time doing this
<Josh_2>
one of the examples is the sdl bindings and they have a new defsystem for each different .h
<Josh_2>
maybe I can just have 5 components
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<jasom>
Does fare-quasiquote-optima not work anymore? With the fare-quasiquote readtable, this fails: (optima:match '(1 (2 3) 4 5) (`(a (b ,c) ,@d) (list a b c d)))
<jasom>
with undefined function LIST*P
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<jasom>
switching to trivia works fine, but it would be suboptimal if optima stopped working