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<DocScrutinizer05> on a preliminary sidenote, resuming on my previous note about investor: looks extremely good :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon: we have a job for you :-) We need a "FOSS" OS on N(eo)900 to already demonstrate there *is* a working OS available
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<Arch-TK> If I had the device / the time to find out what exactly it needs and more time I could do that.
<DocScrutinizer05> how much for installing a 100% FOSS maemo built from source on a N900 and demonstrate what's working without proprietary blobs, and then show how a user would import the probably needed blobs to make a complete working fullgrown maemo?
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<DocScrutinizer05> (not built on N900 of course - install on N900 ;-D )
<freemangordon_> DocScrutinizer05: define "working" :)
<bencoh> did you say "investor" ?
<DocScrutinizer05> for a start a X11 display possibly even with hildon desktop would be already fine
<DocScrutinizer05> bencoh: yep
<freemangordon_> hmm, we'd need binary blobs for that, unless HW accell is disabled
<DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon_: nota bene we want a paid work
<freemangordon_> ah
<DocScrutinizer05> you're not supposed to do that for free
<freemangordon_> hmm, I have to think about that, but I am afraid I don;t have the free time needed to dedicate on such a task
<freemangordon_> but, lemme think about it
<DocScrutinizer05> well, just see how much free time you can allocate and we#ll decide if it's enough
<freemangordon_> maybe a joint effort from 2-3 guys would be better
<DocScrutinizer05> sure, find partners, Neo900 UG is not averse
<freemangordon_> I promise nothing :)
<freemangordon_> will see what can be done. Is there a dealine?
<DocScrutinizer05> you know better who's competent and fits into such a team
<freemangordon_> *deadline
<DocScrutinizer05> no deadline :-)
<freemangordon_> ok, define one then ;)
<freemangordon_> end of june?
<DocScrutinizer05> but please don't delay too much, I'd love to see an answer in next 7 days
<freemangordon_> ok
<bencoh> now everyone, /clear, this "no deadline" line just never existed
<DocScrutinizer05> we will think about schedule requirements when we see what can get done at all
<freemangordon_> DocScrutinizer05: I'll think about how that can be organized and will discuss with you further
<DocScrutinizer05> generally rather speed up the process. If more team members help, get more :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> thanks :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> just in case you wonder: >>I would also suggest that you move forward by porting a few OS's and getting a few developers involved; I could also fund this side<<
<DocScrutinizer05> [quote of a source not to be named yet]
<DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon_: see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308 -> http://omappedia.org/wiki/Maemo_Getting_Started#Beagle -- importing the free (as in beer) BLOB PowerVR drivers from TI is not a problem
<DocScrutinizer05> ...if they are really needed
<freemangordon_> DocScrutinizer05: if PVR driver is not a problem, then things should be much easier
<freemangordon_> unless there is a requirement for upstream libs
<DocScrutinizer05> no, to start with we only want a 'legal' demo
<freemangordon_> so, maemo5 with stripped closed parts?
<DocScrutinizer05> yes
<freemangordon_> booting to h-d only? with no telephony etc. that should be easily doable, just build infra should be set-up
<DocScrutinizer05> demonstrate that maemo5 "works" without closed&copyrighted parts, then show how user could import the closed&(C) parts into such system from their own maemo5 image
<freemangordon_> hmm, importing from FW image is not something I would recommend
<freemangordon_> but I guess we should find a way to "make up" a package from binaries in the rootfs
<DocScrutinizer05> did you ever look into freetz? they basically do what we need: they use the AVM fritzbox FOSS sources and build a system, then during build the 'fiasco image' of AVM gets downloaded and extracted and the proprietary drivers e.g. for DSL and WLAN get integrated into the otherwise built-from-scratch system
<bencoh> how would you "build maemo" from scratch/source?
<freemangordon_> bencoh: what is teh problem?
<bencoh> is there an autobuilder button "compute deps and rebuild" or something?
<DocScrutinizer05> so they don't distribute nonfree stuff but leave it up to user to fetch those blobs her/himself
<freemangordon_> why autobuilder?
<bencoh> I dunno, because it autobuilds packages and fetches deps where needed
<bencoh> what would you do? display a build deps tree and start at the root?
<freemangordon_> wouldn;t debootstrap do the job?
<bencoh> from source? not that I know of, no
<bencoh> debootstrap fetches binary packages
<freemangordon_> why source, we have repository.maemo.org
<bencoh> you'd need to push FOSS version of every package in rootfs there, then
<bencoh> s/rootfs/stock/
<freemangordon_> it is there already
<DocScrutinizer05> we need to demonstrate we can *build* an OS for a Neo900 proto (which is N900 so far)
<freemangordon_> hmm, ok
<DocScrutinizer05> we even need to *provide* that build which is _not_ the stock fremantle maemo5
<freemangordon_> ok, got it
<bencoh> freemangordon_: hmm, we don't have our own build from source in the repos, afaict :)
<DocScrutinizer05> the idea being that later on we can provide this as OS for Neo900
<freemangordon_> yes, as this is debian based :)
<freemangordon_> DocScrutinizer05: does the "distro" shall include toolchain as well?
<DocScrutinizer05> I need a build where we can state "see, it already 'works', we only need to adapt a few things which are unique in Neo900, then users can download this very image to Neo900 as they now can download it to N900"
<freemangordon_> what is not clear to me is - do you need fiasko or a system which builds fiasko?
<DocScrutinizer05> well, actually for now (N900 proto) we will exploit fiasco. On Neo900 we will boot from uSD
<bencoh> would vanilla debian do?
<freemangordon_> bencoh: we don;t have working h-d for debian
<freemangordon_> because of gtk3
<bencoh> debian dropped gtk2?
<freemangordon_> no, but gtk2 in maemo is patched a lot
<bencoh> ah
<DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon_: consider the Neo900 maemo build shall also run on beagleboard for example
<freemangordon_> DocScrutinizer05: still, I don;t understand the requirement - is it a system, which pulls sources from $somewhere, builds .debs and creates a distro on fiasco/mmc or fiasco/mmc image
<DocScrutinizer05> not mandatory, but as a perspective
<DocScrutinizer05> a build system
<freemangordon_> ok
<freemangordon_> it is clear now
<DocScrutinizer05> think of hosting that stuff on neo900.org - also not mandatory but a perspective
<freemangordon_> DocScrutinizer05: also, what about the toolchain? Shall it be build as well or pre-build toolchain is ok?
<DocScrutinizer05> prebuilt is ok
<freemangordon_> ok
<freemangordon_> then, some scripts in SB should do the job IMO
<DocScrutinizer05> actually it's sufficient when user can e.g. download a VM and start a make in it
<freemangordon_> ok
<DocScrutinizer05> we don't need to build on server
<freemangordon_> sure
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<freemangordon_> though, for the real-life, I don;t think bulding from source is something the lusers should do
<DocScrutinizer05> sure, we can provide binaries for all the free stuff
<freemangordon_> for example - QT build takes ~1 hour on quad core
<freemangordon_> same for microb
<DocScrutinizer05> user will nevertheless do some "building" to integrate the nonfree blobs
<freemangordon_> etc.
<freemangordon_> :nod:
<DocScrutinizer05> but to start, just see how far we get without tackling the blob issue
<freemangordon_> DocScrutinizer05: maybe create some UR doc, to have a common base to discuss on
<DocScrutinizer05> blob integration is phase2
<DocScrutinizer05> hmm, I'm terrible at producing such docs. I can help
<DocScrutinizer05> when you write up a draft, I'll proofread and edit it
<freemangordon_> I am terrible on docs as well, maybe ask you PR department :P
<DocScrutinizer05> if only we had one
<DocScrutinizer05> anyway the background is: our customers don't feel confortable with the "pick the OS of your choice", they want us to provide something
<DocScrutinizer05> so we need something to show off
<freemangordon_> ok
<DocScrutinizer05> with the perspective to actually provide that thing later on
<DocScrutinizer05> Neo900 UG supports but isn't directly involved in development
<freemangordon_> ok, will think about how and if I can help
<freemangordon_> gtg now, cya
<DocScrutinizer05> thanks a lot. We really need you (and pali, I guess)
<DocScrutinizer05> cya
<DocScrutinizer05> gotta go too
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<jackhill> If I don't want to use non-free blobs, will the Neo900 work without them or are they manditory
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<DocScrutinizer51> they are supposed to be optional
<jackhill> cool, thanks
<DocScrutinizer51> however for some functions you'll need blobs, e.g opengl-es 3D acceleration, WLAN
<DocScrutinizer51> SHR for example works without
<DocScrutinizer51> for WLAN we don't have a executable but some initialization data to send to the subsystem, so this doesn't really qualify for the "closed blob" thing
<DocScrutinizer51> see our FAQ
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<DocScrutinizer05> copy from our internal channel: >> werner [not almesberger] says LEDs are D65 6500 kelvin, but he will check with a meter <<
<wpwrak> (c) kewl. there is a 6500 K version, with the same CRI as the 5700 K version i currently have.
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* enyc likes 5300k ;p
<enyc> due to availability of 'new old stock' Tridonic ECO dimmable ballasts, I put in Philips Graphica Pro lamps in one of my workrooms =)
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<enyc> 98CRI =)
* enyc really interested to know, how you would go about sourcing reasonable quality/consistency (but not silly expensive) 12v (or 24v) led strip, 3528 leds or 5050 leds... i.e. not individual leds but 'tape'/strip
<enyc> you can get the stucff ''cheap'' but theres no consistency =(
<DocScrutinizer05> yep
<enyc> so, what *approach* to trying to get consistency at reasonable price with decent part spec ??
<DocScrutinizer05> nfc
<DocScrutinizer05> get a bin directly from manufacturer
<DocScrutinizer05> odds are you can get a reel with LEDs of one bin, which would be only a maybe 2500 components
<DocScrutinizer05> unbinned crap is cheaper of course
<DocScrutinizer05> no idea how the differences inb one production run emerge
<DocScrutinizer05> but good brand manufs do decent binning anyway
<DocScrutinizer05> of course binning costs extra
<DocScrutinizer05> aka premium
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<enyc> i see
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<enyc> ok thankyou
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<DocScrutinizer05> some guy ordered a iirc 450W LED beamer with Phillips LEDs for automotive. Funny enough the whole bar only drew 10A @ 12V
<DocScrutinizer05> china-lumen, china-watts
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<wpwrak> "Watt equivalent" ;-)
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